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namDa65

Member
Dec 27, 2017
5
Not sure if this is nostalgia, but on Chapter 14 of the evil within 2. Feels like the Evil Within 1 had much more memorable set pieces, moments and settings. Evil Within 2 open world was definitely the highlight.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,848
I bought TEW2 after loving 1 and am on chapter 3. I got told that nightmare difficulty is the equivalent of survival in TEW2 but that seems definitely not true. The zombies are fearless and they don't get stuck in their animation very long, some are even trying to feint you. Also I did the mistake of entering the church, I was definitely not ready to face them.

Crazy how the difficulty ramps up, I almost had no issue in TEW1, but I'm up for the challenge. I really have to increase sneak speed though, so slow
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,848
I pretty much "cleared" the first hub and yeah nightmare difficulty is a step-up for me. I never ran out of ammo in TEW1 but in TEW2 I think it's a little bit overkill. The game gave me two pouches to hold 26 handgun ammo but I'm sure I never had more than 10 on me at all times. Scavenging the corpses resonance points only gives me like 1 shotgun shell for my trouble.

It's weird because seeing survival footage and people gets an absurd amount of ammo instead, which is also not something I want, lol. I'll keep on nightmare for now but with the respawn wave I know I won't be able to fight any of them, might be time to move on the next area and come back later.
 

Elodes

Looks to the Moon
Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,231
The Netherlands
I pretty much "cleared" the first hub and yeah nightmare difficulty is a step-up for me. I never ran out of ammo in TEW1 but in TEW2 I think it's a little bit overkill. The game gave me two pouches to hold 26 handgun ammo but I'm sure I never had more than 10 on me at all times. Scavenging the corpses resonance points only gives me like 1 shotgun shell for my trouble.

It's weird because seeing survival footage and people gets an absurd amount of ammo instead, which is also not something I want, lol. I'll keep on nightmare for now but with the respawn wave I know I won't be able to fight any of them, might be time to move on the next area and come back later.
For what it's worth, I changed my difficulty to survival after getting scared by the ammo scarcity of ch3 on nightmare, but the rest of the game was very easy, and I definitely regretted it. I've since heard that the difficulty of nightmare drops down quite a bit after ch3, so I recommend you keep at it for a while longer ;-)
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,101
I pretty much "cleared" the first hub and yeah nightmare difficulty is a step-up for me. I never ran out of ammo in TEW1 but in TEW2 I think it's a little bit overkill. The game gave me two pouches to hold 26 handgun ammo but I'm sure I never had more than 10 on me at all times. Scavenging the corpses resonance points only gives me like 1 shotgun shell for my trouble.

It's weird because seeing survival footage and people gets an absurd amount of ammo instead, which is also not something I want, lol. I'll keep on nightmare for now but with the respawn wave I know I won't be able to fight any of them, might be time to move on the next area and come back later.

For what it's worth, I changed my difficulty to survival after getting scared by the ammo scarcity of ch3 on nightmare, but the rest of the game was very easy, and I definitely regretted it. I've since heard that the difficulty of nightmare drops down quite a bit after ch3, so I recommend you keep at it for a while longer ;-)

In my case, the first blind playtrough in Nightmare was with the just amount of ammo, more or less the full game. Usually I would work my way stealthy whenever possible, but some times I was discovered and then I had enough ammo to fight the enemies. I think the game specially at the beginning is harder, but then when you improve the gel skills and the weapons, Nightmare is very balanced.
 

Menome

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,404
After getting distracted whilst clearing Chapter 3 back in October, I've gone back to the game this past week and I'm now up to Chapter 11. I may have said it earlier in the thread, but I am enjoying this so, so much more than the original game. Whereas the first game felt like flinging disjointed scenarios and monsters at a wall and seeing what stuck, there's a noticeable through-line here so that even when things take a turn, it still feels thematically tied-together.
 

yume_2501

Member
Oct 28, 2017
40
They Just added a First Person mode with today patch on PS4. I haven t play the game yet now i don t know if i ll play in 3rd or 1st person... very tempted to play It in 1st person
 

