this episode triggered a weirdly common disagreement between my partner and I. I absolutely do not want to live forever, because it sounds like a miserable experience. They on the other hand never want to die.
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The Good Place S4 |OT| Now You're Thinking With Bortles - Thursdays 8:30/7:30c
- Thread starter StarCreator
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It makes sense the show that tackles the biggest moral philosophies should tackle the concept of death and ceasing to exist in the final episode. It's too fitting.
The last episode is a double one and is 90 minutes long. I expect we'll see returning characters, some new members of The Good Place, and in the end how each character walks through the door and how others handle it. If we get another Eleanore says by to Chidi again scene I might not make it.
The last episode is a double one and is 90 minutes long. I expect we'll see returning characters, some new members of The Good Place, and in the end how each character walks through the door and how others handle it. If we get another Eleanore says by to Chidi again scene I might not make it.
As a man of faith (not particularly religious I suppose but my faith is still important to me) I've always assumed the afterlife to be an experience beyond the concept of time itself as opposed to infinite linear time.
OP
OP
60 minutes of air time on TV including commercial breaks. The last half hour of the block is a post-series special hosted by Seth Meyers.
Ah got it thanks.
They brought it up, that was just the torture demons would use and not solve an actual problem.
But then what's the point? If your experiences are gone, you're not really "you" anymore anyway.
I mean of the good place plus also your other option is maybe death and not death but non existence it seems what they're implying
I'm gonna miss this show so much, completely took me by surprise
Same
Same
Couldn't they just erase the memory to the point of death/entry to the good place, a giant afterlife reset hell you could combine it with the notion of a final exit. Walk through the red door and your current existence ends but you're back to the start of your heaven.
What's the point of that though? You lived until you were done, then you do it again but completely unaware you're doing it again, and again, forever.
I like their solution to the "eternity is boring" problem. While on one hand I can see them going through the door at the end, I feel like that somehow seems at odds with their whole theme about working together and friendship and how no matter what has happened, they've stuck together.
So I guess the other option is that maybe they stick around and become architects, since it's possible that whenever new people show up they would have different needs and wants and they would find joy in solving those problems together.
So I guess the other option is that maybe they stick around and become architects, since it's possible that whenever new people show up they would have different needs and wants and they would find joy in solving those problems together.
Because a final ending is well final. You could become unhappy in the good place as you knew it, but as new people are introduced to it over time and experiences change (because it's stated they pick up trends from Earth) 'you' could experience those newer things fresh without the jadedness caused by your prior heaven. So if you're talking about philosophy, it'd be the most utilitarian solution to the problem because your total happiness would be greater than the one shot until you get bored then oblivion system.
I think the solution is the best option. If people want to stay forever they can, if they get bored or are satisfied they can make the choice to end it and ultimately it's only up to them to make the choice, it's just an option. People can enjoy the good place as a reward for their lives or becoming better people and then leave when enough is enough.
I don't know how it'll end for the group but I can see their friendship being something that will keep them there. Like, I'm assuming most people going to the good place after the revamp will be there alone and while they will have eternity to make new bonds, they won't be like what the group has gone through, they won't have that growth from overcoming hardship. I think either the group (including Janet but no Michael) leave together at the end or they ascend and become architects.
My feeling on this is that it wouldn't work, it'll just lead to a loop. You get to heaven, you get everything you want and experience what you missed on Earth but then you get bored and reset to before you got to the good palce so you just want the same things, because you haven't grown. You'll just be doing the same things with different people over and over and then the whole mess of knowing someone who has been wiped and then the effects of telling them or how hard it could be seeing someone you grew close to form bonds with other people this time around while you remember everything.
The better option is the choice to end it.
I don't know how it'll end for the group but I can see their friendship being something that will keep them there. Like, I'm assuming most people going to the good place after the revamp will be there alone and while they will have eternity to make new bonds, they won't be like what the group has gone through, they won't have that growth from overcoming hardship. I think either the group (including Janet but no Michael) leave together at the end or they ascend and become architects.
My feeling on this is that it wouldn't work, it'll just lead to a loop. You get to heaven, you get everything you want and experience what you missed on Earth but then you get bored and reset to before you got to the good palce so you just want the same things, because you haven't grown. You'll just be doing the same things with different people over and over and then the whole mess of knowing someone who has been wiped and then the effects of telling them or how hard it could be seeing someone you grew close to form bonds with other people this time around while you remember everything.
