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potatohead

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,889
Earthbound
343's Halo games and The Coalition's Gears 4 are technical marvels but not not the top tier games they should have been. It takes more than throwing money at a developer to hire a big team and have a great engine to make games that Sony seem to be able to do at will. The culture at Microsoft needs to change and from what I've seen and heard from Phil Spencer that might be happening. Who is Microsoft's Shuhei Yoshida? When you hear the horror stories about how Microsoft treated Lionhead studios, etc, in the past. It shows how there is much work to be done in fostering studio relations and allowing their first (and second) party studios to express themselves properly. Buying more studios will just mean more mediocre games if that isn't addressed.
This exactly

Making a great studio is not just hiring but also retaining talent

The coalition and now initiative making ideas is one thing executing to make a game to compete with insomniac or naughty dog or rockstar is not easy

People seriously take for granted how mature some studios are like at blizzard or elsewhere to make such high quality games
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
343's Halo games and The Coalition's Gears 4 are technical marvels but not not the top tier games they should have been. It takes more than throwing money at a developer to hire a big team and have a great engine to make games that Sony seem to be able to do at will. The culture at Microsoft needs to change and from what I've seen and heard from Phil Spencer that might be happening. Who is Microsoft's Shuhei Yoshida? When you hear the horror stories about how Microsoft treated Lionhead studios, etc, in the past. It shows how there is much work to be done in fostering studio relations and allowing their first (and second) party studios to express themselves properly. Buying more studios will just mean more mediocre games if that isn't addressed.

Microsoft's leadership and management issues with their gaming division are well known and generally accepted. Leadership, strategy and culture have undergone some significant changes over the past year. It's fine to be skeptical however it's also worth noting that credible and experienced studios and developers wouldn't be going under the umbrella if they believed those issues that were apparent until even recently hadn't undergone significant changes.

The horror stories of a division that wore the ball and chain of a flagging Windows division, under leadership of a guy who didn't believe in gaming and wanted to spin the division off (Myerson) shouldn't reflect on new leadership. It's a different team. The stuff they're doing now is with different strategies and can't be compared to correlative actions they took previously. The way their gaming is set up today under the lineage of Nadella, Spencer, Booty is quite different than it was under Ballmer, Myerson and Mattrick. What they're cominicatoring to investors, developers and consumers is different.

It took Nadella a few years to access the division but now that he has, he's championing the team more than his predecessors. I don't think the poor management of a studio like Lionhead under a completely different situation needs to be held up as a warning sign now.
 

Kage Maru

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,804
I think the debate people want to have is worthy of its own thread but doesn't fit here. Is what Microsoft doing with the buying of studios and poaching of talent good or bad for consumers and the inudstry?

I think it's good but it's clear that many people here disagree and are getting a litt anxious with each and every move. They need an outlet. Someone start a thread.

Making a thread wouldn't stop these people from shitting on or downplaying this info in this thread. There have been multiple legit good responses to the negative spin but there is no actual engagement or evolving discussion, there is just a stubborn insistence that this is poaching and bad.

Buying or building studios are really the two main ways to build a first party line up of studios. Complaining about these moves is silly and is more of a sign of bias than an actual feeling of concern.

343's Halo games and The Coalition's Gears 4 are technical marvels but not not the top tier games they should have been. It takes more than throwing money at a developer to hire a big team and have a great engine to make games that Sony seem to be able to do at will. The culture at Microsoft needs to change and from what I've seen and heard from Phil Spencer that might be happening. Who is Microsoft's Shuhei Yoshida? When you hear the horror stories about how Microsoft treated Lionhead studios, etc, in the past. It shows how there is much work to be done in fostering studio relations and allowing their first (and second) party studios to express themselves properly. Buying more studios will just mean more mediocre games if that isn't addressed.

Good post and I definitely agree. I'm hoping what was revealed in the Ninja Theory video speaks for MGS as a whole. This gen has shown us that MS really needs to focus on better management for their studios. Hopefully this change in culture is real and long term.

Legit question, I thought Matt was their Shu. Is that not the case?
 

VinFTW

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,470
People will cling on to the past, unsurprisingly.

This is a new MS/Xbox.

