I mean more that it's unacknowledged by the entire movie. The leader of the Rebellion is an idiot and it will probably never be referenced again. The climax of his character arc is a massive fuckup.
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The Last Jedi: The Gentle(wo)man's discussion thread
- Thread starter Blackpuppy
- Start date
Kylo's effectively got this arc in TLJ. I forgot to mention that in my bullet points, but Kylo, Poe and Luke have the strongest arcs in TLJ. Which is part of why Rey/Finn are a problem in the movie- they're clearly not where the director was primarily interested in telling a story, and it shows. Which is not good when they're the two leads.
How would it even be acknowledged? I dont understand how it could be expected to be acknowledged when the only two characters who are aware about it leaking are Finn and Rose who are just as responsible since they are the ones who hired DJ so it would make zero sense for them to tattle tell on Poe.
Luke's ability with The Force in A New Hope amounts to ESP, which I would consider a fairly modest "power". Luke really isn't strong with The Force at all in ESB, in the scene where he pulls his lightsaber out of the ice, it requires considerable effort on his part.
It takes until Return of The Jedi before Luke is able to perform a mind trick on someone.
Meanwhile, Rey after being captured by Kylo, is suddenly able to perform Jedi mind tricks, an ability that took Luke an entire trilogy to learn.
The film has 1/3 of an amazing journey comprising; the new hero coming to terms with her heritage and doing away with the special bloodline trope, the old hero moving on and accepting and learning from their mistakes by making peace with them and going out a renewed hero and symbol, and a villain unable to learn from the past and move on from their obsession.
The other 2/3 of the movie is a mess of bad jokes, tonal inconsistency, heavy handed themes, forced conflicts, wasted characters, and an inability to escape familiar tropes near the end.
In my opinion TLJ is 1/3 great and 2/3 lackluster.
The other 2/3 of the movie is a mess of bad jokes, tonal inconsistency, heavy handed themes, forced conflicts, wasted characters, and an inability to escape familiar tropes near the end.
In my opinion TLJ is 1/3 great and 2/3 lackluster.
It's a flippant action. He smirks after he does it. Considering the gravitas introduced by the context of that scene (the ending of TFA, two years of that scene ruminating in the audience's heads), of course it came off as silly comedy. It was a bad choice.
Force powers arent things you have to level up to learn like an rpg.
Anakin knew how to read a view screen facing away from him without one single bit of training.
Pablo Hidalgo of Lucasfilm explained this very well once. Jedi dont learn how to use powers like its a skill set you slowly gain with more experience. They dont train and level up and gain skills. Its all about the belief that you CAN do it. Cynicism and lack of belief are the deterrents not practice. Its why Jedi start when kids are young and full of belief and are open minded.
Luke was more cynical, as we saw with Yoda. Rey was more open and accepting.
Thinking force powers are skills you have to train to gain like an rpg is not how the current canon treats the Force.
The way it works is if you truly believe you can do it you can do it. Its purely about trust and belief in the Force.
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It's not really how dramatic structure works. You don't spend the first two acts of your trilogy telling one person's story, then sideline them for the last part.
JJ and Kasdan screwed up when they wrote TFA with co-protagonists. Rey and Finn should have been combined into one character. A force sensitive ex-stormtrooper joining the Resistance and trained in the force is more interesting than Anakin/ Luke-lite from Not Tatooine. This is further complicated by the fact that Kylo is a Skywalker so of course Finn is going to get short-shrift next to a character with such a legacy.
Hell, Finn could have been female trooper and you still get your female lead.
The idea here is that the concept of Luke, the legend of the man, was greater than the man himself. It was a valuable lesson to the viewer. After the final battle, his legend was renewed and spread again, as you saw with the kids, even with Luke himself absent. Luke's lesson was that even though he personally failed, he still gave hope to others.
He didn't make a map to himself. He removed his location *from* the map. The missing fragment, kept for reasons I forget, was what they were looking for.
Hell, have the guts to cast a black woman for the lead.
But yeah, those are basically my thoughts as well
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That's not at odds with what I'm saying. In the movie they're portrayed as heroes whose failures teach them lessons about leadership and sacrifice and love. In the final act we're supposed to be rooting for them.
The movie conveniently ends right before all the characters involved discuss what happened and realize Poe, Rose and Finn are incompetent bunglers who should be locked up for mutiny, leaking the escape plan to someone they just met and then delivering him to the First Order leading to the escape ships being blown up.
It's like if Ghostbusters ended with Walter Peck being put in charge of the firehouse.
The Last Jedi stands very tall among the Star Wars films that matter to me.
I like the OT, Rogue One and so far the sequels.
To me they feel cohesive.
The Yoda scene alone rates this film for me. The dialogue is so well thought out. The films themes summed up in Yoda's wonderfully captured cadence.
