The mental health of this community [Read Staff Post Before Posting]

collige · Feb 27, 2020

astro said:
By reducing amount of people who see it. People
do not tend to browse further back. Bumping keeps threads alive and allows new people to see them.

I suppose this is true to an extent, but I would also argue that after a certain point, having an influx of newer posters isn't going to be conductive to getting the OP out of a crisis. There's most eyes on the thread, sure, but given that your average OT poster isn't going to be a MH professional, it's hard to say what benefit keeping a thread on page 1 is to either the OP or the community as a whole. I don't have much in the way of personal experience on this though, so someone may be able to chime in with more info.

The way it see it is that ultimately, there's two different goals being discussed here:
-How can members going through a mental health crisis best be supported and kept out of imminent danger?
-How can OT as a whole be a more positive or less mentally taxing place to be in?

Those two goals intersect when someone makes a mental health crisis thread in OT. Obviously, the first issue is much more important in the short term, but on the same end, I think there has to be some kind of longer term policy where user have less of a chance of being greeted with a billboard of despair when visiting this forum.

Kyuuji said:
I think it’s important to consider the impact even if it’s decided the most effective route. Some seeing that a suicide related thread is instantly locked on creation might steady their hand in doing the same, not seeing the behind the scenes support given. Locking a thread is typically a moderation response to something deemed bad/inappropriate after all. I think it’s likely that changing to the instant-lock would dissuade some people from reaching out here at all. It’s whether they feel comfortable reaching out professionally in the first instance or whether that’s the encouragement they were seeking.

I think this points to a larger issue about how lockings are perceived in general. I know for me personally, it took a while to unlearn the association of a thread lock with a punitive action. I do think Era has been much better than GAF about communicating during locks, however.

Curler · Feb 27, 2020

I've been following the Corona Virus OT, and I think there things have been handled pretty well, regarding negative thoughts. While there IS a concern, posts involving "the world is ending!" are warned very quickly not to start that. People want legitimate information on there, and many wonder "should I be worried if I travel to xx?" When you are reading for real information and want to know more about the situation and your local area, those "WE ARE DOOMED!!" posts do NOT help the situation one bit, when it comes to an already tense situation at hand that CAN effect people on here and others they know.

A lot of those "we are screwed/world is over/etc" posts really add NOTHING to topics and make a lot of situations much worse, especially for people that are already fragile to begin with. It is hard to stay positive, but we should for those around us too. Random news stories like "baby gets shot" while, probably trying to start a conversation about gun control, I get why it would be locked because it's just an awful story, as it can effect people with negative thoughts even worse. There really is not much discussion to be had other than "that's awful". What is sad is when people do try and make a fun/silly thread and just... nothing goes on. I remember an OT was attempted once, after one of the usual "this place is negative" threads, and people got bored and left it after like, 3 pages. Make a topic of something bad that happened, and tons of pages will made. People just react more with the negativity, I guess.

But really, these "doomed" posts really are exhausting... That should be countered... somehow. Too much despair can be infectious.

I also saw this post after I wrote this out, and it echos a lot of the stuff I'm talking about. With point #2, there are plenty of posts that attack others opinions on stuff (even when it's not on the subject on politics) and can get pretty bad, insulting, and so on.

Chopchop said:
There are two recurring points among all the suicide thread OPs that we've seen recently:

1) I feel like the world is going to shit and there's nothing I can do about it.

2) I feel very alone.

Both of these things may be at least somewhat affected by trends on this forum.

#1 is likely excaberated by the endless stream of depressing news on the OT forum. There are a lot of threads that go something like "shitty person says/does shitty thing" or "something horrible happened", and there is no real discussion to be had on those threads besides raging at the people in question, or grieving at what was lost. This is exactly why threads reporting particularly bad news like a murder or plane crash or something are often locked in short order, which is a decision I agree with - there's not much discussion to be had about that news, and all they do is rile up negative emotions like anger, grief, despair, and so on.

While I believe there is value in keeping up with news to see what people are saying and doing, I also feel like there's been too much depressing news on this forum lately. You can load up the OT at any time of the day and there will always be at least two or three such threads, and that can wear on one's mental health, especially when they're already feeling down. So I think maybe it may be worth considering cracking down a little more on the endless stream of depressing news threads, or closing them after discussion peters out (which happens very quickly) to diminish their constant presence on the main page. Alternately, loop them into a continuous thread to again make them less dominant on the main page.

#2 may be related to how angry people are becoming, and how quickly they become incredibly hostile to each other at the slightest provocation. This one is IMO more of a general internet thing, and is related to how so much relationship advice is stereotypically "break up with that person", family/friend advice is "cut that person off", and so on, when such things are typically last resorts rather than the first thing you do.

Online, a very "it's us or them" mentality is encouraged, and whenever you're not 100% in agreement with someone or have the slightest issue with what they said, then sometimes people will instantly decide that you should be attacked just as hard as someone who 100% disagrees with them. The problem with this black-and-white mentality is that it's very isolating, because it encourages people to attack, burn bridges and shun each other first and ask questions later, if at all. It discourages people who want discussion on a discussion board, and instead fills it with people basically itching for a fight. It makes people afraid to ask questions or speak up about anything that is not already clearly in consensus. There is a real fear of being dogpiled on here, and that may be contributing to why people feel very alone, with no one to talk to.

astro · Feb 27, 2020

collige said:
I suppose this is true to an extent, but I would also argue that after a certain point, having an influx of newer posters isn't going to be conductive to getting the OP out of a crisis. There's most eyes on the thread, sure, but given that your average OT poster isn't going to be a MH professional, it's hard to say what benefit keeping a thread on page 1 is to either the OP or the community as a whole. I don't have much in the way of personal experience on this though, so someone may be able to chime in with more info.

