-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
The Phobic Crimes of Katsura Hashino (Director/Producer, ATLUS)
- Thread starter ASaiyan
- Start date
- Status
Because it's a badly handled scene with terrible writing. I also believe that giving just a bit of player agency so you can tell him off could have save the scene.
I'm sorry you've been hurt by their actions, hopefully you can feel better soon!
Personally, I think it's important to have those discussions when something major like this occurs, the original thread got quite a bit of traction, on-top of Twitter and I'm sure by now it's been covered by many media outlets.
Whether or not anything will change remain to be seen but at least it isn't going unnoticed.
He's never even questioned or challenged. It's BAFFLING.
And yet we aren't, and the only option the game gives you is complacency every time it happens.
You have to ask why that is.
My first reflex yesterday during this whole storm was also to ban Catherine Full Body — or at least deprive it of an OT. I mean, what an awful and unacceptable situation! But after some thoughts and further discussions, I arrived at the conclusion that we actually NEED to talk about the issues here. Isn't it by confronting its demons that a society becomes able to grow and evolve?
And as I already said before, I firmly believe that Atlus needs to be confronted and held accountable for their shit.
No one is questioned or challenged for their disgusting sexist,inhumane behavior against Anne in P5 either.(that part where they use her body against her will)
It even conflicts directly with the whole Kamoshida arc.
Its a failure.
Yeah.
Also, someone mentioned Kanji is not gay and his plot was about toxic masculinity.
But the fact is the game clearly drives in a direction to make us think Kanji is gay, to the point of outright insulting gay people by the imagery of his dungeon, Yosuke's homophobic comments and Kanji's attraction to Naoto.
Basically they used the subcontext of dealing with toxic masculinity (which can also be directly tied to homophobia) to explore the sexuality theme and outright mock gay people.
By making Kanji not being gay in the end, it is like they are giving the middle finger for the community after using it for the sole purpose of "comic relief" since there is no validation or acceptance in the end (which ultimately could redeem the homophobic stuff by pointing out how wrong those attitudes were)
I'm not trying to excuse their bigotry. I think the writing surrounding these topics is horrible as a queer person myself. I wish they would listen at the very least listen to LGBT+ groups in Japan, but the truth is, if it sells, they don't care. I don't know how Japan received Full Body, and if there is enough blowback, they may have to start listening. The best thing to do right now is to vote with your wallet, and make Full Body tank in the West if you want to get them to listen to at the very least those who play Catherine, and to boycott Re:Fantasy if you don't want to see Hashino at Atlus.
Unfortunately, there's not really anything like bad publicity when it comes to writing. Catherine's gameplay is still a draw for people, and if the writing is the only downside, it's going to end up picking up nasty people as those disgusted leave.
I'm trying to think through things from an industry standpoint because I'm still so disgusted by the writing in Full Body, especially since I was looking forward to it myself. Did they think they were actually being progressive? I don't know. Either way, it's no excuse to throw trans people under the bus.
But... what's it about when Kanji's crushing on Naoto, despite clearly, along with everyone else, thinking Naoto was a man? And Kanji is not a deep person. That's something else the game often jokes about: him being stupid. So him having some secret powers of perception and just magically knowing Naoto was a girl the whole time makes no sense. He thought she was a man, and was completely fine with that and didn't question that in of itself, which means she must have appeared masculine enough to him at the time. But yet he was attracted to Naoto anyway and had an obvious crush going on.
Naoto of course gets revealed to be a woman during her dungeon, and then the whole thing is mostly dropped after that (except in Persona 4 Golden, where during the ski trip there are additional scenes that make it pretty clear that Kanji is still crushing on Naoto).
However, the point remains that Kanji was attraced to Naoto when he thought Naoto was a guy, and had no particular doubts that Naoto was a guy in his mind. The only way to make sense of that are that either Kanji is indeed gay, and they just backed off from that at the very last second, or that he's at the very least bi- or pansexual. Him being anything else isn't really an option as written.
Last edited:
Indeed. They throw Anne's entire character progression under the bus for some nude jokes and a weird undercurrent that Yusuke is just as gross as Ryoji at the end of the day, which comes back later with his social link progression.
That is simply because they care more about satisfying Otaku desires a checklist of tropes than producing a serious story.
