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BocoDragon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,207
I bet most millennial socialists aren't socialists so much as anti-republicans.

Like you're really ride or die for the government taking more of your paycheck and funding bigger government programs with it? Really? I kinda don't believe it.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
The DSA has some proven wrong economic dogma that they stick to, which is annoying.

Their housing policies have been proven wrong time and time again.
There's a reason it refuses to die: https://www.resetera.com/threads/th...on-the-history-of-the-democratic-party.31753/ That issue with "class based" organization's always been there.

Unions — which represented the "class" part of New Deal politics — reflected the white male homogeneity that marked the New Deal and post-World War II eras. Unions traditionally sought to restrict labor markets, and thus opposed immigration and excluded blacks and women. They were, after all, brotherhoods. This changed with the large industrial unions of the CIO in the 1930s, whose leaders grasped that their power depended on including minority racial groups. But many unions were nonetheless torn apart over civil rights and affirmative action. A substantial number of union voters defected from the Democratic Party over this issue, as well as abortion, women's rights and other liberal causes that emerged in the 1960s and 1970s and challenged the hierarchies long accepted by these unionists.
 
Oct 30, 2017
4,190
If they represent their communities and get elected because of it, that's fine by me. What I don't like is when a fraction of a fraction of highly ideological primary voters choose people who do not represent their state or district's views, which has happened quite a bit in GOP primaries. Additionally, I don't want to be told by a bunch of people in R+20 or D+20 districts that it's their way or nothing. The Freedom Caucus does this all the time and it's bullshit.

Basically, you should represent the people who sent you to Washington but don't become a brick wall that isn't willing to work towards common goals. Like the posts in this thread indicate, the DSA refuses to even admit the possibility that their housing solutions are wrong.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,203
Even if the DSA can't over take the majority, winning primaries in these states is a start. Small steps that can help to inspire and encourage more to follow.

I think the DSA has some lofty goals but I would hope those going know it can't be all or nothing. That these things take time to work and grow into better things.
 

y2dvd

Member
Nov 14, 2017
2,481
I bet most millennial socialists aren't socialists so much as anti-republicans.

Like you're really ride or die for the government taking more of your paycheck and funding bigger government programs with it? Really? I kinda don't believe it.

You got more tradition democrats here always ragging on Republicans and you got progressive voices wanting to stick mainly to the issues. Your assessment is reversed.

I don't mind paying higher if it means we net save and we have a better society. We would obviously try to cut the loop holes and make the rich pay their fair share of taxes and hopefully reduce the military budget. The latter is hard tho when you got overwhelming Dems also agreeing to increase the military budget by billions in one year. Wealthiest nation and were are still on the notion that we can't afford progressive demands.
 

Deleted member 29676

User Requested Account Closure
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,804
I wish we'd see more progressive Democrats openly embrace more socialist symbols, like the red rose.

It bothers me that the GOP is associated with the color of the left across the rest of the world.

Funny it really only flipped in the US around 2000. Before that I remember red being for democrats on some maps and blue for gop


Oh good I'm not going crazy https://www.theverge.com/2012/11/6/3609534/republicans-red-democrats-blue-why-election
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
I bet most millennial socialists aren't socialists so much as anti-republicans.

Like you're really ride or die for the government taking more of your paycheck and funding bigger government programs with it? Really? I kinda don't believe it.
Socialism polls more favorably than capitalism among millennials. It's not just anti-Trump/Republican fervor.

://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/02/05/millennials-have-a-higher-opinion-of-socialism-than-of-capitalism/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.bbc4452e7055
 

Norris1020

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,460
Yup, I'm saving my money to try to get on the waiting list for the 2028 Trabant.
 

valuv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,604
Dumb question but why are conservative states called red states when socialism/communism was always referred to as being red. Like wasn't the anti communist slogan 'better dead than red'?
Asking as a Canadian where our liberal party is red and conservative is blue.
 