The way it see it is that ultimately, there's two different goals being discussed here:
-How can members going through a mental health crisis best be supported and kept out of imminent danger?
-How can OT as a whole be a more positive or less mentally taxing place to be in?

Those two goals intersect when someone makes a mental health crisis thread in OT. Obviously, the first issue is much more important in the short term, but on the same end, I think there has to be some kind of longer term policy where user have less of a chance of being greeted with a billboard of despair when visiting this forum.

I think this points to a larger issue about how lockings are perceived in general. I know for me personally, it took a while to unlearn the association of a thread lock with a punitive action. I do think Era has been much better than GAF about communicating during locks, however.

This specific discussion regarding suicide and self harm threads has merit, but we cannot control the information people decide the share and I do not think it is our place to try to make OT a less mentally taxing place to be in by trying to control this as an overall idea.

If you feel you can post some positive threads to do that, you have that power.

Kyuuji · Feb 27, 2020

collige said:
I think this points to a larger issue about how lockings are perceived in general. I know for me personally, it took a while to unlearn the association of a thread lock with a punitive action. I do think Era has been much better than GAF about communicating during locks, however.

I agree, and perhaps I should have clarified that it wasn’t a knock on the mods. It’s worth considering how depression and feeling extremely low could influence that interpretation as well.

I wonder whether there’s also a risk of embarrassment on top of it, the thought of posting something that personal and it being locked. Strictly me considering it from what my thoughts might be were I thinking about making a thread with that rule in place (and having witnessed it).

mbpm · Feb 27, 2020

I thought it was a sign of how much the person trusts the community. They wouldn't do this in other places, so I used to see it as a positive sign for us.

Deception · Feb 27, 2020

The frequency of those types of threads is something i've noticed and it's alarming, to say the least. I don't ERA to be a place where positivity is a common thing, especially in Etcera since most threads are often about negative news stories or filled by posters with a nihilistic world view. I think we as a community should really come together and look to discuss more positive news stories and use our times uplifting one another rather than having constant passive aggressive conversations. But that's just my 2 cents.

John Doe · Feb 27, 2020

echoshifting said:
I appreciate the staff's responsiveness to this issue. I apologize if the suggestion I'm about to give has been posted, I haven't read the entire thread.

I don't think these threads should be locked, but I do think they should be made invite-only for posting as quickly as possible. Sometimes people post things that, although well-intentioned, could do harm to a person in this state of mind. Maybe put up a short staff post saying, if you want to post in this thread, report the op and request posting privileges. Then send a pm to the user that makes the request saying "don't post in such and such a manner, here are some tips on expressing empathy to a person in this state of mind, etc."

You might then even retain a list and just automatically invite posters who conducted themselves well in past threads. If someone strays outside the guidelines, their privileges are permanently removed for these threads. I'm not sure if this is feasible, but I've had it kicking around in my head for a bit so I thought I'd take the opportunity to put it out there. I'd like to see these threads become safer environments for those in need of emotional support.

I think this is a good suggestion. I also think that most people who post in suicide threads do so with good intentions. Perhaps an automoderator could make a post as soon as someone posts a thread about suicide with articles about how to discuss suicide and helpful links for both the person in that state of mind and the people willing to help them.

astro · Feb 27, 2020

Deception said:
The frequency of those types of threads is something i've noticed and it's alarming, to say the least. I don't ERA to be a place where positivity is a common thing, especially in Etcera since most threads are often about negative news stories or filled by posters with a nihilistic world view. I think we as a community should really come together and look to discuss more positive news stories and use our times uplifting one another rather than having constant passive aggressive conversations. But that's just my 2 cents.

Again: we ALL have the power to make this place more positive... by posting more positive threads and actively posting in them to keep them afloat.

When was the was positive/fun thread you made? Can you think of anything to create today?

Kittens McMittens · Feb 27, 2020

Nepenthe said:
I'm not going to respond to the mental health side of things because I'm not a professional nor closely related enough to this issue to offer insight.

When it comes to the general atmosphere of the forum however, I agree with people that ERA is dour. However, I've come to terms with the belief- after years of moderating- that I don't think it's something staff alone can fix. I can't change people's intent to post negative news, nor can I change people's intent to post snarky or mean-spirited responses. We're glorified clean-up crew; almost everything we do is reactive. I do try my best however to post threads that I think lean towards positive and interesting when I get the urge to do so, but even then sometimes that either backfires or I have to figure out how to navigate some snark, which gets exhausting.

It's as I said before in another thread regarding political defeatism: I don't understand how those who champion freedom and liberation- generally progressive ideals- trend towards the most negative and cynical attitudes imaginable. I also don't understand- even as someone old enough to remember having played Duck Hunt- why the fuck gamers get so bent out of shape over non-preferred consoles and games performing well (well, I can but different lecture for a different time.) This isn't to downplay our political and cultural landscape of course- I'm as angry as the next person- but rather a plea to not let these things dictate your entire reality, to remind people that good things and experiences can continue to exist, that those things have value, and that it's okay to let others perceive that value without butting in that you think certain things are worthless. We should cherish our passions and use them for inspiration, not turn them into battlegrounds.

I'm going to continue to try and make topics that I think are positive (have an idea coming up soon once I finish the research) and just as well we have some fun events planned to try and relieve tension. Also count me as a champion of nonsense/silly threads like the pizza one.

But ultimately the atmosphere of the community is going to come down primarily on, well, the wider community. Those who want a nicer ERA will have to live by example and post as they wish ERA to be. But I won't lie: if you can find a way to make a community of hardcore gamers prioritize positivity above negativity, then please tell me....

