The penultimate episode of Game of Thrones is the lowest rated episode in series history (critic reviews)

AnotherNils

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,443
Notice how those are all things that happen TO Dany, rather than Dany's character choosing to make more and more extreme decisions as things progress.

"Bad things happen to this person" isn't character development
This. If she's cracking we should be seeing those cracks. How D&D chose to portray that was her not eating or sleeping and looking like hell. For most people that's not enough to be a convincing portrayal of someone on the brink of genocidal madness.

Tyrion should be long dead. Think about how many Hands Aerys went through at the end of his reign. Daenarys constantly shitting on his advice but doing nothing about it was hollow. It's a shocking series full of grave consequences. Fucking kill the Hand you think has constantly failed you.
 

Duxxy3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,000
USA
On its own the episode isn't bad. It's because they rushed to get here. If GRRM had finished all of the books before the series started I think the what we know as season 6, 7 and 8 would have been 6, 7, 8 ,9 and 10.

There would have been more build up and more explanation. I think the end is the same, but D&D rushed to finish the series and this is the result.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,231
Portland, OR
Actually no, because both of those led somewhere. Ned's and Robb's death are both major moments in the show that set many things into motion. Those only led to nothing ultimately if you follow the echoes their deaths left because those end up at these final episodes where all build-up to things is just thrown in the wind. Also, it's not true that their deaths came out of nowhere, both were actually pretty well telegraphed beforehand, you just have to look a bit harder for the hints, but they're there.

The problem isn't that it ends in a way "we don't want". I don't give a shit about what I want, the problem is that it completely undermines years of character development and is seemingly just done because Benioff and Weiss think unexpected equals good for some reason.

- Did I expect Jaime's entire character arc to have been pointless because in the penultimate episode he reverts back to his season 1 persona?
- Did I expect that he's apparently been lying this entire time about why he killed Aerys because "he never really cared about the civilians of King's Landing?"
- Did I expect that Bran's storyline would climax with him sitting at a tree during the big White Walker confrontation doing fuck all?
- Did I expect that there seems to be no real reason why Jon Snow was brought back by the Lord of Light?
- Did I expect Arya to kill the Night King despite not even knowing about him until two episodes before it happens?
- Did I expect that the reason that Beric was able to come back so many times was to save Arya in a hallway?
- Did I expect the White Walkers, this Eldritch horror that has previously shrouded the entire world in darkness for hundreds of years, to be killed off in just over an hour of television time by a single knife stab?
- Did I expect Euron Greyjoy to kill a dragon out of nowhere?
- Did I expect them to last-minute try to make a tragic character out of Cersei?

No, of course I didn't expect any of that, because that is all fucking stupid.
I disagree about Jaime; I understand his impetus, his inability to ever actually quit Cersei. But the rest of those are all indeed wildly stupid. Like I said, once they no longer had the books to draw on, just some faint road map of major beats and they had to connect the dots themselves, everything took an absolute dive.
 

The_hypocrite

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,467
Flyover State
The worst thing is that the directing on the episode is fantastic, the battle for Kings Landing is incredibly well done, the writing is just extremely poor and they mistreat so many of the great characters the show has.

Dany going mad is honestly one of the better things they accomplish, they absolutely build that up in a believable way, but Jamie dying while trying to rescue Cersei felt the exact opposite way and up till two episodes ago he was still a character who put his honor before family.

The problem is not the outcome, it’s the journey there and making the actions of the characters feel believable after spending so much time with them, and Jamie’s journey certainly didn’t feel believable from the moment he left Brienne sobbing in Winterfell.

Whatever the ending is next week will almost assumably be bad and Jon Snow will probably end up being the unwilling king of a kingdom he never wanted, the question is just how many weird curveballs they decide to throw at us before the end of the episode.
Jamie putting honor over family? Like when he threw a child to his death to protect the family secret?
None of that explains why she would start massacre innocents after already winning. It makes no sense why she would ignore Cersei and focus on innocents. The massive backlash shows the writing didn’t work. Nobody is buying she would do this
Most people are always a certain amount of shit going awful from giving into the dark, all those things push her into a rather difficult position. Having her make a display of her power and ruthlessness in order to empower her position that had constantly being undermined isn't character assassination. It follows the arc of the character.
 