I'm excited to see Xbox's output next gen. Imagine using both my PS4 AND Xbox for exclusives :p
 

Master Smurf

Banned
Jul 21, 2018
40
Some of the concern here is funny - Everybody wants MS to improve 1st party but then complain and nitpick when they go about doing so.

They have acquired smaller companies that will grow and evolve, they have allowed a successful one to grow and spin off a second team and then they are trying to spin up a super team. They have gone pretty much all in (spending wise) but all their eggs arent in one basket.

Some of these ventures may fail but I'm sure all wont and from the experiences some persons may leave or new groups maybe formed still under the MS umbrella.
 

k1x-

Member
Oct 28, 2017
199
Yes, but Red Dead Redemption is the biggest game around this five anothers. Still some people would like to see remaster for PS4, still some people were excited about X Enhancement. That's a awesome game with great story which still looks great, plays very well to this day :)

that's correct. I didnt want to downplay his role working on RDR and the Games before that (Manhunt, San Andreas and a few more).

btw., thats him in the middle with Sam Houser on the right.
sam.jpg


My Point is, the headline indicates they hired someone directly from Rockstar and that's not true. He left 8 years ago to start his own company and worked on a lot of different projects, even on the story for The Crew.

People who don't know that would think Devs who were working on RDR2 and GTAVI would leave that behind to join The Initiative.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
Good to see but we know 343I also hired a bunch of great talent and they still havent produced anything truly great.

What sucks is that we wont see the results for another 4-5 years.
 

Paxton25

Member
May 9, 2018
1,899
343's Halo games and The Coalition's Gears 4 are technical marvels but not not the top tier games they should have been. It takes more than throwing money at a developer to hire a big team and have a great engine to make games that Sony seem to be able to do at will. The culture at Microsoft needs to change and from what I've seen and heard from Phil Spencer that might be happening. Who is Microsoft's Shuhei Yoshida? When you hear the horror stories about how Microsoft treated Lionhead studios, etc, in the past. It shows how there is much work to be done in fostering studio relations and allowing their first (and second) party studios to express themselves properly. Buying more studios will just mean more mediocre games if that isn't addressed.

Gears 4 is my favourite gears game, it's bloody brilliant. I think it's top tier. But you're right about the culture change, and hopefully Phil has learnt from past mistakes and this is changing.
 

monketron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,859
Gears 4 is my favourite gears game, it's bloody brilliant. I think it's top tier. But you're right about the culture change, and hopefully Phil has learnt from past mistakes and this is changing.

It's metacritic score (and maybe more importantly, user score) is well down on the other 3 main Gears games. I found it to be fairly repetitive and the horde modes forced on you in the SP campaign to be downright boring. Looked nice though.

I say this as someone who loved the first 3.
 

Terror-Billy

Chicken Chaser
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,460
Microsoft can't don anything right in the eyes of some of these people. It's getting boring to read the usual suspects on every Xbox thread.

Anyway, I'm excited to see what The Initiative does in the future. No way they are shipping before 2021.
 

Ebtesam

Self-Requested Ban
Member
Apr 1, 2018
4,638
Will MS did what gamers want Improve their 1P games and Now they Do it But people Still complain !

Anyay excited to see what's they Up to
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
Good to see but we know 343I also hired a bunch of great talent and they still havent produced anything truly great.

What sucks is that we wont see the results for another 4-5 years.

I don't think Gears 4 is great however Coalition has been transparent about why they played it safe and do believe that the execution in such short windows has been exceptional. Creating a polished AAA game with full content campaign and multiplayer in 2 years is a pretty great accomplishment for any studio.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,447
In my opinion, hiring and expanding too quickly often produces bad results. I'm not confident that Microsoft know how to nurture a successful studio from the ground up. The studios who've produced games that I've enjoyed have always been third party at some point, or acquisitions. Bungie and Playground for instance.

The Coalition and Turn 10 are great. 343i seems to be getting better, too. Even with that, these studios did much better than stuff like FASA or other studios they bought.

Poaching existing talent instead of nurturing and raising up new talent leaves a bad taste. Plus it always sucks as employees to see outside hires come in and people not get promoted from within.