Actually, don't. Sell it to Silicon Valley for millions. Just credit me somewhere in the patent.

Honestly, I think the community OTs are the best part of this forum. General gaming / etecera threads can quickly degenerate.

TheLostBigBoss said:
The issue isn't avoiding "bad news", the issue is the constantly overdramatic, nihilistic editorialization by people on ERA that floods threads. And when you have a portion (potentially sizable) of the population that specifically gets their "informed" opinions from ERA, you get people crafting views and opinions from literally uninformed shit posts thinking it's a fair interpretation of events to consume.

And I heavily disagree with the underlined. ERA is to a lot of people the only place they routinely post and visit. It's completely reasonable that ERA can be compounding, to what ever degree, the issues they face because they are consuming it at face value, and then turn around to seek help on the very forum without understanding ERA is a net-negative in their life.

I feel compelled to ask this question given the manner of your participation in this thread. Don't feel like you have to answer if you don't want to, but really: have you ever experienced suicidal ideation?

As someone who has, and as someone who's known many people who have (indeed, almost all my closest friends have), I don't know anyone who became suicidal because of the news, or because of the tone of an online forum. Quite honestly, the tone of the post you just made reads like someone who has absolutely no direct experience of serious depression at all.

If I'm misunderstanding you then I'm sorry. If your experience is that you became depressed due to participation in an online forum, then I understand. I just think it's a very unusual situation that I've never encountered before.

Deception · Feb 27, 2020

astro said:
Again: we ALL have the power to make this place more positive... by posting more positive threads and actively posting in them to keep them afloat.

When was the was positive/fun thread you made? Can you think of anything to create today?

I don't post many threads in general but I would say my threads about a 70/30 split on good news/fun threads and bad stories. But again, was there a need for you to be so antagonistic? This is how most of my interactions go on here and most of the time I just don't bother responding since it's not worth the effort.

collige · Feb 27, 2020

astro said:
This specific discussion regarding suicide and self harm threads has merit, but we cannot control the information people decide the share and I do not think it is our place to try to make OT a less mentally taxing place to be in by trying to control this as an overall idea.

Oh definitely, I think any change has to come from staff as they're the only people with the power to change both the rules and the technology that Era is built on.

Kyuuji said:
I agree, and perhaps I should have clarified that it wasn’t a knock on the mods. It’s worth considering how depression and feeling extremely low could influence that interpretation as well.

I wonder whether there’s also a risk of embarrassment on top of it, the thought of posting something that personal and it being locked. Strictly me considering it from what my thoughts might be were I thinking about making a thread with that rule in place (and having witnessed it).

I think it could definitely play into it. I know that for myself, the mild anxiety of being an OP discourages me from making threads in general so if I was in a situation where I felt I needed to make one for my own health, it would be an even bigger factor. In the case where threads do get locked though, I think well written and empathetic lock messages help mitigate the issue.

The Unsent · Feb 27, 2020

Alienous said:
Yeah, I think the structure of EtcetEra is an issue. I think it would be better split into two - Entertainment and World News. As it stands the same place you visit to hear about the latest James Bond trailer is also the place where you're reminded the world is terrible.

That would also make it less of a miscellaneous pool of everything that isn't about games. So hopefully mental health or relationship discussion would firmly find its place in those threads.

I don't agree with putting issues in its own forum because I've seen it suggested or another forum where Trump supporters want that because they think it would it put all the "whining" social/election/climate change/whatever in one place. They don't want people to ruin their fun with issues.

Having more neutral thread titles and moderation there might be good though, as long as the issues aren't being squashed.

astro · Feb 27, 2020

collige said:
Oh definitely, I think any change has to come from staff as they're the only people with the power to change both the rules and the technology that Era is built on.

I think it could definitely play into it. I know that for myself, the mild anxiety of being an OP discourages me from making threads in general so if I was in a situation where I felt I needed to make one for my own health, it would be an even bigger factor. In the case where threads do get locked though, I think well written and empathetic lock messages help mitigate the issue.

And I don't think it's the staff's place to do that, either. The members should be allowed to discuss what they want to. If you want more positivity, you can post more threads if you want to.

Deception said:
I don't post many threads in general but I would say my threads about a 70/30 split on good news/fun threads and bad stories. But again, was there a need for you to be so antagonistic? This is how most of my interactions go on here and most of the time I just don't bother responding since it's not worth the effort.

I was no being antagonistic, I was suggesting positive action. If you want things to change you literally have the power to help make that happen whenever you want.

kamineko · Feb 27, 2020

I'm certainly wouldn't dare speak on behalf of mentally ill people, but for myself:

I'm a psychiatrically disabled person. I got my disability without a hearing, which is highly unusual for an able-bodied person. I am no stranger to suicidal ideation--or activities, for that matter.

I find the cry for help threads troubling and upsetting. Like, I don't mind talking to someone about their problems because I can relate, but it's different looking at the threads.

They take me back, for one thing. For another, I know they wouldn't help me. Again, speaking for me.

I also worry that such OP's can become branded, being recalled as "the suicide poster."

Ultimately, the goodwill of neurotypical people is nice, but not always helpful.

I also want to say that mental illness is a disease, and while external factors certainly can exacerbate things, I have never met anyone who became suicidal because of another goddamned trump (e: star wars?) thread.

It's always kind of weird to see well people talking about us as if they know us better than we know ourselves

Solid Snake · Feb 27, 2020

This website is negative.

Just look at the Star Wars topics. Why does something like Star Wars always have to result in two sides being bitter towards each other?

I've never experienced that type of thing. Not even as a kid in school, I never saw two sides accusing each other of things like being man children and racists just for disliking The Last Jedi.

