The odd state of HDR

dgrdsv · Oct 31, 2017

snubbers said:
Is it just me? I'm starting to think the more HDR range a display provides, the more fatigue your eyes will experience, or do you eventually get used to it?

Contrary to a popular misconception HDR has no direct tie with brightness. You can have HDR with just 500cd/m2 which will be miles better than what some 1000cd/m2 displays are showing because of higher contrast ratio and better color reproduction - cue OLED vs LCD for example. HDR is about range, not top figure of said range.

I feel that a HDR monitor with lower nits but better black levels could in fact be considerably more usable than that which shines with 1000+ cd/m2 straight into your face. However this means that we have to wait for OLED monitors since even VA LCD won't be able to reach HDR contrast ratios without extending the top brightness to what can be unpleasant levels.

Mahnmut · Oct 31, 2017

So what is the best way to set up the colors in Nvidia Control panel when hooked up to a TV ?

Zing · Oct 31, 2017

snubbers said:
Is it just me? I'm starting to think the more HDR range a display provides, the more fatigue your eyes will experience, or do you eventually get used to it?

I initially encountered this, but after adding more ambient light to my room, I don't notice any strain. I have two floor-standing lamps and have only been using one for years. Now I turn on both at night.

icespide said:
specifically for console gaming, dolby vision doesn't matter with now because the consoles only support HDR10

Current HDMI 2.0a compliant ports (those which support HDR10/BT2020) are software upgradable to support Dolby Vision and HLG. It is true that games would have to be made to best utilize the new features, which is why I wouldn't expect anything of note until the PS5.

DarkJak101 · Oct 31, 2017

My 4K Samsung from 2015 didn't have HDR. It broke down and I returned it and got a refund, using that money with some extra to get a KS8000. I honestly can't tell the difference between HDR and non-HDR games, they both look amazing on the TV. But with video clips, I can immediately tell whether HDR is implemented or not, and it's stunning! I'm really not sure whether it's my settings or anything, though

CloseTalker · Oct 31, 2017

HDR will get there. It's technology whose benefits are immediately noticeable, especially if you turn it on and off for someone seeing it for the first time, in a way that even 4K isn't. I've seen way more of my casual tech friend be wowed by the colors of HDR, whereas when I show them a pristine 4K image, they say they don't notice a difference.

HDR as a technology is already catching on in a way that 4K blurays didn't. There are growing pains for sure, but I think the future looks bright (heh) for HDR.

DJ Lushious · Oct 31, 2017

Dibs said:
The Lost Legacy and Horzion Zero Dawn really made me a believer in the HDR craze. They both looked phenomenal.

Sure, the brights are amazing in HDR, but so, too, are the darks. Horizon: Zero Dawn at night was thrilling. There was a moment I had, near the end, where the area was dark/overcast for reasons and I remember just stopping dead in my tracks to revel in all the detail I could make out in the dark and shadowed Aloy.

Horizon: Zero Dawn really is an HDR showcase in gaming.

datamage · Oct 31, 2017

IvanSlavkov said:
Sorry guys for the Witcher 3, installed the game recently and only played my save file from before for a little while. Maybe it is my eyes or the fact that for the first time I turned on the game on my new TV but it seemed with HDR.
As for CoD it does have HDR in both SP and MP.

You can quote by highlighting a section of the post then selecting +Quote. Then choose insert quote in your reply box.

As for CoD, I went ahead and reinstalled it + updated, and no HDR. If we're talking about Infinite Warfare here, it doesn't have HDR.

Couchdweller · Oct 31, 2017

The Last of Us Remastered had a really good HDR10 implementation. It runs on the original PS4.

Metfanant · Oct 31, 2017

this goes way beyond just the video games industry, and is really an issue with HDR being frankly pretty half baked...competing formats, with different specifications, and displays/TV's that support some things, but not all specs...manufacturers that release broken firmware updates that totally ruin calibrations, some sets with significantly increased input lag in HDR mode, and so on and so forth...

hopefully 2018 TV's...along with HDMI 2.1 (fingers crossed) with its higher bandwidth, can allow for some more standardization, or at least more TV's with the hardware necessary to properly support all aspects of HDR...the display of HDR and SDR content on the same display should be a seamless experience, and so far it is not...

thankfully up to this point my ancient 1080p Samsung LED DLP has not shown any signs of crapping out on me yet...because im forcing myself to wait out the minefield that is the current TV landscape...

ss_lemonade · Oct 31, 2017

Smokey said:
Microsoft's implementation of HDR on the desktop is terrible. Ignore how it looks on desktop and go to a HDR compatible game. It will look correct once you enable the settings in your game.

