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Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,229
So this comment really hurts MS right? Like this has to likely give the CMA all the ammo it wants

Nah. Nobody's under the impression that games that would've been in development for years wouldn't have initially been looking at a PS5 version, if not for the acquisition.

MS has upheld the release of games that were announced for competitor platforms (The Outer Worlds, Psychonauts 2, etc), if there was no public announcement, then there was no public promise committed to essentially.

That said, it's not the best timing to make such a comment, that's for sure!
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,660
The World
Microsoft literally honored existing agreements - Deathloop and Ghostwire exclusive to PS and MS not even being able to talk about it until the exclusivity period expired.

MS never promised to keep games under development MP.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,560
Curious to see if the math showed an incentive to make it exclusive rather than release on PS5.

Ofcourse.

There are zero existing Redfall customers on PlayStation. There aren't a guaranteed 20mil sales being left on the table. There aren't hundreds of millions of dollars of MTs being missed out on. The dev costs aren't inflated by having seven studios working on it at all times. So whatever opportunity costs there are in skipping PS are reasonably offset by the benefits of having an exclusive.
 

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,040
CT
Yeah the Redfall thing is a big nothing burger. The CMA/EU have made it clear CoD is the only IP they give a rats ass about, and it's the one Microsoft is jumping through hoops to prove they plan to keep it multiplatform over the next 10 years, much like they did Minecraft.

Microsoft never agreed to keep Zenimax/Bethesda games multiplatform, they only agreed to not pull games that were currently for sale and would continue to support ongoing gaas titles (like eso and fo76). Titles going forward being exclusive or multiplatform would be on a "per case basis", much like other MS titles they've ported like the Ori games to Switch.
 

MrHedin

Member
Dec 7, 2018
6,846
I could be wrong on this, but my understanding is that Microsoft said as part of the Bethesda deal that it wouldn't impact releasing games to other platforms right?

If I understood that correctly, then yes this could have an impact on the Activision/Blizzard deal because that's a direct contradiction from MS

Incorrect. Microsoft said they would take Bethesda games on a case-by-case basis and made no commitments to release Bethesda games other than what was already contractually agreed upon (i.e. Deathloop and Ghostwire).
 

bakedpony

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,271
Why is the Redfall news surprising to some? Acquisitions always reduce the number of players that can access those games by the acquired company. To boost the acquirer's platform. Same with ABK if it goes thru.

The exception being Minecraft and Bungie
 
OP
OP
Idas

Idas

Antitrusting By Keyboard
Member
Mar 20, 2022
2,057
Since at least September 2022, the CMA knows about Redfall (and Starfield) becoming exclusives once MS bought Zenimax (implying that there was a PS5 version in development):

Decision from Phase 1 (September 15th 2022)

The CMA found a pattern of Microsoft acquiring development studios and making their upcoming games exclusive to Xbox. All of these studios developed games for other gaming consoles before being acquired by Microsoft. These include:

(a) ZeniMax Media: Microsoft chose to make several of ZeniMax's major gaming franchises exclusive in consoles to Xbox, including the upcoming games Starfield and, based on Microsoft's public statements, The Elder Scrolls VI, following its 2021 acquisition.


Microsoft's response to the Issues Statement (October 31st 2022)

Microsoft stated that it would "honor all of ZeniMax's obligations to continue to make its current games available on other gaming hardware, including two planned console exclusive releases for the Sony PlayStation 5: Deathloop and Ghostwire: Tokyo". The games were released on an exclusive basis on PlayStation with high Metacritic ratings.

Microsoft has not taken any existing ZeniMax titles which were shipping on PlayStation on 9 March 2021 (the date when it closed its acquisition of Zenimax) off Playstation or other platforms.

Microsoft was clear that "[REDACTED]". The first Xbox and PC exclusive games will be Starfield and Redfall (both entirely new games) which are scheduled to be released in 2023 (i.e., some 2 years after the ZeniMax acquisition).


I don't think that this statement adds anything new to the review process.
 
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Chaos Legion

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,967
Ofcourse.

There are zero existing Redfall customers on PlayStation. There aren't a guaranteed 20mil sales being left on the table. There aren't hundreds of millions of dollars of MTs being missed out on. The dev costs aren't inflated by having seven studios working on it at all times. So whatever opportunity costs there are in skipping PS are reasonably offset by the benefits of having an exclusive.
Cool. So it would be interesting to see the math that justified the decision.
 