MrH

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,995
So shit, this game is actually hard. I completed it on easy and it was very fun, I had plenty of ammo, did shit tons of damage and could basically He-Man every encounter, but with FPP being added I've started a new run on normal and it's tough, I have no ammo and enemies kill my ass fast. What would you guys suggest build wise early game, to get me going a bit?
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,848
So shit, this game is actually hard. I completed it on easy and it was very fun, I had plenty of ammo, did shit tons of damage and could basically He-Man every encounter, but with FPP being added I've started a new run on normal and it's tough, I have no ammo and enemies kill my ass fast. What would you guys suggest build wise early game, to get me going a bit?

health upgrades if you can handle gun kickback recoil, crouch speed for more efficient sneak kills. Handgun is always going to be your friend, crossbow is going to be your guardian angel in case things are way too sour or it's not worth it to waste handgun ammos.

In my case, the first blind playtrough in Nightmare was with the just amount of ammo, more or less the full game. Usually I would work my way stealthy whenever possible, but some times I was discovered and then I had enough ammo to fight the enemies. I think the game specially at the beginning is harder, but then when you improve the gel skills and the weapons, Nightmare is very balanced.

Chapter 3 destroyed me, but it actually got a little bit better after. I think my main issue with this game is that aiming with a controller is just bad, it's all over the place.
 

Shoshi

Banned
Jan 9, 2018
1,661
The Evil Within (TEW) VS The Evil Within 2 (TEW2): A Comparison

Positive +

TEW
+ Huge replay value

+ A lot of details/destroyable bottles etc. and all detail makes it hard to spot traps

+ On Nightmare (Hard) you get different stage designs which makes it worth replaying although the sadistic difficulty and your need to take advice from Youtube.

+ Good art-direction

TEW2
+ Better framerate and PS4 Pro patch

+ The RE4-homage
Hidden content
You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.
Negative -
TEW

- No Mercenaries Mode

- A lot of details/destroyable bottles etc. which makes the game engine struggling (unstable FPS)

- The pacing is not perfect. The end of the game feels kind of rushed with lots of corridors

- Sadistically difficult above Survival (I will probably never play it on Akumu)

TEW2
- No Mercenaries Mode

- Still graphical pop-ups in cutscenes.

- Camera-movement feels more nauseating even though you move more smoothly.
You move unnaturally smooth and your feet 'moonwalks' when turning around manually.
Quick 180-turns is nice but feels a bit cheap and removes the horror factor.

- Easy to escape in bushes á la Assassin's Creed.

- Cars, vans, and more endless cars – you can jump up on them for no reason at all (you will be stun-locked anyway) and honk their horn.

- The remade character design (see the flamethrower boss design etc. in TEW Official Art Book) is boring and all in all kind of non-cosplayable characters compared to TEW.

- Bad dialogue - very short and boring script.
Very difficult to fall into the story and feel for your character compared to TEW. All focus on the Mobius-soldiers felt rushed – if they should introduce them, they should have given them more story and playable side-stories (DLC)?

- Art Direction as a whole = bad immersion, looks like a very cheap rushed game. Safe boring character design. Action-oriented menu-design. Resident Evil Revelations-ish style on environments. Why a map?

- Doesn't feel like being in Stem but at a cheap movie set or watching a short Amazon/NETFLIX-series where the main characters are supposed to look tv-serie-sexy and all that riddicculous sexy tv-series-opening-like effects on dying people floating in a bubble and all red light effects in hallways and stuff. Everything screams "We want this game to be a NETFLIX-drama!". And that goes far away from my arcade-idea of a Shinji Mikami-game.

- No artsy psychedelic craziness

- No tongue-in-cheek humour

- Not as scary as TEW

- Uninteresting, few and short bosses

- The pacing. Bad back-tracking and re-use of stages.

- No traps

- Too easy (even Nightmare/Hard difficulty was not too hard)

- Being able to shoot while crouched makes it too easy compared to TEW where you sometimes needed to solve stages by not being able to shoot

- You becomes OP too fast with the upgrades Bottle Brake and Ambush. The skill tree is boring with few upgrades which almost all is reachable on one play through.

- There is too much green gel in TEW2 too – too easy getting that good stuff.