On top of that the characters are strengthen and deepened.
We get Leia using the force in a cheque cashing 30 years in the making. And I loved it. I really did. She was so powerful but in a way that was not ridiculous and spoke to the subconscious nature of the force. It was great.
Carrie feels like Leia in this film. She didn't have much to work with in TFA and she just felt like Carrie with a script. Here she had the fire of Leia back. It was wonderful.
The weakest aspect is Canto Bight. It serves a purpose and what it delivered gave much needed context but it was quite heavy handed and could have been better handled.
Luke and everything connected to him was great. Mark nails it. My only complaint is the removal of the native party sequence. I wish that scene and his reaction to Han's death had been included in the final film.
I like the OT, Rogue One and so far the sequels.
To me they feel cohesive.
The Yoda scene alone rates this film for me. The dialogue is so well thought out. The films themes summed up in Yoda's wonderfully captured cadence.
On top of that the characters are strengthen and deepened.
We get Leia using the force in a cheque cashing 30 years in the making. And I loved it. I really did. She was so powerful but in a way that was not ridiculous and spoke to the subconscious nature of the force. It was great.
Carrie feels like Leia in this film. She didn't have much to work with in TFA and she just felt like Carrie with a script. Here she had the fire of Leia back. It was wonderful.
The weakest aspect is Canto Bight. It serves a purpose and what it delivered gave much needed context but it was quite heavy handed and could have been better handled.
Luke and everything connected to him was great. Mark nails it. My only complaint is the removal of the native party sequence. I wish that scene and his reaction to Han's death had been included in the final film.
I agree with pretty much everything here. The plot itself is unbearably stupid, but I also recognize there are parts of it that are well made/legit good. I think if you go back to the old movies, there really isn't anything that jumps out at me as a giant plot hole or inconsistency (like the suicide jump to light speed), with the exception of Ewoks taking on an elite storm trooper unit. But the plots of these movies are just nonsensical to me. Another Death Star where you can watch it blow up entire star systems from other star systems? This stupidly manufactured chase sequence? A jaunt over to a casino planet for a stupid cliche chase sequence?
Some of this stuff is just legit bad or out of place. BUT, I liked what they did with the characters and I like the characters...like, all of them. It's a great new cast and I want to watch more movies with them...it's just the movies themselves feel contrived and dumb.
Keep Boyega as the lead and make a Poe a heroic female pilot with sass and personality. Could have worked. JJ copied his ST 2009 approach with Kirk/Spock
Force powers arent things you have to level up to learn like an rpg.
Anakin knew how to read a view screen facing away from him without one single bit of training.
Pablo Hidalgo of Lucasfilm explained this very well once. Jedi dont learn powers. How dont train and level up and gain skills. Its all about the belief that you CAN do it. Cynicism and lack of belief are the deterrents not practice. Its why Jedi start when kids are young and full of belief and are openef minded.
Luke was more cynical, as we saw with Yoda. Rey was more open and accepting.
Thinking force powers are skills you have to train to gain like an rpg is not how the current canon treats the Force.
This SOOOOOO much!
This is actually part of a larger thought process I had w/regards to TLJ, TFA, and Disney Star Wars in general. I'm actually thinking of making a thread out of it once I get my thoughts together, but the "thesis statement" is basically that although the new movies have their flaws, (and just to be clear, it's alright if you don't like these new movie because of their flaws!) the largest and most vocal contingent of the backlash against these new films is upset over the fact that this isn't "their" Star Wars anymore; this isn't how the Force is supposed to work, these aren't the same characters that I fell in love with nor how their stories should have ended, these aren't the answers to the questions I cared about nor the answers I wanted. The main split here, I believe, comes from the direction the new films are taking; instead of following up on the lore question of "What happens 30 years after ROTJ?", which had already been done to death before these new films, the Sequels are instead a reflection on what Star Wars is, what it means now that it is "officially back", and how this impacts the fans. The story of Rey, Finn, Poe, Kylo, Hux, etc. are all the story of Star Wars fans of different backgrounds and stripes coming to terms with this franchise's legacy, it's triumphs and failures, and how these fans are going to carry the story forward. This is a trilogy much more concerned with themes of disappointment, resentment, identity, growing up, and belief in the power of family than it is concerned with, say, the political situation of the Galaxy post the fall of the Galactic Empire, or the details of Jedi training, or one of the thousand lore questions fans have about this new setting. Frustrations over the multiple OT callbacks of TFA or the deliberately misleading nature of TLJ are simply extensions of the deeper frustration that these new movies care more about themes and Star Wars' position as modern myth than it is with being "Star Wars: The Next Generation!"
