Yep. The episode was just fine and awesome. Just enjoy the ride, Daenerys style.
lol at all the peeps here. Just wait for the books to fini...
nvmnd.
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The penultimate episode of Game of Thrones is the lowest rated episode in series history (critic reviews)
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lol at all the peeps here. Just wait for the books to fini...
nvmnd.
Where did I say anything about people being polite about it? Some are being complete assholes even, especially a lot of the personally attacking D&D shit, but there's also a lot of people basically saying "the show is fine, shut up crying" like it adds literally anything to the conversation, they are the only ones that bother me, I don't care if you like the show and have no interest in changing those that are enjoying it's mind. I have no issue with people who are liking it arguing why it's good that they did this or that (not actually seen any arguments though, just the "it's enjoyable still", which I'm whatever about).
Because nailing the ending is perceived by many to be more important than some shoddy episodes/story beats 60-70% through the overall story. The entertaining spectacle and a couple of character moments are there, the satisfying, narratively sound decade-in-the-making conclusions to most people's favourite characters story arcs are not.
again I don't see why people are blaming season 8 for this when the actual problem is they fucked up seasons 5-7. Dany's heel turn wouldn't seem so rushed if they didn't spend so much time making her seem like someone you could name your daughter after for no reason. The Long Night wouldn't have been so anticlimactic if they didn't create this menacing snow voldemort so Arya would have someone to stab. euron would in general suck less if they didn't decide to write out the iron born until they realized they needed an iron fleet.
Episode 5 was a fucking masterpiece compared to episode 4.
Dany was always going to go Mad Queen and from what I've heard from people who read the books, they've been expecting it to happen there too. The way the botched the lead up to it was the worse but almost all of that was due to episode 4. The only thing episode 5 did wrong in that regard was having the final point be Jon not wanting to fuck his aunt.
Dany was always going to go Mad Queen and from what I've heard from people who read the books, they've been expecting it to happen there too. The way the botched the lead up to it was the worse but almost all of that was due to episode 4. The only thing episode 5 did wrong in that regard was having the final point be Jon not wanting to fuck his aunt.
That's nonsense, her eyebrows are amazing :3
It's the penultimate episode that fucks up 2 major character arcs (massively so for one character), among other things. Can't say I blame folks, it's certainly up there at the very least.
Framing it as people having a vendetta is disingenuous when Episode 3-5 have genuinely earned their controversy.
One of these days there will be a thread about an underwhelming product and this lameass nothing of an excuse will not be uttered.
It will not be today though.
There are quite a number of posts detailing what they liked and disliked and thought was done well or not, and they either get ignored or get responses to the tune of 'stop trying to analyze anything, it's worthless because the writing is shit' as if that adds anything of substance at all, or are told they're just looking for reasons to justify bad writing. Respond with reasons why you think a particular decision was logical or justified and you get told you have no idea what you are talking about or get a vehement rebuttal attempting to prove you wrong about your own interpretation, why? Because shit writing, your opinion is invalid and worthless. It isn't that people are dissatisfied that irks me, it's this underlying narrative that anyone who hasn't got some reservation with the show is a plebeian peasant with shit taste not worth including in the discussion. I don't think dismissing criticism adds anything either, but it's more than just people trying to shut up critics, is what I'm saying.
visually speaking ep.5 is the best thing anyone ever has produced for TV. and this is amazing seeing how great battle of the bastards, long knight or spoils of war looked
Because, again, nailing the ending just often feels more important than what got you to the ending. Plenty of narratives that have their ups and downs throughout the story that can still absolutely nail the ending and perhaps make the whole seem better than it actually was.
Show Dany has pretty much nothing in her past indicating she'd be capable of this level of out of control slaughter-madness. She's been set up as someone flawed who occasionally doesn't make the best choices & maybe goes a bit overboard with how she deals with her political opponents but still ultimately wants what's best for especially the suffering masses and whatever arguably cruel things she does, those are her playing the political game in a system where other people would do the same to her if they could or were in her position. Nothing in the show that Dany herself has done has implied that she has the madness in her or that she is capable of snapping so badly that she'd go on a killing spree of tens or hundreds of thousands of civilians, other than OTHER PEOPLE throwing shade at her and reminding us of the "crazy gene" in Targaryens.