Feb 19, 2023
1,920

liquiddragon

Member
Jun 20, 2020
2,049
User Warned: Off-Topic Platform Warring; Permanently Threadbanned
I blamed MS for Redfall looking so uninteresting visually. I'm sorry to hear it's probably mostly Arkane's doing...tho I guess MS could've had lots of input in the last couple years.
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
Since at least September 2022, the CMA knows about Redfall (and Starfield) becoming exclusives once MS bought Zenimax (implying that there was a PS5 version in development):

Decision from Phase 1 (September 15th 2022)

The CMA found a pattern of Microsoft acquiring development studios and making their upcoming games exclusive to Xbox. All of these studios developed games for other gaming consoles before being acquired by Microsoft. These include:

(a) ZeniMax Media: Microsoft chose to make several of ZeniMax's major gaming franchises exclusive in consoles to Xbox, including the upcoming games Starfield and, based on Microsoft's public statements, The Elder Scrolls VI, following its 2021 acquisition.


Microsoft's response to the Issues Statement (October 31st 2022)

Microsoft stated that it would "honor all of ZeniMax's obligations to continue to make its current games available on other gaming hardware, including two planned console exclusive releases for the Sony PlayStation 5: Deathloop and Ghostwire: Tokyo". The games were released on an exclusive basis on PlayStation with high Metacritic ratings.

Microsoft has not taken any existing ZeniMax titles which were shipping on PlayStation on 9 March 2021 (the date when it closed its acquisition of Zenimax) off Playstation or other platforms.

Microsoft was clear that "[REDACTED]". The first Xbox and PC exclusive games will be Starfield and Redfall (both entirely new games) which are scheduled to be released in 2023 (i.e., some 2 years after the ZeniMax acquisition).


I don't think that this statement adds anything new to the review process.
So it's something nice for Twitter to get hot and bothered about, but really makes no difference at all.
 

Wereroku

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,348
Hopefully all this will make people stop arguing anytime someone says Starfield would have released on ps5.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,399
Seattle
Nah. Nobody's under the impression that games that would've been in development for years wouldn't have initially been looking at a PS5 version, if not for the acquisition.

MS has upheld the release of games that were announced for competitor platforms (The Outer Worlds, Psychonauts 2, etc), if there was no public announcement, then there was no public promise committed to essentially.

That said, it's not the best timing to make such a comment, that's for sure!
The CMA was certainly under the impression that what MS said about the Bethesda purchase qualified as misleading.

They even used the word "promise" (read the last sentence):

edit: Correction, this is actually what a 3rd party said, but I still think it's relevant. Thanks Sheepinator

FfDGkiAWAA8TQoX


(I'm aware most of this forum disagrees so please don't argue with me lol)

This statement from Arcane could certainly be something that gets brought up by Sony, to remind the CMA that they felt MS was being misleading.

But it is an already addressed topic in this case; so it may not matter at all.

Still that Arcane guy shouldn't have said it, I really don't understand why in gaming it's so common for developers to basically say something kind of shit talk-y about the company they work for lol
 
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Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,167
The CMA was certainly under the impression that what MS said about the Bethesda purchase qualified as misleading.

They even used the word "promise" (read the last sentence):

FfDGkiAWAA8TQoX


(I'm aware most of this forum disagrees so please don't argue with me lol)

This statement from Arcane could certainly be something that gets brought up by Sony, to remind the CMA that they felt MS was being misleading.

But it is an already addressed topic in this case; so it may not matter at all.

Still that Arcane guy shouldn't have said it, I really don't understand why in gaming it's so common for developers to basically say something kind of shit talk-y about the company they work for lol
CMA was citing what third parties said to them.

Submission from a third party, submitted on 26 July 2022, pages 18 and 19; note of a call with a third party, dated 23 May 2022, paragraph 12; note of a call with a third party, dated 6 May 2022, paragraph 22; and third-party response to the CMA's Cloud Gaming questionnaire dated 28 July 2022, page 29.

page 58, https://assets.publishing.service.g...533/MSFT.ABK_phase_1_decision_-_1.09.2022.pdf
 
Oct 27, 2017
45,583
Seattle
Since at least September 2022, the CMA knows about Redfall (and Starfield) becoming exclusives once MS bought Zenimax (implying that there was a PS5 version in development):

Decision from Phase 1 (September 15th 2022)

The CMA found a pattern of Microsoft acquiring development studios and making their upcoming games exclusive to Xbox. All of these studios developed games for other gaming consoles before being acquired by Microsoft. These include:

(a) ZeniMax Media: Microsoft chose to make several of ZeniMax's major gaming franchises exclusive in consoles to Xbox, including the upcoming games Starfield and, based on Microsoft's public statements, The Elder Scrolls VI, following its 2021 acquisition.


