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Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,293
I decided to make this thread because seeing everyone and their moms repeatedly insulting GameFreak for their "lack of ambition" or "laziness" or apparently for their unwillingness to spend more money to make Pokémon games look better is absolutely maddening especially now that people have been using Let's Go as a point of comparison between other major Nintendo games on the Switch to further try and prove their point, going as far as advocating for Nintendo to "step in" and give the series to another development team.
Of course Let's Go doesn't look as good as Mario Odyssey or Breath of the Wild. It was developed in 2 years, as a conservative remake of a 21 year old GameBoy game. I'm sure if they intended it to be a high budget high-profile game they would have marketed it as such.
But it doesn't end here as apparently GameFreak have always been behind the curve in terms of graphical prowess. That is if you ignore the fact they have exclusively been using handhelds, and that their games have been some of the best looking games on said platforms.

So let's look at their first 3DS game, which is also their first attempt at a 3D game, and let's compare it to other mainline entries of other major Nintendo franchises.

Pokémon X & Y:

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Super Mario 3D Land:

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It stacks up pretty decently, despite 3D Land being 60 fps as opposed to 30 thanks to more confined areas and simple shapes and textures.

Zelda A Link Between Worlds:

Iz9kASd.png


In this case Pokémon definitely looks better and has more dynamic camera angles instead of a strictly top-down view like Zelda.
"B-but A Link Between Worlds isn't from the more modern 3D Zelda line!" You mean like Let's Go isn't from the new generation of Pokémon and as such was never gonna push for advanced graphics? Fair point indeed.

Let's look at Ocarina of Time 3D then:

BVx4csc.png


Its environments aren't designed around a grid like XY and are overall more open, but at the cost of looking barren for the most part. Art style differences apart, the end result isn't that much better but it comes down to personal preferences.

However Sun and Moon exist, and show again how amazingly good looking Pokémon can be:

la65724.png


No more grid based design, wider areas, tons of details and more graphical effects and dynamic cameras. Definitely my favorite looking game on the 3DS, far from a low budget title with no effort put in it. And before someone says it: no, the overworld in Sun and Moon does not suffer from fps drops.

We've already got a small glimpse of what they can do on Switch when not tied down by the scope of the project: "Town" again features a fully 3D environmental design like Sun and Moon (perhaps even with a controllable camera), albeit with an even more cartoony, simpler style and an effectively low budget, as normal for an eShop-only title.




I hope many will reconsider endlessly criticizing them with no justified reason, but I don't have many hopes in this regard, not until they'll finally show generation 8 to be an appropriate looking game for the Switch, to the surprise of no one everyone.
 

Deleted member 2793

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,368
I used to defend them over this because they did fine with DS/3DS hardware (tho the games still had problems content and difficulty wise), but after let's go I don't feel like defending them anymore.
 

Raijinto

self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
10,091
The Pokemon games on 3DS were great. Not outstanding or anything but still great. I don't get the venom in this way.
 

Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,108
NYC
Idk how true it is, I have my own opinions but don't care enough to argue them, but I think the argument has more to do with the game play largely remaining the same, not the graphics. Where Zelda and Mario games you listed are vast departures from previous formulas and then we're vastly changed again after that (assuming you're referring to OoT in its original context, it's a weird thing to bash limitations of an n64 remake when it's still very beholden to adhering to the original).

The graphics imo are very good in sun and moon and let's go shows some promise, but I hope they continue to improve and change things up.

There's also the fact that there's just so much Pokémon output. When you have a game a year and incremental changes, it doesn't read as innovative as when you release a game in a franchise every 3+ years and it's different almost every time. Not saying that's a problem, just I imagine, it contributes to the perception.
 
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Aleh

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,293
I used to defend them over this because they did fine with DS/3DS hardware (tho the games still had problems content and difficulty wise), but after let's go I don't feel like defending them anymore.
Let's Go was either gonna be lower budget and a straight remake or it was probably not gonna happen at all. It has nothing to do with the expectations of a normal mainline game, just like A Link Between Worlds was never gonna be on the same level of Windwaker on GameCube.
 

aiswyda

Member
Aug 11, 2018
3,093
I think the Pokemon 3DS games are way more graphically interesting and colorful than Let's Go. Part of that is that they're working off already extant games, which I get, but it's really visually uninteresting. In fact, I think Let's Go has only reinforced the fact the original games were super bare bones--I wish they had done more to bring them to life.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,617
Ocarina of Time 3D is a remaster of an N64 game and basically a 3DS launch title vs X&Y which came out 2 and a half years later.
Doesn't really help your point.

Biggest issue with Let's Go is that it's tile based and it makes a lot of the more natural environments look rather jarring.

