The Irishman |OT| The Goodfellas are Back in Town (Open Spoilers )

woman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,676
Atlanta
DeNiro was really showing his age when he was beating up the grocery store clerk. Looked stiff and weak
Omg I thought that looked strange too. The scene was clearly meant to depict a savage and violent beat down (“my fucking hand!!”) but DeNiro was kinda just lightly kicking and gently stepping on the dude ddd
 

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,032
What's funny is that they had an actor playing a young Tommy in Goodfellas, and Jimmy introduces him to Henry as a younger man.

In this film, Russell meets Frank and calls him a kid.

Robert DeNiro must have some sort of clause that he has to play his character in every scene.
The actors' age was the biggest issue in Goodfellas too. Not a big issue, but Tommy definitely didn't seem to be Henry's age at all, he seemed to be more of a peer to Jimmy.
 

Valiant

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,616
So when he came home with blood, what was that?
Just killed someone. It's relevant to his wife because that's who Frank is describing in that scene. It's to show that she's a real one and is on the down low about Russell and what he does. She'll always have his back.
 

JDFaulky

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,196
Finished it tonight. I found it fascinating and the performances were all stellar. It shot up to the top of my list of best films of the year. Marty still has it!
 

xxracerxx

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
18,366
So was the purpose of the breakfast scene at the hotel outside Detroit for DeNiro to connect with the audience through looking directly at the camera, or was that more just an honest look past Pesci's shoulder because of the emotion his character felt?
 

Rydeen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
383
Seattle, WA.
So was the purpose of the breakfast scene at the hotel outside Detroit for DeNiro to connect with the audience through looking directly at the camera, or was that more just an honest look past Pesci's shoulder because of the emotion his character felt?
The latter, I don't think he was supposed to be breaking the fourth wall, just looking past Pesci's character and taking in the weight of what he's feeling and what he's about to do.
 

Rosenkrantz

Member
Jan 17, 2018
1,956
It was great. Definitely my favorite Scorsese's film this century, just the fact that De Niro and Pacino acted their asses off and didn't simply relied on the bag of character ticks they've been using in almost every movie for well over a decade now makes it special.

De Niro is my frontrunner for an Oscar now, that phone call to Hoffa's wife sealed it. As much as DiCprio and Phoenix were great this year, I think Sheeran is a harder character to pull of.
 

mjp2417

Member
Nov 2, 2017
6,200
Man, that last act (beginning with Frank's gala dinner) and extended epilogue is pretty overwhelming
 

mingo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
243
London
I watched it all in one sitting yesterday, not sure I enjoyed it tbh.

Goodfellas and Casino were better films imo.
 

Jag

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,146
The movie is fairly average isn’t it? Well acted and directed, but at the end of the day it’s just another gangster/mafia crime film. It just wasn’t very engaging.
I agree, but it was also a mostly true story which makes his life story pretty batshit crazy. Not sure the time jumping helped it. Movie could have been 2 hours in chronological order with the suspense building up to murder.

Also agree that Goodfellas is so much better than this.
 

Sumio Mondo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,578
United Kingdom
The very ending to me read that Frank wanted the door left open because he wanted his daughter (Anna Paquin) to walk in. That talk with his other daughter where he's desperately trying to make amends "is there anything I can do?" was so sad.

The saddest part though for me was definitely seeing Pesci's last two scenes in prison.

A little detail I noticed about Frank and Hoffa's relationship, they were so close Frank was 40 minutes late and Hoffa wasn't even mad.
Yeah Hoffa really trusted Frank which is what made it harder. Another thing to note is that Frank was definitely hesitating a lot when they went into the house, he let Hoffa read the situation but still never considered Frank would do it which made it even more hard to watch and made it harder for Frank to do it until Hoffa is almost out the door.

The scene at the end where Frank shows the nurse his photo of Jimmy Hoffa and she has no idea who he is really hit me. For better or worse the closest thing Frank has to a legacy was his role in killing of his friend, and even the impact of that has totally faded with time.
It was definitely a sign that Frank was left behind by everyone and left with nothing to show for it all.
 
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Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,988
I never really liked the mob genre. I liked various mob films because they're well made stories, Irishman included, but the nature of the medium is that it frames the mob desirably and I don't buy into that. That's why even the best of the genre, which are lauded as some of the best films ever made like Godfather Parts 1 and 2 don't have the same punch for me. Whereas others see Michael Corleone some deep character study or fall from grace, all I see is assholes who delude themselves that their business of mundane murder is anything more than that. There is good storytelling in them, but it's storytelling inservice of a myth that falls apart under very minor scrutiny in my eyes, but somehow enthralls everyone else. I can't buy into the fantasy of the mob.