This is why I'm a huge proponent of Kanji being bi/pan. At the end of the day, he was still attracted to Naoto when they were presenting as male, and still was attracted to her when he found she identified as female. I still think his arc is about toxic masculinity, but he's still queer regardless in my opinion.
Yusuke acts like a completely different person from his introduction to the rest of the story to his Confidant. I can't stand how they wrote him; he's all over the place, though I guess you could say the same thing about the majority of P5's cast. This is why I always tell people that Persona 5's gameplay is near flawless, but it's writing is garbage. Hell, Persona 5's disaster of a story and lackluster translation is why I'm studying narrative design in the first place. I was so disappointed...
The idea of Kanji being bullied for his interest in feminine things is borne out of Homophobia.
You like feminine things so you are GAY, and being gay is WRONG.
The logic should be that there's nothing wrong with being thought of as gay.
However, the game sidesteps this even after making a big fuzz about his (apparent) attraction towards the same sex. It never addresses the ridicule and gay panic. It just conveniently ends it in a heteronormative way (Kanji liking Naoto).
Like, I get that being thought of as gay for liking feminine things is a traumatic experience, but that is a result of homophobia. We need to recognize it for what it is.
You like feminine things so you are GAY, and being gay is WRONG.
The logic should be that there's nothing wrong with being thought of as gay.
However, the game sidesteps this even after making a big fuzz about his (apparent) attraction towards the same sex. It never addresses the ridicule and gay panic. It just conveniently ends it in a heteronormative way (Kanji liking Naoto).
Like, I get that being thought of as gay for liking feminine things is a traumatic experience, but that is a result of homophobia. We need to recognize it for what it is.
Being a non-conforming male myself, I find it really disheartening that once again a male character that has feminine qualities is automatically interpreted as gay on this board. Having a deep seeded fear of being accused as gay due to the pressures of toxic masculinity was definitely something I had to deal with in high school, and I'm kinda tired of reading every thread where Kanji is mentioned as reinforcing that awful stereotype.
Then you have Naoto who has the exact same problem. She wanted to be respected as a detective but toxic gender roles prevented that so she had to hide her gender. Kanji picks up on this and sees her as a kindred spirit. The previous post that tries to reach super hard that Kanji is attracted to men because of his relationship with Naoto continues to push that awful stereotype.
It's incredibly frustrating and I wish some of you would knock that shit off.
Then you have Naoto who has the exact same problem. She wanted to be respected as a detective but toxic gender roles prevented that so she had to hide her gender. Kanji picks up on this and sees her as a kindred spirit. The previous post that tries to reach super hard that Kanji is attracted to men because of his relationship with Naoto continues to push that awful stereotype.
It's incredibly frustrating and I wish some of you would knock that shit off.
I appreciate you making this thread, but saying that P5 is "one of the greatest RPGs of all time", while at the same time acknowledging the incredibly vile views this game promotes feels really dissonant. This separation in games between aspects we like and damaging content in them is what keeps holding the industry back from maturing, and what makes most people continue to buy these games regardless of the aspects they find revolting. The story beats surrounding Ann and the 1950s gays-are-sexual-predators side story absolutely DISQUALIFY it from being a great RPG. And "random phobic taint"? You're underselling that a bit. Persona 5 has some of the most toxic, hateful homophobia expressed in any game I've ever played. It literally portrays gay men as stalkers and potential rapists of teenage boys.
Speaking generally, we as a community have to stop giving studios and franchises we love free passes. "It's a shame..." has to become "I won't buy that." Otherwise we become endorsers and amplifiers of these views by giving people like Hashino a platform. Also, the press has to hold these games to higher account on that front, and we have to hold them to that as well.
I'm also not sure if the problematic aspects at Atlus are just limited to Hashino's influence. I play the Shin Megami Tensei mobile game Dx2, and one of the characters you can use puts up with some of the worst fat shaming I've seen in a game. By his own teammates. To give you an idea, his team code name is "Meat Balloon". I couldn't find any information about whether the game shares writing credits with the Persona series, and afaik Hashino has no involvement with the project, but it feels like his DNA is there.
I know it's already been mentioned, and I try to stay out of topics that make me a little heated, but I have to say my piece anyway.
