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TacoSupreme

Member
Jul 26, 2019
1,714
I wish I could feel that way, but when I gave it a play a few years ago I was shocked by how aged it felt compared to Quake, a game that released more than two full years earlier.

I was pretty much only a PC gamer back in the late 90s though, so nostalgia probably plays a role in that feeling. A Link to the Past feels a lot more fresh and timeless to me than OoT.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
The basic structure of the game is quite literally timeless. It follows the 3/7 beats setup that many classic fables and fairytales have. Phenomenal game, even today.
Yeah, believe it or not but there were actually multiple directors and writers on the game, and in Iwata asks they do talk about how much they considered in the writing process.

I think people knee jerk too quickly to the fact that there's certain silly beats in the story (like Ganondorf getting his way because of Zelda's plan and little else) but they really did create a layered story anyway, that is on one hand about good versus evil and on another about the coming of age and the implications of "time".
 

Tochtli79

Member
Jun 27, 2019
5,777
Mexico City
It's close to a perfect game for me. The world is just varied enough, the story is simple but pulls off a few good twists, the dungeons are probably the best in the series, characters are memorable, and it just draws you into its world so well. I really hope a version of it comes to the Switch.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,529
Yeah, probably. There's plenty of ways it could be updated, but no game is perfect. But people from any generation can enjoy it. My nephew played the game for the first time back when it came out on 3DS. He was maybe 12 years old at the time and he loved it.

It's like a good old movie. Yeah it's in black and white, but the full package outweighs the constraints of the time period.
 

Lord Vatek

Banned
Jan 18, 2018
21,507
Graphically, absolutely not. It's still solid in terms of gameplay and story, though.

It's far from my favorite game (or even Zelda game) but the 3DS version can still put up a decent fight.
 

Andromeda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,844
Yes, it's still a great game. But it was so magical when it released. Nothing came close to this.
 

deadbass

Member
Oct 27, 2017
979
Finished my replay a couple weeks ago and totally agree. It's not my favourite Zelda, but I love a lot about it, and when you consider how well it still plays today, it's quite impressive. The story and the mood of the game are very specific in a way that Majora's Mask I think builds on, rather than changes entirely (I think both the N64 games have a similar weirdness and sadness about them). I continue to be impressed with the design of all the dungeons and bosses every time I play through it. The only one I don't love is the Shadow Temple because I'm a little baby when it comes to horror/creepiness in games. The Spirit Temple and the Forest Temple really stand out as timeless examples of lore/mood/design.

Also love that Ganondorf's theme gets louder as you climb the tower because he's actually just sitting there with his cape on playing the organ.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,060
Yes, it is still great to play. It's a fun game that is very affecting. FWIW the first time I played it was Wii era.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
They do, but that makes their upbeat moments stick that much better in contrast. TP went too far in the grey and dour direction and the whole game felt off to me, with its saving grace being the sassy sidekick.

I feel like both games have moods emblematic of the times they were made. I feel like a lot of games that are meloncholy in the same way OoT and MM are existed around that time. Final Fantasy VII and Panzer Dragoon Saga both give me similar feelings as OoT regarding that weird, slightly down settings that I really like. TP by comparison feels caked in it, it's used much less subtly and matches the contemporary mood of games from around that time as well. TP totally feels like it comes from the same era as something like the first Gears of War in terms of mood and style.
 
Oct 28, 2017
27,069
I think Breath of the Wild is a better game over all however, as Zelda games go, there is none better. A Masterpiece. It is the equivalent of games going Super Sayian. A paradigm shift in what it means to go on an adventure.


And it still has the very best ending of any video game I have ever played.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,318
I don't know why you'd compare a game that came out in 2011 to 1998, but I wouldn't consider "simple" and "clunky" synonyms.

The thread title asks the question is OoT really timeless so comparing it to newer games (both later Zelda games and games from entirely different series) seemed apropos. Likewise if someone made a thread asking if Chrono Trigger was really timeless saying that the combat is easy and lacks the depth of newer entries in the genre would be an appropriate criticism. And yes, I realize the irony of someone who makes a living by making nostalgic games not having much nostalgia for older games himself. :)
 

Mekanos

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,120
I feel like both games have moods emblematic of the times they were made. I feel like a lot of games that are meloncholy in the same way OoT and MM are existed around that time. Final Fantasy VII and Panzer Dragoon Saga both give me similar feelings as OoT regarding that weird, slightly down settings that I really like. TP by comparison feels caked in it, it's used much less subtly and matches the contemporary mood of games from around that time as well. TP totally feels like it comes from the same era as something like the first Gears of War in terms of mood and style.