And this applies here too. The Irishman, Frank? He's just a low key sociopath. Like, he's not the unstable, Joffrey sort that revels in pain, but he's the type that simply doesn't care, and he this is most demonstrated in the end, where the priest is trying to ask him if he regrets anything, and he seems outright confused by the concept. He doesn't like how some things turned out, but he doesn't have any kind of emotional aversion to them that we typically associate with regret, but it's also present in how he talks with curiosity, but without empathy, when he was told to murder prisoners of war.

And that also clearly goes for his 'good friend' Jimmy Hoffa too. What did he murder Jimmy for, when it's all said and done? Nothing, really. Jimmy wasn't hurting him in any way, and if there really was no choice, Frank could have passed the job onto someone else so he didn't have to be the one to murder his friend. Jimmy had to die because the mafia was having problems with his union and he refused to let go out of stubbornness and....and that's it. Jimmy died for petty, stupid reasons. And how did he die? With two shots to the back of his head, like anyone else, without remorse or emotion.

And your all telling me it's sad that Frank doesn't get to have a good relationship with his daughter? No, it's not. It's good. If you step back and look at what kind of character and what kind of father Frank had been to his daughters and empathize with the kind of upbringing they had, if you were to read this story in a new article, "Elderly mob hitman feels sad he can't have a normal relationship with his daughter", you wouldn't think "Wow, that's so sad, he's just trying to be a good dad." But like every mob movie ever, it puts the framing of these cold murderers as the front and center, while their family members are just in the periphery.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to have a go at anyone over feeling sympathy for Frank. It's a movie, it's art, you feel what you want to feel. I'm just expressing my frustration with the broader genre and why I can't connect with it in general nor this movie in specific. I still like the movie, the pacing is tight for how long it is, it's entertaining to watch these actors, it's well shot, etc, etc, but emotionally, for me to feel empathy for these characters, I have to buy into their worldview, and I haven't watched a mob movie that has succeeded in getting me to do that.

For me, Frank's ending is neither sad nor happy. It's not sad because fuck Frank. But it's not happy because there's no actual good that comes out of seeing Frank miserable either. I don't really care about his daughters because the film doesn't bother developing their characters beyond just being one of the few non-mob people cares about without actually giving them any personality or motivation or presence except as an extension of Frank. So I just end up feeling a whole lot of nothing. The craft is good, the storytelling well told, but as with most mob movies, I don't care about any of these people.
 

Rydeen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
383
Seattle, WA.
What did he murder Jimmy for, when it's all said and done? Nothing, really. Jimmy wasn't hurting him in any way, and if there really was no choice, Frank could have passed the job onto someone else so he didn't have to be the one to murder his friend.
Just need to step in and point out that Russ (Joe Pesci's character) made it very clear that Frank would have been taken out too if he hadn't been with him on the way to Detroit. If Frank had turned down the hit, he would haven been signing his (and most likely his wife's) death warrant.

Now I will say I agree with you about your point about generally not enjoying mob/organized crime films because they glorify mob activity, it's pretty clear most people got the wrong message from Scarface even though Tony ends up riddled with bullet holes in a pool of his own blood at the end. My issue with the take on this particular movie is that Scorsese went out of his way to de-glamorize it and show just how sad and pathetic everyone ended up if they didn't end up dead early from hits. Like it seemed like people taking away the wrong message from Goodfellas bothered him deeply, so he made this film to really nail home the point "No, there's nothing about this life that's exciting and fun", it's pretty clear from the rest of the movie that unless you're a made man, being in the Italian Mafia is a pretty pathetic way of life. I don't think we were supposed to feel sorry for Frank in the way Scorsese meant for us to "feel" sorry for him, we're supposed to see why he ended up in the isolating and lonely situation he put himself at the end of his life because of the choices he made as a younger man.
 

Fat4all

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,635
bork land
pesci was the standout to me

de niro did fine, and pacino really put a lot into hoffa, but pesci was restrained and felt super well utilized
 

Fat4all

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,635
bork land
overall i thought it was an ok film, not sure how id rate it with some of martins other movies

didnt feel like it was too long, and i really liked the ending
 

travisbickle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,892
Everyone must have noticed the Taxi Driver nod near the end of the movie, when he was in the carwash.

Took a photo with my phone because all my devices seem to block images of Netflix!

