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JINX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,473
Are you sure? Midway Games filed for bankruptcy and became defunct under his watch as CEO.
He also lead the absolutely massive success that MS has had with Minecraft, Spencer said himself that the reason he was chosen was because at Midway when it was closing he always put his team first being the last one to leave. Not to mention putting the downfall of Midway games on Booty is silly, it would have been gone sooner without him going by his contributions to the company.
 
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Shpeshal Nick

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,856
Melbourne, Australia
In my opinion, hiring and expanding too quickly often produces bad results. I'm not confident that Microsoft know how to nurture a successful studio from the ground up. The studios who've produced games that I've enjoyed have always been third party at some point, or acquisitions. Bungie and Playground for instance.

Are you sure? Midway Games filed for bankruptcy and became defunct under his watch as CEO.

I'm sure Phil, Matt and Darrell appreciate your concern.
 

Kage Maru

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,804
Those are some nice hires. Really hope this is a sign of a cultural change to the way MS manages their studios. I imagine some of this talent wouldn't leave more secure or comfortable positions if they weren't confident that this studio, and Microsoft Studios as a whole, was on the right path to foster creativity and freedom.

Next gen should be interesting.

You can't force greatness, it has to come naturally. So it'll be interesting to see what comes from this poaching.

No one forces talent to join a studio. As I've said to people who complained that MS needs to build studios instead of buying them, there isn't a pool of talent just sitting around unemployed, waiting for someone to build a studio. That talent needs to come from somewhere. So I really don't get negative comments like this.
 

JINX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,473
In my opinion, hiring and expanding too quickly often produces bad results. I'm not confident that Microsoft know how to nurture a successful studio from the ground up. The studios who've produced games that I've enjoyed have always been third party at some point, or acquisitions. Bungie and Playground for instance.
T10, 343 and Coalition have all worked out fine, clearly they know how to do it well at this point. Darrel Gallagher is also a very experienced studio head just like Rod Fergusson or Bonnie Ross was for 343 and Coalition, T10 was built from the ground up, as was 343 which is now massive and Coalition which only has a handful of Epic employees. So I think it's clear they are at least good at setting up studios, while on the third party end Bungie was often a complete mess in development with MS often stepping in. I also wouldn't call this hiring fast, the team must still be really small and they would still be hiring for pre-production.
 

fanboy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,452
Slovakia
Why would you leave ssm or r* from that positions? Its not just one talented man after all.

MS must be offering huge salaries right?
 

Superman2x7

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
1,692
That sounds actually boring, same when Bend Studio who picked Days Gone over anything creative.

Let me quote some game designer:

"I understand that there are a lot of barriers for game designers to create original concepts – you really have to fight to do it in this industry. I understand that. But still, let's face that challenge! Don't rely on old concepts or old designs."

https://www.mcvuk.com/development/going-loco


True, but theres also nothing wrong with a studio doing " a really good one of those."
 

Deleted member 2145

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
29,223
sounds good

next gen is going to be fucking bonkers if all 3 are delivering the goods from their first party studios
 

m23

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,422
Why would you leave ssm or r* from that positions? Its not just one talented man after all.

MS must be offering huge salaries right?

Same reason anyone leaves their comfortable positions: money, new challenges, new opportunities for creativity, higher positions...
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
Most underrated about Microsoft Gaming beyond the acquisitions of studios is the recruitment of talent. Don't have to buy the entire studio if you can recruit the best within each studio to come to you.

It says something that they're able to recruit such established people. Quite a contrast from the past when they bought studios and there was mass exodus of top people...and the one studio that stayed together (Bungie) bought their way out altogether.
 

predrag

Member
Oct 27, 2017
519
Why would you leave ssm or r* from that positions? Its not just one talented man after all.

MS must be offering huge salaries right?

Maybe they want to do something different or new? Sometimes people are tired when they do more of the same, even if that's top quality games. Change can be good for creative people and new challenges that comes with. Starting fresh can be motivation on it's own for some people.
 

potatohead

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,889
Earthbound
I'm just speaking personally. I just think it's harder to produce success like that.

