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Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,730
Bear with me. This is a long one.

I know that Hecht has already made his preemptive defense that the scum team is gonna pounce on him today and try to lynch him but hey, town can do that as well.

Hecht day 1:

Early seeds planted on me and Dubs.

When asked for reasons, nah.

It was a joke post. I had one game where I outed a lot of scum on D1, I was referencing that. At the time I just picked names out of a hat, basically.

The Grizzly Train officially starts. No reasons either.

The next few are a doozy:

That's a lot of Grizzly votes. Almost like trying to keep a narrative going that everyone is voting Grizz left and right. Those many votes can't be wrong, right?
I explained this. Grizz was grasping at what seemed like straws at the time. A common scum tactic on D1 is to nitpick something to death and try for a mislynch - I thought Grizzly was doing that. Was I wrong? Sure.

And then, literally on the last minute of the day. Nah let's go with a tie maybe.
With the vote tool down, I thought fep had tied the vote, so I tried to get a last minute vote in to prevent a tie. Regardless, my vote wouldn't have tied it. Try again.

Hecht day 2:

Back to Dubs. Still nothing read wise.

Oh so it's guts. Ok then:

And here comes the claim:

Kaz immediately buys into it:

Yep, he was the only one. Nobody else did. At all.
Also he probably was the one that tried to kill the first night, since he was only Bulletproof. I assume the other mafia members have more useful things to do, like Lux's Roleblock.

This right here makes no sense. At all:

I asked this and then let it go at the time:

But after GF's flip i'm thinking scum shot him and not Hecht. In comes Hecht during the day with the fake claim that no one can really disprove without a lynch. A lot of town lean reads follow that hinge exclusively on believing a claim that is beneficial to scum and ultimately hurts town. I mean, i'm no expert, but if i were an X-BP townie and scum wasted a shot on me you can bet your ass i'd keep my mouth shut and hope for seconds. What i wouldn't do would be announce to scum i had more vest to go around so they could go shoot somewhere else, like say, the town watcher. Which misteriously died despite having BP as well.

This claim stinks no matter how you look at it.

More to come.

If scum targets someone and they don't die, they have two options. Assume it's a doctor or roleblocker, in which case they don't know what happened or who targeted them. Now, since I claimed BP, they know what happened.

I'll admit I took a gamble there. I claimed multi-shot BP/vests.

I only had one.

My having a BP strongly suggests the inclusion of a strongman.

I had hoped that it would bait a strong kill if scum was dumb enough to believe that I had more than one. It's incredibly rare for anyone to have multiples. With my vest gone, hopefully they'd try to strong-kill me, which means that they weren't using it on anyone else. Now obviously I didn't know that GF had a BP as well, or else I may have done something different. I don't know.

I guarantee 100% that GF was not targeted for a kill the first night unless there was also a vig that targeted them. Looking back at the reads during D1, I had a fair amount of people putting me in the "lean town" category (of those that provided reads, of course). Because of those, I was confident that I would be targeted N1 (not to mention that I tend to get shot early on when I'm Town. People don't like me sticking around).

And it's back to Dubs i guess. Why give reasons:

Then comes these exchanges:

Apparently looking at smaller numbers of people is more important than looking at a pretty obvious train meant to deflect from scum. When i suggested we should be looking at all the trains, the answer i get is no. Just a dismissive no. I get that's probably just Hecht being tired of interacting with me at the time. I get it, i was being pushy. But town should be pushy. Town Hecht should be interested in finding out what the hell was up with the Grizzly train, not trying to guide the game towards the other trains.

This is just common sense and the fact that you're arguing for it hard is suspect. Scum can easily hide off-train, especially on D1. Trying to "save" a member of the scum team, even if it's something great like a roleblocker, is a huge fucking risk. Lo and behold, Kaz and Lux were not on the train. Shocker.

And now it's on to me:

Unless they were protecting a 3-shot roleblocker ofc:

More of dubs and me. Just to see which one sticks:
Sure, I had multiple suspects. Hence both of you. At some point I'd love to see BOTH of your flips, but if one happens before the other, I don't really care the order.