Zed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,544
Dumb question but why are conservative states called red states when socialism/communism was always referred to as being red. Like wasn't the anti communist slogan 'better dead than red'?
Asking as a Canadian where our liberal party is red and conservative is blue.

The 2000 election became a spectacle after it was not decided on election night. Networks unified having Democrats be blue and Republicans be red to not confuse people. Before that there was no standard color for either party.
 

BocoDragon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,207
The 2000 election became a spectacle after it was not decided on election night. Networks unified having Democrats be blue and Republicans be red to not confuse people. Before that there was no standard color for either party.
Wow is this true? That would be a real "you thought it was around forever but it's pretty new" revelation for me.
 

Giant Panda

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,688
If they stick to social democracy, then that's all well and good. If are actual socialists though, then I hope they fail spectacularly so that the economic lunacy becomes a dormant fringe position again.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
I bet most millennial socialists aren't socialists so much as anti-republicans.

Like you're really ride or die for the government taking more of your paycheck and funding bigger government programs with it? Really? I kinda don't believe it.
Considering it goes back in to cheaper healthcare, student loans, other government programs and shit which milennials need more than disposable income... yes. Especially since more of a socialist slant would improve wages anyway, improve working conditions for shitty jobs which we usually have and tax big corporations and the rich more.

People who have enough political knowledge to call themselves socialists would generally at least know the basics of the actual ideology...
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
Dumb question but why are conservative states called red states when socialism/communism was always referred to as being red. Like wasn't the anti communist slogan 'better dead than red'?
Asking as a Canadian where our liberal party is red and conservative is blue.
Democrats being blue and Republicans being read started appending after the 2000 election I believe.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
If they stick to social democracy, then that's all well and good. If are actual socialists though, then I hope they fail spectacularly so that the economic lunacy becomes a dormant fringe position again.
Most aren't advocating full scale economic socialism outside of like the actual DSA but God forbid we try and fixed the absolutely fucked economy we have now.

I agree. Capitalism should definitely never, ever, be allowed a comeback.
This discussion is funny to me considering Marx wrote about communism not as a desired end goal or dream system, just as an inevitability of capitalism.
 

GrooveCommand

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,340
I bet most millennial socialists aren't socialists so much as anti-republicans.

Like you're really ride or die for the government taking more of your paycheck and funding bigger government programs with it? Really? I kinda don't believe it.

Millennial here; I would gladly pay more taxes to fund government programs. I think a lot of problems in our country are created because of the vast amount of inequality in our country. If everyone was able to have a comfortable living I think our country would be infinitely better.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Millennial here; I would gladly pay more taxes to fund government programs. I think a lot of problems in our country are created because of the vast amount of inequality in our country. If everyone was able to have a comfortable living I think our country would be infinitely better.
Yep. And again, higher wages for lower class workers, better benefits and labor laws, cheaper access to healthcare, cheaper student loans and college tuition, and more social safety nets. I can totally see why a poor millennial would hate these policies /s

There's a reason why Bernie had a cult following among young people.
 

GrooveCommand

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,340
If they stick to social democracy, then that's all well and good. If are actual socialists though, then I hope they fail spectacularly so that the economic lunacy becomes a dormant fringe position again.

Oh yeah because Capitalism is just working out so well for us isn't it? Sometimes you have to try new things and fail if you ever want to grow.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Oh yeah because Capitalism is just working out so well for us isn't it? Sometimes you have to try new things and fail if you ever want to grow.
Except it doesn't even fail. Look at established 1st world countries with more restricted capitalism/economic socialist policies. Unless you define a good economy solely by GDP or wank off to corporation profits or whatever.
 

Giant Panda

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,688
Most aren't advocating full scale economic socialism outside of like the actual DSA but God forbid we try and fixed the absolutely fucked economy we have now.