Do people here really think that's normal real world behaviour? I can't imagine everyone in an office arguing backwards and forwards over Star Wars but my actual experience is some people said they liked the latest movie, some say they didn't and then everyone moved onto fight sticks but over here people just argue for pages and then a MOD has to step in.

And it's not just Star Wars, I can think of other examples like the #ThanksGameFreak topic where the topic was derailed and closed because we couldn't just be nice and thank a dev without arguments breaking out.

But once again, no one cares in the real world. I lived next to the Pokemon Center, trust me, kids didn't care.

Stop being so angry online and creating a depressing atmosphere for others. People who need help shouldn't be surrounded by constant negativity even in topics about kids games and family movies. Talking to other and about things that let us escape real world problems should be a positive experience.

astro · Feb 27, 2020

Solid Snake said:
This website is negative.

Just look at the Star Wars topics. Why does something like Star Wars always have to result in two sides being bitter towards each other?

I've never experienced that type of thing. Not even as a kid in school, I never saw two sides accusing each other of things like being man children and racists just for disliking The Last Jedi.

Do people here really think that's normal real world behaviour? I can't imagine everyone in an office arguing backwards and forwards over Star Wars but my actual experience is some people said they liked the latest movie, some say they didn't and then everyone moved onto fight sticks but over here people just argue for pages and then a MOD has to step in.

And it's not just Star Wars, I can think of other examples like the #ThanksGameFreak topic where the topic was derailed and closed because we couldn't just be nice and thank a dev without arguments breaking out.

But once again, no one cares in the real world. I lived next to the Pokemon Center, trust me, kids didn't care.

Stop being so angry online and creating a depressing atmosphere for others. People who need help shouldn't be surrounded by constant negativity even in topics about kids games and family movies.

Maybe some of those people are struggling and their behaviours are symptomatic of that? Not excusing the behaviours but it is not as easy as "don't do it".

I don't think lecturing people is the way here... I think trying to lead by example would be, creating threads and posting positively etc...

Gilver · Feb 27, 2020

The internet makes you want to kill yourself. Suicide is up in the whole world.

Deleted member 8561 · Feb 27, 2020

Kittens McMittens said:
Honestly, I think the community OTs are the best part of this forum. General gaming / etecera threads can quickly degenerate.

I feel compelled to ask this question given the manner of your participation in this thread. Don't feel like you have to answer if you don't want to, but really: have you ever experienced suicidal ideation?

As someone who has, and as someone who's known many people who have (indeed, almost all my closest friends have), I don't know anyone who became suicidal because of the news, or because of the tone of an online forum. Quite honestly, the tone of the post you just made reads like someone who has absolutely no direct experience of serious depression at all.

If I'm misunderstanding you then I'm sorry. If your experience is that you became depressed due to participation in an online forum, then I understand. I just think it's a very unusual situation that I've never encountered before.

I've seen threads where people directly cite the the "state of the world", "climate change", "fascism" as a direct cause of their hopelessness and driving force to why they feel suicidal. The entire OT is a pool of hopelessness and nihilistic feedback loops. I'm not claiming ERA is causing people to become suicidal, I'm saying that it's a factor that can drive people deeper into depression or the feeling of hopelessness due to how they view the media they consume on ERA to be "informed".

As for asking if I've personally dealt with mental illness... that's kinda a ridiculous thing to ask someone to be honest, especially in the context that you misunderstood my post. If you don't think my criticisms of leaving these threads open are valid, that's fine, but they can stand on their own without me having to give a deep dive into my history with mental illness as some type of justification for my views on the subject.

I'm not taking it personally, but I think you misunderstood my post on multiple levels.

But I think the community needs to start asking why these threads are popping up more often and if the community itself has responsibility for the current uptick in these threads, as well as moderation asking themselves if their actions in keeping them open are actually helping.

Ketkat · Feb 27, 2020

Mist said:
I think you're really discounting the potential damage from locking a thread where someone is crying out for help. For one, people with depression often feel like they are a burden to others, and feel too guilty to even reach out for help. That, and that any help is pointless, because things could not possibly get better. Immediately locking these threads can come across as dismissive and isolating, which is he last thing we want to do.

I also feel that you're also ignoring the fact that many posts in these threads are specifically urging the OP to seek professional help (or explaining how therapy has helped them), and are merely offering emotional support, not therapy. The idea that locking the thread with a boilerplate message is less damaging to the mental state of a suicidal person than allowing people to express words of comfort and support is something I'm struggling to comprehend. And I say that as someone who has struggled with similar thoughts and feelings as these members. The last thing you want to make someone in this state of mind feel is that they're alone, or a burden to others. Which is the message that instantly locking these threads can send.

I understand where the concern is coming from, as there are potential negative consequences no matter what you do. I'm also the type of person who find these threads difficult to read at times, depending on my own mental health, and that informs how much I am able to monitor them myself, or whether I ask other staff members to take over. So I understand that it can be tough to see these threads. But we have to balance everyone's needs, and that includes people who are in need of urgent support. Speaking from personal experience, I often feel too guilty to even talk to close friends and loved ones about my own struggles, since that above mentioned feeling of being a 'burden' pops up. But I'm fortunate to have some kind of support group, and it's thanks to this peer support that I was able to seek professional help, which greatly accelerated my own healing process. This is what peer support does. When someone is in that dark state of mind, even getting professional help can seem pointless. Some people are also incapable of seeking professional help at all based on their circumstances. Engaging with and encouraging members can keep them going until they can get the support that they need.

I will also add that if any member sees an unhelpful or insensitive comment in such a thread, please report it. We will at the very least remove the post.

Personally, I think that this sums up my feelings on the matter when it comes to these threads, but I am often conflicted about them as well.