The better option is the choice to end it.
But when you press reset, that accumulated happiness is erased. Your total happiness repeatedly peaks then drops back to when you originally died. Your new experiences are your only experiences.
I don't feel I need to see the characters walk into the 'grey heavens' together and die. I'd rather have a more uplifting ending than a romanticized depiction of suicide. Walking through, and Chidi and Eleanor being reborn in the next earth cycle and still meeting each other, because they were soul mates after all, would be lovely.
how is that different than the Bad Place, but with pleasant things?
Well it's your choice, which makes it completely different. But it does create complication with partners, if they want mind wipe, but the other doesn't. My solution lol, would be if people in the good place, get a challenge to work for, like they can become angels in the medium place and motivate them to become better people but they can have a break or resume at any time.
Theres billions of humans and different types of people.They become an evolved being, a guardian angel and can be content with eternity. Committing suicide, doesn't sound like the best ending to me. It's not a nice implication, even if you've think you've done everything you can with life, there has to be more opportunities than resorting to killing yourself. I hope they can throw another twist into it and a nicer message.
I think there's some inspiring messages in the show, about change and restarting. Just the characters killing themselves doesn't really celebrate that and the whole romactised excuse for suicide you describe sounds problematic to me.
This. It's basically a euthanasia door - I don't want the show ending on that
My real issue is that they didn't even try to see if adding new people to the Good Place was enough to deal with the ennui. Let it breathe for a while with a bunch of new folks coming in and see if the issue solves itself.
We are our experiences. That's what makes us individuals; that's what makes you you and that's what makes me me. Strip that away, even a part of it, and I cease to be me. Even taking away the bad experiences would reshape who I am, perhaps to the point that I am very different than what I would be with them. We need all types of experiences to grow. And what you're suggesting is an end to growth. It's just a way of prolonging existence for its own sake. People should have the right to end their existence if they want.
Yes, being with others and all of a sudden not remembering them would be a bad thing, and complicate all types of interactions in The Good Place.
There isn't a Medium Place at large. That place (as far as we have been shown) was created just for Mindy St. Claire and her specific situation (she created something that was altruistic and good enough to get into the Good Place, but lead a bad life up to that point, bad enough to deserve the Bad Place), which forced their hand in creating a Medium Place. The reworked system doesn't have room to facilitate that type of place, either. So I don't think that would work.
But I think the both of you are not factoring in that forever is a long time. In fact, it's never-ending, which is the point. How can you, as a creature bound by linear time, be able to truly comprehend what that length of time actually feels like? We honestly can't. And existentially, it makes sense that if we were to live in an existence which we knew would never end, no matter how much fun we were having, no matter how much meaning we attained, we would tire of it and eventually want our existence to end. Sure, not everyone will necessarily feel that way, and certainly not all at the same time. But I do feel it'd be an eventuality. Are you sure you're going to feel the same about your never-ending existence at your 209,646 year as you did at your 52,465? I doubt it.
I don't like speculating about plotlines in shows and movies, but what I'd surmise they will do next week is have us see hundreds, if not thousands of years go by with the crew helping to get The Good Place in good working order. Having fun, enjoying each other's time and company. And eventually, each one will feel the need to end things. They can do it all together, though I feel it'd be more realistic to do it one at a time, with maybe the exception being Chidi and Eleanor. With a more regular set of humans being allowed into The Good Place, there will be others who can help run it after a time. Michael will potentially be there, as well as Janet (though, if they really want to be bittersweet they can have them end their existence as well, maybe even before the rest of the crew). There are many possibilities, but with them setting up that option, it seems obvious they will use it.
One of the worst feelings in life is when you lose motivation and feel there's not anything left that can be achieved, I don't want our characters to feel that way and resort to suicide or 'final peace'
You can say they got all the choices to do everything in heaven, but I don't want to believe there's a limit you should put on yourself before you say it's ok now to kill youself, whether you're a normal human or live forever in the afrerlife. I want to believe there will always be something.
