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The Obi-Wan vs Darth Vader scene is so bad
- Thread starter MillionIII
- Start date
"Amazing climax" and "Episode 3" don't belong together in the same sentence unless we're talking about the amazing blowjob I got after seeing that shit in the theaters
To be clear, I do think that the original fight does have some flaws, especially due to the technical limitations. That said, I wouldn't be so hasty in saying that there wasn't any training there. While Bob Anderson was much more involved with ESB and RotJ (and it absolutely shows), he was still around to work on and direct ANH's fight scene. The only real problem with how Obi Wan fights in ANH is the one goofy spin. Otherwise, it's an acceptable on a technical level fight from an old man trying to hold his own against a stronger foe while also trying to teach one final lesson to his last pupil.
I think that samurai scene is much closer in style to the A New Hope scene but the A New Hope scene is done poorly regardless. I think the reason they posted that was to say that it's not about the flips and flashy moves, it's just that the fight scene is bad and the excuse of it being an old movie doesn't cut it where there are examples of a similar kind of fight but done well. I've never seen that movie with the samurai but I immediately felt this powerful sense of tension in that clip that I don't feel in the Star Wars one. The Star Wars one was always a little funny to me even as a kid.
Yeah it's not a pretty scene, but at least (and most importantly) it's a scene that serves a purpose (Obi-Wan's sacrifice).
Sorry OP, but Episode 3's fight shouldn't have gone on as long as it did.
Best light saber fight is still the Throne Room scene from Return of the Jedi.
Sorry OP, but Episode 3's fight shouldn't have gone on as long as it did.
Best light saber fight is still the Throne Room scene from Return of the Jedi.
The fight scene had more weight behind it than any fight in the PT.
This thread reminds me of when people new to music theory start ragging on old, simple compositions because "there's no depth."
This thread reminds me of when people new to music theory start ragging on old, simple compositions because "there's no depth."
I think it carries it's weight in a different way, but i can understand why it is so bad - but for me, i love Revenge of the Sith because there are some great choreographed battles. Obi-Wan v Anakin is so sick, and i hope that the new one has a really good lightsaber battle.
I'd rather watch the prequels, personally. ROTS is absolutely a better movie than Rogue One.
That's the order they decided to watch. I offered both common orders and they all choose chronological, because that same day we went to see Episode VII.
It's a joke. Had my friends laughing at the old man movements, like he's in serious hip pain.
Truthfully, ep4 is seen as one of the worst by new SW watchers in my experience. I find it to be a slog too, I have no nostalgia to elevate it.
Truthfully, ep4 is seen as one of the worst by new SW watchers in my experience. I find it to be a slog too, I have no nostalgia to elevate it.
This is for the rest of the thread and MillionIII who just doesn't seem to get it.
If you actually read the OP, you'll see that he mentions very little about the actual fight scene and rather summarizes and generalizes their entire interactions as bad. This is actually one of my favorite scenes in the film (and in SW), not for the actual clashing of sabers or shot for shot pieces of action, but for its significance to the story being told ANH and its echos into core of the Skywalker saga.
To call the entire scene "bad" is to miss what makes the film tick (and Star Wars, for that matter) on a very basic, fundamental level.
Obi-Wan teaches Luke about the force and tells him he took "his first step into a larger world". His sacrifice lays the groundwork for what will become Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight and later Master. In the same way Luke is introduced to the force and its significance (ie good triumphs over evil, selfless sacrifice rules over hatred and revenge), he ends his story when facing Kylo. There's a lot of inferential and visual storytelling happening here that the OP completely missed.
Without Obi-Wan's selfless and peaceful sacrifice, he doesn't become one with the force, he doesn't get to help Luke succeed, and the bad guys don't win, the death star doesn't get destroyed and the bad guys reign forever. Luke then doesn't peacefully refuse the emperor and declare himself a Jedi Knight and save his father and the galaxy. Luke doesn't peacefully sacrifice himself in TLJ and save the galaxy a second time, while managing to inspire force users across the galaxy.
Luke Skywalker isn't Luke Skywalker without Obi-Wan's sacrifice and teachings.
But.. let's get back to discussing how the choreography isn't very good because that's what the takeaway is here, right? That a 1-2 minute clashing of sabers in a two hour movie isn't as great or flashy as the rest of the films?
Even though that's not even the main focus of the OP.
