The Open World Philosophy of Red Dead Redemption 2 - New Info

[Rathorial]

Well quite a few of those points sound good, but I'll wait to see what happens as Rockstar's approach to open world design has never worked well for me. Part of it is that I've never been that impressed with a lot of their mechanics or controls (though horses in Red Dead 1 were nice), but mostly I just don't like how increasingly scripted their games have become over time with regards to single-player.

- Rockstar's philosophy is that players in their open worlds are increasingly likely to lose themselves, distracted from their real tasks, but not torn from the gaming experience. Barrier-free games, you could say.

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Well I hope they live up to the barrier-free stuff, because too often in GTAV if I deviate not that far from a missions critical path, they'll fail state me. I'd like more of their free-form approach in their multiplayer to come to single-player story missions.

 

[ResetEraIsTheBestEra]

Cant wait for the cool funny glitches in this game.

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Holy shit lmao!

 

[Simo]

Well I hope they live up to the barrier-free stuff, because too often in GTAV if I deviate not that far from a missions critical path, they'll fail state me. I'd like more of their free-form approach in their multiplayer to come to single-player story missions.

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At the press preview they had an example where if they failed the bank heist it didn't end with a mission failed screen or anything, just that everyone goes back to camp empty handed and disgruntled. lol You can try again perhaps later but the whole town will be alerted and on the lookout for strangers.

The same heist had multiple approaches too.

 

[Fawz]

Some really cool concepts are discussed in that interview but until we see it concretely represented in-game, even if it's a promotional trailer, it remains a target goal wishlist.

Still they at least mention a lot of the things I wanted from a sequel to RDR and even some things I didn't dare hope for. I'm mostly interested to slowly traverse the world at my own pace with my horse to explore the wilderness, and it sounds like that type of immersive atmosphere is one of their main goals.

 

[foolishoptimist]

- Since having an Open World is nothing special today and size doesn't make a game great (No Man's Sky), Rockstar Games set out to make their Open World different from any other. With Red Dead Redemption 2 they want to create the deepest, most detailed, believable and interactive Open World they have ever built. Everybody and everything needs to be believable, from the Barkeeper of the local saloon, to the pebble that descends a slope or tiny frogs hopping around. Small details, big difference.

- Rockstar's philosophy is that players in their open worlds are increasingly likely to lose themselves, distracted from their real tasks, but not torn from the gaming experience. Barrier-free games, you could say.

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Wow. Rockstar are great at building worlds, but I seriously think Rockstar are terrible at making games.

And one of the biggest sins they repeat is putting up barriers in their worlds?

An Example.
RDR starts with 10 hunting challenges. I enjoyed these more than any story mission.
But you can only complete these sequentially...
#6 requires the last of 3 areas to be unlocked. So after #5 - the next hunting challenge will sit there - unacheiveable, all through the Mexico sequence - even though later hunting challenges could be achieved in Mexico.
It's just freakin annoying little things where Rockstar get in the way of me enjoying their open-worlds.

I'm gonna wait for confirmation that the map is in fact barrier free before getting this one.

 

[Rathorial]

At the press preview they had an example where if they failed the bank heist it didn't end with a mission failed screen or anything, just that everyone goes back to camp empty handed and disgruntled. lol You can try again perhaps later but the whole town will be alerted and on the lookout for strangers.

The same heist had multiple approaches too.

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Well that's good to hear.

 

[Aters]

All sound like "immersion" over fun. It's videogame, go past the Turing test if you want to talk about believebility.

 

[Dr Doom]

Witcher 3 game I played years ago
Vs
RDR2 game I haven't seen gameplay and use my imagination to paint it.

I'll keep my hype check

 

[GamerDude]

I'm sure the game will turn out awesome, but it doesn't have very flashy or exciting features. Everything has been pretty 'meh' so far.