OP
OP
I'm sure it's not supposed to be read into this deeply, but there isn't actually a way to know how long the people in the Good Place have been there thanks to Jeremy Bearimy. You can't relate the time they've been building experiences in the afterlife to how long ago they died relative to the "present" (which is this strange ephemeral thing that we haven't been tethered to since season 3 anyway).
Speaking of Mindy: did she get pulled out to end up part of the new system or is she still there with Derek? How long had she been there again?
Speaking of Mindy: did she get pulled out to end up part of the new system or is she still there with Derek? How long had she been there again?
The show has often been about the ability to change, giving up because you think you've done everything you're capable of, doesn't suit that message IMO. You can say "well everyone would lose the will eventually" no thanks, applying limits to yourself is not celebrating your ability to change and evolve.
I think you're missing the point here. Eventually anyone is going to just be sick of existing. After a thousand years, million years, a billion years...... it's ETERNITY. You're thinking on human terms, but the show is talking about forever. This is not like committing suicide as a human on earth.
I'm thinking of the point of the show, which has been about stating over again and changing. And yes, I think you're meant to get something human out of every story. And simply put, the characters deciding they've had enough, let's end our existence. does not sound like an entertaining ending,
I'm a little disappointing the thread is getting hung up on the connotations of suicide.
It's about an understanding, appreciation and acceptance that everything ends. THAT's the last big philosophical leap - can you be at peace with the knowledge that every part of existence - the physical, the emotional, the mental, all culture, all of our passion, our world, the stars, the universe, time, even possibly the spiritual - is finite and has to end.
Maybe the finale will have a "the end is just the start to another type of journey" message to it - we'll have to wait and see. But that's a bit of a cheat. I'll be much more interested if the showrunners ask if you're ok with the concept of oblivion - because that's some heavy shit, and it's something that should be honestly addressed more often.
It's about an understanding, appreciation and acceptance that everything ends. THAT's the last big philosophical leap - can you be at peace with the knowledge that every part of existence - the physical, the emotional, the mental, all culture, all of our passion, our world, the stars, the universe, time, even possibly the spiritual - is finite and has to end.
Maybe the finale will have a "the end is just the start to another type of journey" message to it - we'll have to wait and see. But that's a bit of a cheat. I'll be much more interested if the showrunners ask if you're ok with the concept of oblivion - because that's some heavy shit, and it's something that should be honestly addressed more often.
This latest episode honestly made me tear up a little.
I honestly see the gang becoming a part of the new Good Place committee. I don't think Michael can handle it all himself. Plus, there were 6 members originally and they can be the new 6. It seems fitting.
I honestly see the gang becoming a part of the new Good Place committee. I don't think Michael can handle it all himself. Plus, there were 6 members originally and they can be the new 6. It seems fitting.
I can appreciate that life can't go on forever, on its own... but I don't like it that once you're bored, it's ok to end it. I don't find that very hopeful, they can say it's "peace", but I don't agree, it looks like giving up.
One reason it rubs me the wrong way too is because you have an architect who can reshape existence to keep them motivated and to keep them constructive. It just sounds like they'll be using a questionable depiction of the concept of eternity, and then using that story to glamorise suicide. Whether that's their intention or not, I would find it unsatisfying.
Can I just say that I find the moral discussions about their solution on this page to be absolutely fascinating?
I say this as a person who, if I ever found myself in a paradise, couldn't see myself ever wanting to leave. Particularly if I were there with friends and family.
I say this as a person who, if I ever found myself in a paradise, couldn't see myself ever wanting to leave. Particularly if I were there with friends and family.
I wouldn't want paradise, it does indeed sound boring. But I wouldn't want a world with so little challenge and motivation that I need a big suicide door in it to remind me it's ok to end it. It also sounds a bit cruel that if your partner chooses the door, and you don't want to, but then do so because of grief. If your friends keep entering the door, you might be so sad, that you don't even choose it because you're content.
Bingo.
But it's never framed as boredom, it's framed as once at peace. Plus the mere existence of said door gives meaning to the afterlife again. "I don't want them to get bored and commit suicide" is such a narrow view of what the show is trying to discuss. Is it dark? Yes. But we all have to face the end in some way.
There in might be the final plot point, that even this is punishment for others.