I feel like a lot of Japanese media at the turn of the century has that sort of moody vibe you're grokking at. I could speculate why (bubble bursting maybe), but I really enjoy it as well. It's especially apparent in video games of that era because technical limitations meant the games were less populated with NPCs so they feel emptier and more isolating.
 

SharpX68K

Member
Nov 10, 2017
10,514
Chicagoland
What if, in 1996, Nintendo released the N64 but it was as powerful as the GameCube was. Note, it's still 6-9 months later than Project Reality was going to ship (Christmas 1995).

This Nintendo 64 with GameCube graphics, CPU and RAM are complimented by a very fast CD-ROM drive (16-24x speed) so loading times are comparable to GameCube's mini DVDs in 2001.

Price: $299 instead of N64's launch price of $199, and the same as PS1 in 1995

And lets say that the Zelda game Nintendo releases in late 1998 is Twilight Princess, and it looks and plays exactly like it really did on GameCube in 2006

Would your mind be blown going from SNES ALttP in 1991/1992 to Twilight Princess 7 years later, but still 8 years before its actual release.

So you're not only experiencing a 3D Zelda for the first time, but you're also getting a world that much larger than Ocarina if Time, in top of 6th gen console graphics instead of what 5th gen games looked like (OoT and MM on N64).

Would Twilight Princess in 1998 be as "timeless" a game and a Zelda experience as Ocarina actually was for many of you who feel it definitely was then?
 
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Claire Delune

10 Years in the Making
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,279
Greater Seattle Area
Even at the time, I was utterly baffled by the GAME IF THE CENTURY hype. It was a great game, but it also had a lot of flaws of varying depths and in retrospect introduced some things that were utterly detrimental to the series such as the low-rent knock-off Muppet character design of NPCs and a downright insulting reward for taking the time to collect all of some useless item.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
I think Breath of the Wild is a better game over all however, as Zelda games go, there is none better. A Masterpiece. It is the equivalent of games going Super Sayian. A paradigm shift in what it means to go on an adventure.

I think BotW is like the calculus of zelda games: it's something whose greatness can't really be understood in a singular game. Much of why BotW is amazing is how expertly it subverts expectations. Much of the surprise in BotW came from seeing how they DIDN'T do conventional Zelda stuff. it's a game that expects you to understand how games like OoT worked, because it's super interesting to see how BotW works in a completely different way but accomplishes much of the same goals.

BotW is my favorite zelda game, hands down, but I don't think I could have enjoyed it nearly as much had I not been blown away by OoT years prior. I'll give a weird comparison, but back when OoT was released, online it was a major discussion point at the time how it was the first Zelda game without any semblance of the Zelda theme (even Zelda II's overworld theme begins the same way as the original Zelda theme). Lots of people mentioned how they went the entire game expecting it to show up, and were disappointed when it didn't, because that song had become an ingrained tradition in Zelda at that point. The expectation for something resembling it, and lack of said expectations being met, actually was kind of disappointing in OoT. I remember it being such a talking point, that it actually was mentioned in previews for MM that the Zelda theme would be returning.

By contrast, BotW has extremely sparse music. Much of its soundtrack is environmental and subtle. I played BotW for like 60 hours (I found all the memory moments organically, without asking for help, just by lining up the monuments in the photos with the map, which is an *amazing* way to play), and was right smack in the middle of the game. I was riding a horse at night, when out of the blue, the Zelda theme started playing. It's this one:



It blew me away. One of my favorite gaming moments of all time. The precise set of conditions for the theme to play are random enough (ride a horse at midnight) that you can go for so long without finding it. But it fucked with my expectations. Prior to finding it, I thought BotW was just going to be like OoT, not have the theme, since BotW had already shucked off so much of the standard Zelda formula. That subversion of expectations, painted by games prior, made what is otherwise a pretty mellow and short remix of the Zelda theme into something much more significant.
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
I feel like a lot of Japanese media at the turn of the century has that sort of moody vibe you're grokking at. I could speculate why (bubble bursting maybe), but I really enjoy it as well. It's especially apparent in video games of that era because technical limitations meant the games were less populated with NPCs so they feel emptier and more isolating.

The way I describe the mood is that the world in those games really are sad, depressing places to live in, but the actual characters in theme don't seem depressed. They seem like normal people. Not in terms of depth or anything, but their dialog and actions aren't on and on about how dark and depressing their world is, kind of like how we are right now, IRL, regarding our planet. It's like people living their lives as normally as possible in a dreary world.