Kanji's story is not about if he's gay or not, it's about if the things he enjoys (eg: knitting) are effeminate and gender norms. Naoto's dungeon touches on this too.
- Kanji is a dumb teenager, in 2008, with other dumb teenagers. Of course the dungeon is stupid shit.
- Him realising he is gay would completely undo the lesson of the story, which is that you don't have to be gay to like knitting!!
That said, I would be fully on board with a gay Kanji, but he would need a completely new arc.
Also Trashino's stuff gets worse and worse over time. It's really frustrating as Persona 4G was so important to me back when it came out, and still fills a special place in my life, and it's hard to go back to.
I also enjoyed P3 and P5 for many reasons, but it's clear the dude just keeps writing variations of the same story over and over. Persona 6 desperately needs a new director.
On another note, who directed Persona 3 Portable? I didn't see if it was mentioned here anywhere.
FeMC's route is amazingly written, a step above the original route and P4 in some ways too. Trashino is listed as producer, not director...
Kanji's story is not about if he's gay or not, it's about if the things he enjoys (eg: knitting) are effeminate and gender norms. Naoto's dungeon touches on this too.
- Kanji is a dumb teenager, in 2008, with other dumb teenagers. Of course the dungeon is stupid shit.
- Him realising he is gay would completely undo the lesson of the story, which is that you don't have to be gay to like knitting!!
That said, I would be fully on board with a gay Kanji, but he would need a completely new arc.
Also Trashino's stuff gets worse and worse over time. It's really frustrating as Persona 4G was so important to me back when it came out, and still fills a special place in my life, and it's hard to go back to.
I also enjoyed P3 and P5 for many reasons, but it's clear the dude just keeps writing variations of the same story over and over. Persona 6 desperately needs a new director.
On another note, who directed Persona 3 Portable? I didn't see if it was mentioned here anywhere.
FeMC's route is amazingly written, a step above the original route and P4 in some ways too. Trashino is listed as producer, not director...
Everybody deserves empathy... except for you two; Kanji's totally gay and the game's just backpedaling on it. Your issues are probably not real.
It's stupid anime tropes (old tired ones at that). No way can this this be a Hashino thing alone, it's likely that the studio itself is a straight boys club and no one has ever challenged that. It's a shame really, I like their stuff and it can be surprisingly progressive in other ways but it's pretty eye rolling they keep coming back to this well.
I really hope this is sarcasm because this is probably the most bullshit response I've gotten on this board and the old forum. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because that's a fucking disgusting response.
Yes, I don't think it's Hashino alone either. It's bigger than that.
But it should be pointed out that 25% of Atlus' employees are female. Many in influential positions, too.
And you don't question where that fear of "being thought of as gay" comes from?
Or the fact that the game makes the deliberate choice of having Kanji's shadow be a walking stereotype of gay people? Or that his dungeon is a bathouse that says "MALE ONLY"? (yet another gay stereotype about promiscuity).
I can assure you, it's just as crappy actually being gay and ridiculed.
These narratives that uplift breaking gender norms, while at the same time making LGBT the butt of jokes, need to end.
Of course it's sarcasm. I just find it completely ironic that you're not being afforded the same level of empathy that some people are asking for.
Let's not forget that Kanji's story begins with him crushing on Naoto who he believe to be a boy.
Kanji's core theme is ABSOLUTELY him struggling with his sexual identity, dealing with homosexuality, gender norms and the definition of masculinity. The point is it doesn't matter whether Kanji is gay or not, as regardless of eithter scenario, he's comfortable with himself and who he is.
But again, that does not forgive the copious scenarios involving gay panic towards kanji from people who think he definitely is gay within the story. Also Kanji is still dealing with confronting his sexuality later in the game in his social link and in the other canon games like P4A and P4U.
His story certainly does not stop at the fact that he accepts that he likes working with textiles.
Granted it's been nigh on a decade since I've played P4, but If I remember correctly, Kanji has no idea that Naoto isn't a boy until well into her own storyline as the player isn't SUPPOSED to know her gender either (even though we totally do because various reasons). I don't tremember any of the kindred spirit stuff happening until well after her dungeon.
Relatively good for the environment doesn't mean healthy. That number should be 50% including all key positions, if not, there's a lot of work to do. Perhaps some gay and transgender employees as well. This type of thing happens a lot less when you have diversity in the decision making.
