The idea that being a bad, insensitive male/boy is better overall is still powerful nowdays.

fireflame

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,118
In many fictions, there are still many plots involving the "treat her bad and you will get rewarded " prejudice. The idea that being insensitive, rude, authoritarian, is going to increase the odds of succeeding in a relationship while being kind, sensible, loyal, helpful will only bring ingratitude dismiss, or rank the character as a "beta male".

There was an episode of the Simpsons involving Lisa and Milhouse that featured that stereotype in a parodic way. In Naruto, Sasuke gets popular with girls because he is "dark" but also because he disrespects girls(the way he treats Sakura.

While it is not universal I believe that stereotype is still way too present and does not encourage being a better person overall, by encouraging people to be cynical and mean, including in relationships.
 

Blythe

Member
May 27, 2019
343
There is a point to be made about how, even in works made by the most well-intentioned of creators, men expressing themselves in non-traditional ways is shamed and frowned upon. A point can also be made of how, while men nowadays are capable of a wide variety of emotions, a lot of them lack the self-awareness and empathy towards others to the point where they become a black hole of self-loathing that cannot function without a significant other to "save" them. And no one wants to deal with that.

The general phenomenon of "Nice Guys" also goes without saying.
 

JaeCryo

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,068
There is a point to be made about how, even in works made by the most well-intentioned of creators, men expressing themselves in non-traditional ways is shamed and frowned upon. A point can also be made of how, while men nowadays are capable of a wide variety of emotions, a lot of them lack the self-awareness and empathy towards others to the point where they become a black hole of self-loathing that cannot function without a significant other to "save" them. And no one wants to deal with that.

The general phenomenon of "Nice Guys" also goes without saying.
I feel like this this applies to more than just men, but due to social striation, it manifests more tangibly in male behavior.

Which is why "nice guys" are so prevalent.
 
Nov 9, 2017
1,446
I don't think that "bad boys" do that much better in relationships as much as some guys think being "nice" ( behaving in a disingenuous manner that is too eager to please) is an effective way to treat women, when it is really not very attractive at all.
 

Kirblar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,017
Julia Serano's "Why Nice Guys Finish Last" essay is incredible and I think a necessary read on the topic because of how well it contextualizes the issue- https://www.geneseo.edu/sites/default/files/sites/health/2008_Serano_Why_Nice.pdf

Pages 232-236 explicitly go over the issue in the OP, and Serano's piece lays out that the problem isn't just people being "taught" by others to behave in such a manner by society by social norms, it's that when men are actively rewarded for being more of an asshole, the lesson for them is to be more of an asshole.
I feel like this this applies to more than just men, but due to social striation, it manifests more tangibly in male behavior.

Which is why "nice guys" are so prevalent.
This gap shows up in research environments as well- women are on average better at reading faces, body language, and other social cues.
 
May 31, 2019
103
I think it’s important to take into the account that woman have preferences, and some will like bad boys and some will like nice guys. There isn’t a one shoe fits all solution, a lot of this is just practical application and knowing how to treat the woman you are with by gathering how she was treated in the past and how she wants to be treated going forward.
 

uncelestial

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,799
San Francisco, CA, USA
They are constantly rewarded for that behavior, so until our ideas about leadership and the value of having "grit' change and women stop dating "tough guys," I'd say we're gonna have this problem for awhile.

Every asshole thinks they're just being a cowboy.
 

Blythe

Member
May 27, 2019
343
They are constantly rewarded for that behavior, so until our ideas about leadership and the value of having "grit' change and women stop dating "tough guys," I'd say we're gonna have this problem for awhile.

Every asshole thinks they're just being a cowboy.
Because if anyone's to blame, it's women for shacking up with dudebros.

Sigh.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
16,415
DFW, Texas
Saw the thread title and immediately thought of Sasuke. So I laughed pretty hard when he was mentioned.


Mistreated, ignored and attempted to kill Sakura on numerous occasions and then ends up happily married to her and has a kid lol
 

i-hate-u

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,094
Sasuke got the girls because he was cool. Once he started to go evil, everyone shunned him save for Sakura. Because she's dumb.
 

StringM

Member
Feb 7, 2019
12
Yeah I mean. The idea is still present but I think everything is shifting towards another sight. Think about popular characters nowadays. The popularity of anime has made characters like Shinji, for example, hugely appreciated. It's kind of normal to see guys openly say that they reflect a lot of them in this type of sensitive male type.

The "macho" rude and insensitive archetype of guys is kind of dying in my belief. It doesn't mean it isn't out there, but it isn't cool anymore.
 

Betty

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,130
I think it's just about reflecting the real world scenarios about who's strong enough to go for what they want, and you can be the kindest, most helpful, sweetest dude in the world, but if you don't step up and make a move she'll end up with someone else.

It's worth noting that a character like Sasuke is also really popular with the female fandom, and while you'd have to poll them to find out all the reasons why they like him despite his bad tendencies, I'd bet one of the reasons is he's a little damaged and they want to fix or change him.

I've never watched Naruto though so this is mostly what I gleaned from reading about the series.
 

Kegels

Member
Jan 24, 2019
1,225
being nice is BS and being mean is BS but there is something to be said for having your own goals that do not revolve around catching and training women, dont know why people treat it as its a black and white thing

for example EARLY on in Naruto I don't know if Sasuke was necessarily mean to the girls, from what I remember he was just hyperfocused on training/becoming better (I'm talking first few episodes when Naruto was coming at his neck to impress Sakura, before stuff starting hitting the fan for their village)
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,794
I don't watch a lot of animation anymore, are there other prominent contemporary examples outside of animation or cartoons? I'm trying to think of the shows I actively watch and this trope isn't really common in any of them anymore as far as I can remember.