TP and gears and other games of that era feel much more overt in their depression. The actions of the characters feel like they're nostalgically longing for a better time, or that they're constantly taking in and thinking about how dark and depressing the world around them is. It's much more overt, and the drearyness is right in focus, where as in the games I mentioned above, it's more of a backdrop.
 
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CanUKlehead

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,393
I first played it on Gamecube, as I skipped the n64.

I dropped it soon after Adult Link. It was ok, but couldn't be bothered to finish so not timeless to me, in that sense.
 
Oct 28, 2017
27,069
I think BotW is like the calculus of zelda games: it's something whose greatness can't really be understood in a singular game. Much of why BotW is amazing is how expertly it subverts expectations. Much of the surprise in BotW came from seeing how they DIDN'T do conventional Zelda stuff. it's a game that expects you to understand how games like OoT worked, because it's super interesting to see how BotW works in a completely different way but accomplishes much of the same goals.

BotW is my favorite zelda game, hands down, but I don't think I could have enjoyed it nearly as much had I not been blown away by OoT years prior. I'll give a weird comparison, but back when OoT was released, online it was a major discussion point at the time how it was the first Zelda game without any semblance of the Zelda theme (even Zelda II's overworld theme begins the same way as the original Zelda theme). Lots of people mentioned how they went the entire game expecting it to show up, and were disappointed when it didn't, because that song had become an ingrained tradition in Zelda at that point. The expectation for something resembling it, and lack of said expectations being met, actually was kind of disappointing in OoT. I remember it being such a talking point, that it actually was mentioned in previews for MM that the Zelda theme would be returning.

By contrast, BotW has extremely sparse music. Much of its soundtrack is environmental and subtle. I played BotW for like 60 hours (I found all the memory moments organically, without asking for help, just by lining up the monuments in the photos with the map, which is an *amazing* way to play), and was right smack in the middle of the game. I was riding a horse at night, when out of the blue, the Zelda theme started playing. It's this one:



It blew me away. One of my favorite gaming moments of all time. The precise set of conditions for the theme to play are random enough (ride a horse at midnight) that you can go for so long without finding it. But it fucked with my expectations. Prior to finding it, I thought BotW was just going to be like OoT, not have the theme, since BotW had already shucked off so much of the standard Zelda formula. That subversion of expectations, painted by games prior, made what is otherwise a pretty mellow and short remix of the Zelda theme into something much more significant.




Fantastic Point. I too remember the talk about the lack of the OG Zelda Theme in OOT and initially I was disappointed however, the subverted expectations lead me to like the new overworld theme better and now it is my favorite of all themes. BOTW is, for me the greatest video game I have ever played however in that context it eclipses what Zelda games are and I am grateful to have played over 300 hours HOWEVER, the things that I love about Zelda games in general is done better by every other Zelda game including LTTP and ALBW. It's bigger better and worse all at the same time. I still have another 20 hours in BOTW before I move on to actually beating the game and that is a testament unto itself.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
No, not at all. I can't play it anymore. Windwaker on the other hand is very much playable.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,529
The thread title asks the question is OoT really timeless so comparing it to newer games (both later Zelda games and games from entirely different series) seemed apropos. Likewise if someone made a thread asking if Chrono Trigger was really timeless saying that the combat is easy and lacks the depth of newer entries in the genre would be an appropriate criticism. And yes, I realize the irony of someone who makes a living by making nostalgic games not having much nostalgia for older games himself. :)
Depth =/= quality

Likewise, comparing it to older/newer entries doesn't answer the question whether it's timeless or not. It merely shows the influences it borrowed and evolved into; a step in the evolution process. To be timeless, the subject in question has to be influential or inspirational in contemporary terms. Why is Ocarina of Time still considered a masterpiece today?
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,617
I think Breath of the Wild is a better game over all however, as Zelda games go, there is none better. A Masterpiece. It is the equivalent of games going Super Sayian. A paradigm shift in what it means to go on an adventure.

I think the main difference (to me) in the two Masterpieces is that it's harder to find ways to improve OOT (pretty much just update the graphics a little and fix the Water Temple, which the 3DS version did) than BOTW (lacking enemy, boss, and environment variety). You can add to BOTW and improve it, whereas I'm not sure you could add another dungeon or expanded overworld to OOT and make it 'better.'
 

Illusion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,407
the 3/7 beats structure is a classic narrative framing tool. It dates back to ancient days, even the bible references it. Things in classic western stories tend to come in beats of 3, then 7. Zelda OoT's first quest is "3" beats long -- 3 main dungeons:

Deku Tree
Dodongo's Dungeon
Jabu Jabu's Belly

which then opens up into the "real" meat of the game, which is 7 beats long:

Forest Temple
Fire Temple
Ice Cavern
Water Temple
Shadow temple
Spirit temple
Ganon's Castle

This is reinforced by the 3/7 macguffins that drive the game -- 3 emblems early on, 7 sages later. It's just a super classic framing device, that stands the test of time. Games feel weird when they break this mold -- people often say it's feels like Wind Waker is "missing a temple" early on because it bucks the 3 beats structure early on, and only gives us 2 macguffins.