And book Dany is not show Dany. Book Dany has a bit more build-up that could lead to Mad Queenness but even there I'm not sure if I'll like it if it goes in that direction. I'd much prefer if they took some other direction. Like, Cersei or other parties' propaganda making her seem like she is a Mad Queen come to burn Westeros to the ground, even though, when viewed from her perspective, she is making perfectly level headed, good political manoeuvres against scheming, rebellious snakes based on solid intel instead of a mad conquerer's mindless slaughter.
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Because people can convince themselves that they're just fucking up interstitial stuff for seasons 4-7 or so, instead of fucking up anything too pivotal, until we're suddenly at the ending and now it's all pivotal, lol.
So is the characterization as presented in the show or the implication that hereditary illness is inescapable, but oh well!
Anyone with common sense could see that Dany was eventually going to be the "villain." We just didn't expect it to be handled like a mustache twirling cartoon character. The entire purpose of her character was to make the descent into darkness reasonable in a way that gives the viewer pause.
Here it's just played as a crazy screaming lady having her crazy lady hysterics again!
I agree, which makes it more frustrating. Imagine these production values with the writing from the first seasons.
We agree there. I think it was rushed and needed more episodes to sink in and show the descent. Not every post has to be a standoff argument.
Your approach to this entire thread has been to outright suggest that people who don't think the characterization is good are in some way too stupid to understand what you said is obviously there in the show -- yet now you admit that the necessary arc to make it work wasn't really there, even if Dany basically said her motivations directly into camera (great writing) -- and you call me crass for pointing out the rather sexist framing of the character in the show as being too unreasonable and irrational to turn away from this inevitable path, yet I'm being combative?
If the point you've been trying to make in this thread is that Dany as a character as envisioned by GRRM was always going to be what we might classify as villainous, but that it was not fully executed on at all as she's presented in the show, I really don't think I'm the only person who missed that nuance in your argument.
edit: In terms of approach to storytelling: I saw a very interesting post on tumblr earlier today that I think outlined the different approaches between GRRM and D&D when it comes to subverting expectation and why one works more than the other. GRRM focuses on our genre based expectations. We don't expect the hero to die. We don't expect the breaker of chains, the young heir to the throne, to go dark and for her fantasy symbols of power to be used for horrible violence that we actually feel remorse over. But in the world as established, when it happens, we are all the more shocked because of how much it made sense, how every single step led exactly to here. (Presumably that will be the case when he writes Dany as intended.)
But with D&D, they are less concerned with the context of the genre and how they can subvert that -- maybe they don't know it, maybe they don't trust their audience to know it -- but focus in instead on what we expect from the story because of what we know about the world, its characters, their motivations, and their actions and then just... go against that. They have characters behave exactly against things they very recently suggested were their goals, through their words and their actions. They have characters do things we expect to have consequences, and then nothing happens. Jaime's redemption? He didn't mean it. Cersei blowing up the Sept? Not actually a big deal at all. What's funny is that it could have been truly shocking and subversive if there had actually been any consequences that made sense in the world as already established. The fact that nothing happened, that the rules of this world didn't matter at all, makes the gesture meaningless. Oh, Dany didn't actually mean anything she said or did at any point? She can lose her whole god damn mind in a couple days while it took her notoriously monstrous and power mad father years? What a twist!
It's not a subversion to destroy your own world building and characterization; it's just bad writing.
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How about you not make strawmen out of my posts? I explain my view of her character within what the show has shown of her. I haven't once told someone they were too stupid to understand it, so you can stop shoving words into my mouth. It's rushed, but I can see what the general direction of her character was despite the huge leap made to get her into mass murder mode. I also fail to see the relevance of bringing in periods as a parallel to the Targaryen 50 50 coin saying which applied to her father as well. I agree the depiction of her has not been free of criticism from a sexism angle, but what the fuck are you trying to accomplish by accusing me of excusing it? You seem to be wanting to attack me directly underneath any pretense of discussion so out with it, what's your problem?
