The Flash S5 |OT| The Bitchin' House of Ls

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
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Oct 25, 2017
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We've barely seen him interact with Barry. He should ditch the Wells persona and start showing up as Eomatt.
Letscher might be busy. Either that or just Tom has that much pull with the writers (which seems likely considering from the sounds of it, he comes up with the new Wells personas himself)
 
Oct 30, 2017
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Honestly, I'm happy with Cavanagh having a lot of sway. I'm not a fan of his propensity for weirdly-accented stereotypes, but he otherwise single-handledly elevates the show quite a bit.
 

Joni

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Oct 27, 2017
2,806
Mmm. Wholeheartedly disagree. Matt doesn't hold a candle to Tom Cavanagh
As an actor, sure. When it comes to the emotional pull of Eobard Wells in the first season, absolutely. But when it comes to portraying the rage, insanity of an older defeated Wells, no. Flashpoint Eobard is a lot more intriguing than repeat Eobard Wells. Barry showing up, him realizing he keeps failing, never does really change him. Never brings something new forward in the character. He plays him bored.



It might be the endless parade of Wells that makes these repeats uninteresting. Maybe it is because Harry did the pained Wells better than Eobard Wells does it.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
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Oct 25, 2017
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Honestly, I'm happy with Cavanagh having a lot of sway. I'm not a fan of his propensity for weirdly-accented stereotypes, but he otherwise single-handledly elevates the show quite a bit.
He's probably the most consistently talented actor in the main cast. Jesse Martin would be, but there's a fair number of episodes where you can tell Martin's running on fumes or just not feeling the material he's been given. When he's on, he's bloody on, but he's not always on.
 

PlanetSmasher

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Oct 25, 2017
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Hard no from me. I love Matt's Thawne, and think he's the best antagonist on the show.
I don't know. Matt's version of the character is pure evil - he's good at that element of the character but he doesn't really play a Thawne who knows and, in spite of himself, cares about Team Flash even as he tries to fuck them over.

The "you've been dead for centuries" scene wouldn't work with Matt.
 
Nov 1, 2017
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I don't know. Matt's version of the character is pure evil - he's good at that element of the character but he doesn't really play a Thawne who knows and, in spite of himself, cares about Team Flash even as he tries to fuck them over.

The "you've been dead for centuries" scene wouldn't work with Matt.
That's largely contextual, though. Matt's Thawne has always been a pre-Team Flash version, so he has no reason to care about any of them (yet).
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
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Oct 25, 2017
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That's largely contextual, though. Matt's Thawne has always been a pre-Team Flash version, so he has no reason to care about any of them (yet).
Which is why the Legends Thawne is so confusing because he mentions working with the STAR Labs team on at least two occasions during his Legion of Doom run.
 
Nov 1, 2017
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Which is why the Legends Thawne is so confusing because he mentions working with the STAR Labs team on at least two occasions during his Legion of Doom run.
As much as I enjoyed that story, I think it's problematic for the timeline of The Flash anyway, so it's best not to think too hard about it.
 

Slayven

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Oct 25, 2017
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I think every arrowverse big picture villain should get a do over in Legends. Merlym, Thawne, and Darhk were hamming it up good that season
 
Oct 30, 2017
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Canada
They're Mike and Joel, or Kirk and Picard. Both good, but in different ways.

I prefer Cavanagh Thawne right now, because he reminded me how much I love it when you can't tell which way he's going to go. When he's on, he's on. In his scenes you can really get a sense for how dispassionate and cruel he is with his hate, but there's also an infinitesimal tinge of genuine compassion for Team Flash, or at least enough disdain that leads to him not feeling the need to overtly destroy them at any time. You can see him constantly weighing the situation and his options and the outcomes.

Every conversation sits on a knife-edge where he can either lash out and suddenly do untold damage, or just calmly hang out with them and berate them because, eh, what the hell does he care? It's great.
 

PlanetSmasher

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Oct 25, 2017
19,091
They're Mike and Joel, or Kirk and Picard. Both good, but in different ways.

I prefer Cavanagh Thawne right now, because he reminded me how much I love it when you can't tell which way he's going to go. When he's on, he's on. In his scenes you can really get a sense for how dispassionate and cruel he is with his hate, but there's also an infinitesimal tinge of genuine compassion for Team Flash, or at least enough disdain that leads to him not feeling the need to overtly destroy them at any time. You can see him constantly weighing the situation and his options and the outcomes.

Every conversation sits on a knife-edge where he can either lash out and suddenly do untold damage, or just calmly hang out with them and berate them because, eh, what the hell does he care? It's great.
Exactly how I feel. Letscher Thawne has no attachment to any of them beyond his outright disdain for Barry as a person, whereas Wellsobard is just enough of a human that he becomes almost totally unpredictable. There's actual chemistry between him and the cast, and all of his interactions with Cait, Cisco and Barry are colored by that.

I love Letscher's take, but I think he fits way better in Legends where he has no connection to any of the primary characters and just shits on them constantly because he's better than they are and he doesn't care.
 

PlanetSmasher

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Oct 25, 2017
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I don't even know why Eobard hates Barry so much. Hope we get some insight into his... past (?) after the break.
Eobard lost his mind when he realized that he was destined to be Barry's greatest nemesis. Instead of trying to fight against that fate he just leaned directly into it. And Original Timeline Barry is way better at being the Flash than our Barry is, so I imagine Eobard lost a bunch of those fights. It's pretty natural that it would evolve into hatred eventually.
 