I never want to silence someone or make someone feel like they're alone when they've already taken a big step in reaching out, but I do often wonder if the nature of these threads is actually beneficial to the people reaching out for help. It is true that we're avoiding the immediate negative consequences of locking the thread, but the larger concern to me is that we aren't establishing a coping mechanism or a crisis plan for the OP throughout the conversation as it's hard to have a 1 on 1 conversation while the thread is filled with small comments.

One of the major things that we talked about when I started volunteering for the Crisis Line is that it is incredibly important to ask only one question at a time and to establish the level of danger that someone is in. When someone is receiving messages and questions from all angles, quite a few of them are going to go unanswered including ones that allow us to make the call whether police intervention is necessary or getting to the root of the matter so that the OP can better cope with these feelings in the future.

A lot of people need others to listen to them and allow them to feel heard, but I really can't stress enough how important it is that we don't establish that the people who make these threads should be doing this as their primary coping mechanism. That will cause them to make these threads over and over again instead of trying to reach out to professional help or working out the feelings that they're experiencing on a deeper level.

Basically, it's a good thing that we allow these people who are hurting to feel better about themselves for a moment. But, depression and suicidal ideation are issues that aren't going to be resolved within a night of positive posts from others and we need to make sure that we're pushing them in the right direction however we can and not contributing to stagnation.

I also don't believe that threads in Etc fill the gap of a support group in the same way that an actual support group does. Not that you personally are suggesting that, but just a general thought after reading the thread.

LexingtonKruger · Feb 27, 2020

I think I have contributed a fair few.

I like the gender aspect of this community.
I think a community that accepts gender variance will also accept mental health issues.

Due to having depression, anxiety, bpd, I also have very few friends.
I've had an erratic life.

Reaching out for help here is the only way I can actually feel like I'm not entirely alone.

Therapy doesn't help me, but somehow talking with other strangers does.

I think if a depressed thread keeps someone alive for a few more days, weeks, months, then this forum has done a lot of good.

bangai-o · Feb 27, 2020

I don't know if recommendations are being tossed around this thread, but I'll mention sleep. I have been going on 5 hours of sleep since I began graduate school. Combine that with work, and the Iack of good sleep makes for some sad thoughts.

Some days I skip all the responsibilities and just go to bed early. It works for me. It may work for others.

LookAtMeGo · Feb 27, 2020

bangai-o said:
I don't know if recommendations are being tossed around this thread, but I'll mention sleep. I have been going on 5 hours of sleep since I began graduate school. Combine that with work, and the Iack of good sleep makes for some sad thoughts.

Some days I skip all the responsibilities and just go to bed early. It works for me. It may work for others.

Man, its wild how much difference sleep makes for me too. I usually sleep like shit and am always in a shitty mood with depressing thoughts and I get a decent night sleep and I'm happy and productive as hell the next day.

kamineko · Feb 27, 2020

bangai-o said:
I don't know if recommendations are being tossed around this thread, but I'll mention sleep. I have been going on 5 hours of sleep since I began graduate school. Combine that with work, and the Iack of good sleep makes for some sad thoughts.

Some days I skip all the responsibilities and just go to bed early. It works for me. It may work for others.

for sure, my sleep is closely managed as part of my treatment. it's crucial for my health

thewienke · Feb 27, 2020

bangai-o said:
I don't know if recommendations are being tossed around this thread, but I'll mention sleep. I have been going on 5 hours of sleep since I began graduate school. Combine that with work, and the Iack of good sleep makes for some sad thoughts.

Some days I skip all the responsibilities and just go to bed early. It works for me. It may work for others.

That’s why the one of the first questions a therapist will ask is regarding sleep.

Hard to actually address anything unless the patient is getting a good night’s sleep.

AZ Greg · Feb 27, 2020

Kyuuji said:
I agree, and perhaps I should have clarified that it wasn’t a knock on the mods. It’s worth considering how depression and feeling extremely low could influence that interpretation as well.

I wonder whether there’s also a risk of embarrassment on top of it, the thought of posting something that personal and it being locked. Strictly me considering it from what my thoughts might be were I thinking about making a thread with that rule in place (and having witnessed it).

This point keeps getting made, but the old place was adamant about locking these types of threads and people weren't dropping like flies as a result. People who want to support can still reach out via PM. I'd really like some data that supports the keeping of threads open as being more viable/successful in helping these people than closing them.

I'm just a firm believer that the blanket of negativity only perpetuates more negativity and the situation keeps getting worse. But it is a tough thing to deal with on either side, I don't envy the mods at all.

Kyuuji · Feb 27, 2020

AZ Greg said:
This point keeps getting made, but the old place was adamant about locking these types of threads and people weren't dropping like flies as a result. People who want to support can still reach out via PM. I'd really like some data that supports the keeping of threads open as being more viable/successful in helping these people than closing them.

Not sure what point you thought was being made but I was speaking to the concerns people might have that prevent them from reaching out. How could you know if one of the many users there didn’t make a thread in order to so confidently say it had no effect?

52club · Feb 27, 2020

Life is a fucking grind, it is impossible to tell when people are entering a dangerous mental state even when you see them daily. On an online forum it is even more difficult. It doesn’t hurt to try to do better though. But in a way internet forums (even with good intentions) can be problematic.

lvl 99 Pixel · Feb 27, 2020

AZ Greg said:
people weren't dropping like flies as a result.

That's a fucked up way to phrase it but also how could you possibly know the effect it has? When I expressed my state of mind there years back I just got a ban and a message that was just a hotline for a country I didn't live in, and I ended up in a much worse state because that felt like a wall being deployed in front of me. I can say from experience that the same did not happen here, and that the mods and users that messaged me were more helpful and understanding.