How does one actually know if a PC game supports HDR or not? Microsoft has it's own setting to enable, which I think is how you get some games to display in HDR (Microsoft store games?). But then you also have games like RE 7 which have an in-game HDR toggle. Also, some games like Gears 4 apparently don't have HDR support, eventhough the console version does? I also have a strange bug where 50% of the time, enabling HDR (whether in-game like RE 7, or in Windows) gives me a high constrast, highly sharp image. I need to re-toggle HDR multiple times until I get the image displaying correctly.

Heckler456 · Oct 31, 2017

Metfanant said:
this goes way beyond just the video games industry, and is really an issue with HDR being frankly pretty half baked...competing formats, with different specifications, and displays/TV's that support some things, but not all specs...manufacturers that release broken firmware updates that totally ruin calibrations, some sets with significantly increased input lag in HDR mode, and so on and so forth...

hopefully 2018 TV's...along with HDMI 2.1 (fingers crossed) with its higher bandwidth, can allow for some more standardization, or at least more TV's with the hardware necessary to properly support all aspects of HDR...the display of HDR and SDR content on the same display should be a seamless experience, and so far it is not...

thankfully up to this point my ancient 1080p Samsung LED DLP has not shown any signs of crapping out on me yet...because im forcing myself to wait out the minefield that is the current TV landscape...

I really hope all this sorts itself out soon, because I really don't want to play Red Dead Redemption on a 1080p 32 inch TV...

Smokey · Oct 31, 2017

georaldc said:
How does one actually know if a PC game supports HDR or not? Microsoft has it's own setting to enable, which I think is how you get some games to display in HDR (Microsoft store games?). But then you also have games like RE 7 which have an in-game HDR toggle. Also, some games like Gears 4 apparently don't have HDR support, eventhough the console version does? I also have a strange bug where 50% of the time, enabling HDR (whether in-game like RE 7, or in Windows) gives me a high constrast, highly sharp image. I need to re-toggle HDR multiple times until I get the image displaying correctly.

There's a PC gaming wiki that I use to keep track of PC HDR titles. Don't have link on me as I'm at work. Horizon 3 for example doesn't have HDR on PC, but does on Xbox. However the Xbox version can't run at 60fps, so there's some picking and choosing of what's of importance to you. I imagine this will get more in line at least with MS 1st party after XBX releases.

Tommyguns · Oct 31, 2017

datamage said:
You can quote by highlighting a section of the post then selecting +Quote. Then choose insert quote in your reply box.

As for CoD, I went ahead and reinstalled it + updated, and no HDR. If we're talking about Infinite Warfare here, it doesn't have HDR.

Not sure which version we are talking about but COD WW2 beta had HDR on the PS4 pro

osodemolay · Oct 31, 2017

When I played Uncharted the Lost Legacy and turned on/off the HDR setting, I could immediatly see the difference. But if I compare Uncharted (HDR on) with a game like The Witcher 3 (without HDR), I just can't see any difference. The same happens when I compare Netflix series with and without HDR

VanDoughnut · Oct 31, 2017

Yeah I'm in a weird place right now where a game without HDR kinda sours me.
I was thinking of getting Wolfenstein 2 for PS4 but when I found out about no HDR, kinda less enthused. Which is kind of a silly reason in a way.

I heard Wolfenstein 2 on Xbone will have HDR, so I'm confused. If HDR starts becoming an "exclusive" thing, that'll be insane.

At least Sony first parties seem to be bringing it as far as HDR goes. And they really benefit from it.
It's my favorite new tech right now.

And yes Stranger Things in HDR, is the truth like others have said lol

Pargon · Oct 31, 2017

snubbers said:
[...] Is it just me? I'm starting to think the more HDR range a display provides, the more fatigue your eyes will experience, or do you eventually get used to it?