- Coffee Machine – reloads too fast. If you fail you can also take retreat to at least two coffee machines.

- On Nightmare you can get problem with ammo shortage. But since there is 4 types of boring handguns and 3 shotguns with each on coming with a full cartridge – you can always alternate between them. However, this is very irritating since it's easy to reload a handgun by mistake. It's thankful that time stops when you alter weapons so you can carefully strategize so you use the right weapon at the right time ((if you not press reload or if your character reloads automatically ((happens sometimes)).

- Time stopping when opening the menu. Takes away the scariness.

- Healing items are too many. I almost never made a single healing item.

- Episode 3: is when the game really starts, but it feels so bad. I lost all interest when it went Silent Hill/Assassin's Creed/Last of Us-open world. And why did they call it episode 3?Because all episodes before that are just walking simulators? Here you get access to 2,5 weapons if remember correctly. It feels like too fast. This episode also has too much focus on stealth and after killing all enemies on the screen you get bored of the game, and that's it. Episode 3 should have been shorter so you don't loose the pace. I hope TEW3 throw the open world out of the office and go back to better directed stages which are more interesting to go back to compared to an open world game which you never want to play again.

- Too many weapons that doesn't make any sense. The lazer sight handgun is irritating – it has OP stability but too much zoom which makes it useless except for shooting range where I tried to swap for it when targets are very far away – but in the end I just used the revolver even there too I think.

- You don't know which gun makes the most damage but the revolver from TEW makes a reappearance and is suddenly more powerful than the other standard guns?! But in TEW it wasn't so strong.

- The icons for the handguns are hard to differ.

- The bad AI of the enemies. You are encouraged to play the game all out stealth since the enemies are to fast to shoot if they spot you shooting but forgets easily and go back to their route and sometimes just stand staring at a wall if you go and hide in one of the many bushes. The flashlight doesn't make any difference if its on or off like in TEW where you are more easily spotted if it's on.

- Compared to TEW it's very hard to throw a bottle and sneak kill them that way. It's more easy to get behind them – something which was much harder to pull off in TEW where the enemies constantly turned their heads left to right and could spot you in the corner of their eyes.

- As someone said:" it's kind of bullshit that throwing a bottle next to ones lying down won't wake them up but they get triggered if you pick something up next to them."

- The combination of semi-open-world where you sometimes travel between small areas by using a teleporting computer adds very bad pacing to the game. And all the maps. All the maps takes away the scariness. It feels like the outline-ideas of a game concept. Like "Ok here Mr/Ms Director, we have a map of this and this stage and you can travel between stages by this computer – please choose the areas you like and use this tool to direct good stages." The maps and stage-layout feels like a bad Hollywood Stage you have created yourself in Gary's Mod.

- There is like not any cutscenes at all. And one of them has very bizarrely pre-rendered high graphics (e.g 'The Fire-walk with Hoffman' and still look like an early PS3 game) for no reason at all. The Cutscenes are simple engine-rendered with poorly stiff characters as in Fallout 3.

- Sometimes you don't have access to the map and the" walkie-talkie" - confusing. Seems like they were discussing" should we have the map and walkie-talkie or not"?

- The games doesn't feel generation PS4/XBONE but more like PS3 Last of Us.

- The 'Cabin in the woods' á la RE4 could have been good if they had designed that stage better. But the following passage walk in the woods is horrible and reminds me alot of RE: Revelations 2. And the loading screens is bizarre where Sebastian looks like a completely different character.

- Personally I missed out on the 'scary ghost sounds through the control speakers'-thing so I can't comment on that, but since I almost always play with in-earphones, I wouldn't notice it. (I personally think the control-speakers is the most useless thing with DS4.

- The ending was bad.

- The representation of women in this game was bad. The women are the poor sacrificing losers.

- You put a very interesting summary statistic screen accessible from within the game, BUT…. You don't get access to it after you complete the game (aka Death Tally). No summary of statistics after you completed the game… !?


Ideas for The Evil Within 3 (spoilers!)
Characters: Ruvik in Leslie's body makes reappearance. The religious father of Ruben/Ruvik?
Joseph Oda. Lily has grown up to be the playable girl from Last of Us.
The hacker guy from TEW2 who escaped?