It also doesn't display a lot of confidence in their current teams to feel the need to poach talent.

That's not how real life works.
 
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VeePs

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,369
Poaching existing talent instead of nurturing and raising up new talent leaves a bad taste. Plus it always sucks as employees to see outside hires come in and people not get promoted from within.

It also doesn't display a lot of confidence in their current teams to feel the need to poach talent.

Reminds me of this

3376655-screen+shot+2018-04-17+at+8.56.19+am.png



You realize the other argument is that poaching allows developers to find better jobs and get paid more easier, right? With how stressful video game development is, for developers it's a good thing.

And people leave and go to teams all the time, not many people stay at one studio there whole career.
 

Paxton25

Member
May 9, 2018
1,899
It's metacritic score (and maybe more importantly, user score) is well down on the other 3 main Gears games. I found it to be fairly repetitive and the horde modes forced on you in the SP campaign to be downright boring. Looked nice though.

I say this as someone who loved the first 3.

See I wasn't a massive fan of the first 3 but loved the 4th. Each to their own :)
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
When my company was getting poached aggressively, we conveniently and coincidentally raised wages within the departments that were most impacted by poaching. Since Microsoft competes with top tech companies like Google, their median pay structure is likely more competitive than it is at most studios. Good chance that Microsoft drives up developer wages in the markets they're building studios.

Poaching isn't a bad thing for anyone besides investors in the companies being poached.
 

Deleted member 30987

Account closed at user request
Banned
Nov 5, 2017
301
When my company was getting poached aggressively, we conveniently and coincidentally raised wages within the departments that were most impacted by poaching. Since Microsoft competes with top tech companies like Google, their median pay structure is likely more competitive than it is at most studios. Good chance that Microsoft drives up developer wages in the markets they're building studios.

Poaching isn't a bad thing for anyone besides investors in the companies being poached.

If MS median structure is more competitive than most of others, if they try to keep up they'll rather run out of cash trying to keep the people. That's what salary cap or Financial Fair play is implemented in NBA or european footbal- not to have 3 houses running the show
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,447
If MS median structure is more competitive than most of others, if they try to keep up they'll rather run out of cash trying to keep the people. That's what salary cap or Financial Fair play is implemented in NBA or european footbal- not to have 3 houses running the show

I'm sure Sony and Nintendo and other big publishers can up the salary for everyone.
 

Shpeshal Nick

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,856
Melbourne, Australia
Poaching existing talent instead of nurturing and raising up new talent leaves a bad taste. Plus it always sucks as employees to see outside hires come in and people not get promoted from within.

It also doesn't display a lot of confidence in their current teams to feel the need to poach talent.

How is it any different to buying a studio?

Do you think Microsoft are the only publisher to hire talent from other studios?

Surely you're not that naive?

In my opinion, hiring and expanding too quickly often produces bad results. I'm not confident that Microsoft know how to nurture a successful studio from the ground up. The studios who've produced games that I've enjoyed have always been third party at some point, or acquisitions. Bungie and Playground for instance.

You know some of your favourite PlayStation games are made by "first party" studios that Somy bought right?
 
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HStallion

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
62,262
Sounds good to me. Can't wait to see what these studios start working on and competition is always good.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
If MS median structure is more competitive than most of others, if they try to keep up they'll rather run out of cash trying to keep the people. That's what salary cap or Financial Fair play is implemented in NBA or european footbal- not to have 3 houses running the show

The reason why there's this renewed competition in the market is because most investors and analysts think gaming is heading for another boom. This is why Microsoft is investing. If revenue goes way up, why shouldn't employees get a piece? Here in America, they already got a major tax cut in addition to the upcoming revenue opportunities.

It's weird that you're so worried for the coporations margins over the employees in a healthy and booming industry.
 

Tetrinski

Banned
May 17, 2018
2,915
This exactly

Making a great studio is not just hiring but also retaining talent

The coalition and now initiative making ideas is one thing executing to make a game to compete with insomniac or naughty dog or rockstar is not easy

People seriously take for granted how mature some studios are like at blizzard or elsewhere to make such high quality games
It's funny that you mention those because Naughty Dog and Rockstar both have the reputation of being very toxic places to work. How many people have left Naughty Dog lately? I lost count, and it involves people from all levels, starting from Amy Henig herself. Just in this post alone, you have the hires of literally a writer from Rockstar and one of the heads of Sony's God of Wat studio.