They're not "indefensibly bad". They're just not that flashy or explosive, but that's not the focus of the scene. They're sparring with words. Clashing sabers is more of a formality here instead of striking deadly blows in their prime, at this point. Before they even get going, Obi-Wan decides to become one with the force. The only reason why anyone even dies is because Obi-Wan literally sacrifices himself. Sure, the choreography isn't very good and could have definitely been improved in the context of their duel, but this whole "THE WHOLE SCENE IS SO TERRIBLE" that's listed in the OP is complete bullshit.
If you actually read the OP, you'll see that he mentions very little about the actual fight scene and rather summarizes and generalizes their entire interactions as bad. This is actually one of my favorite scenes in the film (and in SW), not for the actual clashing of sabers or shot for shot pieces of action, but for its significance to the story being told ANH and its echos into core of the Skywalker saga.
To call the entire scene "bad" is to miss what makes the film tick (and Star Wars, for that matter) on a very basic, fundamental level.
Obi-Wan teaches Luke about the force and tells him he took "his first step into a larger world". His sacrifice lays the groundwork for what will become Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight and later Master. In the same way Luke is introduced to the force and its significance (ie good triumphs over evil, selfless sacrifice rules over hatred and revenge), he ends his story when facing Kylo. There's a lot of inferential and visual storytelling happening here that the OP completely missed.
Without Obi-Wan's selfless and peaceful sacrifice, he doesn't become one with the force, he doesn't get to help Luke succeed, and the bad guys don't win, the death star doesn't get destroyed and the bad guys reign forever. Luke then doesn't peacefully refuse the emperor and declare himself a Jedi Knight and save his father and the galaxy. Luke doesn't peacefully sacrifice himself in TLJ and save the galaxy a second time, while managing to inspire force users across the galaxy.
Luke Skywalker isn't Luke Skywalker without Obi-Wan's sacrifice and teachings.
But.. let's get back to discussing how the choreography isn't very good because that's what the takeaway is here, right? That a 1-2 minute clashing of sabers in a two hour movie isn't as great or flashy as the rest of the films?
Even though that's not even the main focus of the OP.
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I didn't watch Rebels, but I did see this clip out of context. While I will always think bringing back Maul is ridiculous considering how things went down in the Phantom Menace, in another universe where the prequels were good and the Maul character was fully fleshed out, this is a very classy fight:
The slow pace, the measured dialogue, the single strike that fells Maul. For a piece of new media, they nailed Obi-Wan here. I wouldn't even mind this voice actor coming back for a scene in Episode IX if we see an Obi-Wan force ghost.
The slow pace, the measured dialogue, the single strike that fells Maul. For a piece of new media, they nailed Obi-Wan here. I wouldn't even mind this voice actor coming back for a scene in Episode IX if we see an Obi-Wan force ghost.
I always saw it as an old man trying to wield a dangerous ass weapon, despite being way past his prime, and Vader toying with him.
I don't mind, tbh. Since they are relatively new fans, they were not corrupted by purist ideas or preconceptions about Star Wars. Chronological order is the one they chose and they loved it. They all became fans, which is cool.
User Warned: Hostility towards other members
Your friends are shitheads for watching the prequels before the original trilogy.
As someone who saw Star Wars (as in A New Hope) on VHS around 1981, seeing a "this is bad and doesn't even take the prequel made 25 years later into account"-take is just mind blowing.
Last time I saw something like this, was a dude explaining that R2D2 was clearly beeping sarcastically when Luke meets Ben for the first time, since he had seen the fall of the Jedi.
Last time I saw something like this, was a dude explaining that R2D2 was clearly beeping sarcastically when Luke meets Ben for the first time, since he had seen the fall of the Jedi.
Honestly, it's not even really fair to say that the choreography isn't very good. Given the very specific limitations they were working with, the choreography still does well to actually communicate all the important things it is supposed to.
I mean I love the scene as a whole and some parts are kind finnicky, but I've always loved their duel despite some of those shortcomings. It's just a fantastic scene.
But like you said, considering the tech and what they accomplished, it's pretty damn good.
I can't believe I'm saying this but RLM actually did a pretty good job breaking down why the confrontation in ANH with Vader/Obi is significant and meaningful (Plinkett prequel reviews).
