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The narrative that mainline Pokémon games are low budget or unambitious is ridiculous and tiring.

Apr 26, 2018
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I used to defend them over this because they did fine with DS/3DS hardware (tho the games still had problems content and difficulty wise), but after let's go I don't feel like defending them anymore.
I find my self in the same situation. M/S might not be the best, neither my prefered or even good, but at least they look somehow ambitious.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
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I wouldn't call the mainline games unambitious. Rushed and with sometimes questionable priorities but not unambitious.

Let's Go is textbook unambitious and low budget, though. Especially when compared to previous remakes.
 
Oct 26, 2017
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What? I never said that.
My point is saying HGSS is one of the best looking games on the DS is purely subjective and the same can be said about Let's Go.
I think that's a stretch. The DS has a number of 3D games, but most of them look like ass. As such, to me, the games I have most fondness for in the graphics/art department are typically 2D games, and among those I think the Pokemon games are pretty damn good.

The Switch however is far more powerful than the- actually dude, come on, are we going to sit here and act like someone could really think Let's Go is one of the best looking games on the Switch? The console with games like Breath of the Wild or Doom?
 
Oct 27, 2017
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Yeah...sorry but no. All the pokemon games on 3DS ran terribly, they couldn't even achieve 3D and when they did the framerate would simply die.
In your comparisons, both SM3DL and Z:ALBW both run at 60 fps and look clear as hell on the 3DS.

And if you're going to compare the game to other games on the 3DS, compare it to ones like KI:U, MH 4, RE:R that look way better and have way more particles and fx on screen and can still run at a consistent framerate and achieve 3D. Oh and all of them came before or on the year the first Pokemon released on 3DS. So yeah, not really seeing how placing some screens here proves anything.

On the let's go department, I think the game looks good, but it's just because it's in HD, jumping from Xeno 2 to Pokemon was extremely underwhelming, even if Xeno 2 had some major resolution problems. Project town also doesn't look spectacular.

This coming from a company that has one of the most known IPs in gaming history is extremely underwhelming. But I am excited to see how next gen looks.
 
OP
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Aleh
Oct 27, 2017
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Yeah...sorry but no. All the pokemon games on 3DS ran terribly, they couldn't even achieve 3D and when they did the framerate would simply die.
In your comparisons, both SM3DL and Z:ALBW both run at 60 fps and look clear as hell on the 3DS.

And if you're going to compare the game to other games on the 3DS, compare it to ones like KI:U, MH 4, RE:R that look way better and have way more particles and fx on screen and can still run at a consistent framerate and achieve 3D. Oh and all of them came before or on the year the first Pokemon released on 3DS. So yeah, not really seeing how placing some screens here proves anything.
I've been corrected, 3D Land runs at 30fps. And ALBW just looks like ass. Also, as I stated multiple times, the Pokémon games do NOT have frame drops in the overworld. And I still think they look better than even Monster Hunter or Kid Icarus. Resident Evil goes for a completely different look however.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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I agree op. Their handheld games have always looked solid in comparison to their contemporaries. It's actually why I'm so disappointed in Let's Go. It really is the first time Game freak has seemingly ignored new hardware for a new Pokemon. Town does look nice and I'm sure Gen 8 will look better than people expect.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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You know what, a game that isnt broken day 1, isnt half a game for $60 with a promisr for future patched content should be commended. Nintendo fans are sometimes spoiled rotten and of all the $60 releases last month Lets Go stacks up well. Pokemon Co gets way too much criticism, some deserved others not. On the complete psckage at launch metric they deserve a god damned medal compared to what the other pubs are releasing.
We're spoiled because we expect a game to work as intended? Get the fuck outta here with that. Shipping a complete game without debilitating bugs is the baseline, not an achievement. I'm not giving Game Freak credit for shipping a working game, I'm giving other companies shit for shipping broken ones.
 
OP
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Aleh
Oct 27, 2017
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Let's Go straight up tanks in the OW with more than like 2 Pokemon on screen at times.
Let's Go has frame drops in a specific part of Viridian Forest regardless of how many Pokémon appear on screen. The game doesn't lag in other areas even with 5+ Pokémon on screen. It's mostly a technical issue with the outdated engine.
 
Oct 26, 2017
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The jump from FRLG graphics to Let's Go is much much bigger than the jump from GSC to HGSS though. The point isn't that Let's Go is a super good looking game, because it's just okay, my point is that it is not meant to be anything other than a simple remake. Could it have been an ambitious remake instead? Yes, but they chose to put their effort into a new generation instead, and thank goodness they did, I may add. If all they were gonna make on Switch is Let's Go level games then you'd have a point.