Kyuuji · Feb 27, 2020

lvl 99 Pixel said:
That's a fucked up way to phrase it

Thanks, didn’t want to go into it but I thought the same.

AZ Greg · Feb 27, 2020

lvl 99 Pixel said:
That's a fucked up way to phrase it but also how could you possibly know the effect it has? When I expressed my state of mind there years back I just got a ban and a message that was just a hotline for a country I didn't live in, and I ended up in a much worse state because that felt like a wall being deployed in front of me. I can say from experience that the same did not happen here, and that the mods and users that messaged me were more helpful and understanding.

With the utmost respect, even with that response you got there, you’re still here and that’s a great thing!

That’s kind of my point though, there’s no hard data that supports one way being more beneficial than the other in terms of going through with it or not.

But what we do know for sure is that this place allows these threads to run their course, and as a result, at least in my opinion, that’s why the volume is so high. And because the volume is so high, it perpetuates a negative vibe which a ton of posters in this thread have echoed. And it just snowballs.

There are a ton of inherent, unhealthy, flaws with a forum being your primary source of social connection, which is a topic for another thread completely. But when you have people with 10,000 posts and you know this is their primary source of connection, then you couple that with constant negativity, this will only continue.

By reverting this place to a more positive escape, even if it means locking these threads, I truly believe it would have a greater impact on positive mental health in the long run.

Kyuuji · Feb 27, 2020

AZ Greg said:
But when you have people with 10,000 posts and you know this is their primary source of connection, then you couple that with constant negativity, this will only continue.

Have most of the people posting suicide threads been at 10k+ posts or this just a weird pot shot?

AZ Greg · Feb 27, 2020

Kyuuji said:
Have most of the people posting suicide threads been at 10k+ posts or this just a weird pot shot?

No it wasn’t a shot lol. Sorry if it came off as such. I was at that number, or close to it, at the old place. My point was that when you have that many posts on a forum, again, speaking from experience, it’s clearly your primary source of social interaction. And just like real life social situations, if you surround yourself with negativity then you’ll become negative. And I don’t need to layout the negative health effects/science of having a negative mindset.

When I was in my early 20s spending my days on GAF, I truly felt like the community combined with the humor helped me get past that period of my life unscathed. Had I been here, who knows...

Kyuuji · Feb 27, 2020

AZ Greg said:
No it wasn’t a shot lol. Sorry if it came off as such. I was at that number, or close to it, at the old place. My point was that when you have that many posts on a forum, again, speaking from experience, it’s clearly your primary source of social interaction. And just like real life social situations, if you surround yourself with negativity then you’ll become negative. And I don’t need to layout the negative health effects/science of having a negative mindset.

It’s not my primary source of interaction, granted I’m a hundred odd shy so I could still get sucked into this screen and be denied human interaction forevermore. If the rope goes slack once I hit five digits then you’ll know what happened. Honestly though, I think someone could equally have 3,000 posts and this be the majority of connection that they have with the world. For example on my end my posts have been massively inflated the past half year as I shattered my ankle and have been both off work and lacking mobility for most of the time until, well, now lol. Still see and speak to people as often and my partner has yet to dust me for cobwebs so it’s not as cut and dry as the numbers might suggest.

When I was in my early 20s spending my days on GAF, I truly felt like the community combined with the humor helped me get past that period of my life unscathed. Had I been here, who knows...

Sure, but equally a lot of people here have been helped in getting past rough parts of their life. I’m not saying that the mood couldn’t be lighter, but some of the assumptions you make of the people and their motivations might be misplaced imo.

AZ Greg · Feb 27, 2020

Kyuuji said:
Sure, but equally a lot of people here have been helped in getting past rough parts of their life. I’m not saying that the mood couldn’t be lighter, but some of the assumptions you make of the people and their motivations might be misplaced imo.

Perhaps, and there definitely isn’t a one size fits all approach which is what makes this so tough.

But even in just looking at <READCTED>

This can be looked at one of two ways, the ability to cry for help here has kept them going until now. Or, that same ability has kept them from getting real help and now they stay on the edge of misery and suicide indefinitely. We just don’t know for sure which it is. But what we do know for sure, as evidenced by voices in this thread, is that all the negativity hurts already at risk people by taking their own thoughts down a dark path and potentially pushing them over the edge. I really think we’re doing more harm than good here. But there is no real way to prove it and those in charge of the site will make their choice.

Wonderment · Feb 27, 2020

To those who want to see these threads closed:

You don't have to convince me that this community doesn't always receive the support that some members need or want. But in the time of crisis, these members are consistently supported by other members and the staff.

Luckily for you, you can actually just walk away from these threads, if you don't want to send in a report or post a few kind words of encouragement. But you should know something:

These people who are in the midst of a troubled time cannot just walk away, or see another path in the moment. They are the unlucky ones, not you because you saw yet another thread.

None of these threads are about you, in any way. Your post about "oh can you believe another thread" or "era is such a downer" is not needed, wanted, or emblematic of a supportive community. Putting it bluntly: your posts are the downers that make others feel negative, not these threads from troubled members.

You want to feel better after seeing these threads? Seeing these threads should make you feel good enough knowing that there is a 50,000-strong community willing to provide support and encouragement.

The more people you know, the more unfortunate circumstances you're going to hear about and come into contact with. Same goes for the longer you live. It is something everyone must become accustomed to in this life. Era is not going to be a filtered escape from life curated just for you.

AZ Greg, your comments about people in the mental health OT are unhelpful and show a lack of awareness and understanding of the cycle of even just attempting to find and get help. You are also singling out a community member unfairly and attempting to analyze them publicly. That is not supportive nor is it socially acceptable in any setting. You should be listening more than posting right now. This thread also isn't the place to complain about a community OT.