It also depends what your making. I think if you're looking for a creative, new idea, then that's more challenging than making a racing game, which is arguably much more formulaic. The core principles of a good racing game are established, the core principles of x unknown innovative game are not.

Additionally, I think Microsoft have inadvertently placed a lot of pressure on this new studio with the reveal. Which can be difficult to deal with, and they may struggle to manage the expectations of consumers.

I'm hoping, but perhaps this is unlikely, that they'll start by producing smaller games and slowly expanding. Consider how Media Molecule started with Rag Doll Kung Fu, then moved to LittleBigPlanet, for example. Scaling the growth of the studio and producing deliverables that can act as a metric for success reduce risk and help manage realistic consumer expectations. This is also what Sony did with Evolution Studios, where they scaled the studio back and then encouraged them to produce Motorstorm RC. It helps the team build confidence and develop a workflow by engaging with a lower risk project.

Even seasoned developers like Bungie, who left Microsoft to strike out on their own, struggled internally with the development of a huge, triple A game. It's not easy, even for a highly experienced team and it's considerably more difficult when everyone is working together for what likely is, the first time.
Yup the forum here's optimism is nice but also misplaced

They really forget how seasoned developers are from other studios over decades

You can't build Rome in a day and all that, organizational structure takes years to perfect
 
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christocolus

christocolus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,932
Yup the forum here's optimism is nice but also misplaced

They really forget how seasoned developers are from other studios over decades

You can't build Rome in a day and all that, organizational structure takes years to perfect
Yet there are so many dev teams out there that prove otherwise even MS own studios. It's funny how a thread about talented devs joining an MS studio has turned into this "You can't build Rome in a day"
 

vorimenn

Banned
Jul 28, 2018
1,225
London, United Kingdom.
And they probably should know what that team would like to do or will do. Otherwise they would not go to completely new studio. Same for second team in Playground Games which hired great persons along 200 new devs as well.
 

Deleted member 135

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,682
Yet there are so many dev teams out there that prove otherwise even MS own studios. It's funny how a thread about talented devs joining an MS studio has turned into this "You can't build Rome in a day"
Poaching existing talent instead of nurturing and raising up new talent leaves a bad taste. Plus it always sucks as employees to see outside hires come in and people not get promoted from within.

It also doesn't display a lot of confidence in their current teams to feel the need to poach talent.
 

Theorry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
61,043
Poaching existing talent instead of nurturing and raising up new talent leaves a bad taste. Plus it always sucks as employees to see outside hires come in and people not get promoted from within.

It also doesn't display a lot of confidence in their current teams to feel the need to poach talent.
You know this studio is complety new right? There isnt a team yet.. Difficult to promote then.
 

m23

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,422
Poaching existing talent instead of nurturing and raising up new talent leaves a bad taste. Plus it always sucks as employees to see outside hires come in and people not get promoted from within.

It also doesn't display a lot of confidence in their current teams to feel the need to poach talent.

What employees? The studio is just starting up, which employees can they possibly promote?
 

khamakazee

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,937
Poaching existing talent instead of nurturing and raising up new talent leaves a bad taste. Plus it always sucks as employees to see outside hires come in and people not get promoted from within.

It also doesn't display a lot of confidence in their current teams to feel the need to poach talent.

They just can't do anything right can they? Get studios like Ninja Theory, that's bad because now not everyone can enjoy their games. Create a brand new studio, that's bad because they are getting outside talent instead of using existing talent. Microsoft needs to expand, not use the same people they already have who are likely working on current projects. My goodness some of you just can't be optimistic for one second can you.
 
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christocolus

christocolus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,932
Poaching existing talent instead of nurturing and raising up new talent leaves a bad taste. Plus it always sucks as employees to see outside hires come in and people not get promoted from within.

