The Phobic Crimes of Katsura Hashino (Director/Producer, ATLUS)

[lusca_bueno]

With the release of Persona 5 Strikers, is there any untoward content that we need to know about?

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I chose to take Ryuji to ferris wheel (I know, I'm dumb), cause I imagined any girl I'd take with me would turn into romance and I wanted Makoto to do my nails and talk shit about Ryuji behind his back with me. But then taking Ryuji made him act a LOT homohysteric, saying things like "being in this [ferris wheel] situation with another guy hurts a man's ego", implying the ideal performance of a man is being in a romance with a girl, and that it was weird that they were there at all, and that's considering Yusuke also came along to make things less intimate because god forbid this game be gay even in the mind of someone.

In the beginning there are also implications through other characters that abusive behavior from men is to be expected, almost as if implying it's nature, being responded with "it's ok we girls can defend ourselves against [OUR OWN FRIENDS]". In the hot springs the same idea is being set as if the guys can't simply shout from behind the fake-ass rock "HEY WE'RE STILL HERE JUST GIVE US A MOMENT AND WE'LL LEAVE". They make this kind of sexual situations between men and women almost everytime they get the chance.

In Osaka, I chose to take the girls cause they were all together and I thought ~yas it's time to be gay with them (I obviously didn't think that, but I didn't want another homohysteria episode), and then the girls started an argument about who would Joker take as his true love, as if women would do that, demand attention from a man like that, ugh, Atlus is so weird.

I mean, you kinda grow to expect this shit from Persona. We need other studios that are more aligned with an inclusive social performance to be doing this kind of colorful action games already, it's sad that the aesthetically gayest things in the market are actually anti-gay.

 

[Beth Cyra]

Generally, the issue arises from the idea that Ann is both a victim of a story revolving around sexual assault, and they try to make her a sort of femme fatale character at the same time, which, at best, feels disconnected, and at worst feels rather scummy. It's also kind of highlighted because the protagonist's homeroom teacher is a social link and can be dated which again, at best, feels disconnected from the first story arc.

The homophobia in P5 was always a rather small section of a couple minutes in the original release. Not defensible by any means, but really not that prevalent especially in comparison to 4. Royal localization also changes the script to make it generally less offensive as well which is a plus.

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I would argue that Royal does NOT make it less offensive, they just changed it from being homophobic to targeting Cross Dressing individuals instead.

They still creep and are not acceptable and it's awful that we in the LBGT only have it better because another group was slandered.

 

[HylianSeven]

Yup. It was really striking as I played it recently. The message was basically settle down and be like the others; history must be maintained. If you have any different aspirations besides those laid out for you by society, you're just confused. Your true self isn't a function of you but of national culture, and real power comes from giving in.

It bummed me out and made me wonder how amazing a progressive Persona could be.

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I said it in my above post, but play the Persona 2 duology. :)

 

[Viale]

I would argue that irks argues me that Royal does NOT make it less offensive, they just changed it from being homophobic to targeting Cross Dressing individuals as well.

They still creep and are not acceptable and it's awful that we in the LBGT only have it better because another group was slandered.

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I personally more read it as overzealous people thinking Ryuji would be a great model vs actually kind of predatory(as per the original) and found the butt of the joke to shift to Ryuji instead of "crazy couple", but I can understand if it wasn't enough for sure. I'm also not part of either group of people, so obviously my view shouldn't be taken to mean much.

 

[Deleted member 3208]

In a way, I'd say the game's conservative viewpoint is baked into the design of the game. Yukiko moving out is theoretically a major plot event - if she actually did so, she would have to leave the party, her social link wouldn't be available, etc. Obviously, you couldn't account for this dynamically, it's just too much work.

So such an event should, if they wanted to include it, be part of the main story. But Yukiko's personal growth and agency aren't important enough to be part of the main story beyond her initial introductory arc (this is a whole other can of worms), so the writers put her character moments in her social link. But her social link could happen at any time, so nothing can be of consequence until the ending, when the story can finally know for sure where in the plot it is.

In a sense the game is doomed to fail in this regard, the social link system as it stands in Persona 4 just isn't compatible with major changes to the status quo. And then the writers double down, even when such changes could be included despite that.

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This is something that Persona 3 handled better. Character growth wasn't tied to their social links, instead, their development flowed naturally with the plot. This is one of my biggest complaints of Persona 4 and 5. But yeah, characters in these games aren't allowed to grow after their introductory arc because the writers aren't interested in doing that.

As for Yukiko, I assumed she was planning to move out after graduating from high school. Guess I was wrong in this regard.

A question I have is does Tokyo Mirage Sessions have any sexist, homophobic or transphobic content in it and did Hashino work on that game? I know there was a bathhouse scene in it that was cut from the western release so presumably there was some iffy stuff there but what about the rest of the game?

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I don't recall anything homophobic or transphobic in this game, neither sexist. Worst in this regard are Tsubasa and Kiria battle costumes. There is for sure some weird shit with a certain otaku character and the youngest party member of your party, which is 11 years old.

 

[dude]

Yup. It was really striking as I played it recently. The message was basically settle down and be like the others; history must be maintained. If you have any different aspirations besides those laid out for you by society, you're just confused. Your true self isn't a function of you but of national culture, and real power comes from giving in.

