The Last Jedi: The Gentle(wo)man's discussion thread

[MMarston]

I haven't watched it since the theatre, but I still feel it has some of the highest moments of the entire franchise.

Unfortunately it has a lot of low points too.

- I don't buy the romance between Rose and Finn, from either of them, there's no chemistry
- Most of the humour does fall flat or is outright bad
- There could be a dozen films with Poe as the main character and I still don't feel i'd care one bit about him, he does nothing for me
- There should have been more Luke & Rey, they had great chemistry and an interesting dynamic
- The casino world is unforgivable, it's a pacing killer and feels utterly pointless. The small positives it brings by showing more of the universe don't outweigh it's negatives
- Rose's message about being against sacrifice flies in the face of the sacrifice Holdo and Rogue One make, without which the rebels would've lost
- Phasma was a giant nothing, she should never have existed and they didn't even try to do anything with her

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Figured I might as well talk about some of those, point by point.

- There's not supposed to be a romance b/w Rose and Finn. It's more of a one-sided crush on Rose's behalf, which is pretty clear given Finn's reaction to that kiss.

- Disagree, although that's kind of a "different strokes for different folks" thing when it comes to humor.

- Yeah it really shows how much Poe was kind of a last-minute addition to this trilogy -- he did not get enough leg room in TFA. But I think he's a fairly likable character with a pretty likable performance (yes I know what my avy is) and I at least appreciate the themes tied to his arc in this movie. Not that this should matter for judging a movie, but his comic series is pretty good at showing that too.

- Agreed. It's really too bad they decided to delete that scene regarding the "bandit attack" on the island, which is already shortened from what's in the novlelisation where Luke tries to get her to dance. I also wanted to see something akin to Ra's and Bruce Wayne's dynamic in Batman Begins. But whatever the case, I still like what they put out in the final cut.

- Re: Canto Bight. Again, I think this is a different strokes thing for me. I just ended up really liking the world and design so much, it wasn't problematic for me pacing-wise.

- Agreed. That was a pretty selfish move the more that I think of it. I like the idea of not focusing too much on your hatred towards an enemy, but that was a bad way to sell it.

- She's a walking plot device for Finn's sake. But yes. Yes she is.

 

[JetmanJay]

I enjoyed watching it, but there's a lot more uncomfortable cringe in this movie compared to any other Star Wars movie, I've ever seen:

- Poe and the stupid phone joke thing with Hux at the beginning.

- Luke drinking green alien titty milk

- Space Leia

***Then there were things I didn't like story wise, that I just thought were dumb, and could have been written or handled better:

- I don't care how much it's been explained but the slow chase scene between the First Order and the Rebellion was awkward and just felt kind of off. Like the First Orders' only option in that situation was to just slowly crawl after the Rebellion fleet? That's it? Couldn't have another subsection of fleet intersect their flight path and jump in front of them? Battlestar Galactica did it way better.

- I don't know why Finn and Rose assumed the First Order was tracking the Rebellion fleet with anything other than having a spy within the fleet or a simple tracker within the fleet? Like, the most complicated solution to take out the First Orders ability to track them, and they rule out the most likely obvious methodology of being tracked? (I honestly thought it had something to do with those pieces of jewelry they kept showing Leia, Finn, and Rey look at)

- Then in the relation to the same scene above when the Rebellion splits off from the main fleet to make a run to the planet for cover, they hope that the First Order doesn't visually see them escaping? Really? So all of a sudden radar doesn't exist and the First Order fleet should have lookouts in a Star Destroyer "crows nest" for escaping ships?

-Retconning Any starship into a hyperspace missile capable of tearing into the most powerful ships in the galaxy?
So you mean to tell me, that after all of these years, in all of these movies, in any major space battle, against Death Stars, Star Destroyers, whatever, all that was needed was one suicidal pilot to aim an X-Wing or supply ship, or whatever at any of these enemies, put it into hyperspeed = instant win? Hell, could even make hyperspeed drones out of some of these ships. It's TOO simple. Granted me and no one here are experts on the fictional science of hyperspace, but it should have been implied through all of these movies over a few decades that something like this wasn't possible. It makes every other intelligent engineer or scientist in all of the movies look stupid for not having realized this. But a random politician, Holdo did?