Theoretically HDR should not be raising the average brightness by much, since it's still intended to be viewed in a dark room. I would not be surprised if that doesn't hold true for games though.
A lot of games are pushing for extreme contrast with HDR, rather than more natural images. That's going to be fatiguing.

A higher brightness display should, in some ways, be easier on the eyes. The brighter the display is, the fewer regions get clipped to solid white or aggressively tone-mapped.
This image is supposed to represent 'normalized' SDR and HDR images, but the difference between low-brightness HDR displays and high-brightness HDR displays is very similar:

Having detail in the brighter region of the images rather than being clipped to white makes it more comfortable to look at - even though it is brighter. (or would be on an actual HDR display)

Metfanant said:
hopefully 2018 TV's...along with HDMI 2.1 (fingers crossed) with its higher bandwidth, can allow for some more standardization, or at least more TV's with the hardware necessary to properly support all aspects of HDR...the display of HDR and SDR content on the same display should be a seamless experience, and so far it is not...

The big deal with HDMI 2.1 for HDR is not higher bandwidth, but support for dynamic metadata. HDR10 on an HDMI 2.0 display is an incomplete spec.
The extra bandwidth is great for higher chroma resolution in HDR, higher refresh rates, and HDMI 2.1 also adds support for variable refresh rates which is the most important display-related change in gaming since HD.

Smokey said:
There's a PC gaming wiki that I use to keep track of PC HDR titles. Don't have link on me as I'm at work. Horizon 3 for example doesn't have HDR on PC, but does on Xbox. However the Xbox version can't run at 60fps, so there's some picking and choosing of what's of importance to you. I imagine this will get more in line at least with MS 1st party after XBX releases.

List of PC games with HDR support.
And yes, it's very frustrating when one platform supports HDR but the other does not. Deus Ex: Mankind Divided supports HDR on console but not PC too, while Shadow Warrior 2 supports HDR on PC but not console. Some games support Dolby Vision on PC but only HDR10 in the console version.

Smokey · Oct 31, 2017

Going to keep going referring to https://ventspace.wordpress.com/2017/10/20/games-look-bad-part-1-hdr-and-tone-mapping/

Explains in good detail the situation we're in and explains tone mapping.

AegonSnake · Oct 31, 2017

Stranger Things 2 did nothing for me. I had no idea it had HDR. Mind you I thought the Life of Pi and Gods and Egypt HDR showcases on the HDR channel looked mindblowing. I expect everything to look that good.

Anyway, sent this in a PM, but wanted to share my settings here.

KS8000
I use Game Mode for all games.
I have the Backkight Set to 20 (have to manually increase it from 10 i use for SDR games without HDR support)
I have Color Space Set to Auto. Used to Have it at Native but they patched it.
Have Dynamic Contrast at High
Have the PS4 RGB Setting set to Full
Have the TV RGB Setting Set to Normal (I flipped this to Limited and Low and didnt make a difference)

I cant remember what my contrast and sharpness is set to, but i dont mess with them at all.

When I turn the HDR On and Off (be it from the ingame menus or from the TV's HDR HDMI On/Off Feature) I cant tell the difference in games like Uncharted 4, Lost Legacy and especially Ratchet. I did several tests with Ratchet and it actually looked worse. Same with infamous. Both games just look dull with HDR on. Now mind you, I dont manually go and change the BackLight down to 10 after disabling HDR. I leave it at 20 when i flip it on and off to see the difference. Uncharted Lost Legacy looks more natural i guess.

Games like Horizon, FFXV, TLG, Mass Effect I can tell the difference. It's slightly more vibrant. The greens are greener in FFXV. The lighting is more natural and less bloom heavy in The Last Guardian and Mass Effect is just more vibrant. Horizon looks great but turning it on and off is a minimal upgrade. Again, Backlight is 20 when i am turning it on and off because i think turning HDR on and off should be a big difference regardless. If just turning backlight to max is enough, whats the point?