Deleted member 64002 · Feb 27, 2020

Maybe if we curtailed all the toxic negative threads I usually see and the community encourage positive discussion I can definitely see era improving. Although I think alot of external factors are affecting people as well. That said as a general suggestion please stop making threads with a clear intention to cause negative discussion where it is warranted. As an example " I hate x does anyone hate x?" These threads pop up a ton and it's just getting worse which is really concerning.

RedMercury · Feb 27, 2020

It always sucks that there's so many people who feel this way, but just doing some quick numbers: About 10 million people consider ending their life every year in the US, or 3% of the population. It's a lot, far too many unfortunately.

Let's say there is a thread like this once every 2 days, which I think is probably near the mark or maybe a little generous. Era has been around for I believe 3 years. That would be 547 threads. There have been 167,377 threads, so threads about self-harm thoughts would represent 0.3% of all threads.

Going further, there are 49.331 members, if each thread was posted by a different person, it would represent 1% of total membership, which would be less than the reported percentage of the population who struggles with these thoughts (in the US, of course not every member is from the US here but I believe most are), meaning there may be many more people who feel this way who don't make threads.

So while I would agree I've seen many of these threads (and I'm really glad people are reaching out for help from a community they trust as opposed to just internalizing it and that there are so many who want to help), I don't think Era is necessarily any huge outlier. If it is, I would guess it's due to a variety of factors, one being the founding principles of the site about empathy and respect for people, a generally leftward mindset that places value in discussing things, people feeling welcomed enough to make the threads knowing there will be people who will hear them out and want to help because they care. There are a lot of marginalized people here who don't have a lot of spaces to feel welcome on the internet, and even though it's not perfect I think Era is generally viewed as better than most.

That being said, that doesn't mean there isn't an uptick, and if there is that's really worrisome. I think the mental healthy community thread participants are a great support group from what I've seen so that's one resource that could be leaned on.

Kyuuji · Feb 27, 2020

AZ Greg said:
This can be looked at one of two ways, the ability to cry for help here has kept them going until now. Or, that same ability has kept them from getting real help and now they stay on the edge of misery and suicide indefinitely. We just don’t know for sure which it is. But what we do know for sure, as evidenced by voices in this thread, is that all the negativity hurts already at risk people by taking their own thoughts down a dark path and potentially pushing them over the edge. I really think we’re doing more harm than good here. But there is no real way to prove it and those in charge of the site will make their choice.

Those aren’t the only two options and it’s rash to assume that because someone is venting in a thread here over job issues that they haven’t also sought professional help when they’ve found it too much in life. I’ve certainly thrown out a “I’m fucking done” type post in the past and it only been a reflection of my frustration at the time. I’ve even posted in that very OT when I found it too much one evening just as a release and acknowledgement of my feelings.

As before I think you make a lot of assumptions about the people - be it assuming people didn’t get turned away, that people with 10k+ posts don’t have any other social avenues or that people posting aren’t also seeing someone professionally - that aren’t as tightly bound as you suggest.

RedMercury · Feb 27, 2020

Solid Snake said:
Just look at the Star Wars topics. Why does something like Star Wars always have to result in two sides being bitter towards each other?

This is literally every forum that is not dedicated to only one niche subject. Go take a look at reddit for example, like a forum about retro ZX games is likely going to be more lockstep in opinion than a forum about all games. It's just what happens when multiple subjects are allowed to be discussed. In your example, that's also a function of the Star Wars fandom in general and where it's at, it's not Era-specific by any means, the same discussions play out the same way on r/StarWars, on Twitter, on any social media.

RedMercury · Feb 27, 2020

TheLostBigBoss said:
I've seen threads where people directly cite the the "state of the world", "climate change", "fascism" as a direct cause of their hopelessness and driving force to why they feel suicidal. The entire OT is a pool of hopelessness and nihilistic feedback loops. I'm not claiming ERA is causing people to become suicidal, I'm saying that it's a factor that can drive people deeper into depression or the feeling of hopelessness due to how they view the media they consume on ERA to be "informed".

TBH I don't see the difference if you're claiming it can lead to depression and we know depression leads to suicidal ideation. And like, yeah, there's a lot of people who feel hopeless for good reason. Minorities are in a really bad way right now being constantly bullied and targeted, there's so much division, the least we can do is give struggling people an outlet.

AZ Greg said:
No it wasn’t a shot lol. Sorry if it came off as such. I was at that number, or close to it, at the old place. My point was that when you have that many posts on a forum, again, speaking from experience, it’s clearly your primary source of social interaction

I mean, no. That may be your experience but that is in no way true of everyone. I have just over 10k posts since 2017 and I have two jobs, I have a wife and kids, other family I talk to almost every day, friends I talk to every day. Sure, I can't go out every weekend and party or whatever but that's just part of being an adult. Posting on Era probably takes up 20-30 minutes of my day, mostly while I'm working anyways, leaving a whole shitload of time for other interactions. Like, sorry but you're kind of speaking out of your ass with that assertion.

tokkun · Feb 27, 2020

♡♪!? said:
I don't agree with putting issues in its own forum because I've seen it suggested or another forum where Trump supporters want that because they think it would it put all the "whining" social/election/climate change/whatever in one place. They don't want people to ruin their fun with issues.

Is hurting Trump supporters a higher priority than trying to solve the issues raised in this thread?

Bamm_Bamm · Feb 27, 2020

The community here should be able to contribute to this issue. However no matter the suggestions and opinions of members the mods need to contact professionals (multiple) and learn what the current best practice in dealing with suicidal ideation on public forums is, draw up guidelines based on THAT advice and implement said guidelines ASAP. Saying that there is no clear consensus on best practice in this area is not good enough.