- I was really disappointed in most scenes involving Luke. I'd envisioned seeing his return as a better teacher for Rey. Feels like he didn't really teach her much. It already seemed like she had a better mastery of the Force than he did by the time she got to him.
Luke's extreme conflict with the idea of the Jedi and the Force seemed weird for someone who's supposed to be this great teacher who opened a school to train new Jedi. No wonder it failed, it's implied he sucked at it ( or that Snoke was better at training and luring in students, somehow).
And I did want to see a better fight scene with him in it. I understand him going out like Obi Wan and fading into the Force. It's poetic, and if Kylo would have killed Luke it'd have just fed into his ego. It was just disappointing to not see Luke do...more?

***There was some stuff that made it appealing and fun to watch. It was a beautiful movie and had some amazing scenes and shots for sure.

-I did like the fight scene with Snokes guard and Rey/Kylo. It was pretty bad ass.

-I'm one of the few who actually did like Del Toro's hacker thief character, DJ. Thought he proposed a very interesting idea that I wonder if the next movie will even touch on. The First Order And the Rebellion are both being played by a shadowy, weapons manufacturing, ultra rich conglomerate residing on Canto Bight (or elsewhere) and I feel those are the true enemies who need to be faced in Episode IX.

So a whole lot of that gives me some conflict in my opinion of the movie. I understand why some people love it, but I also understand why a whole lot of people hate it.

 

[Wrath Of Exodust]

One of the most iconic shots of the entire saga:

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The movie isn't even a year old, we don't know whether that scene will be iconic or not. Only time will tell, and my prediction is probably not.

 

[Conkersbadfurday]

It's one of my favorite Star Wars movies, maybe right behind Return of the Jedi. Ewoks are still cooler than Porgs, but it's a close match.

What TLJ does so well is that it has an amazing villain. I LOVE Kylo Ren. I think he's wonderfully compelling in a way that no other Star Wars villain is. His relationship with Rey is also way more interesting than any previous villain/hero relationship in the series. They really make the movie.

There are problems with the B plot to be sure, but I find their resolutions to make up for them. I kinda like that Poe is an idiot and is treated thusly. It makes him a character and not some guy who is good at flying planes and shooting bad guys. I liked watching Rose and Finn on that prison planet, even if it went on too long. The emotional core was sweet.

I don't know how their ship wasn't towed though. Or at least not booted so it couldn't fly. And having the entire movie take place during a chase scene made that chase feel a bit stilted, like it was weightless for most of the run. It's certainly a movie with problems, but the good stuff it does overshadows those problems, at least in my opinon.

Also, just gonna say it: Everyone has amazing hair. I don't know why I noticed that, but i came out of that movie going, "Damn, the hair stylist is amazing."

 

[Kirblar]

I like how it hides the big twist of 9 in plain sight.

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The black white Jedi symbol?

 

[MMarston]

The movie isn't even a year old, we don't know whether that scene will be iconic or not. Only time will tell, and my prediction is probably not.

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If there's one shot that's definitely gaining traction, it's Kylo and Rey's back-to-back showdown with the guardsmen right after Snoke's death. I've seen it thrown around a lot on the web these days and they've even slapped it on the back of Blu-ray box.

 

[Dook's Revenge]

What's the big twist of 9 then?

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I've been teasing the reveal for too long and for that I apologize. It all started when I saw the film a second time and noticed something that seemed really familiar. I googled a bit and it seemed no one else noticed this thing. Some months passed and it appears to have still gone unnoticed. I have scanned through the director's commentary and Rian Johnson says a couple of interesting things at this point in the film. I've run my observation by a few trusted pals, asking them to poke holes in it. None have been able to. A couple think I have spoiled the film for them. I don't really keep up with the EU all that much, but nothing I have found contradicts my observation.

I will rewatch 7 and 8 this week and finally shit or get off the pot. It's not that much work, but I just need to be sure I haven't missed something that clearly negates it all. I'll say this though, it is a shame Carrie Fisher died as it won't have quite the same impact as it could have.

 

[Officer Big Mac]

If there's one shot that's definitely iconic at this point, it's Kylo and Rey's back-to-back showdown with the guardsmen right after Snoke's death. I've seen it thrown around a lot on the web these days and they've even slapped it on the back of Blu-ray box.