It bummed me out and made me wonder how amazing a progressive Persona could be.

Click to shrink...

For sure. I think the reason I stopped playing P4G is because I was so mad at it for not using it's wonderful gameplay loop to tell a less regressive story. I kept wishing for a Buffy game with that mechanic (and I'd still take it if there's a way Whedon somehow wouldn't see a penny from it ): )

 

[Gradon]

I chose to take Ryuji to ferris wheel (I know, I'm dumb), cause I imagined any girl I'd take with me would turn into romance and I wanted Makoto to do my nails and talk shit about Ryuji behind his back with me. But then taking Ryuji made him act a LOT homohysteric, saying things like "being in this [ferris wheel] situation with another guy hurts a man's ego", implying the ideal performance of a man is being in a romance with a girl, and that it was weird that they were there at all, and that's considering Yusuke also came along to make things less intimate because god forbid this game be gay even in the mind of someone.

In the beginning there are also implications through other characters that abusive behavior from men is to be expected, almost as if implying it's nature, being responded with "it's ok we girls can defend ourselves against [OUR OWN FRIENDS]". In the hot springs the same idea is being set as if the guys can't simply shout from behind the fake-ass rock "HEY WE'RE STILL HERE JUST GIVE US A MOMENT AND WE'LL LEAVE". They make this kind of sexual situations between men and women almost everytime they get the chance.

In Osaka, I chose to take the girls cause they were all together and I thought ~yas it's time to be gay with them (I obviously didn't think that, but I didn't want another homohysteria episode), and then the girls started an argument about who would Joker take as his true love, as if women would do that, demand attention from a man like that, ugh, Atlus is so weird.

I mean, you kinda grow to expect this shit from Persona. We need other studios that are more aligned with an inclusive social performance to be doing this kind of colorful action games already, it's sad that the aesthetically gayest things in the market are actually anti-gay.

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all of this is extremely disappointing god fucking dammit. Also 10000000% to the bolded bc holy shit this has been the sentiment in my queer groups for years.

I said this a long time ago in this thread but Hashino isn't the only person on the dev team guilty of regressive content in Persona and Catherine, and now Strikers has fully proven it too.

 

[PAFenix]

A question I have is does Tokyo Mirage Sessions have any sexist, homophobic or transphobic content in it and did Hashino work on that game? I know there was a bathhouse scene in it that was cut from the western release so presumably there was some iffy stuff there but what about the rest of the game?

Click to shrink...

I've only completed through Chapter 2, so I haven't seen something necessarily phobic. But I've seen other contradictory messaging, which coincides with the inconsistent messaging that dude mentioned for P4, so I wanted to bring it up.

The chapter basically starts with Tsubasa (a new idol) being uncomfortable modeling clothes. When the chapter ends, she comes to terms with owning her look and things being fine so long as she's confident. That message in and of itself isn't bad, but it felt...unearned? It's hard to say exactly. I feel like the game was trying to say something about objectifying idols, but didn't want to rock the boat too much. So in the end, she's just fine with it and the game goes on like normal.

And I wanted to point this out because it's the exact same messaging that comes in Persona 4: Dancing All Night. The game starts off heavily criticizing the idol industry and how overworking the new introduced characters can lead to some bad shit, but essentially ends by saying "But if you work hard enough and ignore all the creepy fans, you'll be fine!"

 

[Deleted member 21411]

I've said it forever but persona 5 would have been my favorite jrpg of all time if..... I could actively cut stuff out of it. Atlus post p3 has been deeply conflicting because the games are all.... Really really queer. But like objectively the antilgbtq stuff is so all over the place and there's been this really creepy vibe with the female characters.

The word I use is spoil, you have these wonderful games that has this smell of rotten milk. They are fantastic, I easily recommend them, but God every game you have to purposely forgot or look away so often. I can't even say it's a Japanese thing, it's not it's just atlus

I personally more read it as overzealous people thinking Ryuji would be a great model vs actually kind of predatory(as per the original) and found the butt of the joke to shift to Ryuji instead of "crazy couple", but I can understand if it wasn't enough for sure. I'm also not part of either group of people, so obviously my view shouldn't be taken to mean much.

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It's better but it puts Ryuji in the exact same situation ann was in earlier with the ticking clock of "he gonna paint me" and idk it was gross there it's gross here. But I don't blame the localization I literally don't know what better they could have done

 

[Eric ShanRick]

I kinda hope Hoshino puts a lgbt character in his next game just to see of he has matured

 

[riq]

Only read the first page, but I'm playing through P4 on PS2 for the first time now and I'm surprised the OP didn't mention Naoto's dungeon and its conclusion.

Its like, the author wants to tackle LGBT stuff and tries to relate to young folks problems. But his ideals are so old and bigoted that the ending product smells progressive, looks accepting, but it's hateful instead.

Persona is a series that pretends to be about accepting oneself, but its rather about accepting to conform.

Even the less harmful stuff is still dumb and backwards. Yukiko

Spoiler

is a girl who has all these expectations on her shoulders about what she has to be. And she initially shows no interest in pursuing that. The conclusion to her arc is her conforming to the destiny her family planned for her from the beginning?! Wtf

 

[Judge]

Please do not necrobumo old threads with no news