 

voOsh

Member
Apr 5, 2018
1,237
Now I will say I agree with you about your point about generally not enjoying mob/organized crime films because they glorify mob activity, it's pretty clear most people got the wrong message from Scarface even though Tony ends up riddled with bullet holes in a pool of his own blood at the end. My issue with the take on this particular movie is that Scorsese went out of his way to de-glamorize it and show just how sad and pathetic everyone ended up if they didn't end up dead early from hits. Like it seemed like people taking away the wrong message from Goodfellas bothered him deeply, so he made this film to really nail home the point "No, there's nothing about this life that's exciting and fun", it's pretty clear from the rest of the movie that unless you're a made man, being in the Italian Mafia is a pretty pathetic way of life.
Yes! This is what I love the most about The Irishman. Compared to most mob movies the entire lifestyle was portrayed relatively unpleasantly in The Irishman. Frank's various houses were all quite modest and there wasn't much serious partying (sex, drugs, rock and roll) that I can recall at all. The hits on Whispers and Jimmy were so fast and devoid of any action that would make them feel "cool". The only hit that was somewhat indulgent to violence was Tony Jack -- but that death fit the victim.
 

she_esh

Member
Sep 12, 2018
7,645
Ireland
Everyone must have noticed the Taxi Driver nod near the end of the movie, when he was in the carwash.

Took a photo with my phone because all my devices seem to block images of Netflix!

Saw the image before reading the post and thought it was some Captain America helmet photoshopped on him as commentary on superhero movies lol.
 

Fallout-NL

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,319
Feels kinda joyless thus far (about 30 minutes in). Is there a point to this?

Also De Niro looks his age in any scene he's in. Which would be great if this was Bubba Ho-Tep, but it ain't, and it's kinda jarring.
 

Dyle

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,471
Wisconsin
It was good but not particularly great. There were good moments buried in there but it feels like none of them really stood out. It would have made a lot more sense to split it into a pair of normal length films to better handle some of the chronological jumps and reduce exhaustion on the part of the viewers.
 

Tophat Jones

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,191
This movie belonged in a theater with people forced to settle in and watch for the full four hours with no distractions if they wanted to see it.
 

m23

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,207
Absolutely loved this movie, Pesci was amazing in this. Not sure if I can say it ranked above Goodfellas just yet but that last half hour or so was masterful.
 
Nov 9, 2017
1,901
This movie just seemed like Scorsese bragging to everyone that he knows who killed Jimmy Hoffa and explaining why for 3 1/2 hours.
 
Nov 9, 2017
1,901
Huh? No the implication is absolutely that the mob whacked Kennedy. How can you come away from a conversation where a guy says - "If we can whack a president we can whack a union leader"
I believe Frank Sheeran also wrote that he delivered three guns in Dallas that were used to kill Kennedy (not everyone belives this is true). If the movie is from his POV, of course they would imply that the mob killed JFK.
 

Flousn

Member
Jan 16, 2018
1,251
Old Man DeNiro for Mortal Kombat 11 DLC.

"A new Challenger approaches!!
The Irishman
paints the House"
 
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NateDog

Member
Jan 8, 2018
593
Have to say I really enjoyed this. Kept me in it the whole way through while in most other Scorcese movies I've watched I've felt like they're split into one really good / great half and one not so good half. Even on my phone I could tell the CGI wasn't great but still thoroughly enjoyable. If I had to pick someone out I'd have to say I felt Pacino was just a little ahead of the rest.
 

Drewton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,032
Love the music in this movie. In the Still of the Night is perfect for the tone, and the actual main theme reminds me of Joker.
 

Chikor

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,602
This movie belonged in a theater with people forced to settle in and watch for the full four hours with no distractions if they wanted to see it.
I don't think people would have had drastically different opinion of the movie had they watched it in theater instead of at home. I don't think it's that kind of movie.

p.s.
Needing to pee is a distraction.

Yep he's a complete prankster on twitter.

I'm pretty sure he's dead serious about Churchill though.
He's also right.
 

Donos

Member
Nov 15, 2017
2,888
Average to good for me. Outstanding Pacino performance. Lenght didn't add quality.
 

Bumrush

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,377
Finally got around to it today and absolutely LOVED it.

Deniro, Pacino and Pesci are such masters of their craft it’s just a pleasure to watch them.

De-aging bothered me a bit but not enough to ruin my enjoyment of the film in the slightest.

Biggest compliment I could give it is that it “felt” shorter than most ~2 hour modern films
 

Pikachu

Traded his Bone Marrow for Pizza
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,265
I have this problem with mob movies in that the people are just so evil it’s hard to really feel entertained by it
 
Oct 28, 2017
408
I have this problem with mob movies in that the people are just so evil it’s hard to really feel entertained by it
I completely agree with your sentiment. However, in the case of this film I think it does a fantastic job of making you want to be disgusted by it as opposed to entertained by the behavior. I think the performances are very restrained to fit the more somber tone of this film.