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I can see why people like it. But to me it just looks like a set from star trek. Dont bother with a sky. just put them in front of a red backdrop as a stand in for an alien sky because we dont have the budget to build sets outside.

Plus some chris nolan level choreography found it's way into that scene.

 

[Betty]

Figured I might as well talk about some of those, point by point.

- There's not supposed to be a romance b/w Rose and Finn. It's more of a one-sided crush on Rose's behalf, which is pretty clear given Finn's reaction to that kiss.

- Disagree, although that's kind of a "different strokes for different folks" thing when it comes to humor.

- Yeah it really shows how much Poe was kind of a last-minute addition to this trilogy -- he did not get enough leg room in TFA. But I think he's a fairly likable character with a pretty likable performance (yes I know what my avy is) and I at least appreciate the themes tied to his arc in this movie. Not that this should matter for judging a movie, but his comic series is pretty good at showing that too.

- Agreed. It's really too bad they decided to delete that scene regarding the "bandit attack" on the island, which is already shortened from what's in the novlelisation where Luke tries to get her to dance. I also wanted to see something akin to Ra's and Bruce Wayne's dynamic in Batman Begins. But whatever the case, I still like what they put out in the final cut.

- Re: Canto Bight. Again, I think this is a different strokes thing for me. I just ended up really liking the world and design so much, it wasn't problematic for me pacing-wise.

- Agreed. That was a pretty selfish move the more that I think of it. I like the idea of not focusing too much on your hatred towards an enemy, but that was a bad way to sell it.

- She's a walking plot device for Finn's sake. But yes. Yes she is.

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I get that it's a one sided crush, the problem is I don't believe she has any attraction to him, at all, there's nothing there to suggest it and the whole casino side plot was perfect material to at least hint at this affection sheh as for him and it's not there. As long as he doesn't end up with her in the sequel though it's something I can overlook

Humour is subjective, sure, all I know is people barely laughed in the theatre and i've heard the same from others at their showings

Otherwise you mostly agree with my complaints, I'm hoping we see a lot more new stuff in Episode IX, both Awakens and Last Jedi felt like they were going hard on the nostalgia, which was fine for the themes they were going for, but for an entire universe spanning series it sure does feel limited at times.

 

[Alexandros]

Others have already explained some of the more glaring issues with the movie's script. I'll just say that I am not oblivious to the fact that TLJ does have some good things in it. The movie is indeed beautiful to look at and it is very competently shot, there's no doubt about that. But someone put it very well by saying that the script Rian Johnson went with feels like a first draft. I enjoy good stories in every medium, be it games, books or movies, and TLJ's plot, story and characters ranged from uninteresting to just plain bad.

In the same way that I can overlook bad graphics if the gameplay is fun and compelling, I can overlook a movie looking plain if its story and characters manage to keep me engaged. TLJ failed in that regard, I facepalmed inside the theater multiple times during some of the jokes and the directions that the story took. It was one of the worst theater experiences I've had in my life. I've never wanted to leave the theater during a movie before but I very nearly walked out.

 

[Deleted member 21339]

I've been teasing the reveal for too long and for that I apologize. It all started when I saw the film a second time and noticed something that seemed really familiar. I googled a bit and it seemed no one else noticed this thing. Some months passed and it appears to have still gone unnoticed. I have scanned through the director's commentary and Rian Johnson says a couple of interesting things at this point in the film. I've run my observation by a few trusted pals, asking them to poke holes in it. None have been able to. A couple think I have spoiled the film for them. I don't really keep up with the EU all that much, but nothing I have found contradicts my observation.

I will rewatch 7 and 8 this week and finally shit or get off the pot. It's not that much work, but I just need to be sure I haven't missed something that clearly negates it all. I'll say this though, it is a shame Carrie Fisher died as it won't have quite the same impact as it could have.

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You're doing this shit again ?

 

[Lmo2017]

Snoke went out like a punk and I love it! I don't care what anyone else says! Nothing more satisfying than watching someone talk a big game and then get shown up like that.

Love the movie. I can understand people being disappointed in some parts (Canto is a bit lame)... but the outright hate is bizarre. I mean we survived the prequels guys, this ain't nothing.