The real shake up in the formula were Sun and Moon anyways. All Let's Go did was kill wild battles in favor of Go catching, though it also removed random encounter which I agree is a very good feature.
Don't talk about new generation when you haven't seen shit yet. LG is all we get now, and it's not ambitious. If new gen is indeed ambitious, the narrative will change.
Please show me a video where XY or Sun and Moon lag in the overworld.


It's running on the old generation 7 engine. Monster Hunter Ultimate Generations also runs at 30fps.
Now you are comparing a game made from groundup to a 3DS port. And there's zero evidence that shows GF is switching engine.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
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The mainline pokemon games ARE unambitious. Being pretty doesn't mean good. The plot, gameplay loop, difficulty curve etc are all stock standard and provide no real challenge or interest to the player.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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And ALBW just looks like ass. Also, as I stated multiple times, the Pokémon games do NOT have frame drops in the overworld.
Something tells me you're not speaking in good faith. And the DF video for Let's Go has a segment about XY where there are frame dips in Lumiose.

EDIT: Also funny, in and of itself, that you have to add the "in the overworld" qualifier at all.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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I agree op. Their handheld games have always looked solid in comparison to their contemporaries. It's actually why I'm so disappointed in Let's Go. It really is the first time Game freak has seemingly ignored new hardware for a new Pokemon. Town does look nice and I'm sure Gen 8 will look better than people expect.
I loved Gen 3, but they most certainly did not look solid compared to anything, but the GB Pokemon games.
 
OP
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Aleh
Oct 27, 2017
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I don't have video, but I consistently get slowdowns at the start of Route 6 in XY.
I just tried on my copy of X, and I don't get slowdowns. Are you sure it's Route 6? Tested on a normal 3DS by the way.

The mainline pokemon games ARE unambitious. Being pretty doesn't mean good. The plot, gameplay loop, difficulty curve etc are all stock standard and provide no real challenge or interest to the player.
The plot of Sun and Moon is different and good. The difficulty is the hardest of the series. Gameplay loop is different because they canned Gyms (and Trials or especially Totem Battles aren't the same thing)
 
Oct 25, 2017
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I've been corrected, 3D Land runs at 30fps. And ALBW just looks like ass. Also, as I stated multiple times, the Pokémon games do NOT have frame drops in the overworld. And I still think they look better than even Monster Hunter or Kid Icarus. Resident Evil goes for a completely different look however.
LBW *is* 60fps, tho. It’s more excused and the main Zelda team was working on something much bigger.

Kid Icarus looks way better, came out a year and a half earlier too.

As I’ve mentioned before, it’s hard to compare the games you’ve listed while defending Pokémon when Pokémon/GF haven’t proven themselves the way the others have.
People will eat crow when/if Pokémon 2019 impresses
 
Oct 25, 2017
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The plot of Sun and Moon is different and good. The difficulty is the hardest of the series. Gameplay loop is different because they canned Gyms (and Trials or especially Totem Battles aren't the same thing)
The plot is not good by any narrative standpoint but I suppose that's subjective. The 'difference' between Trials/Totems and Gyms is so superficial, it doesn't offer a meaningfully different experience, and even then both are dull as dishwater.

It's not even close to the hardest in the series. It's one of, if not THE easiest. I don't know what game you played.
 
OP
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Aleh
Oct 27, 2017
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Something tells me you're not speaking in good faith. And the DF video for Let's Go has a segment about XY where there are frame dips in Lumiose.

EDIT: Also funny, in and of itself, that you have to add the "in the overworld" qualifier at all.
Dips to 28 fps while moving fast between areas in the biggest area of the game which also happens to have a free camera? Technical incompetency I say! Man BOTW and Xenoblade 2 devs must be ass too because they drop frames a lot more.

To be accused of speaking in bad faith for bringing up counter points and insight on many different games across multiple developers and franchises with the only intention of offering a different view over just bandwagon shitposts about GameFreak, is really something.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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I loved Gen 3, but they most certainly did not look solid compared to anything, but the GB Pokemon games.
You know what, I'll agree with Gen 3 and I'd add in Gen 6. That said 2, 4, 7 and look pretty good. Gen 5 looks exceptional, and I'd say are the most appealing game on the DS. At the end of the day they been hit more often than not, which is why Let's Go looks so bad. It looks way worse than SuMo aside from being in HD.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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Let's Go has frame drops in a specific part of Viridian Forest regardless of how many Pokémon appear on screen. The game doesn't lag in other areas even with 5+ Pokémon on screen. It's mostly a technical issue with the outdated engine.
I forget the route number, but the one east of Celadon has tanked super hard numerous times for me if 2 Pidgeotto spawn in with any other Pokemon on handheld. This is anecdotal ofc, but still.
 
Sep 2, 2018
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Lol people saying the 3DS games ran poorly.