Also, sidenote, the criticisms against the plots of these films can be put in this "Not the Point" category as well. This may come as a shock to some people, but having a perfectly engineered puzzle-box of a plot is not the requisite end goal of making a good movie. A movie's plot is just one part of the overall story, and the concerns of explaining how things work or why things are the way they are in the case of these films is secondary to the themes being explored. These films actually do more often than not put in the effort, they just don't put a spotlight on it and they aren't meant to be satisfying answers, again because the themes of disappointment and failure are the big focus, especially in the case of TLJ. Sure, in the case of something like Starkiller Base it is a genuine issue how the film glosses over something so integral to the climax, but in the case of Finn/Poe/Rose's plan being a complete failure and the fact that it would've been better if they hadn't acted at all it is not a problem because it serves the story's exploration of the above-mentioned themes. There is no rule that says characters can't fail or make mistakes, or that a plot always has to be moving forward towards some new development or resolution for it to be "good."
Personally, I love the insights and criticisms TFA and TLJ raise, and I think taken on their own as pieces of film they're well-acted, well-shot, entertaining films with a lot of value taken on their own merits. I do however sympathize with fans who fell in love with the Thrawn Trilogy, or who came up with their own ideas for a sequel, who wanted to see Luke's Jedi Academy grow and prosper, who wanted Han and Leia to grow old and happy together, who wanted to see more of the crazier aspects of the Star Wars canon be explored, who wanted more of the cool stuff they had personally grown attached to like crazy Jedi Superheroes and Badass Bounty Hunters. The funny thing is that most of these concerns are at least commented on in some way by these new films, often in a critical or disappointing way, but again it's all in the execution for me and they've so far succeeded at what they set out to do. Hopefully the creators can stick the landing they've set up with Episode IX.
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This thread needed a poll. Cheebo and others repeatedly claim that TLJ is beloved by the fanbase. I believe he's completely wrong in this regard. Why don't we get some actual data?
I'm betting the percentage of users who thought the movie was great is closer to 50% than 90%.
I'm betting the percentage of users who thought the movie was great is closer to 50% than 90%.
I have mixed feelings about it. It looks great and I understand what they were going for, though I don't necessarily agree with it or its execution.
The strangest thing for me was that I left the theater feeling indifferent about where the story would go next. That was the last thing I ever expected coming out of a (mainline) Star Wars film.
The strangest thing for me was that I left the theater feeling indifferent about where the story would go next. That was the last thing I ever expected coming out of a (mainline) Star Wars film.
Star Wars polled peoples favorite films in the franchise
ESB came in first
TLJ came in second
TLJ was even first for a while until the poll started getting shared on Reddit.
For me the positive was :
- it look amazing
- even if I don't like that in the end it feel like Luke didn't accomplish anything post OT, I like that luke weakness is why everything collapsed with Ben
For me the negative was :
- most of the humor was too much for me, the opening scene being one of the worst offender was the best way to make it almost impossible not getting critical for the rest of the movie
- many character decision felt uterly stupid, Holdo not sharing her plan ( at least when the mutiny happen ) being the worst
- I would trade every single seconds of that casino planet for more Rey / luke training ( wouldn't work with the scenario they choose but i would also add a timeskip of at least a few month for that period )
- The same way I thought humor defusing every single scene of Thor Ragnarok was counter productive because it quickly become expected even during the first viewing, I felt the same about that deconstruction of people expectation during Ep8. You already know how things won't go because it apply that principle every time
- despite how amazing it looked, introducing that element to the universs destroy it for me. I can ignore something missing from a made up universe and think "even if it make no sense, that doesn't exist in that universe". But the second you introduce it, I won't be able to think "why was it not used up until now ( and probably won't be used again )"
- Finn origin as a stormtrooper still not used in an interesting way
- As much as I hate Phasma armor, such a big disapointing character, they could have done so much better with her. The result is that I don't think I enjoy any of the "bad guy" in the current trilogy... at least Snoke had potential... until TLJ.
That probably the biggest things for me, I have many small nitpick, but that's true with pretty much every movies ever.
- it look amazing
- even if I don't like that in the end it feel like Luke didn't accomplish anything post OT, I like that luke weakness is why everything collapsed with Ben
For me the negative was :
- most of the humor was too much for me, the opening scene being one of the worst offender was the best way to make it almost impossible not getting critical for the rest of the movie
- many character decision felt uterly stupid, Holdo not sharing her plan ( at least when the mutiny happen ) being the worst
- I would trade every single seconds of that casino planet for more Rey / luke training ( wouldn't work with the scenario they choose but i would also add a timeskip of at least a few month for that period )
- The same way I thought humor defusing every single scene of Thor Ragnarok was counter productive because it quickly become expected even during the first viewing, I felt the same about that deconstruction of people expectation during Ep8. You already know how things won't go because it apply that principle every time
- despite how amazing it looked, introducing that element to the universs destroy it for me. I can ignore something missing from a made up universe and think "even if it make no sense, that doesn't exist in that universe". But the second you introduce it, I won't be able to think "why was it not used up until now ( and probably won't be used again )"
- Finn origin as a stormtrooper still not used in an interesting way
- As much as I hate Phasma armor, such a big disapointing character, they could have done so much better with her. The result is that I don't think I enjoy any of the "bad guy" in the current trilogy... at least Snoke had potential... until TLJ.