It was the first lightsaber battle ever done in the series. It was compelling enough that they did more of them and tried to one-up the intensity and drama of the scenes each time. In retrospect a lot of stuff in the original series doesn't age well when you have the prequels as context. The fact that Emperor Palpatine dissolves the Imperial Senate is mentioned in a throwaway line by Tarkin and nobody in the room reacts to it in any way. If you were to "remake" the original trilogy, many of the minor lines that turned into huge plot points would become much bigger events. You have to think of this lightsaber battle in much the same way.
Before Obi Wan goes into that fight he's thinking about the last time he fought Anakin on Mustafar and how absolutely old and terrible he is with a lightsaber now.
But after those first few weak taps and an unanswered slow-ass spin, he's probably thinking, "Damn, I might finally kill him."
But after those first few weak taps and an unanswered slow-ass spin, he's probably thinking, "Damn, I might finally kill him."
The OT duels were always more about the verbal sparring than the actual fight choreography. They were about relationships. That's why they'll always mean more than the frenetic prequel duels.
One interesting thing about ANH I learned when watching some recent documentaries, though, is at that point Lucas considered lightsabers to be quite heavy to hold and that they should always be held with two hands. So the duel in that movie should be considered from the point of view of much heavier weapons.
One interesting thing about ANH I learned when watching some recent documentaries, though, is at that point Lucas considered lightsabers to be quite heavy to hold and that they should always be held with two hands. So the duel in that movie should be considered from the point of view of much heavier weapons.
This. Two old men fighting the 'honourable' way (before PT ruined that of course), it's not about the sabers themselves but about the minds behind then.
Pretty much the perfect response. Great choreography doesn't make a lightsaber duel great. This scene, while slow and methodical, has 100x more depth and emotion than the ROTS fight.
I might be misremembering things but isnt Obi Wan trying to buy time for Luke & co.?
He knew Darth Vader would kill him easily, and Darth Vader knew he didnt have to actually fight him, but he was amused by having to fight his older master again. I think.
He knew Darth Vader would kill him easily, and Darth Vader knew he didnt have to actually fight him, but he was amused by having to fight his older master again. I think.
For the time, with a big guy in a cumbersome suite and a 63 year old man and a first time director it's fine. It was going for old serial style anyways so I give it a pass and even though it's a dull scene it gets the point across and doesn't drag on.
No, he just prioritizes flash and incompetent storytelling over drama and character.
From a lore standpoint Obi-Wan is just buying time for Luke & Co to do what they need to do. He doesn't need to do anything flashy in the fight, especially since he's already committed to transitioning to the Force. Vader's so transfixed on Obi-Wan that he completely doesn't sense the other strong force presence on the station. It plays right into Obi-Wan's hands. He bests Vader and teaches Luke an important lesson at the same time. Obi-Wan is 2-0 against Anakin.
From a realistic standpoint, its the very first lightsaber duel in a movie that was first written in 1973 and featured a 62 year old Alec Guinness, who was pretty vocal about how nonsense the films were to him. To even convince him to perform in that duel in the first place is a low key miracle.
From a realistic standpoint, its the very first lightsaber duel in a movie that was first written in 1973 and featured a 62 year old Alec Guinness, who was pretty vocal about how nonsense the films were to him. To even convince him to perform in that duel in the first place is a low key miracle.
This is very well shot from a cinematography point of view but the fight is not that much better if at all. Honest question are you watching this for the first time and in episode order? I can see how this could be jarring to a younger person with some film knowledge. My kids loved it even now.
I don't think we need to assume Vader is infirm or disabled in the OT. In Rogue One, we see Vader is still very much a capable fighter just a few days before.
No, you have to look at the fights in the OT in context. Obi Wan and Vader aren't looking to absolutely destroy each other. This is the first time they have been each other in decades. They are sparring with words and that's what makes the scene great.
Similarly, Vader's perceived lack of agility in ESB can be attributed to the fact that he doesn't want to kill Luke. He's toying with him and ultimately wants him to join him.
The RotJ duel is a lot more aggressive and not that far removed from his Rogue One scene. Gareth Edwards said he was careful to only show Vader doing things we'd either seen before in the OT or were at least somewhat grounded displays of power (lifting people with the Force).
No, you have to look at the fights in the OT in context. Obi Wan and Vader aren't looking to absolutely destroy each other. This is the first time they have been each other in decades. They are sparring with words and that's what makes the scene great.