The worst things that would happen to the average player was some slowdown during battles with a lot of pokemon or fire, or with 3D turned on.
Otherwise gamefreak's games have pretty much always been super well polished aside from RBY.
 
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Aleh
Oct 27, 2017
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It's not even close to the hardest in the series. It's one of, if not THE easiest. I don't know what game you played.
The only Pokémon games harder than Sun and Moon are Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon. And many people agree with me. They are the only ones that really gave me trouble since probably Diamond.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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I just tried on my copy of X, and I don't get slowdowns. Are you sure it's Route 6? Tested on a normal 3DS by the way.


The plot of Sun and Moon is different and good. The difficulty is the hardest of the series. Gameplay loop is different because they canned Gyms (and Trials or especially Totem Battles aren't the same thing)
Yeah, right at the entrance (from Route 7). It's more obvious if you're on roller skates. It's not a big deal, but it exists.
 
Oct 27, 2017
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We're spoiled because we expect a game to work as intended? Get the fuck outta here with that. Shipping a complete game without debilitating bugs is the baseline, not an achievement. I'm not giving Game Freak credit for shipping a working game, I'm giving other companies shit for shipping broken ones.
Spoiled because in the landscape of $60 releases more and more games launch incomplete and this includes titles using prebaked engines and copy paste assets to a large extent.
 
Nov 7, 2017
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For the most part this discussion mostly ignores the console side of Pokémon. There was clearl a demand for Pokémon games on consoles shown with the 64 and GF has been totally unable to capitalise on it. Even when the wii exploded in popularity Pokemon was practically non existent and what Pokémon games have been made for consoles are hardly spectacular.
 
Dec 21, 2017
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1) Pokémon is probably the only huge successful franchise that was created by essentially an indie studio who still wants to stay small to preserve the spirit of the company. So the Pokémon open-world some fans want would be like asking Inti Creates to make GTA 6.

2) Game Freak thought the next mainline Pokémon game could have been on phones (those type of games are much smaller) and they still feel the need to integrate Go and its mechanics into the main series.

3) In the past two 2 years (2017-18) they released:
- Giga Wrecker
- Pokémon US/UM
- Pokémon Quest
- Pokémon Let's Go P/E

and we already saw gameplay footage of Town which is coming next year. That's a lot of games for such a small studio.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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Dips to 28 fps while moving fast between areas in the biggest area of the game which also happens to have a free camera? Technical incompetency I say! Man BOTW and Xenoblade 2 devs must be ass too because they drop frames a lot more.

To be accused of speaking in bad faith for bringing up counter points and insight on many different games across multiple developers and franchises with the only intention of offering a different view over just bandwagon shitposts about GameFreak, is really something.
Bad faith? You mean the part where the camera is so far up your character's ass and the "free" camera is laughably so or the part where you claimed Pokemon has no frame drops in the overworld and specifically asked for video evidence and I off-the-cuff referred you to a video that shows frames drops in the overworld?
 
Feb 1, 2018
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User Warned: “Lazy Devs” Rhetoric. Please review our FAQ.
Pokemon makes a ton more than FF. But they effort they put in is roughly 1/10 of that.

There is no reason why Pokemon can't be cutting edge or at least a cutting title every once in a while or what have. Its a multi billion franchise.

Yes they are lazy and unambitious when much smaller franchises like Ni No Kuni look a fuckton better.
 
Dec 21, 2017
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Pokemon makes a ton more than FF.

There is no reason why Pokemon can't be cutting edge or at least a cuttjng title every once in a while or what have.

Yes they are lazy and unambitious when much smaller franchises like Ni No Kuni look a fuckton better.
They are not lazy, they think a bigger scale Pokémon game could potentially ruin the series, they don't want to break something it worked for more than 20 years.

That's absolutely understandable.
 
Nov 7, 2017
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1) Pokémon is probably the only huge successful franchise that was created by essentially an indie studio who still wants to stay small to preserve the spirit of the company. So the Pokémon open-world some fans want would be like asking Inti Creates to make GTA 6.

2) Game Freak thought the next mainline Pokémon game could have been on phones (those type of games are much smaller) and they still feel the need to integrate Go and its mechanics into the main series.

3) In the past two 2 years (2017-18) they released:
- Giga Wrecker
- Pokémon US/UM
- Pokémon Quest
- Pokémon Let's Go P/E

and we already saw gameplay footage of Town which is coming next year. That's a lot of games for such a small studio.
I think point 1 is where the point of contention comes from. Pokémon is pretty much the biggest franchise in the world and has been making a shit ton of money for the past 20 years. I don’t think that GF wanting to remain a small company is a legitimate excuse. Even if that’s true than the franchise should have been branched out more to other developers particularly on home consoles.