That probably the biggest things for me, I have many small nitpick, but that's true with pretty much every movies ever.
A polarized nerd bubble doesn't accurately represent general audience opinion.
StarWars.com did a poll. That is as close to being a poll for the entire fanbase as you can get. TLJ was a close second to ESB, way ahead of ANH.
Poll happened, fanbase showed they motly loved TLJ. Pretty simple yeah?
Ummm....no? What ease? He gets his shit rocked by Darth Vader, which Yoda warns him of, because he didn't complete his training. He doesn't get to full Jedi till Return of the Jedi. I tend to agree that progress was quick for Luke, but it spanned the entire trilogy for him to get to a point of fully becoming a Jedi and ending the war. Rey on the other hand is just powerful.
I hate when people call her a mary sue, but let's not pretend she isn't pretty overpowered from the start.
I think that at the very least everyone can agree that the Kylo/Rey storyline really works incredibly, and I actually wish that the rest of the film had been handled with a similar sincerity.
As it is I think that if you were to take away that storyline nothing else really holds up on its own merit. A lot of stuff like the Canto blight arc makes perfect sense in theory, but is hard to watch in the actual final product.
And I also think that JJ, for all the Force Awakens glaring faults, had an incredibly strong central duo with Finn and Poes chemistry, enough so I'd even argue their moments together make the movie. Neither of these characters were given their due in Last Jedi, both reduced to Flanderisations of themselves (Finn an idiot coward and Poe an idiot maverick) and essentially character assassinated for the sake of the films themes and that's something that I personally really can't get past.
But I still really enjoyed the film, and am looking forward to the next. Hopefully Rians trilogy gets a better general reception as he can make his own characters and arcs from scratch, cus the guy's very talented.
As it is I think that if you were to take away that storyline nothing else really holds up on its own merit. A lot of stuff like the Canto blight arc makes perfect sense in theory, but is hard to watch in the actual final product.
And I also think that JJ, for all the Force Awakens glaring faults, had an incredibly strong central duo with Finn and Poes chemistry, enough so I'd even argue their moments together make the movie. Neither of these characters were given their due in Last Jedi, both reduced to Flanderisations of themselves (Finn an idiot coward and Poe an idiot maverick) and essentially character assassinated for the sake of the films themes and that's something that I personally really can't get past.
But I still really enjoyed the film, and am looking forward to the next. Hopefully Rians trilogy gets a better general reception as he can make his own characters and arcs from scratch, cus the guy's very talented.
Completely agree that having them be separate characters is a major issue, especially in TLJ where there are 5 lead characters vying for space w/ Luke's reintroduction.
A lot of the issues are also due to JJ having Don Draper's problem of "You only like the beginning of things". He has continuously used Mystery Boxes in other shows where he had no idea what the payoff would be (Alias, Felicity, LOST, etc.) and he did the same thing with TFA. He likes to set up questions without knowing the answers, and when you do that and hand it off to a new writing team, the answers inevitably disappoint.
Cmon son...don't play like that. Throw it out there for the wolves.
I mean, it's the most recent movie. It usually takes a lot of time for people to formulate what they really think of the movie. ESB is by far the lowest grossing Star Wars movie (till Solo at least) and the reverence for it became more clear over time, so did some fans' hatred for ROTJ (of which I disagree with which is neither here nor there). The hatred for Phantom Menace didn't truly manifest till later as well.
Not saying it will clearly be hated or anything like that. But we won't really know how it will be seen overall by the majority till later, but for now there's clearly a divide all over. And it's pretty disingenuous to disregard people's reactions to the movie by linking to polls where most who would have voted for it are superfans.
I agree completely that its too early but he wanted a poll of fanbase now and StarWars.com doing a poll a month or so ago is the biggest net of polling the fanbase as you can get right now.
I loved the movie. My main issue though is where they took Finn's storyline. He felt like a major protagonist at about the same level as Rey in TFA and it was awesome. I was so excited to see how his character would have a big impact even though he wasn't gonna be a Jedi with force powers like Rey. Then in TLJ he is pushed down and relegated to being a background character with a side story that wasn't very interesting and a message that is okay but not anything amazing imo at least in it's execution. Also he was given Rose as a love interest and even though they show he might not be really into her as much as she is to him it still feels like the relationship was designed just to pull him away from being attached to Rey. Which wouldn't be the worst thing but the chemistry is no where near as good with Rose and Finn as it is with Rey and Finn which was my favorite aspect of TFA. They were two fantastic new characters meeting and becoming friends quickly that I really just wanted to see them together in the future movies.