It also doesn't display a lot of confidence in their current teams to feel the need to poach talent.
What are you even on about? Are you new here? This is the norm in this industry heck it's the norm in any industry were there is a lot of competition. All this concern about hiring. Is it only an issue when MS does it? Cos there are numerous threads about devs crossing over to other studios and I don't see the same people complaining here showing the same concern in those threads... You know what? I'm actually really glad MS is doing this. I hope they keep investing in new studios and talent while acquiring a couple more. They have been criticized for a lack of studios and talent for many years and now they are fixing those issues and people are whining about it? I guess you guys aren't been truthful about how you really feel cos i honestly don't believe this concern of yours is genuine. Lol
 
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Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Poaching existing talent instead of nurturing and raising up new talent leaves a bad taste. Plus it always sucks as employees to see outside hires come in and people not get promoted from within.

It also doesn't display a lot of confidence in their current teams to feel the need to poach talent.

Good grief. You know these people weren't nurtured from the companies your claiming they were poached from! In fact, they more then likely joined via the same route!
 
Nov 12, 2017
2,877
Poaching existing talent instead of nurturing and raising up new talent leaves a bad taste. Plus it always sucks as employees to see outside hires come in and people not get promoted from within.

It also doesn't display a lot of confidence in their current teams to feel the need to poach talent.
This is not how the industry works....there's a constant flux of people going in and out... in videogame studios dosnt matter if those are owned by Ms Sony or ninty
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
Poaching existing talent instead of nurturing and raising up new talent leaves a bad taste. Plus it always sucks as employees to see outside hires come in and people not get promoted from within.

It also doesn't display a lot of confidence in their current teams to feel the need to poach talent.

You're not going to build a premium studio from the ground up with entry level talent. This is what competition results in and it's good for the employees. Anyone who works for someone welcomes competition within their industry from business owners because it results in competition over employees. It drives all their salaries, benefits and opportunities to do new things up.
 

Braaier

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
13,237
Damn, that's an impressive list. Microsoft going to bring it next gen! Exciting times ahead!
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
For you people freaking out over this, the industry is expanding. Job opportunities should grow as a result. Neither employees nor consumers should want stagnation unless you own stock in one of the companies that's losing talent.
 

k1x-

Member
Oct 28, 2017
199
Nope. His last game was Middle-earth™: Shadow of War™ (related to story). But when he did for Rockstar Games with Red Dead Redemption he got IAA award for Outstanding Achievement in Game Direction.

So, that isn't mean nothing.

I think it's a bit misleading to say they hired someone from Rockstar when it's Cantamessa who left Rockstar Games 8 years ago and already worked on at least 5 different Games at different Studios since then.
 

JINX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,473
Why would you leave ssm or r* from that positions? Its not just one talented man after all.

MS must be offering huge salaries right?
Well they already offer larger salaries than the rest of the industry, I would guess it's due to them wanting to be part of a studio as it's being built and having a lead role in it. Being in early as part of the pre-pro team and getting to shape a completely new franchise, but also the most obvious one being a upgrade in position.
 

space_nut

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,306
NJ
MS is building a killer lineup of teams. Not only the new studios getting loads of amazing talent, existing devs like 343i have been getting a lot too like the combat designer of horizon zero dawn and more. Such an amazing time to be gamer and good times ahead
 

Deleted member 135

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,682
You're not going to build a premium studio from the ground up with entry level talent. This is what competition results in and it's good for the employees. Anyone who works for someone welcomes competition within their industry from business owners because it results in competition over employees. It drives all their salaries, benefits and opportunities to do new things up.
I mean I guess it's just weird to see a studio being built for the express purpose of making AAA games when in the past (and present mostly) the big studios that make the best games have been growing and evolving for years and years starting from middleware and by college grads and rising up. Studios like Bungie, Naughty Dog, Epic, Bethesda, Rockstar, Bioware, etc.
 

Remember

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,484
Chicago, IL United States
Darrell Gallagher:

anigif_enhanced-17807-1399923963-13.gif
 

Kilgore

Member
Feb 5, 2018
3,538
Here's hoping they aim higher than that. They want a Naughty Dog or Santa Monica level prestige studio.
Yep, but if I look that list some of the new members have been con CD for some time, I guess Gallagher is hiring people he knows well. Of course The Initiative can be bigger than CD, but I don't know why I think they're gonna try to have a succesful adventure ip.
 

vorimenn

Banned
Jul 28, 2018
1,225
London, United Kingdom.
I think it's a bit misleading to say they hired someone from Rockstar when it's Cantamessa who left Rockstar Games 8 years ago and already worked on at least 5 different Games at different Studios since then.
Yes, but Red Dead Redemption is the biggest game around this five anothers. Still some people would like to see remaster for PS4, still some people were excited about X Enhancement. That's a awesome game with great story which still looks great, plays very well to this day :)
 

Ushay

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,351
Poaching existing talent instead of nurturing and raising up new talent leaves a bad taste. Plus it always sucks as employees to see outside hires come in and people not get promoted from within.