Nov 14, 2017
951
Really enjoyed it personally. The big twist was telegraphed from a mile away, so I'm shocked that others are shocked. For the complaints about characters "teleporting" from one side of the map to other -- do we really need to see what happened to them along the way? Is that minutia really germane to the plot as a whole?
It's not the detail of travel that people care about, it's about the way constraints facing the characters shape their actions and how it contributes to pacing. Remember how a major plot point from Seasons 1-3 emerged from the need to cross a bridge?

For all the spectacle the show was able to deliver in the later seasons, it feels smaller than it ever did during the early episodes.
 

The_hypocrite

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,467
Flyover State
Says man wasting time on videogame forums.
I'm accepting my futility quite well, GOT and SW fans should learn to do the same and spare us the outrage about shit that doesn't matter at all. This is supposed to be entertaining, if you aren't, if you are upset enough Just. Stop. Watching. That's a rather simple thing to solve. I doubt the ending that has been filmed is getting changed cause people are raging on the internet.
 

AimLow

Member
Dec 10, 2017
475
If it were telegraphed from a mile away, people wouldn't be upset.

The problem is that it wasn't. Literally near the end of the previous season, Dany was making a speech reminding the audience that she's there to save the innocents. She's constantly talking about saving the innocents.

For seemingly no reason, she disregards that because of some bells.

But consider how the show built up her being a fair and peaceful ruling queen so much (this is GoT - you come to expect just the opposite of how you think it will unfold). Consider her crucifixion of the ruling elite when she freed the slaves. Consider her burning of the Tarlys. And especially consider how she resigned to letting her subjects fear her instead of loving her. When she lost her dragons, you could tell all warmth and humanity in her pretty much peaced out. Also, when Tyrion was trying to convince her to yield when she heard the bells, her expression was deadpan, clearly showing she was not convinced.

I dunno, for me personally, I saw it coming early on.

It's not the detail of travel that people care about, it's about the way constraints facing the characters shape their actions and how it contributes to pacing. Remember how a major plot point from Seasons 1-3 emerged from the need to cross a bridge?

For all the spectacle the show was able to deliver in the later seasons, it feels smaller than it ever did during the early episodes.
For me, I think it was the fact that so many of their enemies and the obstacles thrown at them early on were now either dead/destroyed, or joined with them (save for Cersei of course). If they did throw something else up, it would (to me) seem forced and an excuse to delay their date with destiny.
 

JaseC64

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,120
Strong Island NY
The worst thing is that the directing on the episode is fantastic, the battle for Kings Landing is incredibly well done, the writing is just extremely poor and they mistreat so many of the great characters the show has.

Dany going mad is honestly one of the better things they accomplish, they absolutely build that up in a believable way, but Jamie dying while trying to rescue Cersei felt the exact opposite way and up till two episodes ago he was still a character who put his honor before family.

The problem is not the outcome, it’s the journey there and making the actions of the characters feel believable after spending so much time with them, and Jamie’s journey certainly didn’t feel believable from the moment he left Brienne sobbing in Winterfell.

Whatever the ending is next week will almost assumably be bad and Jon Snow will probably end up being the unwilling king of a kingdom he never wanted, the question is just how many weird curveballs they decide to throw at us before the end of the episode.
Someone read the spoilers for the next episode and he said " it gets worse" lmao. He didn't say what but um yea. Everyone must be prepared for for the complete opposite of what we've been lead to believe on this show.

I just want jon to go back north and say fuck it all. Died for this shit? Hell nah. We know Dany is dead now. Sansa to be the supreme ruler as she got what she wanted. "Checkmate" will be her last words as the camera pans out and screen fades to black.
 

GMM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,319
Jamie putting honor over family? Like when he threw a child to his death to protect the family secret?
That’s the very start of his character arch, he used to be someone who had no issues being evil to serve his own interests, he was never a good or directly honorable man. His arch is about redemption and season 7 literally ends with him defying Cersai to do what’s right for the realm and fight the night king as promised, season 1 Jamie would never have left Cersai in order to fight a losing battle.