But they barely interacted at all in TLJ. That was disappointing and I hope if anything, JJ Abrams is able to bring him back to the forefront in a good believable way to close out the trilogy. Which seems awfully difficult while also having to conclude so many other things that TLJ didn't set up for. Very interested in seeing how Episode 9 turns out.
But they barely interacted at all in TLJ. That was disappointing and I hope if anything, JJ Abrams is able to bring him back to the forefront in a good believable way to close out the trilogy. Which seems awfully difficult while also having to conclude so many other things that TLJ didn't set up for. Very interested in seeing how Episode 9 turns out.
I didn't think TLJ was that great a film. The main plot was so-so, some of the humour was really cringeworthy (the opening "phone joke" is monumentally out of place and instantly starts the movie off on a bad footing), and the whole casino planet escapade was an exercise in pointlessness.
Holdo/Poe is so pathetically childish on both ends I don't know where to begin there. I'd say the First Order is winning because the Rebellion is headed up by children, but then I've seen Kylo and Hux.
Snoke is some creepy (and not in an intimidating way) dude in a golden smoking jacket. That was a thing.
I'm not a fan of how Luke is handled. Just like Ben Kenobi, he makes mistakes as a teacher and the galaxy is paying for it. Then he runs away from it, gets coaxed back finally, helps a bit and dies. Huzzah. He should be surpassing his mentor, not making the same mistake.
I mean it's better then Phantom Menace I guess.
Holdo/Poe is so pathetically childish on both ends I don't know where to begin there. I'd say the First Order is winning because the Rebellion is headed up by children, but then I've seen Kylo and Hux.
Snoke is some creepy (and not in an intimidating way) dude in a golden smoking jacket. That was a thing.
I'm not a fan of how Luke is handled. Just like Ben Kenobi, he makes mistakes as a teacher and the galaxy is paying for it. Then he runs away from it, gets coaxed back finally, helps a bit and dies. Huzzah. He should be surpassing his mentor, not making the same mistake.
I mean it's better then Phantom Menace I guess.
I loved the Rey, Luke, Kylo Ren storyline in the movie, and the lightsaber fight in Snoke's throne room is possibly my favorite fight sequence in the entire series.
i just feel that they treated the minority characters (moreso Finn), as side notes. They neutered Finn in "The Force Awakens" by basically making Rey a pilot, a fighter, and force sensitive, and then had Poe be an expert pilot; Finn is literally there just to move the plot forward and attempt to be comic relief. Now in "The Last Jedi" he's given a task that becomes pointless about 65% through the scene, and yet again he is only there to either move the plot forward or be comic relief, Rose doesn't even really need Finn for the casino mission other than to have Maz Kanata's phone number.
Also, don't get me started on the broom kid...
i just feel that they treated the minority characters (moreso Finn), as side notes. They neutered Finn in "The Force Awakens" by basically making Rey a pilot, a fighter, and force sensitive, and then had Poe be an expert pilot; Finn is literally there just to move the plot forward and attempt to be comic relief. Now in "The Last Jedi" he's given a task that becomes pointless about 65% through the scene, and yet again he is only there to either move the plot forward or be comic relief, Rose doesn't even really need Finn for the casino mission other than to have Maz Kanata's phone number.
Also, don't get me started on the broom kid...
It is not in the movie. I watch the movie, I do not care about novels or interviews and whatnot.
I mean Holdo was 100% in the right. She didnt want the plan leaked out and high ranking military officials dont tell the lower ranking captains their top secret plans.
And she was proven right because soon as Poe found out he leaked it and fucked things up.
The whole Holdo thing could be smoothed over if she just told Poe "if they followed us through hyperspace there might be a spy on board and I'm not divulging any plans to you because of that, you idiot, now go do what I say because I'm in charge" and Poe goes with the Canto Bight plot anyway.
I've only watched it the once so my memory may not be accurate, but wasn't the pivotal point of Poe's mutiny him saying to her "Please at least tell me there's a plan" to be answered by platitudes? Then they do some close up on Poe where it's obvious he no longer has any faith in Holdo? There's a duty on high ranking officers to keep up morale that certainly wasn't being kept there, unless I'm massively misremembering the scene.
No he
You're overstating things. He uses the Force to fire his torpedoes. That's one instance he had to concentrate and have Han save his ass.
He most certainly does not use the Force with ease in ESB. He has to, again, concentrate to pull his lightsaber to him in the wampa cave. He cant lift his XWing out of the swamp but he can do flips. He confronts Vader but it's no duel. Vader is testing Luke, toying with him. Vader could have killed him if that was his objective.