Sun and Moon looks good for 3DS, tho.
We'll see if Pokémon 2019 stacks up to other major installments of tentpoll franchises
 
Nov 17, 2017
12,864
I don't really understand the comparison between Ocarina of Time 3D and Pokemon Sun and Moon. Not only is OoT3D a much older game (being an early 3DS title) and also being a remake of an N64 game, I don't think you can hold the environments against it compared to S&M which are more recent and new games.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,060
Sun and Moon were a step up over the usual fare. I think it's perfectly fair to call some of the prior entries unambitious though.
 

Charamiwa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,053
Town looks like a PS2 era Level 5 game. And I mean it as a compliment, I love that look. But it's telling that was have to praise that so much, especially since it's just one town. Let's Go doesn't look up to par at all, especially when it comes to animation and level design. We'll see next year.
 
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Aleh

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,293
Guys there is not a single mainline 3D Zelda game exclusive to the 3DS, I had to make do with what I had.
 

1000% H

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,639
I like the part when you send out a Pokemon with wings and the already struggling framerate just tanks.
 

MarcelRguez

Member
Nov 7, 2018
2,418
I don't have many issues with the graphical quality of SM, and I get that Let's Go was never going to be the technical leap that people expected. It's the bland art direction what's killing the games for me.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
The problem with Let's Go is that aside from the resolution bump, which it a given and shouldn't be an accomplishment given the massive power difference between the 3DS and Switch, it looks worse than SuMo. Even taking into consideration it's a remake, they chose an art style that isn't any more reflective of Yellow than SuMo were, but looks worse.

SuMo do look good, although I still think the world was a bit too "flat". For instance, every single city in the game is more or less flat, or at the most tiered like in the 2D games instead of using natural 3D topography.

Anyway, this doesn't really dispel the ambition claims which are 100% true. The games seem to miss features that have been present in other JRPGs for years. They only just barely started realizing the concept of NPC side quests
 

Cokesouls

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,350
Gamefreak is weird. Let's go isn't innovative and the graphics aren't groundbreaking even for switch, but Let's go is under my top 5 favorite pkm games.
They're a weird developer that are very hit and miss for me.
 

weebro

Banned
Nov 7, 2018
1,191
Considering they just came out and said Pokemon Let's Go was made in 2 years with ~100 staff, that literally sounds low budget. Most games have more than double the staff or double the dev time if not double both.
 

Deleted member 2793

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,368
I like the part when you send out a Pokemon with wings and the already struggling framerate just tanks.
Not to mention some of them looking terrible.

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Does anyone think the hate at least partially stems from the fact that people have wanted a mainline Pokémon game on console?

Not in my case personally. I love BW/BW2's art and XY/SM are generally fine (SM improves a lot on characters models and scenarios). Problem is that their first console game is, imo, the worst looking Pokémon game ever.
 

Opposable

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,367
The fact we are still hearing Pokemon cries that originated from games over 20 years old is pretty lame.
 

Vylder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,256
Considering Pokemon is the highest-grossing media franchise in the world, I think it's fair to say that Pokemon games are low budget games (they're great games though, but what I'm saying is that many people would love to see what a big budget Pokemon game would look like).
 

Zen Hero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,628
Sun and Moon look pretty good, but they're not really the best looking 3DS games. The Yokai Watch games look better, for example. And let's not ignore the fact that Sun and Moon ran pretty poorly, with frequent frame drops.

I feel it's all a moot point though, because not many games looked great in the 3DS period. In my eyes, the next Switch game will be the real test. If they can deliver a game that looks at least as good as Xenoblade 2, I'll be happy. That should be doable. Otherwise, I'll continue to lament about Gamefreak not reaching their true potential :P
 

the lizard

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,862
I mean, though the granular, technical, or artistic aspects of the graphics may change from game to game or generation to generation, there appears to be very little risk taken: the games still use an isometric viewpoint that's (IMO) better-suited to a grid-based game and makes the world feel very small.

But beyond that, I think the "unambiguous" criticism applies as much to the gameplay systems as the graphics. Seems like they don't invest too much into actual game design from generation to generation—it's more just pumping out aesthetically new Pokemon.
 
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Aleh

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,293
Town looks like a PS2 era Level 5 game. And I mean it as a compliment, I love that look. But it's telling that was have to praise that so much, especially since it's just one town. Let's Go doesn't look up to par at all, especially when it comes to animation and level design. We'll see next year.
I hope you mean purely in terms of aesthetics, because that's really not what PS2 games look like. Heck that's what some crazy people say about BOTW sometimes, I kid you not.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,617
Outside of being a downgrade from sun and moon in many artistic decisions, it's also a bummer than their "3DS's frame rate dies because the Pokémon models are too high poly and future proofed!" Models already look outdated in their first game after the 3DS era.

Not sure if Pokémon 2019 will make them better, but they probably need a bit more than a new coat of paint.