7 beats is often less explored today, because of time considerations, except in things like books or games, but 3 beats is so common it's colloquially known as "the rule of three" in narration.


More on the historical significance of the rule of 3 (and seven): https://scholarworks.gvsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1409&context=honorsprojects

EDIT: Worth noting, LTTP follows this framing device as well.
Weird you count the Ice Cavern as a dungeon, ignoring the Well Dungeon that leads up to Shadow Temple. As the Ice Cavern leads to the Water. Or Gerudo Village to Spirit Temple, or even the Spirit Temple to the Spirit Temple.
 

night814

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
15,035
Pennsylvania
It is not a faultless game, but it is a flawless experience.

I hope that makes sense.
This is a great way to put it, it can be a little janky at times and it's certainly aged but God damn if it isn't still perfect to play. It's very similar to stuff like Mario World and MegaMan X to me; pure comfort food gaming.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,305
Disclaimer: I received Ocarina in 1998 as a Christmas gift as a 12-year-old. At the time of completing it for the first time, it became my favorite game of all time. It was an absolutely triumphant moment for gaming and it deserves all of the praise and accolades for its release in 1998. It was a magical, wonderful adventure for its time and it will always have a piece of my heart. Since then ... things have changed.

Is the game timeless? Absolutely not. I know it's difficult to remove the veil of nostalgia and to examine the game for it is in 2019 if you grew up with it, but in my opinion it just doesn't hold up. Having played countless action-adventure games in the 21 years since its release, it's very disappointing to come back and play again for any other reason than feeling warm & fuzzy by seeing the set pieces or events that blew my mind decades ago. Looking back, it's very clearly an attempt at a 3D version of Link to the Past, but with some remixed story beats.

The combat is effortless and without challenge. If you have any experience at all playing these kinds of games over the last 21 years, the only way that you're dying in this game is if you slip and take fall damage. Otherwise, you just hold your shield up and wait for the moment. Just wait wait wait and then the enemy will present it's butt to you and you can slice it up.

Puzzles? Slamming crystals with your sword and speedrunning to a temporarily safe platform is not a "puzzle". Entering FPS mode with your slingshot / bow to locate an eyeball is not a puzzle. Using your McGuffin item that conveniently works to unlock every pathway in your temple (and what do you know, the NEXT dungeon too! AW YEAH) is not puzzle solving. I will give the temples credit, though. They are fun to explore and poke around in, and provide a lot of fun from an exploration / path-clearing perspective.

Hyrule Field just ... exists. It's a huge, barren expanse with two Peahats and some Stalchildren. It's even worse when you become an adult and those disappear and are replaced by Poes. The only purpose of Hyrule Field is to eat up time as you jog from one end to the other to reach the interesting parts of the game. In fact, other than for purposes of jumping across one gap and collecting some Poes, Epona serves no purpose. Why would I bother riding through nothingness when I can just warp to my next location with my ocarina?

Again, the game was a masterpiece when it released, but it has certainly shown its age. It's one of most deserving titles of a FFVII-style remake to fully flesh out what could be a wonderful game in 2019 for new players or for old players that are ready to admit that it's lost its luster since 1998. The game has some very interesting bones and the framework would be easy to work with. However, it's just a complete slog of a game in 2019, and I struggle to think why anybody would want to play it for the first time.

Final note, I don't think that older games are incapable of remaining masterpieces as time goes on and as standards increase. For example ... Link to the Past, if released for the very time in our lives under a "Belda" type of name in 2019 would be cemented as a legendary Indie title alongside other giants like Hollow Knight and Celeste.
 

JustinBailey

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,596
The fact that in 2019 someone is making a thread and asking the question should be all anyone needs to know.

It is one of the most balanced experiences I've ever touched. Its balance across gameplay, sound, graphics, story is what truly sets it apart IMO.
 

secretanchitman

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,767
Chicago, IL
I *love* everything about this game, start to finish. It still remains my favorite game of all time!

The gameplay, graphics, music, sound effects, dungeons, puzzles, easter eggs, optional sidequests...just perfect.
 