RotJ he is finally comfortable in his powers but still no match for Vader or the Emperor. Not without giving into the dark side.
It really took Luke 3 films and who knows how much real time to do what Rey did in 15 minutes of screen time.
You're overstating things. He uses the Force to fire his torpedoes. That's one instance he had to concentrate and have Han save his ass.
He most certainly does not use the Force with ease in ESB. He has to, again, concentrate to pull his lightsaber to him in the wampa cave. He cant lift his XWing out of the swamp but he can do flips. He confronts Vader but it's no duel. Vader is testing Luke, toying with him. Vader could have killed him if that was his objective.
RotJ he is finally comfortable in his powers but still no match for Vader or the Emperor. Not without giving into the dark side.
It really took Luke 3 films and who knows how much real time to do what Rey did in 15 minutes of screen time.
I'm totally in agreement with you OP that 7 could have set up 8 way better. Actually, while 8 isn't my favorite film in the franchise by any means, I do see it's greatness in places and I strongly feel that JJ kind of botched the whole trilogy with the way he did 7. I would've loved to have seen what Rian could have done with the entire trilogy. 7 just needed to establish the world and the time period a tiny bit more and leave fewer crazy opened ended questions. Yes I know, "but that's the magic of the mystery box!" Well, it didn't really work for me, I suppose.
Still, 8 isn't without its own flaws. I wish that Finn and Rose had been written and presented in a way that made me care more. There are two main characters who I feel just kind of got the short end of the stick. The whole Casino segment could have been replaced with something maybe a little more worthwhile. Also, some of the comedy. Yes, sorry, some of it just felt out of place. "But Star Wars has always had comedy like that!" I don't know, Poe and Hux in the beginning just felt so forced and weirdly immersion breaking to me. Way more so than Han Solo on the Death Star in the detention block in 4.
There are great things about 8, but like any Star Wars movie, it isn't perfect. That doesn't mean there isn't a lot to love though.
Still, 8 isn't without its own flaws. I wish that Finn and Rose had been written and presented in a way that made me care more. There are two main characters who I feel just kind of got the short end of the stick. The whole Casino segment could have been replaced with something maybe a little more worthwhile. Also, some of the comedy. Yes, sorry, some of it just felt out of place. "But Star Wars has always had comedy like that!" I don't know, Poe and Hux in the beginning just felt so forced and weirdly immersion breaking to me. Way more so than Han Solo on the Death Star in the detention block in 4.
There are great things about 8, but like any Star Wars movie, it isn't perfect. That doesn't mean there isn't a lot to love though.
While there were aspect to TLJ that I did enjoy, for the most part, the film basically served to basically cut off my interest in future SW films. Haven't seen Solo yet, have no desire to, and I really haven't kept up at all with Episode 9, and I have zero interest in seeing how that'll turn out.
As a lifelong fan of SW who finally had his fandom 'turned' or 'burned' with TLJ, I don't harbor any ill will towards any of the people involved in making it or what have you. This is their vision for the franchise and a ton of people enjoy this new direction for a myriad of reasons. I may not agree with any of this, but it doesn't matter - its finding its audience. I'm open to having my interest reignited in the future, but the banner men & women of the franchise are going to have to put in a tremendous amount of effort to pull me back in. I highly doubt they need my support anyway - its still SW & its still doing well by any other standard.
So, what exactly turned me away from it all? I guess you could say its just a sum of its parts, not any 1 aspect in particular. Honestly, all of TLJ & TFA to an extent, just feel like its suffering from a tremendous lack of vision, and the cynic in me can't help but feel the only reason these even exist is less to tell a story & more to just make money, cause thats what Star Wars does more than anything. None of the story told thus far has felt like its consequential to the SW universe in any way, and so much of it is just retreading things we've already gone over in earlier films.
Take Captain Phasma for instance. I was perfectly okay with how they handled the character in TFA, because in the movie she was setup to be mostly inconsequential, although admittedly the marketing made her seem like a far bigger deal than she actually was, and there was a notable fan outcry over just dumping the character in a trash chute. So, TLJ comes around and what do they do? Inexplicably bring her back, all just so she has some nonsense fight scene with Finn which ultimately does absolutely nothing to the arcs of the various characters or plot of the movie - this entire sequence in TLJ was completely community serving & nothing else.
That was probably when I realized - any sort of 'vision' that typically fueled this series was gone. Any cohesive one, anyway. Once that cynicism set in, it was hard to not look at all of TLJ with that perspective, and ultimately it just turned me off of anything Star Wars related for the foreseeable future.