Mentally ill people do not know what is best for them and the best intentioned lay person will never know the correct medicine to administer to an ill person.

A solution to suicidal ideation is not as simple as providing "support from the community" if there is a chance that in even one case that could make things worse, and that fact complicates an already complicated set of dynamics that exist on any public forum.

I am not saying immediately close threads but what I am saying is there needs to be very clear limits on the exposure and access granted to those threads as quickly as possible when they are posted.

The status quo is not good enough and action needs to be taken.

Cipherr · Feb 27, 2020

Maybe there should be some way to heighten the visibility of the Hangouts communities. I feel like the discussion in the focused communities are so much better than the general discussions. Everyone feels more patient with each other. People can disagree without it taking over the whole topic. Maybe its the shared interest in something specific that fuels that. But they need more traffic, they are the best part of the forum by a mile. And yet being only a click away they feel so hidden.

Discussing something of shared interest with others is always, or rather usually pretty uplifting .

subpar spatula · Feb 27, 2020

I think Era just isn't really equipped to help these individuals. The threads should stay open, but we should be aware a night of positive comments isn't really a solution. From my experience with attempting suicide, having someone only be there when there's a cry for help wasn't going to help me (because I highly doubt their actual commitment long term -- especially if it was some stranger online). It should be taken more seriously, and authorities should always be contacted if someone makes a thread about killing themselves.

I just feel as if there's only so much Era can do besides contacting authorities near the person and have them deal with it.

Camjo-Z · Feb 27, 2020

Glitchesarecool said:
We can't. We don't know each other's lives and we are not mental health professionals. People who make these threads need professional help, not random schmucks posting. I have seen people make comments that fit in with things you should not say to people who are suicidal.

From r/SuicideWatch's guide on not encouraging suicide: https://old.reddit.com/r/SuicideWat...iki_on_how_to_avoid_accidentally_encouraging/

I feel like this is a pretty important point. It's not their fault, but take one look at a recent thread and you can see just how many people who have all the best intentions unwittingly say all the wrong things.

DevilMayGuy · Feb 27, 2020

It's a tough thing to tackle for sure. I think that Era skews overly cynical and catastrophic, but I'm not sure if that is a primary contributor to the uptick in suicide threads.
I appreciate the mods for taking people's thoughts into consideration, and I don't envy you folks one bit in your upcoming effort to tackle this sensitive issue. I think that sometimes we expect a bit much from a group of volunteers with day jobs.
I'm glad that so far, people seem to have gotten at least some help from posting here in their dark times.

Lentic · Feb 27, 2020

darkazcura said:
I really do think this forum would do well to have a separate ‘news’ forum. Just my opinion, but I just feel like this forum is flooded with constant news now rather than what I’m historically used to on an OT forum. I don’t want to hide it, but I do think it’s time to separate it.

People need a space to let loose a little bit on this forum, and there is no where to do it unless you are apart of a hyper specific community in the communities section.

I completely agree with this. I’ve been apart of this community across sites for almost 10 years and I remember OT having much lighter discussion. There used to be stuff like the infamous “$30 Italian meal” thread and other casual topics. Unfortunately, those kinds of threads seem to get eclipsed pretty quickly by news/movie/tv discussion these days. Maybe some of that is due to the current state of affairs. It might be an unpopular decision, but I think we could really use a “Casual Talk” sub-section for lighter topics.

I feel similarly about the gaming section as well. It used to be place for people to just come and talk about what they were playing or other weird topics of interest. Now it’s mostly just news and the latest releases.

Most interactions between the people here seem to be argumentative in nature, which I think is something that also affects the health of the community.

The Unsent · Feb 28, 2020

tokkun said:
Is hurting Trump supporters a higher priority than trying to solve the issues raised in this thread?

Well it's not what I mean, I believe doing a different forum for issues might look like it's trying to depoliticize the rest of the forum and I think politics affect entertainment and games as well. I'm cynical about "get politics out of..." which I think can be aggressive.

StraySheep · Feb 28, 2020

Alienous said:
Yeah, I think the structure of EtcetEra is an issue. I think it would be better split into two - Entertainment and World News. As it stands the same place you visit to hear about the latest James Bond trailer is also the place where you're reminded the world is terrible.

That would also make it less of a miscellaneous pool of everything that isn't about games. So hopefully mental health or relationship discussion would firmly find its place in those threads.

I haven't gotten the chance to read the majority of this thread but I still support this change.

Edit: and it seems like 10 pages later it is still being discussed.

tokkun · Feb 28, 2020

♡♪!? said:
Well it's not what I mean, I believe doing a different forum for issues might look like it's trying to depoliticize the rest of the forum and I think politics affect entertainment and games as well. I'm cynical about "get politics out of..." which I think can be aggressive.

I might understand this argument if we only had one board. But we already have two (really four with communities). We even have a politics community thread. Yet, I don't perceive there being a chilling effect on discussing game-related politics on the gaming side. Do you? If not, why would adding another board change that?

I've been posting on internet forums for more than two decades now, and in my experience the only thing that actually stops people from bringing politics into any thread is strict moderation. Based on what I have seen from this site's moderators and community, I have a hard time believing that would happen.

Mind you, I'm not certain that more boards is necessarily the best or only solution to the problems raised in this thread. However, I think it speaks poorly to the community if we have to dismiss a possible solution because we are too worried about the external optics or about a slippery slope fallacy.

The mental health of this community [Read Staff Post Before Posting]

One Winged Slayer

Linked the Fire

Alt Account

user requested account closure

Linked the Fire

One Winged Slayer

One Winged Slayer

One Winged Slayer

One Winged Slayer

User requested account closure

One Winged Slayer