I just wish all those fans who are suddenly pissed off now, could have been annoyed when the show actually started sliding in season 5. Maybe we could have gotten something better if the feedback was there early. It probably wouldn't have made much of a difference though.
To be fair, I stopped watching after season 5 and never looked back. I haven't even seen any GOT since then. Sansa's rape as character development for what's his face was the final straw for me.
Sansa's rape was actually one of the few things fans did get angry about and the feedback was taken on board by D&D. Personally, I'd say the writing in season 5 was offensive in general and wouldn't single out a specific moment.
Well yeah of course but for me that was the straw that broke the camel's back and got me to not care about what happened anymore.
You're reading a lot into my posts for someone who is accusing me of doing the same. You said "it isn't that hard to understand or see" why Dany behaves this way which does in fact imply that anyone who disagrees isn't very smart. Unless there's some other way to take that? If someone were to find something hard to understand, that would imply things about their intelligence, I would think.
Your tone in this thread struck me as rather antagonistic, at least early one, and your justification that Dany is just a crazy person so her acting wildly out of character comes down to how crazy she is excuses the show's lazy ableism and sexism while also belittling people who would criticize it for the same. I responded in line with what I perceived as your original tone and was called crass and aggressive.
I have nothing against you personally at all.
I just don't think your attempts to shame me for my tone are at all in keeping with the original posts that tone was used in response to. If I somehow misread your intention, so did many others in the thread, as evidenced by several responses to you. I'm not sure why my bringing up menstruation has left me singled out as somehow having a personal vendetta against you. I assure you that I don't and if it has come across that way I actually do apologize because that's probably unnerving and weird. I have nothing against you personally; I honestly don't recognize you as a poster outside this thread. (I'm very bad with names.)
I just disagree with you about a TV character whose framing I think does in fact make use of a great many incredibly sexist tropes including the implication that you just can't trust women in positions of power who will easily lose their mind once a month. Your defense that you can't expect her to behave rationally because she is a crazy lady who's gonna be crazy without the men she needs to keep her emotions in check was very evocative of precisely that. But D&D are the ones whose terrible writing leads to, in my opinion, terrible defenses that sound a lot like classic sexism, but I blame them for that. Not you.
why didn't they just have her land the dragon in a town square after the surrender, her thinking the people of the town would celebrate their new queen...
Just to have the people try to kill her and throw rocks and arrows....
now destroy city
writing a believable transition isn't that fucking hard and would have taken no more than two minutes on screen.
Just to have the people try to kill her and throw rocks and arrows....
now destroy city
writing a believable transition isn't that fucking hard and would have taken no more than two minutes on screen.
Book readers have been loudly complaining since then for sure, but I guess that's too easy to write off as the usual "they're just mad it's not exactly like the books!" stuff.
For me, seeing them swerve away from Jamie's book arc back then was painful. I'm fine with adaptations being different, my issue was that they adapted his progression so closely and did so many great original scenes within that framework before. That was when I realized that maybe they didn't really care all that much about the characters on their own show.
We've endured about... three seasons of Tyrion being a huge idiot for some reason, as well? This show has been rough for a long time, with some worrying things popping up around season 4.
6 had some issues but was still pretty good. 7 had a lot of problems IMO (the two biggest is Jaime falling into the 400 feet puddle, and the entire dumb as fuck plan to get the wight).. 8 has legitimately terrible writing in every episode. I thought episode 1 was solid.
It is interesting since from the group of friends that we discuss, 6/7 are really disappointed to levels of thinking it's awful, but my one buddy enjoys it. He asked me why I didn't in our group chat, but I didn't want to go on a long rant to explain everything and let the man enjoy it, unlike on era lol
That poster also took it that way and I clarified in my response I meant she said it in the episode. My intent wasn't to imply they were stupid, but I agree it comes off that way. Thank you for explaining and yeah my early posts were definitely charged with hostility that needn't have been.