 

[BarryFishFinger]

I remember the random events from Red Dead, there was like 3 of them and they happened all the damn time. I recall overturned wagon with distressed woman which was always a bandit attack and cougar attack. There was another I think. Either way, they happened all the time and got really repetitive so aside from any wrongness my brain might be remembering, hopefully this next contextual random event system they have in place is a little more robust.

 

[DeeDogg]

That is a whole lot of describing something that is out in two months which you won't show a single damned slice of gameplay for.

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exactly. I mean I appreciate the new tidbits but SHOW THE GAME. Unless they have something to hide why not show the game?

 

[SupremeWu]

Witcher 3 game I played years ago
Vs
RDR2 game I haven't seen gameplay and use my imagination to paint it.

I'll keep my hype check

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Witcher 3 seems an unfair measuring stick, this early. If it's better than it's predecessor then that's an accomplishment.

 

[brainchild]

Always the same song and dance with these devs/pubs pre-release. I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Francois Dillinger]

We must be close to press time. They put the posters up!

 

[Linus815]

These things all sound fantastic, though most of them have already been talked about in some of the previews.
I disagree about other games already having done it -- maybe elements, but not altogether. Witcher 3 is one of my favorite games of this gen, and I absolutely adore its world, but it's incredibly static. RDR2 is aiming to have a world dynamically changing, both on its own, and in reaction to the player.

 

[Heckler456]

Sounds great. Hype's definitely building.

That is not true. Watch Dogs 2 has 10x better NPCs with a lot more realistic dialog. Horizon has much better combat versus machines. While I agree GTA5 is large and detailed, saying no one comes close is ridiculous.

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Yeah, let's start comparing games made for last gen to mid current gen releases.

All sound like "immersion" over fun. It's videogame, go past the Turing test if you want to talk about believebility.

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Did you like, not read the OP or something. Literal quote:

The world is as realistic as possible, as long as it is still fun

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[eso76]

All of this was known already after the press showing they held a few months ago though.
There were many previews describing how most of those systems were In place during the demonstration.

 

[Kaeden]

Right out of the gate, throwing that shade at NMS, lol! I'm actually enjoying that game a lot right now.

Anyhow, I'm getting the impression there's gonna be a lot of scripted stuff for just about anything you interact with versus just letting you go do whatever or whenever. I might be reading more into that but that's my take from it. Saying that random stuff that doesn't fit the context, won't happen, is what I'm referring to here. I just hope that doesn't limit freedom and choices and keep me from stepping off the beaten path.

All in all though, I hope it turns out like they're implying because it really does sound like they've thought a lot about making it truly great.

 

[lorddarkflare]

Sounds great. Hype's definitely building.


Yeah, let's start comparing games made for last gen to mid current gen releases.


Did you like, not read the OP or something. Literal quote:

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I think it is fair to compare within reason.

 

[Simo]

All sound like "immersion" over fun.

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Quite the opposite actually. Sure, they're trying to create what they feel is their deepest and most interactive world to date that they hope players will lose themselves in but at the end of the day all these systems have to come together and fundamentally be "fun" to play.

It's what Rockstar stress the most in the interview and they did push things more the realistic side before realizing they weren't fun and scaled back. Like being able to grab individual plant pettles for crafting or having the weapons be hyper realistic to the point you would have to individually reload each bullet cartridge, which the team thought would be a great idea but again it wasn't actually fun in practice so it was ditched.

There's more details in the link in the OP but this one touched on the gunplay for those curious:
"We fundamentally revised the shootings. We hope to deliver the best Gunplay so far. The feeling, the speed and the connection with the weapons is just something completely different. Looking back, Dead Eye was good but not perfect. We just had to revise it. We wanted to keep the basic idea of slowing down the time and marking the goals. It should feel familiar in the head, but be much more comfortable to control. The variance in weapons is very important to us. Single-action weapons and double-action revolvers, repeaters and regular rifles. Features such as cock and shoot, reload, recharge time, range, accuracy. Combat action, and normal movement in the world, are two fundamentally different modes, hopefully not perceived but felt."