 

[Dook's Revenge]

You're doing this shit again ?

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I've only just begun!

See you in a week. Maybe less.

 

[passepied joe]

This scene is chill inducing every time I see it. It is just pure Star Wars greatness.

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This was incredible in the theater and is really well shot but on re-watches the choreography falls apart at times.

 

[Skyball Paint]

Can someone make a case why Rey having the abilities of a full Jedi Knight, without having to train at all, is actually good or interesting?

 

[MMarston]

I've mentioned this before, but I think it wouldn't be a bad idea for Finn to become the main dude in the next movie. For me, Rey wrapped up her key development points in this movie. Seeing her take up the mantle Luke had in ROTJ would be neat yeah, but there is just so much to dig out of Finn's character.

 

[Platy]

If there's one shot that's definitely gaining traction, it's Kylo and Rey's back-to-back showdown with the guardsmen right after Snoke's death. I've seen it thrown around a lot on the web these days and they've even slapped it on the back of Blu-ray box.

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The funny thing is that, when you really think about it what this scene IS, it is PURE fanfic material.
Like fangasm Extended Universe type of stuff.

 

[JetmanJay]

Can someone make a case why Rey having the abilities of a full Jedi Knight, without having to train at all, is actually good or interesting?

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Nope! Something something something Force.
Rey's instantaneous mastery of Force abilities were the bulk of the issues I had with TFA.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

I can see why people like it. But to me it just looks like a set from star trek. Dont bother with a sky. just put them in front of a red backdrop as a stand in for an alien sky because we dont have the budget to build sets outside.

Plus some chris nolan level choreography found it's way into that scene.

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Agreed. This scene is really weak for me in all ways. Choreography isn't great, the slow motion is bad, and the scene itself is kind of cheap looking. I can understand why others see the aspects I dislke complete opposite though. The colors are gorgeous, the idea of those two fighting back to back gets you pumped, and Snoke just got his boring ass snuffed out.

Can someone make a case why Rey having the abilities of a full Jedi Knight, without having to train at all, is actually good or interesting?

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I can explain why she has the abilities she does. But why it is good or interesting? Nope. And I think that is most important piece they bungled.

 

[Wrath Of Exodust]

My biggest problem with TLJ, and probably this new trilogy so far even though I really liked TFA, is Rey.

Before anyone even starts with that shit I don't have any problems with having a female protagonist, I think Daisy Ridley does a good job with what she's given, and I do like the fact that her parent's are nobodies.

That said, what the fuck is Rey? She comes off to me as a designated protagonist more than anything. She's really powerful just because, she doesn't seem to have any real connection with any of the characters, and barely has a story in TLJ. You can argue that the main protagonist of TLJ was Luke while Rey was just along for the ride. Her motivation was finding her parents, her parents were nobodies, cool. What else is there really? I feel like they really fucked up her character arc.

Speaking of fucked up character arcs, I often wonder how the ST would fair if Finn was the main protagonist instead. I feel like his background and story would have made for a more interesting Jedi to work in contrast to Ren, who is probably the best new character they came up with. Instead we have Rey as the protagonist, while Finn was given the worst b-plot this side of Attack Of The Clones. And the ending of TLJ scrubbing all the supposed transgressive work it aimed for to leave us right where we started.

I didn't like TLJ at all, that much is clear. But I feel like it effects my enjoyment of TFA to an extent and definitely had me lose interest in what comes next. I just don't care about Rey, Finn, Poe, Maz, and now that I think about it, Kylo either since what was interesting about him in TLJ seemed to be thrown out by the end.

 

[Officer Big Mac]

Can someone make a case why Rey having the abilities of a full Jedi Knight, without having to train at all, is actually good or interesting?

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It's not interesting. We like seeing heroes overcome obstacles. Closing your eyes and remembering something exists is boring. Unless Rey had to pay a price for being a highly skilled Jedi I think they took the easy route regardless of the reason they did it.

 

[ProtomanNeo]

My view of the film is pretty much in line with George Lucas' sentiment in that The Last Jedi is a "beautifully made" film. That's about all I can say for it.

 

[Deleted member 2229]

Can someone make a case why Rey having the abilities of a full Jedi Knight, without having to train at all, is actually good or interesting?