Being able to play Myra's story when she was looking for Lily?

Stem has gone mobile into a mobile-app dragging lots of people into its terror?

Each stage could look completely different from the other when Stem reaches all over the world.

The hard part is to choose stages with a scary setting/give non-scarry places a scary setting (this could be done by enemy-design, music, difficulty). IT IS OK TO HAVE STAGES IN SUNNY SETTING!
Chapter 6: Losing Grip on Ourselves from TEW1 is one of my favourite chapters -_^

I would have preferred that they went with TEW's linear style with intensive stages which are well-composed and intensive and where you feel an urge to replay everything again since you long after a couple of those unforgettable stages.

And please add that Mercenaries Mode will you?

-----------------------
Feel free to discuss :)
 
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MrH

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,995
health upgrades if you can handle gun kickback recoil, crouch speed for more efficient sneak kills. Handgun is always going to be your friend, crossbow is going to be your guardian angel in case things are way too sour or it's not worth it to waste handgun ammos.

I'm using KB+M so aiming isn't an issue, I can definitely see the sneaking speed be useful now, I never sneaked on easy, and I'm actually using the bottles to distract now. It's like a totally different game and I think FPP is better for this type of slow/stealthy approach, it just feels more intense and scary.
 

MrH

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
3,995
Does the talent that increases melee damage work on stealth kills? Some mobs don't die from it now.
 

Lidl

Member
Dec 12, 2017
2,568
I'm playing on nightmare and find myself constantly running out of bullets (gunpowder).
It's just incredibly tedious to constantly reload encounters in order to redo them with using as few resources as possible.
Now I opened chapter 4 and the game introduced those spider thingies. I feel a bit overwhelmed :(
Any tips?

I'm already farming all enemies, even those 'asleep', but I invested a lot into brawling and it did fuck all to help to save ammo. Seems like it's bad stat to improve on nightmare.

Edit: Oh and my weapon parts went into improving critical damage on the handgun, still I need at least 2 to 4 shots take out a regular zombies.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,848
I'm playing on nightmare and find myself constantly running out of bullets (gunpowder).
It's just incredibly tedious to constantly reload encounters in order to redo them with using as few resources as possible.
Now I opened chapter 4 and the game introduced those spider thingies. I feel a bit overwhelmed :(
Any tips?

I'm already farming all enemies, even those 'asleep', but I invested a lot into brawling and it did fuck all to help to save ammo. Seems like it's bad stat to improve on nightmare.

Edit: Oh and my weapon parts went into improving critical damage on the handgun, still I need at least 2 to 4 shots take out a regular zombies.

It'll get better in a few hours. Use your crossbow if you have to because it can sometimes save a lot of bullet, shotguns can also stagger several enemies with one shot for you to stomp them. Focus on sneaking perks like sneaking speed, and harpoon bolts are actually very good to upgrade, and relatively easy to come by. You can kill the lady with the knife iwth one bolt and one sneak knife hit.
 

Lidl

Member
Dec 12, 2017
2,568
It'll get better in a few hours. Use your crossbow if you have to because it can sometimes save a lot of bullet, shotguns can also stagger several enemies with one shot for you to stomp them. Focus on sneaking perks like sneaking speed, and harpoon bolts are actually very good to upgrade, and relatively easy to come by. You can kill the lady with the knife iwth one bolt and one sneak knife hit.
Thank you! I'll go for the upgrades you suggested.
Also I can't believe I overlooked the fact that harpoons don't cost any gunpowder.

I may survive now :)
 

JK-Money

Attempt to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,558
Just finished the game as I type this HOLY FUCK, those last few chapters damn were they good and love the flow between the two specific characters in the end. Paced very very well, loved it so much!!! Deff one of my fav games this generation, always a huge step up was the story.
 

JK-Money

Attempt to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,558
So I assume if they do a part 3 they will

Have Kidman explain maybe what happened to Joseph, it was odd that they brought it up in this game but never expand or touch on it. Maybe he is the reason STEM came back up and the main antagonist was actually his right hand man?
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,101
Just finished the game as I type this HOLY FUCK, those last few chapters damn were they good and love the flow between the two specific characters in the end. Paced very very well, loved it so much!!! Deff one of my fav games this generation, always a huge step up was the story.