You might be overestimating how good certain companies are at keeping "workflows" and talent happy.
 

Tetrinski

Banned
May 17, 2018
2,915
The reason why there's this renewed competition in the market is because most investors and analysts think gaming is heading for another boom. This is why Microsoft is investing. If revenue goes way up, why shouldn't employees get a piece? Here in America, they already got a major tax cut in addition to the upcoming revenue opportunities.

It's weird that you're so worried for the coporations margins over the employees in a healthy and booming industry.
THIS.
Thanks for pointing it out. It's amazing how much people worry about these corporations when they have every advantage in the world versus any regular folk. That tax break in America was a monstrosity.
 

Henrik

Member
Jan 3, 2018
1,607
I don't understand this hate when someone is poaching talents. The entire industry does that. Look at Guerrilla Games for example, they hired John Gonzalez to get the best narrative for their RPG. Sucker Punch hires Telltale's lead writer to get a better story for their games and that fits Ghost of Tsushima perfectly.

Big projects like this needs experienced seniors to lead the project. They are not going to hire a newbie from university/college for senior positions. Even in Japan they do the same, look at Nintendo, SIE Japan Studio, Capcom, Square Enix, etc.

Why would MS be indifferent from others?

It's funny that you mention those because Naughty Dog and Rockstar both have the reputation of being very toxic places to work. How many people have left Naughty Dog lately? I lost count, and it involves people from all levels, starting from Amy Henig herself. Just in this post alone, you have the hires of literally a writer from Rockstar and one of the heads of Sony's God of Wat studio.

You might be overestimating how good certain companies are at keeping "workflows" and talent happy.
I don't get this mindset. People leave all the time when a project is completed. Welcome to the current AAA scene which Amy Hennig describes as "unsustainable".
 

The_Land

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,390
Cleveland Ohio
343's Halo games and The Coalition's Gears 4 are technical marvels but not not the top tier games they should have been. It takes more than throwing money at a developer to hire a big team and have a great engine to make games that Sony seem to be able to do at will. The culture at Microsoft needs to change and from what I've seen and heard from Phil Spencer that might be happening. Who is Microsoft's Shuhei Yoshida? When you hear the horror stories about how Microsoft treated Lionhead studios, etc, in the past. It shows how there is much work to be done in fostering studio relations and allowing their first (and second) party studios to express themselves properly. Buying more studios will just mean more mediocre games if that isn't addressed.
I'll give you Halo 4, but Halo 5 is light years ahead of anything Halo bungie ever made. It's a top tier game in my opinion as I still play all the time. Infinite is really going to be something special as well.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
THIS.
Thanks for pointing it out. It's amazing how much people worry about these corporations when they have every advantage in the world versus any regular folk. That tax break in America was a monstrosity.

"...but...but...all those poor corporations. If they have to compete too hard, it'll cut into their profits and then soon there will be no corporations and no jobs."

Where's the sarcastic font?

Fox News economics: If it looks good for employees or consumers on the surface...it's actually bad for employees and consumers. Don't try logic to understand why. Just trust Fox.

Suckers....

On a serious note, folks need to worry about consumers and employees. Stop rooting for the stock symbol unless you own a lot of stock in that company. The corporations have access to plenty of resources to find their way.
 

Master Smurf

Banned
Jul 21, 2018
40
The reason why there's this renewed competition in the market is because most investors and analysts think gaming is heading for another boom. This is why Microsoft is investing. If revenue goes way up, why shouldn't employees get a piece? Here in America, they already got a major tax cut in addition to the upcoming revenue opportunities.

It's weird that you're so worried for the coporations margins over the employees in a healthy and booming industry.

THIS.
Thanks for pointing it out. It's amazing how much people worry about these corporations when they have every advantage in the world versus any regular folk. That tax break in America was a monstrosity.

Especially when in most cases the senior execs and major shareholders are making out way better than the employees.