It’s why his “I was always a bad man” turn in episode 4 was so disappointing and not believable, why did he even go to Winterfell in the first place if Cersai is everything he wanted at any cost, if anything that character turn needed much more time to develop.
 
Oct 28, 2017
12,741
Someone read the spoilers for the next episode and he said " it gets worse" lmao. He didn't say what but um yea. Everyone must be prepared for for the complete opposite of what we've been lead to believe on this show.

I just want jon to go back north and say fuck it all. Died for this shit? Hell nah. We know Dany is dead now. Sansa to be the supreme ruler as she got what she wanted. "Checkmate" will be her last words as the camera pans out and screen fades to black.
Conjecture
Sansa is living on borrowed time.
 

MajesticSoup

Member
Feb 22, 2019
342
What I dont like are the comparisons with the mad king. Its heavily hinted that the mad king was crazy only because he was tortured/poisoned. Danny is just crazy because she's a woman giving into her impulses. :/
 

killdatninja

Member
Oct 26, 2017
366
This. If she's cracking we should be seeing those cracks. How D&D chose to portray that was her not eating or sleeping and looking like hell. For most people that's not enough to be a convincing portrayal of someone on the brink of genocidal madness.
New school character development, when a character stops wearing foundation it's a clear sign that person has gone mad.
 

GMM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,319
Someone read the spoilers for the next episode and he said " it gets worse" lmao. He didn't say what but um yea. Everyone must be prepared for for the complete opposite of what we've been lead to believe on this show.

I just want jon to go back north and say fuck it all. Died for this shit? Hell nah. We know Dany is dead now. Sansa to be the supreme ruler as she got what she wanted. "Checkmate" will be her last words as the camera pans out and screen fades to black.
Or maybe Euron survived and teleports in to claim the throne after everyone kills themselves trying to solve the Dany problem.
 

kitchenmotors

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,516
Illinois
Really enjoyed it personally. The big twist was telegraphed from a mile away, so I'm shocked that others are shocked. For the complaints about characters "teleporting" from one side of the map to other -- do we really need to see what happened to them along the way? Is that minutia really germane to the plot as a whole?
The twist wasn’t telegraphed because it made no sense for her to snap and murder everyone in King’s Landing. Dany is a terrible character now and Cersei was never as bad.

I expected it because I read the leaks and as soon as the fire started, I literally yelled out loud are you fucking kidding me. There was no way this character earned what she did. It’s shit writing and ruins the show for me.
 

Version 3.0

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,838
A minor thing, but I thought it was quite funny that, in a show that has people, armies, and fleets teleporting across continents to exactly the time and place they want, that Jaime couldn't make it through that gate before it shut.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,633
A minor thing, but I thought it was quite funny that, in a show that has people, armies, and fleets teleporting across continents to exactly the time and place they want, that Jaime couldn't make it through that gate before it shut.
I was hoping Rey was on the other side of those rocks so she could move them.
 

Version 3.0

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,838
Oh, by the way, I'm totally rooting for Dany now. It would be the ultimate "shocking twist" if, after this week's episode, they just crown her anyway. It's the one thing no one expects, so that makes it the perfect ending by the show's own standards now.
 

stupei

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,611
Ahh yes, who doesn’t burn down everything they own!
"I will take what is mine with fire and blood and then I will set all of it on fire."

That's how she sees the residents of King's Landing. She saw the Red Keep as rightfully hers and the whole city complicit in keeping it from her. It isn't that hard to understand or see. She even says so in the episode.
Just because she said so directly in the terribly written episode doesn't mean that it's in keeping with any of her previously stated values.

That was her when she was level headed and rational, and had many loved ones and trusted advisors around her. She viewed those people as her herd. She views the people of King's Landing as complicit.
Better keep her away from the nukes during that time of the month, am I right!

How come it's just accepted that Dany got the craaaaaazy Targaryen gene and Jon is totally fine?
 

saenima

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,171
I'm accepting my futility quite well, GOT and SW fans should learn to do the same and spare us the outrage about shit that doesn't matter at all. This is supposed to be entertaining, if you aren't, if you are upset enough Just. Stop. Watching. That's a rather simple thing to solve. I doubt the ending that has been filmed is getting changed cause people are raging on the internet.
Maybe they're accepting their own futility as well. And merely discussing the merits and faults of something they enjoy, or used to enjoy.