Yep, I've already enjoyed the game a lot, but that final part was honestly amazing
The art, the pace of the final section, and the final dialoges between Sebastian and Myra are very good
 
Oct 29, 2017
1,494
Just finished this .I loved it start to finish. Final boss was a bit annoying as I'd wasted most of my ammo on the encounters leading up to it .definitely didn't have the same scare factor as the first one but it was still tense.
 

derFeef

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,355
Austria
I dropped of this game pretty hard sadly. I just continued and tried out the first person mode. I might prefer it I think. Is there any downside to it actually?
Also damn those crawly things, I can't handle 4 of them with hardly any ammo, come on :( (CH3)
 

swazzyswess

Member
Mar 26, 2018
51
Just finished. I genuinely grew to hate this game. The dialogue is so stock and cliche-filled that it seems like they used filler/placeholder dialogue and forgot to go back and edit it and punch it up. Nothing rang true, especially when combined with the flat, tonally inappropriate voice acting. The Mobius team members were particularly awful in that regard.

The open world was a wasted opportunity. I loved the idea of weighing the costs/benefits of pursuing side quests when there's a chance you could encounter something horrific, but they rarely used that dynamic at all. Most of the side quests were just finding resources on dead bodies, with the exception of singing scary lady.

The gunplay and movement somehow seem worse than EW1. Just maneuvering around while evading enemies was a tedious pain in the ass, especially the fast crawling enemies.

The bosses and villains were also woefully misused. The game has a somewhat novel and interesting villain, one that is responsible for most of the creepy atmosphere early on, and then it's replaced by a villain who is laughable in every respect: appearance, voice acting (what's with the dumb affectation/accent?), dialogue, and most importantly, total lack of menace and danger. Oh yeah, and the retread bosses? That would have acceptable early on, but late in the game, it just speaks to the lack of creativity on display throughout much of the game.

TW1 was flawed for sure, especially the shooting gallery levels (which TW2 has more of), but it was unique and had a ton of variety and I would argue an actual vision. TW2 has a bunch of half ideas and can't commit to developing any of them. I'm surprised by how disappointed I am in it; I love survival horror, but I had to force myself to finish this. A pretty generous 5.5/10 for me.

Whereas the first game felt like flinging disjointed scenarios and monsters at a wall and seeing what stuck, there's a noticeable through-line here so that even when things take a turn, it still feels thematically tied-together.

And that through-line? Sebastian repeating over and over and over and over again that he needs to find Lily, he has to get to Lily, he loves Lily and needs to protect her, and most importantly.... WHERE IS LILY?!
 
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Oct 25, 2017
14,741
Just started playing this game, I am in chapter 3 and loving it. I don't know, it is giving me the last of us vibes
Enjoy! Amazing game, I keep thinking about it and wanting to come back, even though I've played it for almost 50 hours already.

It does have some The Last of Us vibes, but it's mostly in the first few chapters, it gets pretty wild later on.
 

Booker.DeWitt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,844
Enjoy! Amazing game, I keep thinking about it and wanting to come back, even though I've played it for almost 50 hours already.

It does have some The Last of Us vibes, but it's mostly in the first few chapters, it gets pretty wild later on.
TEW 1/2 are a much more unique, batshit crazy, less polished but better TLOU imo


nice.

One thing that I have noticed is the lack of ammunition and health items. damn it, I am constant running out of ammo. will that get better is the game goes one?

Also, I am feeling a bit overwhelmed about the side missions, the "rogue signals". I don't know if I should do all of them, or just some of them. I know some of the side missions will give nice items (I just got a sawed off shotgun), so I am afraid that If I don't do all the side missions, the game will be really hard to beat since there is a lack of ammo. What was your approach?

ps: the game looks gorgeous on the xbox one X and OLED TV
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,741
nice.

One thing that I have noticed is the lack of ammunition and health items. damn it, I am constant running out of ammo. will that get better is the game goes one?