Smokey · Oct 31, 2017

It's been touched on before, but people have been gaming at (most likely) incorrect SDR settings for years. For games especially, you are probably conditioned to a brighter, punchier image as "correct". HDR doesn't necessarily mean things get brighter or punchier, although it can depending on the title, but it allows for a more accurate display of color.

I hooked up my PC to my OLED and tried the Forza 7 demo. I went back and forth with HDR. Non HDR looked punchier, however , HDR enabled made the game look more realistic. And to me, overall, it looked better.

The perception is that HDR = automatically equals more brightness and punchier color is one that causes a lot of the disappointment when users experience it. The point of it is to give you more accurate color among other things.

Monty Mole · Oct 31, 2017

My favourite implementation of HDR is still Infamous First Light. The city really comes alive in HDR with all those neon lights. I don't like the game at all though unfortunately, just running around looking at how lovely it looks :)

AegonSnake · Oct 31, 2017

Smokey said:
It's been touched on before, but people have been gaming at (most likely) incorrect SDR settings for years. For games especially, you are probably conditioned to a brighter, punchier image as "correct". HDR doesn't necessarily mean things get brighter or punchier, although it can depending on the title, but it allows for a more accurate display of color.

I hooked up my PC to my OLED and tried the Forza 7 demo. I went back and forth with HDR. Non HDR looked punchier, however , HDR enabled made the game look more realistic. And to me, overall, it looked better.

The perception is that HDR = automatically equals more brightness and punchier color is one that causes a lot of the disappointment when users experience it. The point of it is to give you more accurate color among other things.

Right. But this is frustrating for people like me who spent $1,000 or more on a TV that gives the same quality image as a non HDR tv that I have calibrated to display the brighter and more vivid image. I mostly bought the KS8000 because everyone on gaf kept raving about how life changing the HDR is. Not because people kept saying 'it looks correct' and more natural. The DF guys would go on and on about HDR and I'm like is this it?

I could've spent the $1k on a gaming PC and run everything at 60 fps instead. $1k for a slightly more realistic image isnt really that great.

Kage Maru · Oct 31, 2017

I'm a huge fan of HDR, especially when it's implemented right. Games like HZD, Resogun, Wipeout, GTS, and BF1 are great examples of HDR done right. The PC situation needs to be sorted out though. One of the reasons I'm getting a 1X is due to the HDR issues on PC. Looking forward to trying out Forza Horizon, Gears 4, etc.

Allseeingeye · Oct 31, 2017

All I know is GT Sport is goldly in HDR. So Is Horizon.

Pargon · Oct 31, 2017

AegonSnake said:
Right. But this is frustrating for people like me who spent $1,000 or more on a TV that gives the same quality image as a non HDR tv that I have calibrated to display the brighter and more vivid image. I mostly bought the KS8000 because everyone on gaf kept raving about how life changing the HDR is. Not because people kept saying 'it looks correct' and more natural. The DF guys would go on and on about HDR and I'm like is this it?

I could've spent the $1k on a gaming PC and run everything at 60 fps instead. $1k for a slightly more realistic image isnt really that great.

I mean, I would never just blindly buy a TV and then keep it if I'm not satisfied with the picture. I feel like that's on you.
At the same time, if your TV is enhancing SDR in a way that makes it difficult for you to tell it apart from HDR - and the KS8000 is meant to have good HDR support - isn't that a good thing?

Smokey · Oct 31, 2017

AegonSnake said:
Right. But this is frustrating for people like me who spent $1,000 or more on a TV that gives the same quality image as a non HDR tv that I have calibrated to display the brighter and more vivid image. I mostly bought the KS8000 because everyone on gaf kept raving about how life changing the HDR is. Not because people kept saying 'it looks correct' and more natural. The DF guys would go on and on about HDR and I'm like is this it?

I could've spent the $1k on a gaming PC and run everything at 60 fps instead. $1k for a slightly more realistic image isnt really that great.

Yamauchi went over details of what the PS4 Pro version of Gran Turismo Sport will bring, with 4K (with a 1800p checkerboard resolution), HDR and wide colour support. The new version will support current HDR TV devices as well as future models, and is capable of reaching a brightness of up to 10,000 nits

In more straight-up terms, this will be the first Gran Turismo that will be able to accurately mimic the distinctive red found on Ferraris. If you've ever been to an F1 race you might have noticed the slightly strange orange glow to the older Ferraris, a trick used so that when shown on standard TVs they look more like the red traditionally associated with the marque.