Two things about posts like yours:

1. You contribute nothing to the thread, only disparaging people having a conversation about their hobbies. To feel superior, i guess.

2. I'm leaning more and more into the belief that the most outraged people on the internet are those that label everyone else as outraged.

But please carry on with your indignation.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,039
I never loved dany either. She still was never portrayed to be anything like this.
except when she has always had a god complex and all her good ideas are her advisers telling her what to do.

she was a fragile person who only knew that she is the rightful ruler and everyone should love her because she is their rightful ruler.

she was psycho from the beginning. she would have been more tyranical early on if it wasnt for tyrion, the dude that loved her, etc.
 

jviggy43

Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,815
What I dont like are the comparisons with the mad king. Its heavily hinted that the mad king was crazy only because he was tortured/poisoned. Danny is just crazy because she's a woman giving into her impulses. :/
Thats another thing thats driving me nuts. Everyone is talking about how insanity was passed on through genetics but the mad king went mad due to being poisoned. But then again nothing about this writing makes sense so. Maybe she just forgot that insanity wasn't hereditary

except when she has always had a god complex and all her good ideas are her advisers telling her what to do.

she was a fragile person who only knew that she is the rightful ruler and everyone should love her because she is their rightful ruler.

she was psycho from the beginning. she would have been more tyranical early on if it wasnt for tyrion, the dude that loved her, etc.
She really wasnt. Thats revisionist history and selectively choosing which parts of her life to use to support this end while ignoring the many, MANY more instances of her being good and refraining from being tyrannical.
 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,061
"I will take what is mine with fire and blood and then I will set all of it on fire."



Just because she said so directly in the terribly written episode doesn't mean that it's in keeping with any of her previously stated values.



Better keep her away from the nukes during that time of the month, am I right!

How come it's just accepted that Dany got the craaaaaazy Targaryen gene and Jon is totally fine?
That's a very good question. Another is why he isn't immune to dragon fire. I think it's odd that everything Dany says is taken at face value with no look at what her actions vs words vs reactions are to situations. I saw this development coming and it was of no surprise to me, if very rushed. That time of the month comment is pretty crass.
 
Mar 25, 2019
99
Ah that's a misrepresentation/straw man if I ever saw one. People were saying she has a believable amount of experience and skill as an assassin to even attempt it. Jon had his chance and blew it like an idiot, and people were still bitching he didn't get his deserved duel he was entitled to or wrote some horrible fan fiction version of what would have satisfied them. It got to the point they were using cinematic effects for that scene as logistic proof of their complaints. GoT fans that have taken such personal affront to the show are embarrassing. Morrigan has been a critic of the show since it started and even she was starting to get uneasy with the 'Arya shouldn't have been the one' shit.
The thing is that both the show and the books have been pounding it into our heads forever that Jon is important, so I think it's understandable that people wanted Jon to have something to do with defeating the Night King, even if it was just intentionally keeping Viserion distracted so that Arya could slip into the Godswood.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,653
"I've built my entire rebellion from the ground up, for literally years, freeing thousands upon thousands of slaves even when sometimes it was harder to do. Right on the brink of a successful pillage- the penultimate one if you will- I decide to slaughter thousands of innocents in a passing tiff."

 

Zen

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,061
The thing is that both the show and the books have been pounding it into our heads forever that Jon is important, so I think it's understandable that people wanted Jon to have something to do with defeating the Night King, even if it was just intentionally keeping Viserion distracted so that Arya could slip into the Godswood.
Jon is a fantastic charismatic leader despite his reluctance and competent soldier, but he's not an adept combat strategist and the Night King knew he was a threat and kept him out of arms reach. I wanted to see Jon fight him too, but the moment NK raised the dead of Winterfell I was like 'yeah...not happening'
 
Mar 25, 2019
99
I actually liked this episode a lot. It was painful to watch, but I was legitimately surprised by the ending.