Off the top of my head, Soejima's entire art team for Persona 5 was female besides him, and Hanako Oribe, his technical second-in-command, was the Art Director for PQ2!
i feel like people are missing the fact that atlus games recently have been doubling down on otaku bullshit. you can't be progressive while trying to appeal to them. it completely fucks with whatever you are trying to do with a project because you're trying to include a bunch of anime tropes that are fucked.
Yeah I get it. That's a problem overall with P4's story, and Yosuke (as mentioned in the OP).
It's more directed to people thinking his story backpeddles or changed its ending, when it had a clear direction and purpose. The way Kanji is treated afterward though is stupid (but familiar to any teenager going through similar stuff 10+ years ago).
I think we can all agree that Yosuke is trash and probably a Hashino self-insert.
We can agree that it's a shit way of conveying the story, but don't erase gender nonconformity because it's not something people talk about as often. I'm not going to play oppression olympics as to how shitty either of us have been treated for who we are, but we are still on the same team when it comes to this. We're just not talked about as much because for some reason we can combat toxic masculinity yet erase those who don't fit into a box within the gender spectrum.
I'm relieved to hear it. Unfortunately due to the tone of some of these posts I feel like my spot on the gender spectrum isn't treated with the same respect as the big letters in LBGTQ. It continues to be upsetting.
its because hes a guy like in that thread about the blizzard employee who was dealing with a racist co worker who made him want to kill himself that only got a couple of pages where people were downplaying and shitting on the guy. its like society says you cant express yourself as guy or cry. this community despite being "progressive" has some seriously bad blindspots.
It really should be, but you'd be hard-pressed to find Japanese companies that even employ that much of a percent. Unfortunately, I don't think it will happen for a while, but there are some waves being made. There are more lawsuits being filed about sex discrimination in Japan, and the West is catching wind and giving these women more exposure as well. There's slow progress, but it's still progress.
Glad someone compiled a megathread about this.
The only subject I'm kind of so-so on is Kanji's sexuality.
This goes for Persona 5 too. The only gay representation Persona 5 has are those two harassing dudes. The intent behind their inclusion is clear to me. They are supposed to be some kind of ironic see-how-you-like-it setup where the boys' predatory behaviour for women is thrown back at them. Not a bad lesson, but once again this comes at the expense of gay people, who otherwise do not seem to exist in this game. Same-sex romance options or other gay characters might have made this go down more easily, like is the case for Persona 4, but we were denied this once again. The writers treat gay people like the one armed man from Arrested Development.
The only subject I'm kind of so-so on is Kanji's sexuality.
I understand the concerns that making him straight is a co-out, but I don't think they could have ended that differently without being even more insulting. When his social link is all about the question 'Does liking "girly" things make me gay and less of a man?', making Kanji gay would have affirmed all of that, and that would have been the most toxic masculinity take possible. I think one of the main issues from Kanji's integration into the game is that the homophobia in the game is never really addressed. It's used as a means to attack men, and while they settle things for the the direct victim, they never address the other side of that coin. Using homophobia like that will obviously also affect gay men themselves as well, but they go pretty much unrepresented. The game really could have used "fuck off, Yosuke" options, and male romance options to offset this. The cheap jokes in the skits also need to go.
Doubling down on otaku bullshit is how you keep afloat in the Japanese games industry now. Even Nintendo is doing it! I absolutely despise it, especially in a series like MegaTen that's generally more mature and unique with its content. But at the same time I can understand chasing that otaku money. They're a business after all.
OP
OP
I thought it was too petty to note in the OP, but they do kinda have a similar short-messy hairstyle...lol.
Yosuke is also apparently confirmed in Persona Q to dye his hair, so that orange-brown isn't his real color...
I definitely agree. There's evidence to suggest that Yosuke was going to be a romance option, but was cut late in development, which (while I know the whole "homophobe is gay" trope isn't...great) would've have done wonders to offset the harm he did.
Yusuke, in my opinion is pretty queer-coded, but it also seems to be played for laughs.