Keym

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Oct 26, 2017
3,912
Eobard lost his mind when he realized that he was destined to be Barry's greatest nemesis. Instead of trying to fight against that fate he just leaned directly into it. And Original Timeline Barry is way better at being the Flash than our Barry is, so I imagine Eobard lost a bunch of those fights. It's pretty natural that it would evolve into hatred eventually.
I'd like to see some of that on screen for a change. I can't imagine what OT Barry could be like after spending so many years with our Barry.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
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Oct 25, 2017
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I think the clever girl thing is misdirection. Every season we keep thinking that the new Wells is secretly a villain all along and every season we're wrong. It just doesn't make sense for the writers to play that card again.
 

Keym

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Oct 26, 2017
3,912
I think the clever girl thing is misdirection. Every season we keep thinking that the new Wells is secretly a villain all along and every season we're wrong. It just doesn't make sense for the writers to play that card again.
These are the same writers that used "Barry's mentor was secretly evil all along" as a plot device twice in a row. All bets are off.
 

PlanetSmasher

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Oct 25, 2017
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These are the same writers that used "Barry's mentor was secretly evil all along" as a plot device twice in a row. All bets are off.
Of course. I'm just saying they enjoy making every new Wells seem shifty and possibly evil.

Honestly, I think it's better for the story overall if Sherloque isn't Eobard, because it doesn't really make narrative sense. We keep seeing scenes between the two of them when no one else is around and there would be no reason for Eobard to pretend like that if they're working together.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,508
They're Mike and Joel, or Kirk and Picard. Both good, but in different ways.

I prefer Cavanagh Thawne right now, because he reminded me how much I love it when you can't tell which way he's going to go. When he's on, he's on. In his scenes you can really get a sense for how dispassionate and cruel he is with his hate, but there's also an infinitesimal tinge of genuine compassion for Team Flash, or at least enough disdain that leads to him not feeling the need to overtly destroy them at any time. You can see him constantly weighing the situation and his options and the outcomes.

Every conversation sits on a knife-edge where he can either lash out and suddenly do untold damage, or just calmly hang out with them and berate them because, eh, what the hell does he care? It's great.
Great analysis
I don't even know why Eobard hates Barry so much. Hope we get some insight into his... past (?) after the break.
Eobard is insane. He admits it. I don't think he needs more a reason for it. He basically says as much here
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,639
Canada
Honestly, I think it's better for the story overall if Sherloque isn't Eobard, because it doesn't really make narrative sense. We keep seeing scenes between the two of them when no one else is around and there would be no reason for Eobard to pretend like that if they're working together.
My theory now is that Sherloqueobard is earlier on Eobard's personal timeline than Jaileobard, and thus he's unaware that he sent her back because he hasn't done it yet.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
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Oct 25, 2017
19,091
My theory now is that Sherloqueobard is earlier on Eobard's personal timeline than Jaileobard, and thus he's unaware that he sent her back because he hasn't done it yet.
They could do that, but I just think it's a little too Doctor Who for this show. I think Sherloque is going to turn out to be exactly what he says he is - a skilled detective who's also just a complete and utter failure at anything resembling social interaction. Basically the anti-HR.

Remember: Sherloque had to exist long enough for Herr Wells to find out about him. Eobard is obviously no stranger to long cons, but it just seems too unbelievable that he'd spend a shitload of time on an alternate Earth building up a reputation just so that a DIFFERENT alt-Wells would find out about him and recommend him to the team.
 

Clu

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Oct 26, 2017
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The Grid
Hard no from me. I love Matt's Thawne, and think he's the best antagonist on the show.
This I agree with. Wells is still great no doubt about it, but he always has this, "I'm a step ahead of you, but you own me so much Barry I'm hurt." Matt plays it more of, "I'm the smartest mutha fucka in the room and I can kill each and everyone of you before you know anything happened." He only showed fear for black flash which makes sense but when he was on, he was ON like when he killed ray. Pulled his heart out, showed it to him, dropped it and left. Same with Rex, popped his heart and was laterzzz
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,639
Canada
Remember: Sherloque had to exist long enough for Herr Wells to find out about him. Eobard is obviously no stranger to long cons, but it just seems too unbelievable that he'd spend a shitload of time on an alternate Earth building up a reputation just so that a DIFFERENT alt-Wells would find out about him and recommend him to the team.
Sherloque doesn't need to establish himself. If Eobard can look like Sherloque, he can look like Herr Wells.

Or he can just stand off-camera, menacingly vibrating his hand.
 
I think every arrowverse big picture villain should get a do over in Legends. Merlym, Thawne, and Darhk were hamming it up good that season
The truly evil ones like Prometheus and Savitar wouldn't work. The villains that went over to Legends could all have fun with it to an extent. Can't imagine Savitar hamming it up dance-fighting to Return of the Mack or Prometheus high fiving Nate. The Legion worked so well because they're all so charming and you can kind of root for them to win.

Deathstroke would be too serious too unless they grounded the show a bit more (and who wants that?)

Bronze Tiger or Black Siren would be GREAT.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
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Oct 25, 2017
19,091
Sherloque doesn't need to establish himself. If Eobard can look like Sherloque, he can look like Herr Wells.

Or he can just stand off-camera, menacingly vibrating his hand.
I'm just saying it all feels way too convenient for a twist that everyone would just groan at.

The truly evil ones like Prometheus and Savitar wouldn't work. The villains that went over to Legends could all have fun with it to an extent. Can't imagine Savitar hamming it up dance-fighting to Return of the Mack or Prometheus high fiving Nate. The Legion worked so well because they're all so charming and you can kind of root for them to win.

Deathstroke would be too serious too unless they grounded the show a bit more (and who wants that?)

Bronze Tiger or Black Siren would be GREAT.
Serious question, because Arrow bored me to death even in season 1: was Merlyn ever actually badass? I always just kinda see Barrowman as Jack Harkness and it infuses every Merlyn appearance I've seen with a layer of meta-comedy that I just can't shake off.