Microsoft's response to the Issues Statement (October 31st 2022)

Microsoft stated that it would "honor all of ZeniMax's obligations to continue to make its current games available on other gaming hardware, including two planned console exclusive releases for the Sony PlayStation 5: Deathloop and Ghostwire: Tokyo". The games were released on an exclusive basis on PlayStation with high Metacritic ratings.

Microsoft has not taken any existing ZeniMax titles which were shipping on PlayStation on 9 March 2021 (the date when it closed its acquisition of Zenimax) off Playstation or other platforms.

Microsoft was clear that "[REDACTED]". The first Xbox and PC exclusive games will be Starfield and Redfall (both entirely new games) which are scheduled to be released in 2023 (i.e., some 2 years after the ZeniMax acquisition).


I don't think that this statement adds anything new to the review process.

So really this new statement is basically a nothing burger. Thanks Idas for clarifying that
 
Dec 5, 2017
1,482
Even if it was planned I don't see how it matters. Is some new IP that has never had a game released essential to Sony? Of course not.
 

dlauv

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,515
Yes. Basically they just said it was never announced so there is no proof it was in development for ps5. Just more stupid console war arguing.
Well there was no proof and now there is proof. So now circular arguments have a setpiece of substance going forward.
 

InfinityDOK

Member
Dec 3, 2018
2,609
As idas said regulators already knew about Redfall and Starfield. The comment would have been different if they had promised gamers there would be a PS5 release or if there was contract to release on PS5. None of that existed, so I don't think this moves the bar as some may hope.
 

Remeran

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,912
I blamed MS for Redfall looking so uninteresting visually. I'm sorry to hear it's probably mostly Arkane's doing...tho I guess MS could've had lots of input in the last couple years.
Lol really?

Yes. Basically they just said it was never announced so there is no proof it was in development for ps5. Just more stupid console war arguing.
Does anyone really take those arguments seriously? I only see console warriors spewing this and most people respond with how ridiculous that is.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,229
The CMA was certainly under the impression that what MS said about the Bethesda purchase qualified as misleading.

They even used the word "promise" (read the last sentence):

edit: Correction, this is actually what a 3rd party said, but I still think it's relevant. Thanks Sheepinator

FfDGkiAWAA8TQoX


(I'm aware most of this forum disagrees so please don't argue with me lol)

This statement from Arcane could certainly be something that gets brought up by Sony, to remind the CMA that they felt MS was being misleading.

But it is an already addressed topic in this case; so it may not matter at all.

Still that Arcane guy shouldn't have said it, I really don't understand why in gaming it's so common for developers to basically say something kind of shit talk-y about the company they work for lol

I'm not talking about the decision to make it exclusive or not though, and whether or not that was misleading. MS said they'd evaluate Bethesda output on a "case-by-case" basis, and in fairness they did. They didn't cancel off Ghostwire Tokyo and Deathloop on PlayStation. They didn't sunset Elder Scrolls Online or Fallout 76, and stop releasing updates for the PlayStation versions. They didn't skip PlayStation for the Quake remaster. Case-by-case simply results in exclusivity more often than not for Bethesda's output, because that's how their output has more value to MS, rather than the raw revenue of releasing their standalone titles multiplatform.

What I was actually talking about is that regardless of which titles are exclusive or not, a game in as deep development as RedFall that it was ready for public reveal pretty much as the ink was drying on the acquisition, was clearly not going to have been conceived as an Xbox exclusive initially. The same is obviously true of the likes of Starfield and Elder Scrolls VI etc. We can argue (pointlessly) about if there's an actual existing PS5 build at the time of cancellation... but there was obviously intended to be either way.

And that's not going to be news to the CMA, because as much as I find their read on the market to be flawed, and for them to be somewhat out of their depth when evaluating it... they're not stupid and won't have believed a game popped up at E3 months after the acquisition was complete, having not existed in any form prior to MS purchasing them. So this comment isn't going to come as a shock to them, just as it shouldn't to anyone else.