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She can move things with the force and did a Jedi mind trick once after a couple tries. Its really not that big of a deal.
She isn't disciplined and a lot of her physical skills come from training with a staff. Its implied that as Kylo grows stronger so will Rey (for that is the will of the force) which could be why she's picking up things so quickly, but she isn't all that powerful when paired up against true masters of the force. She was powerless against Snoke, Luke let her win and Yoda is calling down beams of lightning as a force ghost. The things Rey does are fairly mundane.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Since this thread has turned pretty heavy into people who dislike The Last Jedi , myself included, I'll try and say something positive for the film.

This was one of the best Star Wars scenes. Across all the iterations, all media, etc. Not only was it gorgeous, but it was so well-written, which really stands out in TLJ. I would like to watch or read more behind-the-scenes because what they truly nailed was Yoda. His personality and dialogue was exactly like Empire and Jedi, and not prequels Yoda. I can't help but be impressed how well Rian understood Yoda.

 

[Quinton]

I pretty much love the movie. The truth behind Rey's parentage is possibly my favorite plot twist in the franchise. Speaking as an orphan myself, it's deeply empowering to me even at 30 years old to discover a protagonist who has gone through such woefully similar mental machinations and had to accept the grim truth but still doesn't lose her drive to do good in the universe. I can only imagine how that feels for children with similar misfortunates, especially girls.

I'm big on emotional resonance. Really, really big on it. I can forgive a lot in life if I get that resonance. I don't claim The Last Jedi is a perfect movie; indeed, I'd say it has higher highs than The Force Awakens but also lower lows. There are parts of Finn's arc that leave me scratching my head a little bit. Poe's arc is fine but rarely spectacular. What keeps me coming back is Rey/Kylo/Luke; every second of that thread delivers for me deeply. I adore it.

 

[NinjaGarden]

I enjoyed the movie but Finn, Rose and Poe's stories don't come together in sensible, enjoyable way at the end. Felt like they should have finished their TLJ character arcs halfway through the movie and used that character growth more through the last act (or two, if you see it as a four act movie).

Also giving Holdo a spectacular suicide run and then Finn getting shit on for attempting the same thing later (whether you believe it would succeed or not) was a confusing choice.

 

[Platy]

Can someone make a case why Rey having the abilities of a full Jedi Knight, without having to train at all, is actually good or interesting?

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She actually receives training from both Kylo and Luke.
Like have you WATCHED the movie?
Considering that Luke received Obi Wan giving a basic explanation of the force, Yoda asking him to run and try to lift a x-wing and making him enter a weird magic cave, she received more training than Luke. And a better magic cave

And from life if you consider knowing how to fight to be a jedi knight skill =P

But the main thing is the lesson Yoda gives to luke.
Do or do not, there is no try.
You either believe on the force or you don't, there is no forcing yourself to believe.
And rey believes. Oh god how much she believes. By her looks when han says "it is true, all of it" you KNOW the girl writes fanfic about it. And knows Han is a bottom in the HanBacca shipping.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

She actually receives training from both Kylo and Luke.
Like have you WATCHED the movie?

And from life if you consider knowing how to fight to be a jedi knight skill =P

But the main thing is the lesson Yoda gives to luke.
Do or do not, there is no try.
You either believe on the force or you don't, there is no forcing yourself to believe.
And rey believes. Oh god how much she believes. By her looks when han says "it is true, all of it" you KNOW the girl writes fanfic about it. And knows Han is a bottom in the HanBacca shipping.

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Some of us don't consider her swinging her saber around a rock, without Luke's guidance even, proper or entertaining training.

 

[BrickArts295]

I really enjoyed the theme of failure throughout the film. It may have not been properly excused all the times (Holdo's keeping the plan secret and pretty much the entirety of Canto Bight) but I appreciate what Ryan was trying to do.

 

[Platy]

Some of us don't consider her swinging her saber around a rock, without Luke's guidance even, proper or entertaining training.

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You can consider not entertaining, but you have to admit the bar for "training" in the saga is pretty low.

And it is still more lightsaber training than deflecting blasters while blindfold


edit:

this is jedi training by star wars standards

If you don't think entering a mystic cave that will reveal yourself and your fear to be jedi training than you have Empire to blame =P

 

[joylevel11]

honestly the humour kinda put me off at first but on the second watch it didn't bother me. other than that the only thing that really bothered me was how Snoke was handled but even at that i feel that i can't really judge it completely until we get IX.

i think it's a great film.