Following on with the NBA (but insert any booming multibillion industry) - fans wringing their hands and criticizing 'greedy' players for making multi-millions when the owners are making multiples of those numbers.

Stop worrying about corporations because in most cases they arent worrying about you - you are way down on their list and you are going to pay whatever costs they want to pass on to you.
 

AztecComplex

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,371
I hope at least one of these new studios is working on a single player new IP experience. Make me yearn for an Xbox, Microsoft! Because right now Gears and Halo isnt doing it for me anymore and Sea of Thieves GaaS design doesnt speak for me!
 

Deleted member 30987

Account closed at user request
Banned
Nov 5, 2017
301
The reason why there's this renewed competition in the market is because most investors and analysts think gaming is heading for another boom. This is why Microsoft is investing. If revenue goes way up, why shouldn't employees get a piece? Here in America, they already got a major tax cut in addition to the upcoming revenue opportunities.

It's weird that you're so worried for the coporations margins over the employees in a healthy and booming industry.

I am not worried about corporations margins. I am myself working for a major one (different industry). I know how it works .I've seen enough evidence showing that 1. salary inflation based on a trend that may last for a very short while will bite most of the companies very quickly 2. costs not associated with incomes will do a lot of damage and will lead to the purge which will affect all but the strongest.
I don't want this industry to turn into Coca-Cola - Pepsi place where You have just 2-3 players dominating. I care about getting good games, varied genres and creativity which is less guaranteed when the industry turns into soda can one.
 

peepers

Member
Dec 10, 2017
707
Biscay
I'd like to take a peek at what they are prototyping with that team. That and Playground's second studio are going to build the future of Xbox and it's super exciting after these dark years.
 

OneBadMutha

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,059
I am not worried about corporations margins. I am myself working for a major one (different industry). I know how it works .I've seen enough evidence showing that 1. salary inflation based on a trend that may last for a very short while will bite most of the companies very quickly 2. costs not associated with incomes will do a lot of damage and will lead to the purge which will affect all but the strongest.
I don't want this industry to turn into Coca-Cola - Pepsi place where You have just 2-3 players dominating. I care about getting good games, varied genres and creativity which is less guaranteed when the industry turns into soda can one.

IMO you're analyzing the direction of the industry wrong.

As the barriers and cost to reach consumers in gaming reduce, it's going to decentralize the marketplace. We just saw Discord start a store. EA already has their own store and game service that could eventually allow them to unhitch from Microsoft and Sony. Bethesda have their own game launcher separate from Steam on PC. We know Google is getting in and nobody is discounting Amazon or Apple.

That's just a few biggies. Discord wasn't relevant to this conversation a year ago. Discord is more than relevant now and may be the unifying force for gamers to communicate across all platforms...reducing the reliance on Xbox Live and Sony Online game chat.

The advance of technology is reducing the barriers meaning it's all going to be about content and services. Let the coporations fight over content. At some point all these ecosystems are going to either be hardware agnostic, built in to other new devices, or cheaply accessible. It's not going to matter if one platform has exclusive rights to a developer from a consumer standpoint because eventually it's going to be as easy as switching apps (think Netflix to HBO to Hulu). What matters is that these mega corporations who are anticipating mega revenue give the developers the support, freedom and work life balance to be great long term.

I'm rooting for the developers in this one because I know if they have it good, great games will keep getting made. Mega corporations realizing that content is king is going to lead to better games and more variety...not less.
 

potatohead

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,889
Earthbound
It's funny that you mention those because Naughty Dog and Rockstar both have the reputation of being very toxic places to work. How many people have left Naughty Dog lately? I lost count, and it involves people from all levels, starting from Amy Henig herself. Just in this post alone, you have the hires of literally a writer from Rockstar and one of the heads of Sony's God of Wat studio.

You might be overestimating how good certain companies are at keeping "workflows" and talent happy.
That's your narrative you chose, nothing else.

Every studio has that story, almost every one of them.

And you cherry picked hard from my post, because Insomniac has been previously rated one of the very best places to work. You don't think they retain talent?

Anyone thinking a new studio like this can pull off an Uncharted 4 or Devil May Cry 5 out of their wazoo and really sell consoles is reaching as far deep as possible.