Gran Turismo Sport on PS4 Pro employs BT2020 colour space, which allows it to reflect a wider range of colours. "Ferrari's red was a colour that was outside the colour space up until now," said Yamauchi. "With Gran Turismo Sport on Pro, the red of the Ferrari is accurately represented. All the McLaren cars, the colour is outside of the colour space that's been represented in the past."

Yamauchi sums up the advantage that HDR provides. It enhances the overall accuracy of the picture. Finding that "worth" it or not is up to the individual.

MAX PAYMENT · Oct 31, 2017

What are the proper per HDR settings?

Smokey · Oct 31, 2017

MAX PAYMENT said:
What are the proper per HDR settings?

Depends on the TV.

AdropOFvenom · Oct 31, 2017

My average non-techie gamer response to an HDR question would be "What's that?". They can vaguely tell you what 4K is even if they don't necessarily see the need to run out and replace their TV. But HDR? No chance.

As long as that's the case, I'm sure you'll see developers treating it as catering to a small minority.

ditta · Oct 31, 2017

Smokey said:
Depends on the TV.

For example KS7000 in the UK or KS8000. I'm having trouble with enabling HDR in Windows. I think I've got the right settings for the Pro, but a recommendation would be good.

MAX PAYMENT · Oct 31, 2017

Smokey said:
Depends on the TV.

Tcl p607

radian8 · Oct 31, 2017

One of the biggest problems with HDR is TV's even in 2017 that are being pushed as HDR TV's when they just like the good ol' "HD Ready" TV's years ago. They can't do it correct and only accept that signal and don't offer any of the real benefits.
Once you've watched an HDR Movie or played an HDR Game on a proper solid bright HDR TV (Z9D or X930e) the difference is night and day, it's a far bigger leap for the average consumer than 4K is, it's that much of a difference.

Smokey · Oct 31, 2017

ditta said:
For example KS7000 in the UK or KS8000. I'm having trouble with enabling HDR in Windows. I think I've got the right settings for the Pro, but a recommendation would be good.

I have OLED, but for me I had to enable Ultra Deep Color (HDR) on the HDMI port that the PC was hooked to. Then the Enable HDR switch appeared in Windows under Display Settings. It looks like shit when you enable it on the Windows desktop, but ignore that and go to the HDR game you're trying to play, and enable it there as well.You probably need to do the respective HDR enabling on your port that I did.

It was all straight forward for me. I'm on latest NVIDIA drivers and Windows ver 1703.

Smokey · Oct 31, 2017

kaf · Oct 31, 2017

HDR will gain more traction in the future, but gradually. The biggest issue is (was) generating content for HDR screens when most computer monitors simply did not support that color range (rec 2020) so it can be hard to go back and forth and correctly author content that makes the best use (but is easier to convert from rec709 progmatically with some results). I believe the the first batch of monitors that support HDR have come out in the past few months, but they are fairly pricey (around the $700 to $1400 mark)

ItIsOkBro · Oct 31, 2017

Smokey said:
Going to keep going referring to https://ventspace.wordpress.com/2017/10/20/games-look-bad-part-1-hdr-and-tone-mapping/

Explains in good detail the situation we're in and explains tone mapping.

Basically, what I got from this is (pre-HDR televisions) films tried their best to maintain a natural image in the SDR output on our screens. Whereas games have opted to be punchy and contrasty (which is visually appealing, IMO, so the author and I disagree there). But now that HDR TVs are in fact a thing, games are in a but it of an odd position because they'd be extending the range of something where the base is unnatural.