 

[TarpitCarnivore]

So I didn't like this movie at all and I believe that the reason why it gets critized so heavily is not because the movie didn't met people's expectations but because the way they handle characters and their actions within story makes no sense.

I'll give an example: When TFA ended we have Rey and Luke standing just there on this lonely island. So then the movie is over and you are like "oh wow I wonder how Luke is going to react in episode 8!!" and then you imagine how he's gonna kick ass in 8 because by now he must be the strongest Jedi ever. Then finally you sit down, watch episode 8 and Luke tosses the lightsaber away. Now at this point you're wondering why he did that. The fact that he did it is not the problem, the problem is whether his reaction makes sense given the story. The whole story about TFA was about this map leading to Luke because they need him to fight the First Order. Now if nobody knows where Luke is, then who made the map? It can only be Luke himself who did it, remember: It's a map to Luke, not a map to the Jedi temple.

But in EP8 Luke said "I've come here to die". Then why did he even make a map that leads to him, if he just wants to die? You basically told us the whole movie TFA was a huge waste of time and then you are not even sticking with it. Luke came to the conclusion that the Jedi need to die and yet moments later he trains Rey and Yoda shows up and is like "Wrong, you are!".

Then there is this whole Luke hologram thing leading to his death. Again: That he dies is not the problem, but how it's incorporated into the story. He makes himself appear on salt planet, can fool his own sister into thinking it's really him but then ultimately does nothing because he's not real and then he just dies. A good example of how you could respectfully kill off a beloved character was done in the movie right before that. Seeing Han Solo die hurt, but it made sense in the story because it gives Kylo the growth he needs to become a sith or whatever he is now.

There are way more things I didn't like in this movie, but I just wanted to explain my line of thinking when it comes to certain scenes. Like... scenes can look cool, but they have to make sense... The pod race in TPM looks freaking cool, you have to admit that. It made no sense in the story, but it looked cool. That doesn't make it good though because it's a Star Wars movie... Of course it's gonna look great with all these creatures and props and CGI.

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He goes over this when talking to Rey and in her lead up to finding him. He told Rey he wanted to hide b/c he realized what the Jedi really were

Him and Leia 'touch' and exchange a look. This is where Leia realizes he is in fact not there. Luke died from using the Force, at least that's how I took it. Him being their and engaging took all of his energy.

 

[Deleted member 2229]

He goes over this when talking to Rey and in her lead up to finding him. He told Rey he wanted to hide b/c he realized what the Jedi really were

Him and Leia 'touch' and exchange a look. This is where Leia realizes he is in fact not there. Luke died from using the Force, at least that's how I took it. Him being their and engaging took all of his energy.

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I thought that at first but I dn't know if that's the case. He kinda just poofs like Obi Wan. I think they just decided that their work was done and became one with the force.

 

[BigWinnie1]

You can consider not entertaining, but you have to admit the bar for "training" in the saga is pretty low.

And it is still more lightsaber training than deflecting blasters while blindfold

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You do realize Luke Lost multiple times because he didn't have enough training? The deflecting blaster fire is to work on reflexes and get more in tune with the force so you can feel your surroundings in the force and be able to act accordingly. Its actually pretty decent training to cover multiple things in a short amount of time.

Also Luke Spents a few months with Yoda before he leaves to go help his friends, Its pretty obvious alot of time passed during Empire after the opening scene.

Rey has decent combat training but to me the Jedi Mind trick is something you should be able to do with training because it can easily slide into dark side territory by fucking a guys head permanently if done wrong. Also it only works on people with weaker minds than yours, which means normal people can feel it if they are of strong mind and shrug it off.

TLJ fails Rey in that it doesn't allow enough time to pass for any of the scenes to hold any weight. She spends at most a week with Luke and it barely feels like that so I didn't buy into her training really at all.

 

[TarpitCarnivore]

I thought that at first but I dn't know if that's the case. He kinda just poofs like Obi Wan. I think they just decided that their work was done and became one with the force.

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I was thinking that or what I described with exhaustion from projecting, but both do kind of fit esp when compared back to Ben.