I do have a ton of criticism regarding arcs involving Rose or that Commander who was in charge of the Rebellion/Resistance for most of the movie, but none of it is new or really per-tenant to what i'm saying - these individual characters or moments, which are tremendous misfires in my eyes, wouldn't kill my interest in SW moving forward on their own; if I could live through the age of Jar-Jar Binks, I could live through a few silly characters & questionable writing. Its just looking at all of it as one big package that makes me finally decide "Ya know what? No thanks."
As a lifelong fan of SW who finally had his fandom 'turned' or 'burned' with TLJ, I don't harbor any ill will towards any of the people involved in making it or what have you. This is their vision for the franchise and a ton of people enjoy this new direction for a myriad of reasons. I may not agree with any of this, but it doesn't matter - its finding its audience. I'm open to having my interest reignited in the future, but the banner men & women of the franchise are going to have to put in a tremendous amount of effort to pull me back in. I highly doubt they need my support anyway - its still SW & its still doing well by any other standard.
So, what exactly turned me away from it all? I guess you could say its just a sum of its parts, not any 1 aspect in particular. Honestly, all of TLJ & TFA to an extent, just feel like its suffering from a tremendous lack of vision, and the cynic in me can't help but feel the only reason these even exist is less to tell a story & more to just make money, cause thats what Star Wars does more than anything. None of the story told thus far has felt like its consequential to the SW universe in any way, and so much of it is just retreading things we've already gone over in earlier films.
Take Captain Phasma for instance. I was perfectly okay with how they handled the character in TFA, because in the movie she was setup to be mostly inconsequential, although admittedly the marketing made her seem like a far bigger deal than she actually was, and there was a notable fan outcry over just dumping the character in a trash chute. So, TLJ comes around and what do they do? Inexplicably bring her back, all just so she has some nonsense fight scene with Finn which ultimately does absolutely nothing to the arcs of the various characters or plot of the movie - this entire sequence in TLJ was completely community serving & nothing else.
That was probably when I realized - any sort of 'vision' that typically fueled this series was gone. Any cohesive one, anyway. Once that cynicism set in, it was hard to not look at all of TLJ with that perspective, and ultimately it just turned me off of anything Star Wars related for the foreseeable future.
I do have a ton of criticism regarding arcs involving Rose or that Commander who was in charge of the Rebellion/Resistance for most of the movie, but none of it is new or really per-tenant to what i'm saying - these individual characters or moments, which are tremendous misfires in my eyes, wouldn't kill my interest in SW moving forward on their own; if I could live through the age of Jar-Jar Binks, I could live through a few silly characters & questionable writing. Its just looking at all of it as one big package that makes me finally decide "Ya know what? No thanks."
My take. Overall I like the film, but I really enjoyed Finn (and what little we got of Poe) in the first film and wish they'd been handled better here.
You know I wonder what the whole purpose of Holdo actually was. She takes over duties from Leia and it takes just a few seconds until she has a conversation with Poe. And this whole conversation makes her look like a total b..., we are clearly supposed to be on Poe's side and if you are on Holdo's side at that point then I don't understand you. So then later when it turns out she had a plan (which still doesn't make her treatment of Poe and the others right because she lost control of the ppl she was supposed to command), then what are you supposed to feel? It didn't change my opinion on her and then she sacrifices herself and for once I'm glad she is dead.
I don't get it. You introduce an annoying ass character, then let her sacrifice herself and that's it? Let's pretend Holdo didn't exist: Leia would be in command instead. She and Poe get along well and even though Poe does not always do what he's supposed to, I doubt he would've taken the risk and send Finn/Rose to Canto Bight. So in the end Holdo is just there to make Finn/Rose go to Canto Bight.
Holdo is an awful character, I'd rather watch a straight up Jar Jar Binks movie.
I don't get it. You introduce an annoying ass character, then let her sacrifice herself and that's it? Let's pretend Holdo didn't exist: Leia would be in command instead. She and Poe get along well and even though Poe does not always do what he's supposed to, I doubt he would've taken the risk and send Finn/Rose to Canto Bight. So in the end Holdo is just there to make Finn/Rose go to Canto Bight.
Holdo is an awful character, I'd rather watch a straight up Jar Jar Binks movie.
I think it's a great, but flawed movie (for reasons already spelled out well here). It definitely feels like the "A" plot with Luke, Rey and Kylo was the most polished. It's well executed and Disillusioned Luke is a bold choice to go, since it explores something new about his character, and it compliments the Rey/Kylo plot well. It also leads to my favorite scene in the movie with Luke and Yoda.
On the other hand, I understand the disappointment people have with Luke's treatment in the movie, and I respect their opinions. It felt like he had already been through the crucible in the OT and come out of it a fully-realized hero, so his treatment in TLJ can feel like a betrayal of the character. I can only say that as someone who's entered mid-life, I related a lot to Luke and got where he was coming from. YMMV.