 

[Heckler456]

I think it is fair to compare within reason.

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I really don't think it's fair at all, especially when comparing NPC variety, considering the fact that they had 256mb of system ram to work with.

 

[Disco]

sounds like my dream game with an emphasis on immersion in the Western genre in a way I wanted the first to delve more into. so fucking hyped.

next to Witcher 3, Rockstar has the most interesting and dense open world in GTA V. Can't wait for them to apply their continuously developing skills to RDR 2

 

[DeeDogg]

All sound like "immersion" over fun. It's videogame, go past the Turing test if you want to talk about believebility.

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I dont think you read the first post. They repeatedly say that they want to find a balance

 

[Lappe]

I don't understand how people can be skeptical about this game, this is Rockstar we are talking about.

Also, I will never understand the outcry to see gameplay etc. They will show it when the time is right for marketing. Again this is Rockstar, I have 100% faith that they will knock it out of the park like the Bosses they are.

 

[More_Badass]

All sound like "immersion" over fun. It's videogame, go past the Turing test if you want to talk about believebility.

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Reactions like this are insane when everything mentioned in that OP is all building on stuff that already exists or has been established in open world/open world RPG/immersive sim genres.

What it really is, is the continuing dissemination of immersive sim elements (i.e. interactivity and reactivity, logical reactions to your actions, NPCs behaviors, system-heavy design, etc) into other genres. Compared to GTA - which draws more from the pop culture perspective of different eras and crime thrillers (Heat, Miami Vice, Boyz In The Hood, Scarface, etc) - Red Dead Redemption was rooted in a very specific fantasy of being in the world of a fully realized Western. This is just realizing that fantasy more fully

 

[MosquitoSmasher]

We'll see exactly how realistic NPCs and their behavior will be. I remain incredibly impressed with Watch_Dogs 2 in terms of that. And I'd love to see Rockstar top that.

 

[Vex]

Sounds so good, I'm still a little worried about a delay though.

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Why do I feel a delay coming?

 

[Linus815]

Why do I feel a delay coming?

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There won't be. There's even freshly put up billboards with the release date. They are also sending out rdr2 merch to community influencers.
Its coming this october for sure.

 

[Heckler456]

Why do I feel a delay coming?

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No clue, because there is literally no reason to feel this way. Billboards are going up, the game has already been delayed by a year, and they've come out and said that the October date is set in stone.

 

[potentialtodisplease]

Sounds great. Hype's definitely building.


Yeah, let's start comparing games made for last gen to mid current gen releases.


Did you like, not read the OP or something. Literal quote:

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That has nothing to do with anything. The idea there was that nothing comes close to GTA5 period. That is not true.

 

[Heckler456]

That has nothing to do with anything. The idea there was that nothing comes close to GTA5 period. That is not true.

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Well, if you wanna go that route, unless the measure of "nothing coming close to GTA5" is how good the NPCs are, then there is definitely nothing close to GTA5 when considering its online component along with everything else. Literally nothing comes close when we compare completed products as a whole.

And my point is that where other developers do manage to come close is where the hardware limitation largely lie at the cause.

 

[*Splinter]

Ok this is the first bit of info to make me genuinely excited for this game. Rockstar are leaders in open world design so I love hearing about where they think they can push the envelope next.

I know people are asking to see it but this isn't the kind of stuff you can really demonstrate in a single video. These are some of the details that give the "feel" of the game, and that builds up over time.

 

[Hydeus]

Can we "see" something?

 

[Hydeus]

Dp.

 

[Deleted member 42221]

- Instead of slaughtering degraded animals to polygon objects without hesitation in order to be able to craft a larger wallet, the creatures in Rockstar's western game are living beings with - simulated - feelings. This should always be aware of the players when they press the trigger or let the arrow zoom. To kill animals quickly without much suffering you need to take your time to learn the right techniques

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Not going to lie, I might avoid killing any animals. The last guardian was enough animal suffering for one generation for me.