Can someone make a case why Rey having the abilities of a full Jedi Knight, without having to train at all, is actually good or interesting?

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I mean, Luke goes from a farm boy to a full on 'jedi' pretty quick too. End of new hope the extent of the training we see is him swinging at a practice ball, then the film ends with him using the force to know when to aim at a small blast hole. Jump to ESB and he's weilding a light saber and using force with ease.

 

[Blackpuppy]

Hey everyone! We're three pages in and it's not a toxic wasteland! We did it!

ome of us don't consider her swinging her saber around a rock, without Luke's guidance even, proper or entertaining training

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To be fair. Luke received zero lightsaber training from Yoda.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Hey everyone! We're three pages in and it's not a toxic wasteland! We did it!



To be fair. Luke received zero lightsaber training from Yoda.

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You're wrong , and stupid, and your pants look funny!!

Ah crap.

 

[Kirblar]

The parts of TLJ that work-

-The Porgs
-Pretty much everything with Luke, which shows off what you can do when you give George Lucas an editor

The parts that don't-

-Poe being the main character of the film is an insane choice that doesn't pay off
-The opening "incoming call" joke with Poe is bizarrely out of place. Humor is good, that choice doesn't work
-You could easily rewrite the opening setup to make it so Poe/Holdo have a clash of ideologies, instead information is arbitrarily withheld from him and he just comes off as a misogynistic D-bag
-Rey and Finn are incredibly passive characters throughout the film, and Finn gets a Shaggy Dog C-plot
-As mentioned before by others, Finn is supposed to have an arc about running away vs staying and fighting, but that arc is OVER the moment he decides to help with Canto Blight
-Rose is not an actual character in the film, she's a plot device so that Finn isn't by himself during the Canto Blight arc
-The kiss is completely unearned and out of the blue, and her lines to Finn are a bizarre contradictory message when 3 times during the movie people self-sacrifice for the benefit of the group.
-I'm positive that in an earlier draft Poe knocks Finn out of the suicide run, which would actually pay off his arc (save people, don't waste resources on needless aggro or physical things)
-Swapping Rose and Poe's positions in the final sequence (have Poe piloting, have Rose leading the survivors out) would actually give Rose something to do on her own unrelated to Finn. Which of course doesn't happen because she's not really a character in the film.

 

[ZattMurdock]

Hey everyone! We're three pages in and it's not a toxic wasteland! We did it!



To be fair. Luke received zero lightsaber training from Yoda.

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I really appreciate this initiative.

Lots of excellent points made by a lot of Star Wars fans, highlights to Cheebo and Platy posts.

 

[Severance]

I don't love Star Wars in general, but I don't hate it. I respect it's pop culture status, and it's place in early 80's cinema, but I find it hard to watch most of the movies nowadays. They're a bit shallow for my tastes. I really loved The Last Jedi, however. It dared to add more layers to The Star Wars universe. The characters were a lot more complex and no one is truly of the light side or the dark side. It broke down a lot of the boundaries that were constricting TFA, which a lot of people lamented for being too safe and too much like the original trilogy. It had it's shortcomings to be sure, but TLJ got me excited for another Star Wars movie. Bravo. That's the best outcome for someone like me. I can't wait for Episode IX and Rian Johnson's trilogy. Stay the course, Disney.

 

[Laserdisk]

The Poe stuff in the thread baffles me.
He finally got things to do and he gave him an arc and things to learn.
He gave him more to do than disappear for 45 minutes.
Sure it's the same arc Maverick has in Top Gun, but that's basicly all JJ gave him.

 

[Blackpuppy]

You're wrong , and stupid, and your pants look funny!!

Ah crap.

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Hey laserlips! Yo mamma was a snowblower!

:P

Back on topic: it took me a few listens, but the soundtrack really is amazing. It reuses a few classic themes but the rest is quite subtle and haunting.