The franchise deserves a budget commensurate with its size as a brand.
 
OP
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Aleh
Oct 27, 2017
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Bad faith? You mean the part where the camera is so far up your character's ass and the "free" camera is laughably so or the part where you claimed Pokemon has no frame drops in the overworld and specifically asked for video evidence and I off-the-cuff referred you to a video that shows frames drops in the overworld?
I don't even know what the bolded is supposed to mean, but the fact you have to look at an fps counter to even notice a slight drop in a very specific part of the game says a lot about the kind of arguments people pull out to shit on GameFreak, all while advocating for Nintendo to take the IP off its own creator to give to developers praised for games with much more obvious and spread frame drops in their games.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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100 people for 2 years is basically AA, so that’s the level of investment we’re talking about for Let’s Go.

I guess we just have to wait till Gen 8 to see how serious they’re going to take Pokemon now it’s going fully HD.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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I don't even know what the bolded is supposed to mean, but the fact you have to look at an fps counter to even notice a slight drop in a very specific part of the game says a lot about the kind of arguments people pull out to shit on GameFreak, all while advocating for Nintendo to take the IP off its own creator to give to developers praised for games with much more obvious and spread frame drops in their games.
You don't have to look at an FPS counter. You're literally making stuff up now, come on.
 
Feb 1, 2018
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They are not lazy, they think a bigger scale Pokémon game could potentially ruin the series, they don't want to break something it worked for more than 20 years.

That's absolutely understandable.
It is understandable but there is no reason why there cant be a major AAA pokemon title once a decade or so alongside their main series.

Being able to deliver Ni No Kuni level visuals and production values should be easily doable and justifiable for investors.
 
Oct 29, 2017
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Outside of the Pokemon models used for battles, X/Y looks absolutely terrible for a 3DS game.

Quite frankly, it looks more like a high-end DS game than an actual 3DS title; and that's not an exaggeration.



Pokemon X/Y: Nintendo 3DS 2013



Golden Sun Dark Dawn: Nintendo DS 2010



Pokemon X/Y: Nintendo 3DS 2013



Golden Sun Dark Dawn: Nintendo DS 2010
Thankfully, Sun/Moon was a big step up; but X/Y's visuals (outside of the 3D models in battles) were absolutely woeful for a 3DS title! It should not be trading blows with a DS game! The fact that it couldn't even run in S3D, despite the absolutely pathetic visual fidelity was a total joke!

Even then, Sun/Moon weren't exactly what I would call high end for the 3DS. It was just about middle of the road (and still lacked S3D support); well, well behind Nintendo and Capcom's efforts on the system.

That being said, the games are definitely not low budget. They are indeed, big ambitious titles; just not in the visual department. There are precious few other RPGs out there on modern consoles with anywhere near the number of unique and handcrafted environments and certainly almost no others with anywhere near the environmental interactivity of the Pokemon series. Their visuals might be simple (and outright bad in the case of X/Y), but the games themselves certainly aren't!
 
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Oct 27, 2017
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They are not lazy, they think a bigger scale Pokémon game could potentially ruin the series, they don't want to break something it worked for more than 20 years.

That's absolutely understandable.
It's really not. In fact, I'd go as far as saying it's one of the most laughable excuses I've ever heard in justification for a major company. Imagine if if Nintendo used the same justification to never experiment with Mario 3D titles, or Zelda titles, or Rockstar used it to keep GTA with an overhead camera, etc. The list goes on. Other developers haven't let success lead them to rest of their laurels or shy away from making bigger and more ambitious games
 

Zelas

Banned
Member
Oct 25, 2017
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The point of this thread isn't to declare the best looking game. It's to show that only GameFreak receives complaints for the way their games look, despite other major Nintendo games looking on par or worse and being completely void of criticism on that front.
Step outside Nintendo's umbrella of fans and you'll find plenty of criticism. That criticism has only grown with the Switch's often laughable attempts among third parties and nintendo developed exclusives. Xenoblade 2 was rightfully trashed technically and artistically.

Regardless, "because I dont think other games are criticized enough, you're not justified in criticizing Pokemon" is such a lazy excuse that ignores all of the financial advantages and power Game Freak and Nintendo have compared to even the elites of this industry.

The lack of ambition criticism has always applied more than just graphics too.
 
Apr 26, 2018
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They are not lazy, they think a bigger scale Pokémon game could potentially ruin the series, they don't want to break something it worked for more than 20 years.

That's absolutely understandable.
I dont think its understandable given how big and well know pokemon franchise is. No, even if the game would end up being a failure, the name and the "new gen" sells for themselves. I dont they're afraid of going big, they just dont think its really necessary given how much supportive their fanbase is.