 

[potentialtodisplease]

Well, if you wanna go that route, unless the measure of "nothing coming close to GTA5" is how good the NPCs are, then there is definitely nothing close to GTA5 when considering its online component along with everything else. Literally nothing comes close when we compare completed products as a whole.

And my point is that where other developers do manage to come close is where the hardware limitation largely lie at the cause.

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Yeah, we'll see where RDR2 goes. Expectations are pretty high for them to be the best out there. They certainly have the pedigree in most places, but that doesn't mean it's going to leapfrog anything either.

 

[Dussck]

I've read most of this information before, but I really like their focus on a more detailed world instead of just making it bigger and more of the same. Everyone wonders when AI would advance to the next generation as much as graphics do and it seems that Rockstar is aiming to do just that.

 

[BouncyFrag]

I remember the random events from Red Dead, there was like 3 of them and they happened all the damn time. I recall overturned wagon with distressed woman which was always a bandit attack and cougar attack. There was another I think. Either way, they happened all the time and got really repetitive so aside from any wrongness my brain might be remembering, hopefully this next contextual random event system they have in place is a little more robust.

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There was another one when you needed to save some guy about to be hanged. I was never able to pull it off tho, lol.

 

[AgainstTheCurrent]

Nobody can touch Rockstart when it comes to building a world. Literally nobody is in the same league.

I can't wait.

 

[Sento]

- There will be no "checklists-type of missions" like in Ubisoft games or Mass Efffect Andromeda. R* doesn't think in categories like 'content' and 'prefabricated content', they want to blur the lines between everything the player does in order to increase immersion. R* doesn't necessarily want you to know when you are doing a main or a side mission or when you are interacting with a main character or just an NPC, but they will inform you in a very subtle way about it.

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This is why I love R*. Really tired of Ubisoft's "Systemic Open-Worlds"

 

[OléGunner]

We have already had all this info since May previews earlier in 2018.
But it all does sound fantastic and the true next gen leap in open world design and technology we've been waiting for.

I think only Rockstar and CDPR have the capabilities to do that in this day and age.

Can we "see" something?

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Same here. I'm dying for footage. Hopefully by the end of this month.
By then if we aint seen shit I might as well go in blind on release day lol

 

[Box]

I love following NPCs around :)

 

[~Fake]

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Want too.

 

[Deleted member 4021]

The ideas they talk about sound nice, but they're also things that open world creators have claimed to do for years and often turn out to be bullshit, i.e. "Radiant A.I." Hopefully they can actually accomplish these things in a fun and interesting way.

 

[Deleted member 19924]

I don't doubt these previews much at all tbh, Rockstar has this obsessive attention to detail that a small number of developers have. I just hope they've upped Euphoria usage, that physics engine has a lot to do with the dynamism of Rockstar's worlds.

 

[leng jai]

The number one thing they need to retain from the first game is how incredibly unique every weapon felt and sounded. To this day I've never played anything that has guns that felt and sounded as satisfying as RDR, even if the actual aiming wasn't the smoothest.

 

[Zephy]

This all sounds very interesting, I hope it turns out well, and if it does, that it influences future open world games.

 

[Dan Thunder]

Sounds like it could be great but some of the prose, albeit translated from German, sounds very florid so I'll wait and see. However, I have great faith in R* as after 5 years GTA V's world is more 'alive' than pretty much any other game out there.

 

[Hooks]

GTA V raised the bar last gen and I'm pretty confident Rockstar are capable of raising the bar once more, they don't just pump out trash and after the success of GTA V I'm sure they're aiming to out do themselves. It's interesting reading all the posts and threads lately of people downplaying Rockstars achievements with GTA V. Sure there's games out now that have caught up but so they should be

 

[Black Mantis]

Nice. This is the kind of progression I wanted to see from Rockstar this gen, I'll be on this day one.