 

[Laserdisk]

The parts of TLJ that work-

-The Porgs
-Pretty much everything with Luke, which shows off what you can do when you give George Lucas an editor

The parts that don't-

-Poe being the main character of the film is an insane choice that doesn't pay off
-The opening "incoming call" joke with Poe is bizarrely out of place. Humor is good, that choice doesn't work
-You could easily rewrite the opening setup to make it so Poe/Holdo have a clash of ideologies, instead information is arbitrarily withheld from him and he just comes off as a misogynistic D-bag
-Rey and Finn are incredibly passive characters throughout the film, and Finn gets a Shaggy Dog C-plot
-As mentioned before by others, Finn is supposed to have an arc about running away vs staying and fighting, but that arc is OVER the moment he decides to help with Canto Blight
-Rose is not an actual character in the film, she's a plot device so that Finn isn't by himself during the Canto Blight arc
-The kiss is completely unearned and out of the blue, and her lines to Finn are a bizarre contradictory message when 3 times during the movie people self-sacrifice for the benefit of the group.
-I'm positive that in an earlier draft Poe knocks Finn out of the suicide run, which would actually pay off his arc (save people, don't waste resources on needless aggro or physical things)
-Swapping Rose and Poe's positions in the final sequence (have Poe piloting, have Rose leading the survivors out) would actually give Rose something to do on her own unrelated to Finn. Which of course doesn't happen because she's not really a character in the film.

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Her sister? She was there to show Finn more is on the line than his crush on Rey.

 

[Kirblar]

I can explain why she has the abilities she does. But why it is good or interesting? Nope. And I think that is most important piece they bungled.

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I think there's a fundamental issue with Rey's character where Luke:Rey::Goku:Gohan and you run into a similar issue with having Gohan as a lead as you do with Rey- they're too much of a goody-goody. Luke had his struggles with his family history, which Kylo has inherited, while Rey is a straight arrow without much in the way of internal struggles.

Her sister? She was there to show Finn more is on the line than his crush on Rey.

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That...isn't really refuting my criticism that she's a plot device for Finn. :-P

 

[Deleted member 5666]

. Now if nobody knows where Luke is, then who made the map? It can only be Luke himself who did it, remember: It's a map to Luke, not a map to the Jedi temple.

But in EP8 Luke said "I've come here to die". Then why did he even make a map that leads to him.

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I am sorry but all of this completely factually wrong.

JJ Abrams himself, the TFA visual dictionary, and the novelization all clarify it is a map to the first Jedi Temple. Not a map to Luke.

This isnt open for interpretation. Official canon media has clarified this.

 

[Deleted member 5666]

You didn't fail Kylo, Kylo failed you. I won't.

This scene alone is why TLJ shits all over TFA from a mountain top.

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God damn that was an amazing scene. One of the best in the franchise.

 

[NinjaGarden]

The Poe stuff in the thread baffles me.
He finally got things to do and he gave him an arc and things to learn.
He gave him more to do than disappear for 45 minutes.
Sure it's the same arc Maverick has in Top Gun, but that's basicly all JJ gave him.

Click to shrink...

Poe sabotaged Holdo's escape plan leading to the deaths of hundreds (thousands?) and it goes by completely unacknowledged. He's even rewarded with leadership at the end.

 

[Deleted member 5666]

Poe sabotaged Holdo's escape plan leading to the deaths of hundreds (thousands?) and it goes by completely unacknowledged. He's even rewarded with leadership at the end.

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It is unacknowledged because only Finn and Rose are aware how the FO found out the plan. Holdo, Leia, and Poe are unaware of DJ.

 

[Deleted member 2229]

I think there's a fundamental issue with Rey's character where Luke:Rey::Goku:Gohan and you run into a similar issue with having Gohan as a lead as you do with Rey- they're too much of a goody-goody. Luke had his struggles with his family history, which Kylo has inherited, while Rey is a straight arrow without much in the way of internal struggles.

That...isn't really refuting my criticism that she's a plot device for Finn. :-P

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If anything Reys character arc is pretty identical to Lukes from ANH>ESB to TFA>TLJ
Luke never had any "struggles" with his family until ESB. He never knew his parents or much about them and he too was a "goody goody". The only struggle he had was reconciling with the fact that Obi Wan lied and that Vader was his father.

Rey is pretty much the same way except the problem she has is reconciling with the fact that shes been beholden to something that was entirely in her head and repressed her memories of the truth.

 

[Nappuccino]

At worst, it seems like the film left some important scenes in the editing room.

I still really, really like it. One of my favorite Star Wars films.