I think you might have misinterpreted my view of Dany and maybe that is my fault in part. I see her as a character that has always had a ruthless impulse, but generally used it in service of justice or otherwise moral decisions we the viewers align with. She also puts her desires first and foremost before her love of her people. She is a conqueror at her core and if she had truly wanted her people to thrive then in my opinion she would have stayed in Essos where she was already beloved with a throne of her own. For me that set the tone that she will stop at nothing to eventually get what she sees as hers. By this point in the series she has nobody to keep her impulse in check and her rational side has been eroded.
I agree that there is a leap we have to make because the show didn't take the time to show that erosion and her descent into madness, and while that can be made for some of us it's not believable for others who need to see the pieces there to make it work. But I believe that her desire to sit on the throne outweighs her love of the common folk, and that when it comes down to it she ultimately didn't see the people of King's Landing as innocents despite there being women and children present. I don't hold the view that she has always been insane, more that she has a cruel and sadistic streak serving her innermost desire in her that has always been present and that had nothing to keep it in check any longer for this episode.
I understand where you're coming from now so I'm sorry for responding so angrily. I had thought you were claiming I was saying Dany was insane because she was a woman, and that was both confusing and infuriating.
A lot of it is probably people being patient with the weirder elements, thinking they would pay off in some way down the line.
Personally... I think S7 was even worse than 8 so far. It was just as compressed and poorly written, except all the rushed plot beats mostly added up to nothing.
Yeah, seems that way. The amount of people dog piling on the show and popping up saying how rubbish it etc gives the vibe that they're doing it to be edgy and trendy.... "GOT? That's so 2017, it's shit now".... Think we need to wait a while, reflect and then judge the show end to end.
That being said, the show ain't perfect by a long stretch, but for the most part the show is entertaining me and that's all I want and expect from it.
This is a pretty lame take Tbh... The show was fantastic in basically ever aspect for the first few seasons- so that's the bar many fans expected. And now, the writing and pacing is of a very low, and as a result, it's not getting the send off many people feel these characters deserve.
Is it entertaining? Sure, the cinematography, the performances, the music- it's all top notch. But it's extremely disappointing that the story telling doesn't match. Why should we have to wait a while and reflect? I didn't have to wait to realize that I loved the show... So why should it take longer to judge it when it doesn't seem so good?
People keep saying "they needed more time/episodes," but I'm gonna hard disagree on that one.
There are several smaller choices they could have made that would have justified the turn IN THIS SEASON ALONE which just didn't happen. Most of those have been suggested here. Kill Rhaegal during the siege, have Dany indirectly kill hundreds/thousands of civilians as the Red Keep crumbles... honestly just those two changes alone would have completely fixed the turn, although I'd also appreciate if they axed the whole "Imma go crazy cuz my man don't want me" bit.
There are several smaller choices they could have made that would have justified the turn IN THIS SEASON ALONE which just didn't happen. Most of those have been suggested here. Kill Rhaegal during the siege, have Dany indirectly kill hundreds/thousands of civilians as the Red Keep crumbles... honestly just those two changes alone would have completely fixed the turn, although I'd also appreciate if they axed the whole "Imma go crazy cuz my man don't want me" bit.
It would have to greatly improve to be "just fine," but even if it were "just fine," this show deserves a lot better than "just fine."
I haven't seen a formerly great show hit the wall this hard in the writing department since Lost. I don't even care that much about GoT and watching this season has been heartbreaking in terms of the wasted potential and failure to follow through on almost every existing character arc and setup/payoff thread. Even the stuff I always knew was probably a given for the endgame of the story (Dany's Mad Queen turn, Jon and Dany coming into conflict over the throne, Cersei's world collapsing around her, the Hound going back to confront his brother, Arya's assassin skills paying off at the critical moment) is sloppily executed and lack context or any sense of establishment in terms of character development. Yes, many of those things are foreshadowed in previous episodes and seasons, but foreshadowing isn't character development. Foreshadowing the idea of Dany going Mad Queen isn't the same as doing the legwork to make that turn feel believable in the moment it happens, and they didn't even try to do it. And they know they didn't, because they had the gall to use the "previously on" catchup montage to try and patch over the lack of character work with audio clips of "waking the dragon." It was hilariously desperate and I knew they were in trouble as soon as I saw that.