The thing is, eternity is a really long time. Somewhere in the region of 100 billion people have ever lived. If we attach a fairly arbitrary average life expectancy of 50 years per person, you could spend 5 trillion years reliving the life of everyone who's ever existed. Pick your favourite activities from that knowledge and spend a few million years trying them out. Finish that and you've still got eternity left to go :D
Perhaps everyone is in their own personal good place, so while your friends and family are indistinguishable to you from the 'real' versions, they'd never opt to leave you?
Michael says when you've seen everything you want to see, walk through the door. That means once you've done everything you're capable of coming up with, you have no further motivation and you're bored of your existence. They can frame it as a nice choice, but is it? Janet says they don't know exactly what will happen when they walk through it, so hopefully it's just not choosing to end yourself, like reincarnate into a guiding voice or Janet uses her memories of you and passes them into the earth mainframe whatever.
Sounds like they're against memory manipulation in the good place so I don't think they would give you a fake version of your partner either. You provide a service to everyone to end their lives or existence and that would have repercussions on the minds of the people who remain. Like if Jason has enough and he lost interest quickly, and Janet his girlfriend being like a AI, breaks down because her programming is too confused to know whether she can remain or join him.
Wow, this really is going in the direction of [tv episode I'm not going to mention because spoilers].
And honestly, I don't see that as dark. Infinity is a long, long fucking time. Given enough of it, everyone would get bored of everything. "Live" to the fullest extent you want to, and then peacefully pass on. Honestly that sounds great. This one got me kinda choked up, so I'm probably gonna be a mess next week.
Also:
Edit:
Also also, good catch from twitter:
Edit 2: Ah, they mention that on the podcast. I should listen to it before posting!
And honestly, I don't see that as dark. Infinity is a long, long fucking time. Given enough of it, everyone would get bored of everything. "Live" to the fullest extent you want to, and then peacefully pass on. Honestly that sounds great. This one got me kinda choked up, so I'm probably gonna be a mess next week.
Also:
Edit:
Also also, good catch from twitter:
Edit 2: Ah, they mention that on the podcast. I should listen to it before posting!
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But at this point, they have overcome all obstacles. They are in literal paradise and can do literally whatever they desire for ETERNITY. Us humans already get bored of doing the same thing here on earth, which is finite and decidedly not paradise. The thought that you wouldn't get bored or dissatisfied with your constant existence after a long time is naive.
Yes to all of this.
Also, too many are associating this to suicide, but with all the negative connotations that brings. Yes, it's similar to suicide in a literal sense, as you're ending your life. But suicide is done because you don't like it aren't satisfied with your life; it's done in anger and sadness and depression. This concept is done in contentment. Sure, you haven't experienced literally every permutation of things to do, but do you need to in order to be satisfied? You can be satisfied with your existence as you've chosen to live it, and not feel the need to extend it for its own sake.
Also keep in mind that this decision wouldn't be made right away, but probably centuries, if not multiple millennia after arriving. Also, would you genuinely want to solve other people's problems, or overcome your own adversities (let's say as The Good Place architects, as some have suggested) in perpetuity? Even if it's fulfilling and you're particularly good at it, I'd surmise the answer is no, eventually.
Again, I think some here are thinking in too short length terms, so to speak. To reiterate: WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ETERNITY HERE!!! Literally forever. Never-ending. You will get bored.
I did forget to state this before, but the show never did answer what happens when you go through the door. The official podcast even posits that they didn't answer that question in this episode, leaving the possibility that they will during the Finale. For all we know it's reincarnation, or some such concept.
I thought that was the actual finale and was pretty happy, crazy to read that there is still 2 more episodes in a 2 parter next week!
I'm happy with wherever the show goes, I thought this weeks was pretty funny and touching.
I'm happy with wherever the show goes, I thought this weeks was pretty funny and touching.
The thing is depression isn't always anger or sadness, it's emptiness that you can believe there's nothing else left for you in this world. That you no longer belong here. I've been through it, maybe you have too. IDK
You say the decision wouldn't be made straight away but not everyone would make the decision at the same time and that makes it even more fucked up for the people who don't join you. There's not a universal amount of time when it's become nice to go through with it. Hopefully you're right and they do something more tasteful and inspiring in the end besides just walking to their ends.