Similarly, Vader's perceived lack of agility in ESB can be attributed to the fact that he doesn't want to kill Luke. He's toying with him and ultimately wants him to join him.
The RotJ duel is a lot more aggressive and not that far removed from his Rogue One scene. Gareth Edwards said he was careful to only show Vader doing things we'd either seen before in the OT or were at least somewhat grounded displays of power (lifting people with the Force).
I mean, the bottom line is its an old movie made in the 1970s on a shoestring budget, with an old actor, and another in a bulky cumbersome suit and no CGI assistance (just the saber glow effect, which isn't even good in the original cut where it regularly fades out at certain angles and you can see Alec Guiness is just holding a plastic rod or something.) And it was produced way before there was any inkling (other than maybe George Lucas's wildest dreams) that this would be a saga or even just a trilogy at that point, and that they could then make future movies with CGI, and chave the characters be magical ninja badasses while lightsaber dueling.
It is what it is.
It is what it is.
Yes, the fight is terribly slow and aged. Mostly because : 1977, new director, old actors.
Also : "emotion figthing" or some BS like that.
But really the real answer is : don't try to make sense of the events of Star Wars. Franchise is a mess full of plot holes and things that just aren't logical or thought.
I mean Rogue One introduced us to a planet wide invulnerable shield used to protect... I just can't finish this sentence or I'll be mad.
Also : "emotion figthing" or some BS like that.
But really the real answer is : don't try to make sense of the events of Star Wars. Franchise is a mess full of plot holes and things that just aren't logical or thought.
I mean Rogue One introduced us to a planet wide invulnerable shield used to protect... I just can't finish this sentence or I'll be mad.
it looks like a sword fight from a samurai movie, which is where the biggest inspiration of Star Wars comes from.
also, stop pretending this shit was all written together.
also, stop pretending this shit was all written together.
I'm not saying the scene is just 100% awful because of the bad choreography and fight skills on display, it obviously serves its purpose as a baseline, however, I think the fighting does ruin the tension. I'm all for theatrical drama when there's substance and I respect that aspect of this moment, but I just can't deny that my gut reaction right when I saw this the first time was just "Man, this is baaaad."
The modern fan and moviegoer: "Canon >>>>> anything else".
I think the scene is wonderful. It really captures how these two once powerful beings are meeting each other again after so many years,
What really makes it is when Obi Wan lets himself get struck down. Really powerful scene.
The fight in Episode III on the other hand.....yeah, it's fine if people like it, I just thought it was quite possibly one of the dumbest sequences in modern cinema.
From the incessant blade twirling to "FROM MY POINT OF THE JEDI ARE EVEL!" I will admit it's good for a laugh.
Again, nothing against people who like this scene, just how I feel.
What really makes it is when Obi Wan lets himself get struck down. Really powerful scene.
The fight in Episode III on the other hand.....yeah, it's fine if people like it, I just thought it was quite possibly one of the dumbest sequences in modern cinema.
From the incessant blade twirling to "FROM MY POINT OF THE JEDI ARE EVEL!" I will admit it's good for a laugh.
Again, nothing against people who like this scene, just how I feel.
I would argue if that's your takeaway, you're putting far too much stock into how much the actual fighting plays in the significance of the scene you're watching.
And like I said, if you actually read the OP, you'll see that the majority is criticizing the entire scene, the writing, the dialogue.. not the fighting. So your original point was largely irrelevant.
I think it's more of an issue of finding this movie underwhelming in retrospect, not really just because of the super choreographed fights in the prequels but even 5 and 6 vastly outdid this one in terms of tension and intensity when the characters are just fighting. I don't even like MCU movies where it's two CGI figures punching and flying into crushing walls of badness but in Star Wars I think the fights should be worthwhile watching just in themselves. It's the visual iconicness of the franchise, for christ's sakes.
I mean.. this fight is just old guys knocking sabers around for a handful of seconds in order to get to the meat and potatoes. I'm failing to see how it's "so baaaaad". It's a prelude into the more intense and significant saber battles to come. If ANH just isn't for you and it doesn't work as a film for you, that's one thing, but that encounter defines the entire film and the films to come.
Riiight, and the scene in Mordor in LOTR Return of the King is just a hobbit and a caveman fighting until one falls into the lava and dies but nevermind if that was shown 90% through dialogue instead of action. Let's just reduce all cinematic storytelling to stage-plays.