People are just looking for explanations when there aren't any. You can't build a mature studio in a year or two that delivers AAA just because. Can't throw money at shit, you think people learn from watching Microsoft over and over again but apparently not.

CAPCOM. SEGA. Eidos. IO Interactive.

They don't just pull Resident Evil 2, Devil May Cry 5, Yakuza, Hitman, and other games out of their asses. They actually have developed massive amounts of experience and workflow to make those games not only efficiently but well.

I'm all for Microsoft making their own studios, but people acting as if they didn't do this 15 years too late are just bullshitting themselves and I'm not about to let such a ridiculous narrative be continuously perpetrated lmao.
 
OP
OP
christocolus

christocolus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,932
Anyone thinking a new studio like this can pull off an Uncharted 4 or Devil May Cry 5 out of their wazoo and really sell consoles is reaching as far deep as possible.
You can't build a mature studio in a year or two that delivers AAA just because. Can't throw money at shit, you think people learn from watching Microsoft over and over again but apparently not.
I'm all for Microsoft making their own studios, but people acting as if they didn't do this 15 years too late are just bullshitting themselves and I'm not about to let such a ridiculous narrative be continuously perpetrated lmao
.
Despite the fact that there are numerous studios out there who knocked it out the park with their first projects you still have decided to downplay MS/The Initiative's efforts especially these new hires.. You have no idea how the hiring process is being done or what projects and creative route Darrell has planned for the projects and the team.. All you've done here is downplay. You ain't even trying to hide the bias anymore. You came into this thread to caution Xbox fans about realistic expectations and to downplay the strengths and experience of these new hires. I don't get it.. Do you post stuff like this in every thread about new hires? also I see you took the opportunity to throw some quick jabs.. This is just concern trolling at this point.. Wow.
 
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Tetrinski

Banned
May 17, 2018
2,915
That's your narrative you chose, nothing else.

Every studio has that story, almost every one of them.

And you cherry picked hard from my post, because Insomniac has been previously rated one of the very best places to work. You don't think they retain talent?

Anyone thinking a new studio like this can pull off an Uncharted 4 or Devil May Cry 5 out of their wazoo and really sell consoles is reaching as far deep as possible.

People are just looking for explanations when there aren't any. You can't build a mature studio in a year or two that delivers AAA just because. Can't throw money at shit, you think people learn from watching Microsoft over and over again but apparently not.

CAPCOM. SEGA. Eidos. IO Interactive.

They don't just pull Resident Evil 2, Devil May Cry 5, Yakuza, Hitman, and other games out of their asses. They actually have developed massive amounts of experience and workflow to make those games not only efficiently but well.

I'm all for Microsoft making their own studios, but people acting as if they didn't do this 15 years too late are just bullshitting themselves and I'm not about to let such a ridiculous narrative be continuously perpetrated lmao.
I didn't cherry pick, I chose those because they were either first party studios from Sony, whom you were praising, or studios from which Microsoft had just hired people. Insomniac is a good studio and delivered a great game when working with Microsoft. Playground is another good example. My point was simply that every big company that owns several studios has good and bad stories, and simply saying that Microsoft is terrible at building studios from the ground up while Sony or Nintendo always nail it is not true.

People here have dismissed the value of Turn 10, making incredible games from day 1, just because they are "formulaic" racing games yet Polyphony has decades of experience in the genre and struggles more and more with every new release. Sony closed a racing focused studio earlier this gen, someone could argue they aren't good at delivering racing games, perhaps the new leadership at Sony such as Layden don't understand the genre. However, I'd say that's probably not true.

Simply, every company has failures and successes, and stating that Microsoft will struggle to build a new studio based on their history is, actually, cherry picking the parts of their history that you want to remember, the ones that you want to ignore, and do the same with the competition to form an argument that in reality has no correlation with the future.

Edit: by the way, 15 years ago? 15 years ago Microsoft had almost every talented western developer making exclusive Xbox games and about to go into the most successful period of their history while Sony was about to go into the hardest of theirs with the launch of PS3 and loss of exclusivity of most of their most iconic franchises. You are not even good at trolling.
 
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