This discussion is funny to me considering Marx wrote about communism not as a desired end goal or dream system, just as an inevitability of capitalism.
Uh, I said social democracy would be a good thing. Socialism though would fuck up the economy more.

Also just because Marx wrote something doesn't make it true. He believed in the Labor theory of value which is just stupid. Communism literally can't exist until we are post scarcity, which we are nowhere near.
 

valuv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,604
The 2000 election became a spectacle after it was not decided on election night. Networks unified having Democrats be blue and Republicans be red to not confuse people. Before that there was no standard color for either party.
Very interesting! I'm still confused about how red went from communism to republican though.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Uh, I said social democracy would be a good thing. Socialism though would fuck up the economy more.

Also just because Marx wrote something doesn't make it true. He believed in the Labor theory of value which is just stupid. Communism literally can't exist until we are post scarcity, which we are nowhere near.
The LTV wasn't the only reason he saw communism emerging from capitalism....he thought it would occur from a revolution of the proletariat due to automation replacing labor and wages for the common worker be driven under subsistence levels... sound familiar?

Oh yeah, it's exactly what's plaguing America now/in a few years.
 

antonz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,309
Was hopeful with Ocasio-Cortez because the other day she tweeted a decent enough acknowledgement that you need to run a 50 state campaign which means not everyone will be as hard left as they should be in say a deep blue state or district. Then today she shoots out that Sanders beat Clinton in Kansas and other states Clinton lost in the General which heavily implies its Clintons fault she wasn't left enough in deep red states but somehow Bernie would have won them all. Cannot eyeroll enough now
 

RexNovis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,151
As much as I think our current system is broken I think the idea that socialism is the only answer is just not true. The reason our current system is so broken isn't because it's capitlaostoc but because it's an elevated form of crony capitalism where those with the most money have free license to influence the rules and laws in their favor.

The single most detrimental event to our economic development was citizens united. The idea that corporations have the rights of the individual and that money is a form of speech has proved devastating to government regulation and oversight. The invisible hand of the market has suddenly wrestled control of the very regulatory body that exists to keep it in check and the result is what we are seeing today.

If we want to see things change politically and economically we should be looking at ways to overturn the citizens united ruling. Until we get the influence of lobbying and money or of politics we will simply not see any meaningful change on any direction. It frustrating to me seeing how little y'all and pushback there is around the issue of lobbying in the modern political spectrum. This should be something everyone agrees is a source of corruption.

TLDR: Socialism isn't the answer its a failed economic system. The answer is to fight against and eliminate crony capitalism.
 
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Giant Panda

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,688
The LTV wasn't the only reason he saw communism emerging from capitalism....he thought it would occur from a revolution of the proletariat due to automation replacing labor and wages for the common worker be driven under subsistence levels... sound familiar?

Oh yeah, it's exactly what's plaguing America now/in a few years.
Yeah, he foresaw a dictatorship of the proletariat. The dictatorship never ends though and a new elite replaces the old. Not a stateless communist utopia.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Yeah, he foresaw a dictatorship of the proletariat. The dictatorship never ends though and a new elite replaces the old. Not a stateless communist utopia.
I'm not sure where I ever said he saw it as a utopia, in fact I explicitly said the opposite.
 

Quixzlizx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,591
As someone from the outside who takes socialist values for granted, it has been incredibly encouraging seeing stigmatization about socialism dissipate in large circles of the US population in response to the rise of fascism. Honestly didn't think y'all had it in you, but I guess it was always there - just avoided being talked about during the 90s and the oughts.
Sweden isn't socialist.
 