Also, I am feeling a bit overwhelmed about the side missions, the "rogue signals". I don't know if I should do all of them, or just some of them. I know some of the side missions will give nice items (I just got a sawed off shotgun), so I am afraid that If I don't do all the side missions, the game will be really hard to beat since there is a lack of ammo. What was your approach?

ps: the game looks gorgeous on the xbox one X and OLED TV
The game gets more linear as you progress, so I'd say to do everything, you don't really have to worry about getting burned out on exploration.

Ammo never gets to the point where it feels like you'll never run out, but you do get to a point where you won't really have to worry about not being able to clear out the enemies in a certain stage.
 

Dreamboum

Member
Oct 28, 2017
22,848
nice.

One thing that I have noticed is the lack of ammunition and health items. damn it, I am constant running out of ammo. will that get better is the game goes one?

Also, I am feeling a bit overwhelmed about the side missions, the "rogue signals". I don't know if I should do all of them, or just some of them. I know some of the side missions will give nice items (I just got a sawed off shotgun), so I am afraid that If I don't do all the side missions, the game will be really hard to beat since there is a lack of ammo. What was your approach?

ps: the game looks gorgeous on the xbox one X and OLED TV

Are you playing on nightmare ? It does get better. Chapter 3 gets really rough
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
If you explore every nook and cranny and also use the crafting system, even on nightmare ammo shouldn't be an issue soon.

I was actually disappointed at how easy the game was on nightmare.
 

Markitron

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,510
Ireland
I am playing on the regular difficulty.
The game starts off really difficult and gets progressively easier as you get more and more upgrades. IMO the biggest problem with the game is that the pacing is all over the place, chapter 3 is really slow and tense, but then it gets linear and speeds up before slowing down and speeding up again.

Just focus on sneaking around and scrounging for items and ammunition. Stealth kill as many enemies as possible. Remember you can craft syringes while away from the workbench with no penalty, whereas crafting ammo will cost you double this way.
 

SevketErhat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
355
North Cyprus
I am playing new game plus on easy and have not died a single time whereas I died like 250'times on my first playthrough in the first game. Best part was the return of bosses from the first game if you ask me.
 

Curufinwe

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,924
DE
They wrapped up the story pretty well.

Sebastian literally goes thru hell to save his daughter, then drives away in a van without bothering to put her seatbelt on.
 

psychedelic

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,317
It's even more crazy to me now that they didn't announce a DLC for this game. Is it such a stretch to think that, during Resident Evil 2's showing at E3, someone from Bethesda's production team might be watching it and wondering why they didn't talk about their own third-person horror franchise, knowing that that type of game isn't commonly made anymore? I imagine it could have sold properly too leading up to Resident Evil 2's release.
 

psychedelic

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,317
According to Metacritic, The Evil Within 2 is currently the 9th best user scored game of all time across all platforms. This might not mean much to many people, but I believe it's a remarkable achievement which is at least worth consideration.
The game does have it's flaws, but it seems to be loved by most people who have played it. I am sure Bethesda must be aware of this to some extent.

e7GGTBz.jpg


It's also on number 9 for PS4:

SoAO1Jf.jpg
 

Bonefish

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,694
Has there been any kind of recent promotion with this game and Xbox? Because...uhhh, I was browsing through my library on Xbox One to download a game I own, and I found The Evil Within 2 there, ready to be downloaded.

I don't understand lol. I never bought this game on Xbox. I actually went out and bought it on PS4 a few weeks ago. Unless I was piss drunk coming home one night and decided that I had to buy this game on Xbox before going to sleep?

edit: derp, it's a trial? wonder why it was already in my library
 
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Dusk Golem

Local Horror Enthusiast
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,804
I've played for 10h and I'm only in the middle of chapter 6. How long is this game? 25h?

This really depends on how long you decide to do some stuff, like I only got to Chapter 4 about 12 hours into the game as I really went and explored Chapter 2 & 3.

Without any further spoilers, and the chapters do vary in length quite a bit, but if you're curious of the chapter number, the game has
17
chapters. However, I think if you're an exploratory type, Chapters 3 & 7 are the two you'll be spending a lot of time in, 3 more than 7 (but can still spend a few hours in Chapter 7 certainly).