I feel really bad for the huge fans who followed this show so closely for so long and aren't able to let the production values (which are admittedly phenomenal...everyone but the writers are giving 110% every damn week) dazzle them into thinking this season has been anything but garbage writing quality. The elements and even the plot points are all there. The showrunners just utterly failed to provide the connective tissue to make the plot points function properly. It's like watching a sports team forget how to play in the last seconds of a championship game. Tragic.
Hey, this is me! I didn't mind much of Seasons 5, 6 and 7, even though I enjoyed S1-4 much more, but S8E5 finally broke me.
That the episode was SO well made (spectacular really) and I'm still ending up hating it speaks volumes. While I know it might read like bragging, I had the fortune to discover the books before the HBO show, and I was always an advocate for their filmic potential to all my friends and social circle. I have supported the show and books for years, with all their highs and lows, believing it is one of those rare moments were we have something really special going on.
That GoT is ending like a middling fantasy show is a huge loss for the genre really. We nearly made it, but we couldn't quite make it to the end. Oh well, we'll always have LotR. :-(
I don't watch game of thrones, and it's seriously unlikely I ever will, it just doesn't appeal to me.
Could someone give me a rundown on why people are so riled up about the final season?
Could someone give me a rundown on why people are so riled up about the final season?
The show is based on an unfinished book series. Backlash from people who read the books started as early as season 5 when the writers ran out of published material and had to start basing the show on the author's cliffnotes version of events from future books. It quickly became clear their ability to write original dialogue and storylines were not remotely as good as the original author's. The show also started abandoning the complex political intrigue and interpersonal character drama in favor of bombastic action scenes that look cool and attract tons of viewers but often make no sense logistically. Season 6 was generally regarded as a step up though, so a lot of people kept quiet and it was mostly book-readers grumbling occasionally at things. Then season 7 continued to embrace the style-over-substance approach with big cool action scenes backed by a plot that was increasingly making no sense. The general consensus at that point was "The show is pretty to look at and the overall plot is okay, it's just the minute-to-minute story decisions that don't work, but casual viewers don't care about that, they're just here for explosions and dragons." Then they ruined the explosions and dragons too.
The big problem is that the writers have decided to rush to the finish line at the fastest pace possible even though HBO told them they could have as many episodes or seasons as they needed to finish the story. But they insisted they only needed 7 episodes for season 7 and 6 episodes for season 8. As a result, we end up with things like the show's biggest and most important storyline being resolved in a single anticlimactic episode or a major character undergoing at least a full season's worth of controversial character development in the span of two episodes.
Ostensibly they have taken years and years of character growth and shit up down the pipe for the sake of nothing.
A lot of people are upset because
they turned Daenerys into a tyrant, something that was signposted for quite a while but has still left some shocked, especially people who have been rooting for her despite the evidence that the show would do this. It was poorly executed due to them rushing though.
They've fucked up a lot and people are justifiable annoyed but the spoilered is a lot of it and it's the least justifiable.
The wiring has basically gone from quite a political, well thought out show to doing things that make no sense whatsoever and has turned lots of intelligent characters into morons for the sake of plot points (that also aren't clear).
And massively this too
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That would've been better but that still would've sucked. There's never been any established hatred toward Dany, just apathy. You'd have to establish a lot of fear of the return of the Targaryen's beforehand. We don't really know much about the townspeople except that they're probably hicks that want to be left alone.
So basically, the writers can't into original content, and the show went down the drain?
Yes, which is why people are concerned about them being given Star Wars.
Finally watched the Inside the Episode and the explanation for Dany's decision in the moment is laughable.
It's like getting someone who knows GOT only through short summaries from the audience, to write the end of the show.