The "B" and "C" plots feel more like first or second drafts that could've been executed better with a few minor tweaks. I know what they're going for with the Finn/Rose plot, but it just feels like it's missing important character beats for Finn, so the overall storyline lacks impact. The Holdo/Poe storyline feels like it got the least amount of attention and should've gone through a few more revisions. At a minimum, it really requires Holdo telling a demoralized and stunned unit that she has a plan. The drama from the entire plot revolves around her withholding information that she could easily reveal, which is a lazy way of inducing conflict.
I get why Johnson stuck to his guns and didn't modify his story in response to Fisher's death, but watching the movie, it's easy to see that he didn't really need to make a lot of changes to accommodate it. At a minimum he could've had Luke not disappear at the end and kept his fate ambiguous going into IX. He could've also kept the Holdo plot largely intact, except have someone else make the suicide run at Snoke's ship. But at this point, wondering what could've been is a useless exercise and it's really Abrams' problem to deal with now.
Ultimately, even though I really enjoyed TLJ and I've seen it several times, I'm not really anticipating the next movie, since TLJ feels like a conclusion and anything that comes after would be an epilogue. And quite frankly, I really don't care if the Resistance wins or not. From what we saw in the OT and how things shook out, any victory the Resistance achieves would be hollow. In undercutting the victory our heroes achieved in the OT, they've also undercut their own.
On the other hand, I understand the disappointment people have with Luke's treatment in the movie, and I respect their opinions. It felt like he had already been through the crucible in the OT and come out of it a fully-realized hero, so his treatment in TLJ can feel like a betrayal of the character. I can only say that as someone who's entered mid-life, I related a lot to Luke and got where he was coming from. YMMV.
The "B" and "C" plots feel more like first or second drafts that could've been executed better with a few minor tweaks. I know what they're going for with the Finn/Rose plot, but it just feels like it's missing important character beats for Finn, so the overall storyline lacks impact. The Holdo/Poe storyline feels like it got the least amount of attention and should've gone through a few more revisions. At a minimum, it really requires Holdo telling a demoralized and stunned unit that she has a plan. The drama from the entire plot revolves around her withholding information that she could easily reveal, which is a lazy way of inducing conflict.
I get why Johnson stuck to his guns and didn't modify his story in response to Fisher's death, but watching the movie, it's easy to see that he didn't really need to make a lot of changes to accommodate it. At a minimum he could've had Luke not disappear at the end and kept his fate ambiguous going into IX. He could've also kept the Holdo plot largely intact, except have someone else make the suicide run at Snoke's ship. But at this point, wondering what could've been is a useless exercise and it's really Abrams' problem to deal with now.
Ultimately, even though I really enjoyed TLJ and I've seen it several times, I'm not really anticipating the next movie, since TLJ feels like a conclusion and anything that comes after would be an epilogue. And quite frankly, I really don't care if the Resistance wins or not. From what we saw in the OT and how things shook out, any victory the Resistance achieves would be hollow. In undercutting the victory our heroes achieved in the OT, they've also undercut their own.
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Holdo was right from the begining. Saying she acted like a "b" is a pretty unnecessary ugly comment.
She was shown to be a confident tough leader who had the right plan to save them while Poe was the overly esger hot shot who couldnt check his own ego.
Holdo was awesome and a badass in this film, beginning to end. Laura Dern killed it.
It is never once implied in the movie it is a map Luke left. It is a map of all the Jedi temples with the earliest hidden ones as the missing piece. That is why the FO had all but the missing piece. Its why the hyperspace line on the map shows it connect to various planets.
If it was a map Luke left why did Kylo say they have most of the map, that they pulled it from the old Empire archives?
The intention was always it was a map to the temple, not a map Luke left. JJ didnt even let that be open to interpretation. He shut it down quick in 2015 when asked about the map.
It's weird that you say that because the writing essentially rewards him for it. It's one of the biggest disappointments for me. In 2018 we dont need such a blatantly stupid male protagonist being rewarded for being handsome and likable while acting like an ass.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi is the best Star Wars movie ever made. I'd put it up there alongside Jaws and Raiders of the Lost Ark as one of my top 3 favorite modern blockbuster (starting with Jaws in '75) films of all time.
It is fucking gorgeous.
God damn this is one beautiful film.
Those shorts look awesome and I'm REALLY happy that I saw this in cinema, for a smaller TV screen don't make those shot justice
Anyway, as a casual moviegoer I like The Last Jedi for how surprising the story is at time! For while I love the Marvel movies more, they are not as surprising to watch, for the heroes always win in the end, so it is refreashing to watch a movie which doesn't do that and therefore surprise me!
Weren't Infinity War also a movie that let the heroes "lose" like The Last Jedi? Well the different could be that it was based on a old comic book story and therefore the fans knew what would happen and were prepared for the heroes to "lose".