Specifically the "Passion of Christ" scene where he shows a lot of interest in you stripping, and the brother and sister on the boat insinuating you two are a couple. There's probably more I can't remember, I just remember the general vibe of "How is he not a romance option?" from his Confidant. Unfortunately, this seems to be played for laughs because he's "weird" and "doesn't know how to act properly", a.k.a. he doesn't realize things like "two me aren't supposed to go on swan boats because that's a (hetero) couple thing". Yusuke's writing just rubs me the wrong way in general.
Can someone explain to me how Kanji being confused about his sexuality and coming to the realisation he is straight is somehow negative? I've always seen his arc being that he was not attractive to men but attracted to Naoto (who Kanji thought was male) thus starting his confusion on his own sexuality.
I agreed and as much as I don't like like, Atlus needs to get dragged to help motivate itself to improve. The things that have been going on for a few years in the West are finally starting to hit Japan too, studios, especially ones that make international money, best be ready for it.
It struck as odd that in P4G (the one Hashino game I played), a game about acceptance, they played with Kanji's non-stereotypical masculinity/possible sexual identity like that, just to pull off Naoto. Seeing it as a recurring pattern, it does seem like the staff (at least writer/director) had a personal view against LGTBQ people he felt desperately in need of sharing.
So, uh... d'you think that gay and queer people in this thread think Kanji is gay because of his "feminine qualities?" What, uh... evidence do you have Kanji "picked up" on Naoto's gender? Did he ever say something implying he knew before then? Did he ever say after that he knew all along?
If, uh... Kanji had these "feminine qualities" and ended up being gay, that would have, uh... reinforced these hurtful stereotypes about gender nonconformity? Whereas, uh... when gender nonconforming queer people live in fear of homophobes interpreting their behavior as reason to hurt them that's, uh... I guess they don't count, or something? By your standards? Can never know your pain? Is their fear of reprisal and consequences due to homophobia somehow less valid 'cos they're actually gay, and you, like, got stuck with a bum deal 'cos you're not REALLY gay?
Don't you think maybe your "deep seeded fear of being accused as gay" is maybe skewing your idea of who is an ally? And downplaying the genuine concerns they have about Kanji in favor of, like... trying to shame us? People talking about Kanji's arc as anxieties about having feminine interests seem to imply there's never been gay people that have struggled with being hyperconscious of ways they are gender nonconforming because they know they're gay. Because guess what, dude? Pushing away things about yourself because you're struggling with your sexuality is something that actually happens to people. Kanji is still legitimately a seriously tough dude and his "feminine" interests don't overwrite that. And guess what? You're going to need more than "he picked up on it" to just gloss over Kanji having a crush on someone who, as far as he knew, was a guy. It's almost as if your desire to shame and downplay gay people for their identification with Kanji as "hurtful stereotypes" is actually borne of you never getting over your fear to the point it's stunting your capacity to empathize with other people.
Straight men who like feminine things are not discriminated against. You don't face ingrained, deep seeded persecution. Your rights and lives aren't at risk on a daily basis.
If your fear is that people might think you're gay, then you're being homophobic. You perceive homosexuality as something bad.
If your fear is that people might think you're gay, then you're being homophobic. You perceive homosexuality as something bad.
Yunno what, thanks for pointing out the obvious. I wrote out all those paragraphs and you managed to point out and articulate the real reason the posts about people feeling terrified of being accused of being gay rubbed me the wrong way on such a fundamental level. I still think everything I wrote is valid, but you kind of... just point out the OBVIOUS, NAKED way the "straight man terrified of being accused of being gay" thing is homophobic.
I think the game operates under cartoon logic, where if Naoto is physically/"actually" a girl, no matter how she appears, then it means he's straight.
Welp, too bad, they opened this can of worms, now they can lie in it. Kanji will always be queer to me.
Note: Kanji's story arc isn't some triumph against toxic masculinity, it's just homophobia. The conclusion is literally "it's cool to like knitting, AS LONG AS YOU AREN'T GAY. (P.S. We'll still make fun of you and treat you like a freak, kthx.)"