I guess it's up to the individual whether or not this is a problem. Me personally, I think people should be free to do with the extended range of brightness and colour what they please. FFXV's HDR mode is quite liberal. It raises the brightness across the board. Like, no part of this game looks the same in SDR. Some would say that the HDR implementation is simply wrong. I think it looked amazing though.

spydersvenom · Nov 1, 2017

scrapple said:
Where can I get the latest and greatest settings for PS4 for my KS8000? Seems to work good on the Xbox One S (Forza Horizon 3) but I know their are settings in the PS4 menu somewhere that I should enable...

rtings.com (specifically for the KS8000: http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/ks8000) This site by far explains the best way to understand HDR and how to set up your television, but its important to note that nothing is absolute. Individual sets vary. I know many don't like to spend the $100-$200 to have it professionally calibrated, but you've already spent $1500-$2000 on the TV, wouldn't you want it to look its best? As this thread clearly demonstrates, knowledge of HDR isn't universal and people keep disagreeing and potentially misinforming others.

spydersvenom · Nov 1, 2017

As for the big discussion, it's been my experience that HDR is being more commonly introduced in consoles over PC. This makes sense because presumably console users are hooked up to a TV and HDR is relatively easy to implement (it's a metadata file tagged onto the video signal). On PC you have a much wider array of displays, hardware, and hookups whereas with a PS4 Pro/XB1X you always have an HDMI 2.0 cable on consistent hardware. I also feel that the PC world is split on HDR, even before Windows and Nvidia screwed it up, and no one seems to agree on what's most important to implement (4K, 2K, HRD, 21:9, etc). I have a gaming PC with a 1070, but I got tired of hoping for HDR updates to Battlefield 1, Rise of the Tomb Raider, and even games I have HDR on for XB1 like Gears 4. I personally feel HDR makes a difference - moreso than 4K - and I want that experience. It's not on PC and I'm tired of waiting. Many of the latest releases on PS4 Pro and XB1/XB1X have HDR and I'm just fine getting them there (and rather effortlessly). The only two HDR games on PC that "just worked" were Resident Evil 7 and Shadow Warrior 2. It's even on the horizon for the future as well. Rise of the Tomb Raider is currently only planned to have HDR on XB1X (I have that version, but I sure hope it eventually comes to PS4 Pro at least, if not PC as well) and PUBG is getting HDR day one on XB1X and not PC. It's more expensive, but the current state of HDR is only strong on the upgraded consoles with the most modern releases.

impingu1984 · Nov 1, 2017

As I've got pretty heavy colour blindness I'm unsure if HDR will really be that noticeable for me. Coupled with all inconsistences of support etc (particularly on PC) I've not really bothered to check it out.

I doubt anyone could even offer me an idea as to whether it's worth for me.....

I do need a new TV (not for Gaming however) soon so maybe I'm see what it's all about then...

ss_lemonade · Nov 1, 2017

For those with a standard PS4, make sure it's set to full RGB and your TV is set to that as well when dealing with HDR content. Not sure about the PS4 Pro

borghe · Nov 1, 2017

I think the big problem with HDR, is most people don't entirely understand what it is, and publishers/manufacturers don't know how to sell it on words. Further, not every implementation is "omfg". Like Stranger Things S2 makes GREAT use of HDR, but it won't blow your socks off.. it "merely" looks really really good. Wonder Woman is another great example.

So how manufacturers have chosen to advertise HDR is with ridiculously saturated 60fps video (which looks incredible) but then people are confused when their new HDR content on their new sets looks nothing like those demos (self admitted here, 100%)

Not sure what the answer is.. I mean 4K HDR is a pretty big improvement. Bigger than just 4K, and even bigger THAN 4K IMHO.. but 80% of the use cases aren't going to look like those 60fps HDR google videos that are used to demo the sets, with people left wondering if their sets are broken, or if the content is even doing it correctly.

Smokey · Nov 3, 2017

So DF put out a Gears 4 4K HDR XBX Enhanced Video

It actually contains a split screen HDR On/Off mode (starts at 2:03) that you can play with in game, so you can see the difference of HDR on and off in realtime, at the same time. I'm a Patreon member and downloaded the video and am watching it in 4k HDR on my TV. The difference is massive on an actual HDR display. Watching the same video on youtube, the difference is still there in that section of the video, but it's no where near as apparent when you're actually watching it on a HDR screen. Youtube is tone mapping the HDR image back to a standard SDR image to be played on normal computer screens.

Hope more games come with this, but I doubt it.

The odd state of HDR

Enhanced Xperience

Alt Account

Banned for having an alt account

Technical Artist

Happy New Year!!