Ceyrun

Banned
Jun 26, 2018
16
Was hopeful with Ocasio-Cortez because the other day she tweeted a decent enough acknowledgement that you need to run a 50 state campaign which means not everyone will be as hard left as they should be in say a deep blue state or district. Then today she shoots out that Sanders beat Clinton in Kansas and other states Clinton lost in the General which heavily implies its Clintons fault she wasn't left enough in deep red states but somehow Bernie would have won them all. Cannot eyeroll enough now

Congratulations on missing the point.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Congratulations on missing the point.
I haven't seen it but I feel it could be interpreted either in the quoted way or that there are a lot of strong progressives in the Democratic party in the Midwest that people take for granted. Idk I'll check it out later
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
The point is that stateless communism is impossible. It isn't coming.
Again I never said that lol. Just that I found it amusing that people were bickering about communism versus capitalism coming and going and the most prominent and one of the earliest writers about communism said that they were forever linked basically.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
We live in a society that favors money over care. We were talking about healthcare at the time, but it is something that can be attributed to pretty much everything else. It's why you are in so much debt to pay for a vehicle you need to get to places. It's why you have to pay thousands of dollars for college tuition. It's why you pay high property taxes in a popular city. We've worshipped the dollar while ignoring the beggar. Please, make no mistake you and I and others like us are beggars. We took away at jobs we might not like for little pay that gets us by for the next two weeks. We struggle to save our money for worthwhile ventures only for the next overdue bill or, god forbid, emergency to wipe us out. We live on the razors edge between prosperity and oblivion and always leaning into destruction. Meanwhile, our bosses and their bosses and their bosses make that money. That's all well and good. Can't fault them for trying to be better. But they make that money while we have to scrape by in food stamps! We try to make things better for ourselves, but they point the fingers elsewhere and tell us "it's those people's fault. Be mad at them?" Seriously, those people? The very same ones that are struggling in the very same situation as we are? They are not the ones telling us we can't get paid sick days. The are not the ones telling us we don't deserve a higher minimum wage while also making millions. It is the bosses of this country, the ones who sit at the table making those big decisions that lower their taxes but keeps ours high and send the jobs we work overseas. We don't have banks full of money to pay those taxes but they buy luxury cars off of your backs! You all know the saying; divide and conquer, right? We've been divided up, angry at the wrong people. These people have been battered by the same machine that is beating you right now except in different, insidious ways. We are the People! Every single one of us. Doesn't matter what color you are or what God you pray to or whether or not you're a guy or gal or identify as one or the other or neither! Keep that anger but make sure it is aimed true! It's time to take our fight to the ones who are truly at fault and demand that they give us Medicare for all, free college tuition and debt forgiveness, a higher minimum wage, etc.

That or something to that effect is a possible way to sell it to rural areas. Redirect their anger and frustration to the real targets. It won't be easy of course, but it can happen. Most of the conservative people I've talked to know deep down that corporations are shitty and will do anything for a buck. Could even throw in some scripture, too.
 

Fuzzery

Member
Oct 25, 2017
489
There has to be a middle ground somewhere, capitalism generally can work great, but I think we need strong social nets eventually. Everyone should have free housing/healthcare/education
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
Was hopeful with Ocasio-Cortez because the other day she tweeted a decent enough acknowledgement that you need to run a 50 state campaign which means not everyone will be as hard left as they should be in say a deep blue state or district. Then today she shoots out that Sanders beat Clinton in Kansas and other states Clinton lost in the General which heavily implies its Clintons fault she wasn't left enough in deep red states but somehow Bernie would have won them all. Cannot eyeroll enough now

lmao. sorry buddy, purity tests forever
 

FeliciaFelix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,778
Parts of America still have a hated and fear of anything remotely socialist and communist since the Cold War. Red States tend to lean on this fear so it makes it near impossible for a socialist to win it, it's also why Republicans call the Democrats "socialists", to stoke the fires of that fear and hatred.

Not gonna lie, I thought socialism was dead and buried in the 80s. By continuing to whine about commies and generally being oppressive assholes, the GOP managed to bring it back to life as a real thing instead of a boogieman to scare old people at night. Good job, GOP?

This is and always will be true. Real socialists and other populist leftists have a much higher chance of winning over rural voters than liberal capitalists.

Why? Legit question.