Call me naive, but I almost took for granted that Daenerys would stop short of becoming a "mad queen". Looking back on things, though, there were signs that I definitely missed. The person who came back from the Dosh Khaleen was very different, and not in a good way. We've been conditioned for so long to like and root for Dany, so I chalked it up to her just getting stronger and harder, but the truth is that the kindness that drove her to end slavery in Essos was all but gone. The things that would have made her a good ruler were quickly melting away, leaving only a ruthless conqueror.

In Westeros, the degradation of her mental state accelerated. Although she had been conditioned by her brother at a very young age to consider Westeros "home", it only existed in her mind as a concept. When she finally got there, she found herself as a foreigner in a foreign land. Whereas she had been loved as the "breaker of chains" in Eastern Essos, she found no such adoration in Westeros. Despite how horribly Cercei had ruled, she was still seen as a foreign conqueror.

Where is "home" for Daenerys? A better question is 'where was it'? Home was sleeping under the stars in the Dothraki Grass Sea next to her Sun and Stars, Khal Drogo. Home was the endless horseback rides listening to Ser Jorah's wise council and stories about the West. Home was confiding in her sweat servant Missandei at the top of the Great Masters' Pyramid in Mereen. These places were certainly not always ideal, but she knew who she was and where she was going. Maybe that's what "home" is? Now, though, does Daenerys have a home? Does she belong in this world that she's fought so hard to help create?

And then, there's all the losses. First it was Viserion. Then came Jorah. She essentially lost Jon after he discovered his true parentage. Then came Rhaegal, and finally, Missandei. Everyone she had grown close to since the beginning of her journey was simply gone. All that's left for her is to take what she seen as her birthright for so many years: the Iron Throne. And now, even that is slipping away due to the beloved Jon Snow having a better claim. Does she even remember why she wants that throne? The Daenerys who crossed the Red Waste with her Khalesar would have said she wanted to free her people from the Usurper's unjust rule, but that naive, optimistic, kindhearted, intelligent girl who, despite all she had already suffered, still knew how to trust and love, is all but gone. All that is left now is the pain and the hatred.
 

RockGun90

Member
Jul 28, 2018
115
I'm accepting my futility quite well, GOT and SW fans should learn to do the same and spare us the outrage about shit that doesn't matter at all. This is supposed to be entertaining, if you aren't, if you are upset enough Just. Stop. Watching. That's a rather simple thing to solve. I doubt the ending that has been filmed is getting changed cause people are raging on the internet.
 

The_hypocrite

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,467
Flyover State
Maybe they're accepting their own futility as well. And merely discussing the merits and faults of something they enjoy, or used to enjoy.

Two things about posts like yours:

1. You contribute nothing to the thread, only disparaging people having a conversation about their hobbies. To feel superior, i guess.

2. I'm leaning more and more into the belief that the most outraged people on the internet are those that label everyone else as outraged.

But please carry on with your indignation.
So how can I feel superior while highlighting my own futile existence?
That’s the very start of his character arch, he used to be someone who had no issues being evil to serve his own interests, he was never a good or directly honorable man. His arch is about redemption and season 7 literally ends with him defying Cersai to do what’s right for the realm and fight the night king as promised, season 1 Jamie would never have left Cersai in order to fight a losing battle.

It’s why his “I was always a bad man” turn in episode 4 was so disappointing and not believable, why did he even go to Winterfell in the first place if Cersai is everything he wanted at any cost, if anything that character turn needed much more time to develop.
He isn't a redeemable character. He has always been awful. Everytime he defended a vicious ruler like Cersei which he knows to be a fucking monster just highlights this point even more. That's why he went to try to save her, between doing the right thing and Cersei he always chose her, his actions in the last episode were consistent with his character. Do you remember why he killed the mad king? Cersei did the what he tried to do and Jamie got her pregnant as a reward.
 

Gunter

Member
Mar 30, 2019
19
It's such a travesty that the writing isn't getting the same treatment as the production. As bad as the story is getting, it looks marvelous.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,931
It’s a shame because the episode itself was great on its own. Very tense and beautifully shot.

The writing was just not good.... it made so little sense for Dany to do that.