Because of all the bullying he receives from characters like Yosuke, that's never pushed back on or questioned at all, homophobic bullying at that. It's just written in such a way that being gay is treated as a bad thing through and through, and that's never pushed back on and no character at any point says or implies being gay is anything other than bad. And so, during Naoto's dungeon, when Kanji realizes Naoto is a woman, it's treated as a huge relief moment like "thank god I'm not gay, and everything's just fine after all, because that would be just the absolute worst, so it's wonderful that I'm not gay, definitely" and no one pushes back on that notion at all or says anything like "okay, but it would have been fine if you were gay and there's nothing wrong with that." Nope, instead it's just left at that.
And that's why it's kinda really bad that if Kanji's straight. because the way it's written, being gay is being treated as a bad thing all the way through, that's never challenged, and it's treated as a big relief moment when Kanji starts to think he's not gay after all in Naoto's dungeon. Which just, to leave it at that, with how Yosuke's treated, and Kanji's own fears over being gay, to just leave it at that and not do anything basically sends the message that Yosuke was right to bully Kanji over that and Kanji was right to be afraid of being gay, which obviously isn't very cool at all. Especially with how Yosuke treats Kanji, it's really a typical "gay panic" story, so Kanji just being straight after all and having absolutely no closure on any of that after all that, and for all that to be left hanging in the air, doesn't send the right message on homosexuality whereas if he were gay, they pretty much would be forced to tackle it head on one way or the other.
TL;DR Kanji being gay, and the idea of being gay in general, is treated as bad throughout the whole game. Then it's treated as a relief for Kani when it appears he's not gay. And that's never pushed back on at all. So him being straight is kinda just treated as an avoidance of the no good, terrible, very bad thing that must be avoided at all costs no matter what and left as the resolution of all that which... yeah, not a very good message, just leaving it on a message of relief of avoiding the "bad" thing.
And as for Naoto, well... Yeah, Kanji was attaced to Naoto. Who he thought was man. And Kanji himself is man. And a man who's attracted to another man, is, well, gay. There's no such thing as "Naoto-sexual." It makes no sense for him to just be attracted to Naoto in particular. That ain't how things work, especially since he was under no impression that Naoto was anything other than male. And he definitely has no magic powers of perception, especially since one of the other things the game likes to make fun of Kanji for is being dumb, so that he on level always knew Kanji was a woman doesn't work, while at the same time making fun of Kanji for never being that deep and being stupid about pretty much everything else. So that they have him attracted to Naoto, who he think is a man, and specifically avoid giving him any type of out whatsoever on that, until it's revealed that she is in fact a woman, that it's not like Kanji has any doubts before that or anyone else in the group is attracted to Naoto, or anything, it's just Kanji and he thinks Naoto is a man and is attracted to her anyway, well...
Like, as far as Naoto goes, it would be different if Kanji had actually thought Naoto was a woman all along and expressed some rationale for thinking so. It would be different if some of the other guys were also crushing on her, as if they too knew what was going on. But none of that's true, and Kanji just has a crush regardless. And so... yeah, that doesn't really much room for interpretation, despite the game trying to act like it's ambiguous after the fact.
Plus, as far as that goes, do correct me if I'm wrong, but the knitting stuff is really only in Kanji's social link, right? You never find out about it if you don't do it. Whereas on the other hand the homophobia and his crush on Naoto exist outside of it as well, obviously. So like yeah, one might be able to make the argument that Kanji's social link in particular is about toxic masculinity... But everything about Kanji outside of his social link events is definitely about his sexuality/homophobia. Like, Yosuke ain't bullying Kanji because he caught him knitting, or anything like that. It's because he thinks he's gay, and that's how it goes for a lot of their interactions for a while. Both those things are going on with Kanji at the same time, with the toxic masculinity mostly contained to the social link, and the homophobia more center screen outside of it, but they're both there, and so I don't get how this stuff is or has to be in conflict, or any of that.
Digimon Story: Cyber Sleuth is gunning for the Persona crowd, and has very questionable otaku-bait character designs, but it has canonical queer characters that it treats with respect.
Hell, two of the royal knights, who technically have no gender but are male-coded (all of the royal knights are heavily male-coded), identify as women in their human disguises.
Great OT, but I'm wondering why you didn't also call out the transphobic narrative behind Naoto's shadow dungeon? The goal of the dungeon is to stop Naoto from having a gender reassignment surgery. This post outlines further why that part of the game is so problematic and offensive for trans people. Possible to have it added in for comprehensiveness' sake?
- Status