God forbid I ask people to summarize something.

More of the same down there. There are literally no reasons given. Ever. Only vague shade.

My top two suspects split their vote within 3 minutes of each other? Yeah, looks suspect to me. I imagine this was the convo:
saenima: "Hey Dubs, my role is more powerful, and they'll probably be looking at the fep votes tomorrow if Kaz is lynched."
Dubs: "You're right. I'll vote fep, you vote Kaz. They couldn't possibly connect us both when we vote differently!"

Voting to lynch town. Again:

Kaz was DOA. fep was the only other major candidate at the time. Two flips is better than one, and it didn't look like Kaz was going to show up.

And finally.

Here we go again. Hecht literally gives more of a reason for first time reading Z-Beat as scum with the coasting accusation than he has given for the two players he's been pushing for the entire game. Remarkable.

And here the obvious preemptive defense starts, laying it pretty thick:

At this point i'm pretty convinced that Hecht is scum and will be pushing for my lynch today. He has the ball rolling already.

I don't have any investigative abilities, and anyone who does hasn't provided any info. So of course my reads are going to be on gut and votes. I explained why I was suspect of the people voting for me. You can call it self-preservation, but lynching scum helps everyone else too. The reasoning I have is that I was shot, scum got worried, and decided to throw shade at me in order to get rid of me that way.

This isn't that hard, but I appreciate you putting up a fight. Makes it more fun.
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
Move: Blue Room

before I forget, not sure if room voting is tied to the vote casting restrictions
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
92,492
here
I'd like to revisit briefly the day 1 Grizzly vote:

Grizzly (9 votes)
*Splinter - #925
turmoil7 - #1,568
Aeleus - #1,592
WhySoDevious - #1,617
weemadarthur - #1,626
SaucyKaz - #1,652
Hecht - #1,670
Kitsunelaine - #1,671
flatearthpandas - #1,696

One scum was already found in here, and it was the push that saved Lux. Do we think there's more than one scum hiding here besides Kaz? Kaz voted relatively late compared to some of the other votes.

Would it be too obvious for more than one scum to pressure this Grizzly lynch, or was a scum parked on it already when the ball started rolling?

I'm not so certain myself. I think scum would want to avoid a lynch of a scum PR day one, so I suspect at least one other scum is on this list.
 

Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,730
Oh that's right Kaz was on-train, only Lux was off train. I think I was confusing my initial reads of saenima and dubs being off-train
 

Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,730
I'd like to revisit briefly the day 1 Grizzly vote:

Grizzly (9 votes)
*Splinter - #925
turmoil7 - #1,568
Aeleus - #1,592
WhySoDevious - #1,617
weemadarthur - #1,626
SaucyKaz - #1,652
Hecht - #1,670
Kitsunelaine - #1,671
flatearthpandas - #1,696

One scum was already found in here, and it was the push that saved Lux. Do we think there's more than one scum hiding here besides Kaz? Kaz voted relatively late compared to some of the other votes.

Would it be too obvious for more than one scum to pressure this Grizzly lynch, or was a scum parked on it already when the ball started rolling?

I'm not so certain myself. I think scum would want to avoid a lynch of a scum PR day one, so I suspect at least one other scum is on this list.

I think it's a good assumption that scum does exist on that list, but at most I would say one more. "Saving" a scum, on D1, even if it's a PR, is very very very risky
 

Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,730
On that list I'd probably go

Scum
wee
Kitsune
Whysodevious
Splinter
Turmoil7
Town
 

Fat4all

Woke up, got a money tag, swears a lot
Member
Oct 25, 2017
92,492
here
What are the odds that a scum voted for Kaz late Day 2, knowing Kaz wouldn't be back in time to save themselves, to try and make themselves look better?
 

Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,730
What are the odds that a scum voted for Kaz late Day 2, knowing Kaz wouldn't be back in time to save themselves, to try and make themselves look better?
Hmm. Maybe decent, but looking at the last votes, it's Aeleus and turmoil7, who I currently townread. Same with Stuart. It's probably likely that they had votes in place in probably the middle of the pack or off-train. Early on they wouldn't know that Kaz wouldn't be there, so it's unlikely they started that train.
 

WhySoDevious

Member
Oct 31, 2017
8,449
What are the odds that a scum voted for Kaz late Day 2, knowing Kaz wouldn't be back in time to save themselves, to try and make themselves look better?
That's why I asked what were the odds of scum knowing that he wouldn't be back that day.

Though, to be fair, if I had been around at end of Day2, I would have considered changing my vote to Kaz just so that we didn't lose one more person that day, like someone suggested.

The odds of FEP and Kaz being both town were higher than one of them being scum.
 

WhySoDevious

Member
Oct 31, 2017
8,449
By the way, I feel really really sick. I dunno if I'll go to work tomorrow. If that's the case, my participation will be low this day.

I'll still read an try to respond - I just won't be so quick to do so.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,721
How about early FEP? He looked scummy at the time but was barely an option until people started jumping on that vote.
 

Stuart444

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,068

Stuart444

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,068
Only noticed that when I went back to look at the votes after seeing this:

I'd like to revisit briefly the day 1 Grizzly vote:

Grizzly (9 votes)
*Splinter - #925
turmoil7 - #1,568
Aeleus - #1,592
WhySoDevious - #1,617
weemadarthur - #1,626
SaucyKaz - #1,652
Hecht - #1,670
Kitsunelaine - #1,671
flatearthpandas - #1,696

One scum was already found in here, and it was the push that saved Lux. Do we think there's more than one scum hiding here besides Kaz? Kaz voted relatively late compared to some of the other votes.

Would it be too obvious for more than one scum to pressure this Grizzly lynch, or was a scum parked on it already when the ball started rolling?

I'm not so certain myself. I think scum would want to avoid a lynch of a scum PR day one, so I suspect at least one other scum is on this list.

when I looked at the votes after Kaz.
 

Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,730
On that Grizz vote:





Based on the order of these posts, Hecht tied the vote between Lux and Grizzly.

Yes Kits and Feps (who we know is town now) were the last two on Grizzly but Hecht based on this is the one that tied the votes which would have helped save Lux.

Just something to think about.
I had a couple votes like that. I wouldn't want the day to actually end in a tie, but forcing a tie earlier, before there's a chance of turbo or day end, forces people to make decisions.
 

Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,730
Actually looking back that was when the vote count and what Brazil was saying was screwed up. If you look at fireblend's vote count it was 8-6, then there are no votes until my vote. I didn't think I was tying that one
 

Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,730
Shit now I'm confused. Trying to think wtf was running through my head. 8-6 would've tied it, but that was wrong. I knew fep was around so I want to say I was forcing him to choose
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,721
Shit now I'm confused. Trying to think wtf was running through my head. 8-6 would've tied it, but that was wrong. I knew fep was around so I want to say I was forcing him to choose
You jumped over, then he did his little shuffle, then you tried to get back on Lux before the day ended when you noticed. If memory serves.
 

Stuart444

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,068
Well the thing is, it was 4 minutes to the end of the day, forcing quick decisions like that is what got feps looking guilty.

It's why I'm not saying you're scum just for this alone, but it's something for people to keep in mind I feel.
 

Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,730
Well the thing is, it was 4 minutes to the end of the day, forcing quick decisions like that is what got feps looking guilty.

It's why I'm not saying you're scum just for this alone, but it's something for people to keep in mind I feel.
Well the thing is, it was 4 minutes to the end of the day, forcing quick decisions like that is what got feps looking guilty.

It's why I'm not saying you're scum just for this alone, but it's something for people to keep in mind I feel.
i didn't have anything particularly against fep, I would've done that for anyone who was waiting for the last minute to vote (though granted he tried voting but for some reason his votes weren't counting).
 

Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,730
Also if I was scum, lux could've been an infinite bulletproof godfather roleblocking role cop and I'm not gonna pull shit last second to save his ass on freaking D1
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
Also if I was scum, lux could've been an infinite bulletproof godfather roleblocking role cop and I'm not gonna pull shit last second to save his ass on freaking D1

Considering feps was a late-day bus (as far as I recall) isn't that what you're accusing of scum doing?

I think it's a good assumption that scum does exist on that list, but at most I would say one more. "Saving" a scum, on D1, even if it's a PR, is very very very risky

I mean you're prefacing your reasons for suspicion with "I don't think anybody would do this" and to me that's a read that stinks. Not as in a prejorative, but as in "This smells really bad and I don't think I want to know what's underneath it"
 

Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,730
Considering feps was a late-day bus (as far as I recall) isn't that what you're accusing of scum doing?



I mean you're prefacing your reasons for suspicion with "I don't think anybody would do this" and to me that's a read that stinks. Not as in a prejorative, but as in "This smells really bad and I don't think I want to know what's underneath it"

I don't know if I'd call feps' lynch a "bus." The scenario at the end of D1 did provide people with ammo, unfortunately.

As for the other part, I'm just saying what I would do. To me it would be a bad play, and I'd wager to many players they'd feel the same. There's no reason to stick your neck out for a scum teammate and risk being associated with saving them, no matter what their PR is, that early in the game.
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
I don't know if I'd call feps' lynch a "bus." The scenario at the end of D1 did provide people with ammo, unfortunately.

As for the other part, I'm just saying what I would do. To me it would be a bad play, and I'd wager to many players they'd feel the same. There's no reason to stick your neck out for a scum teammate and risk being associated with saving them, no matter what their PR is, that early in the game.

Yeah but in having reads like this you're achnowledging you're suspecting people for reasons you think are dumb. How do you think that's going to convince anyone
 

Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,730
Also I have a list at the top of the page about the people on the Grizz train. And pretty much everyone on that list I read as null or better except for wee (kits being the null)
 

Hecht

Too damn tired
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,730
Yeah but in having reads like this you're achnowledging you're suspecting people for reasons you think are dumb. How do you think that's going to convince anyone
Wait what?

I don't think you are following me. I DO NOT think the people late on Grizz vote are scum, because I think that is a dumb move.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,721
Considering feps was a late-day bus (as far as I recall) isn't that what you're accusing of scum doing?



I mean you're prefacing your reasons for suspicion with "I don't think anybody would do this" and to me that's a read that stinks. Not as in a prejorative, but as in "This smells really bad and I don't think I want to know what's underneath it"
I was hesitant to move on to FEPs early in the phase, after the flip, simply because I didn't think it would take off. That said, there's more than enough in his actions to justify flipping him at that point. Especially knowing Kaz was likely going to flip as well.

I do think we should look at the early and mid votes on FEPs though (I say this knowing I am among the mid votes) as there could be scum hiding in there, trying to get the heat off Kaz with a more obvious target.
 

Kitsunelaine

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,382
...I'm still having fun here even if I completely miss things like this sometimes, but I wish I was better about this stuff.
 

turmoil7

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,181
Catching up, but heck your reads are so self centered, honestly I think nobody gives a damn about you
 

turmoil7

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,181
Catching up, but heck your reads are so self centered, honestly I think nobody gives a damn about you
And saenima the new player is into the meta of going after you? Sure you can always say his scummates told him, but honestly, scum doesn't babysit reads for their teammates in my experience, not on d2
 

*Splinter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,087
My top two suspects split their vote within 3 minutes of each other? Yeah, looks suspect to me. I imagine this was the convo:
saenima: "Hey Dubs, my role is more powerful, and they'll probably be looking at the fep votes tomorrow if Kaz is lynched."
Dubs: "You're right. I'll vote fep, you vote Kaz. They couldn't possibly connect us both when we vote differently!"
Hecht pls. I can't imagine this conversation has happened in any game ever run. Sometimes people just vote at roughly the same time.