Zipzoom

Member
May 27, 2019
399
the 3/7 beats structure is a classic narrative framing tool. It dates back to ancient days, even the bible references it. Things in classic western stories tend to come in beats of 3, then 7. Zelda OoT's first quest is "3" beats long -- 3 main dungeons:

Deku Tree
Dodongo's Dungeon
Jabu Jabu's Belly

which then opens up into the "real" meat of the game, which is 7 beats long:

Forest Temple
Fire Temple
Ice Cavern
Water Temple
Shadow temple
Spirit temple
Ganon's Castle

This is reinforced by the 3/7 macguffins that drive the game -- 3 emblems early on, 7 sages later. It's just a super classic framing device, that stands the test of time. Games feel weird when they break this mold -- people often say it's feels like Wind Waker is "missing a temple" early on because it bucks the 3 beats structure early on, and only gives us 2 macguffins.

7 beats is often less explored today, because of time considerations, except in things like books or games, but 3 beats is so common it's colloquially known as "the rule of three" in narration.


More on the historical significance of the rule of 3 (and seven): https://scholarworks.gvsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1409&context=honorsprojects

EDIT: Worth noting, LTTP follows this framing device as well.
didn't know. Thanks.
 

J_ToSaveTheDay

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
18,787
USA
The game is up there with games that I've managed to complete from start to finish a multitude of times. It's not #1, but it's not difficult for me to pick up and play and see through all the way to the finish.

I'm willing to attribute some of that to nostalgia but I really don't think it's all that difficult to expect people who have never played it to have a good time if they gave it a try. I don't think anything about it feels extremely off-putting in terms of controller feel, pacing, or even just the satisfaction of the puzzle solving loop.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
It almost felt new on the 3DS. Almost. The N64 Zeldas remain my favorites and I hope we see at least one more in that style.
Basically everyone I know who played it and got to the end came out and said, both new and old players; "The game was amazing."

I really think it's a case of what happens if you slam-dunk an ending because if you replace the finale in Ganondorf's Tower with a lame boss battle against, let's say a giant Toad, I think people would've been like "The game was pretty nice, but it's just alright."

OoT I feel is a testament to how video game composition matter, and I'm not talking about sound or even cinema necessary but also both; about how all things in a game is part of its composition and the way it focuses itself, including the way it chooses to end on the player, has an emotional impact on them, and though not objectively perfect OoT is pretty close to perfect, at least with composition.
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,932
It's still a very good game but in my case nostalgia certainly plays a role. I still hear the music from that game in my head almost daily.
Fugly graphics though. But that was the time. Hated first generation 3D graphics. Sort of charming and funny to look at nowadays.
 
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unicornKnight

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,163
Athens, Greece
It's a decent game now, most of it charm was because of the many things it introduced and how well made was for a 3D game with open worlds in 1998.

An hd remaster would be welcome but I'd prefer a remake, expanding the overworld a bit to today standards and adding more secrets to explore.
 

Jimnymebob

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,578
I absolutely understand how revolutionary this must've been, and I can certainly see why it's so beloved, but it was never my cup of tea. I never played TP, but I'd rank all the other 3D Zelda's higher than it, personally.

I think it's the same problem I have with FFVII, where it just kinda feels like a 2D game, but in 3D. Like, even though the formula is really good, it always felt very safe to me.

I can't credit it enough for things like its targeting system though. It was such a timeless mechanic.
 

wrowa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,372
The worst that can be said about it is that it's "too vanilla", which can't really be hold against a game that pioneered a lot of how action adventures are played and designed in 3D. The overall structure is rock solid and the dungeon designs great (maybe with the exception of the Water Temple...). The original N64 release obviously suffers from a constantly low framerate and blurry graphics, but the 3DS remake solves both of these problems while otherwise staying very true to the original. I'd say it holds up extraordinarily well, it's particularly mind boggling how great the dungeons hold up considering it was literally their first shot at designing them for 3D.

Playing it today you might not think that it's revolutionary and fantastic, since obviously a ton of games released since then that evolved on what OoT accomplished 20 years ago and more powerful hardware allows for more complex game design, but I think it's still very well playable and a more than enjoyable experience.
 
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SABO.

Member
Nov 6, 2017
5,870
Ah yes, a thread where we take good things OoT did good that could also be perceived as bad things in a certain light.
 

Geobros

Member
Dec 31, 2018
670
I have finished it about 10 times and every time I play it I am stuck in Water Temple, wtf??? The game is awesome and really timeless!!
 

giapel

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,592
The 3DS version is effectively perfect. It's been long enough now for OOT to move into untouchable status along SMB, SMB3, LTTP, Super Metroid etc. where the revisionist backlash is not applicable anymore.
It's not going to be remade, it's perfect as it is.