It also doesn't display a lot of confidence in their current teams to feel the need to poach talent.
It's a new studio located in a dense area for the videogame development scene, what were you expecting? That they'd recruit newbies straight from university for a AAA game..

Nobody is forcing these developers to work there.

I mean I guess it's just weird to see a studio being built for the express purpose of making AAA games when in the past (and present mostly) the big studios that make the best games have been growing and evolving for years and years starting from middleware and by college grads and rising up. Studios like Bungie, Naughty Dog, Epic, Bethesda, Rockstar, Bioware, etc.

This is exactly what MS is doing, purchasing up and coming studios with talent. AA tier so to speak.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
I mean I guess it's just weird to see a studio being built for the express purpose of making AAA games when in the past (and present mostly) the big studios that make the best games have been growing and evolving for years and years starting from middleware and by college grads and rising up. Studios like Bungie, Naughty Dog, Epic, Bethesda, Rockstar, Bioware, etc.

What weird about it? You want AAA games that review well, you need AAA talent.

I think what you're trying to say is Microsoft hasn't earned the right to do this. That's a philosophical opinion to which you're entitled. Don't think they, most gamers or most developers give a fuck about which stock symbol or logo has earned anything. They care about what's best for them.
 

Kage Maru

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,804
I mean I guess it's just weird to see a studio being built for the express purpose of making AAA games when in the past (and present mostly) the big studios that make the best games have been growing and evolving for years and years starting from middleware and by college grads and rising up. Studios like Bungie, Naughty Dog, Epic, Bethesda, Rockstar, Bioware, etc.

You do realize that these studios "poach" talent from other studios too, right? There will be plenty of fresh talent in these and other studios, but you need experienced people to lead in these disciplines. That is one of the ways talent is fostered and grown. You can't compare how studios were started 20 years ago when it was viable to make a major game in a garage or small office. I really don't understand your insistence on spinning this news as a negative.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
I think the debate people want to have is worthy of its own thread but doesn't fit here. Is what Microsoft doing with the buying of studios and poaching of talent good or bad for consumers and the inudstry?

I think it's good but it's clear that many people here disagree and are getting a litt anxious with each and every move. They need an outlet. Someone start a thread.
 

Bricks

Member
Nov 6, 2017
622
Christian Cantamessa?? Fuck, he's a large part of the reason Red Dead Redemption has good writing compared to Rockstar's other output. That's super exciting.

True, but he also worked on Shadow of Mordor/War, which I haven't played, but I can't say I heard great things about their writing. We'll see how it goes.
 

monketron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,859
343's Halo games and The Coalition's Gears 4 are technical marvels but not not the top tier games they should have been. It takes more than throwing money at a developer to hire a big team and have a great engine to make games that Sony seem to be able to do at will. The culture at Microsoft needs to change and from what I've seen and heard from Phil Spencer that might be happening. Who is Microsoft's Shuhei Yoshida? When you hear the horror stories about how Microsoft treated Lionhead studios, etc, in the past. It shows how there is much work to be done in fostering studio relations and allowing their first (and second) party studios to express themselves properly. Buying more studios will just mean more mediocre games if that isn't addressed.
 

JINX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,473
True, but he also worked on Shadow of Mordor/War, which I haven't played, but I can't say I heard great things about their writing. We'll see how it goes.
Only Mordor, while War which he didn't work on was a significant drop in the quality of the writing. He was also the lead designer on RDR, so maybe when he is also shaping the world as well as writing it he has better results. With Mordor he would be working with existing lore, while also fitting it into the nemesis system.