Lots of great ideas in Let's go that would probably make 2019 better, so hopefully they do take from it.
Pokémon in the overworld and following you is smart, having starters always be in your party and having those close ups which look graphically pretty nice seems like something they should stick to as well. Maybe even keep the random battles out.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
If they can deliver a game that looks at least as good as Xenoblade 2, I'll be happy. That should be doable. Otherwise, I'll continue to lament about Gamefreak not reaching their true potential :P
It should be considering Monolith is around the same size as Gamefreak, but they're clearly much more technically skilled/competent developers
 

Mory Dunz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,359
Low budget? Dunno

near technically incompetent? Ya
Aren't there frame drops in Let's Go
 

Aters

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,948
As if graphic is the only thing people complain about....

As far as I'm concerned they can go back to GBA graphic. I want meaty post game. I want varied dungeons. I want challenge. I want better sound effect. I want stable framerate.
 
Jun 12, 2018
633
Yeah...most people are definitely talking about the gameplay and systems when they talk about this, not the graphics or sound(even though those also could use work...why am I still hearing the same pokemon cries from two decades ago?)
 
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Aleh

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,293
Considering Pokemon is the highest-grossing media franchise in the world, I think it's fair to say that Pokemon games are low budget games

No amount of budget can go beyond technical limitations. They were still running on the 3DS.
Let's Go is indeed low-budget, but they never tried to imply it was the next big step for the series, just like Nintendo didn't try to pretend ALBW was on the level of their new 3D Zelda games.

And let's not ignore the fact that Sun and Moon ran pretty poorly, with frequent frame drops.
That only happens in battles, and for an obvious reason that won't apply to the Switch games anymore (the poly count of the Pokémon models). The overworld doesn't have any frame drops
 

Linde

Banned
Sep 2, 2018
3,983
I really hope the 2019 games take the Sun and Moon approach to the next level with a fully third person view.
Ideally I'd hope it looks like DQXI

but their 3DS games definitely looked great. Its such a popular series though, you're bound to hear a ton of complaining. Lets Go doesnt really push any boundaries, but looks good for its simplistic art style
 

Aters

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,948
No amount of budget can go beyond technical limitations. They were still running on the 3DS.
Let's Go is indeed low-budget, but they never tried to imply it was the next big step for the series, just like Nintendo didn't try to pretend ALBW was on the level of their new 3D Zelda games.


That only happens in battles, and for an obvious reason that won't apply to the Switch games anymore (the poly count of the Pokémon models). The overworld doesn't have any frame drops
It also doesn't have 3D effect, which basically all other 3DS games have.
 
Oct 25, 2017
14,646
I'm not going to say they're total trash or anything but I have to admit they're not known for their technical proficiency, and their content volume is sometimes surprising when contrasted with how much cash they're raking in.
 
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Aleh

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,293
Put Yokai watch up there as a comparison you coward.
The point of this thread isn't to declare the best looking game. It's to show that only GameFreak receives complaints for the way their games look, despite other major Nintendo games looking on par or worse and being completely void of criticism on that front.
 
Nov 23, 2017
4,302
You are right OP, but the same exact haters from every other Pokémon thread on here will just come in and repeat their tastes as if it means something objective and that game freak should only appeal to them and what they want.


And then the botw Pokémon people will come...
 

Austriacus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
722
The point of this thread isn't to declare the best looking game. It's to show that only GameFreak receives complaints for the way their games look, despite other major Nintendo games looking on par or worse and being completely void of criticism on that front.

Holy shit dude, the other games are not the most succesfull entertainment franchise of all time! The games SHOULD be better than everything else
 

TreeMePls

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,258
Double battles and above were borderline unplayable during 6th gen due to the complete slow down the game goes through when you do them. S/M were better but the slowdowns are still there
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,617
You mean like how people use a GameBoy remake to bolster of much GameFreak sucks?
Zelda and Mario teams put out BOTW and Odyssey on switch already so they get props.
Can't give GameFreak props for something they haven't done yet.

Also, a reimagining of a GameBoy game in 3D is a bit different than an N64 game with nicer visuals.
 

Pein

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,219
NYC
They're a very basic dev, they could never wow me I don't think.

Ambition isn't their best quality.
 
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Aleh

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,293
Zelda and Mario teams put out BOTW and Odyssey on switch already so they get props.
Can't give GameFreak props for something they haven't done yet.

Also, a reimagining of a GameBoy game in 3D is a bit different than an N64 game with nicer visuals.
Yeah, it's different because it required a lot more work...
And it's not about giving them props for something they haven't done yet, it's about not shitting on what they have already done. People act like they have been making horrible and dated games for 21 years.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Game Freak had an excuse up to the DS, but as of the 3DS, they been outclassed by their contemporaries despite being able to afford a much larger budget. For pokémon 2019, they really need to step their game up and show what a 16M+ selling franchise can really do.