This about sums posts like that up:
DaX-FvXUQAA54aS.jpg
 

Rowsdower

Shinra Employee of The Wise Ones
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
16,900
Canada
Why is the Redfall news surprising to some? Acquisitions always reduce the number of players that can access those games by the acquired company. To boost the acquirer's platform. Same with ABK if it goes thru.

The exception being Minecraft and Bungie
Yup. No wonder Sony is fighting this so hard. Outside CoD they will lose a lot of franchises.
 
OP
OP
Idas

Idas

Antitrusting By Keyboard
Member
Mar 20, 2022
2,057
Amazon Luna expanding to UK, Germany and Canada TODAY could be a bit more relevant for the case:

www.engadget.com

Amazon Luna expands to Canada, Germany and the UK | Engadget

Starting today, Amazon's Luna cloud gaming service is available in Canada, Germany and United Kingdom..

At the same time, the FTC has announced that it's starting a request for information regarding cloud computing business practices:

www.ftc.gov

An Inquiry into Cloud Computing Business Practices: The Federal Trade Commission is seeking public comments

The FTC just released a Request for Information (RFI) on the business practices of Cloud Computing Providers.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,229
I'm pretty sure that means the CMA is using that as an example of what could happen...

This is silly... the potential (and even expectation) for future ABK titles to be exclusive has literally always been there, and has been baked into the base level of considerations for the acquisition. It's only COD that's been a point of contention for continued multiplatform support, and there's nothing about the handling of Bethesda content that's reflective of how COD will be treated, because zero Bethesda IP received public assurance of remaining multiplaform. The only other instance of such a public declaration before has been with Minecraft... and we've seen how that's played out to date.
 

leburn98

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,637
It has always been clear from the very beginning that Zenimax/Bethesda titles would be exclusive on a case-by-case basis. They have also stated that their intent is to continue to release Call of Duty on PlayStation "as long as there is a PlayStation out there to ship to".

Assuming the ABK closes, anyone who is expecting future ABK titles not named Call of Duty to remain multiplatform, are in for a rude awakening.
 

CottonWolf

Member
Feb 23, 2018
1,775
Assuming the ABK closes, anyone who is expecting future ABK titles not named Call of Duty to remain multiplatform, are in for a rude awakening.
My assumption is that anything already released by the time it closes will get parity of support (so Diablo 4 expansions etc). CoD will get parity with new releases for 10 years then vanish. Nothing else will go to PlayStation.
 

rscardinals

Member
Feb 17, 2023
386
Can we just pick something that this thread hasn't gone back and forth on? We need some creativity in this thread!

- Is Xbox going to make COD exclusive? No, they promise.
- Could they in 10 years? Sure but they promise they have financial incentive to keep it multi-plat
- Is Xbox's promise worth anything? A signed agreement or a promise to a regulator is worth more.
- Is 10 years long enough? - It is equal to the longest CMA behavioral remedy approved to date.
- Does Sony have exclusives (1st and 3rd party) and do Xbox fans dislike that? - Yes. Sorry not sorry.
- Does Microsoft buy large publishers & make most future games exclusive and do Sony fans dislike that? - Yes. Sorry not sorry.
- Are exclusives and buying large publishers the same thing? - No but regulators and Sony only care about COD. Sorry not sorry.
- Does Microsoft have more money than Sony? - Yes by a large amount
- Does Sony have a market leading position? - Yes by a large amount
- Do Sony and Microsoft have to make financially prudent/wise business decisions? - Yes they do.
- Do Sony and Microsoft view the market differently and view what decisions are good decisions differently? - Yes they do
- Can you have a personal preference and opinion? - Yes
- Does your peronsal preference and opinion impact the law or regulators? - Nope
- When will this be over? - when Idas rings the closing bell or admins lock this thread
- Is the deal going to be approved? - Odd pages are "It's so over"; Even pages are "We are so back!"
- If the CMA rejects, is the deal dead? - Most likely yes. MS can appeal to CAT but CAT cannot overturn CMA; only refer back
- Can MS just set up an independent ABK in the UK? - No according to lawyers here (Idas, Pixis, KnowinStuff)
- Will MS just pull out of the UK to move for the merger forward? - No. Azure/Windows/Office > Gaming.
- Will MS leave gaming if the deal is blocked? - No.

What am I missing for the definitive FAQ for this thread?
 
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