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lupianwolf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,319
Think of almost any teen comedy—Can't Buy Me Love,Weird Science, American Pie. Picture pretty much all the novels by the mid-century literary vanguard—Philip Roth, John Updike, Richard Yates. Return to the whiny emo music I stupidly worshipped as a teenager at the turn of the century. Video games are no different, and open-world games in particular have a tendency to treat sex as purely transactional. Obviously, this must change—at any time, but especially during this moment of reckoning in the wake of the #MeToo movement.

But, like many open-world games before it, Witcher 3 falls into the trap of treating sex as a purely transactional activity. There are seven women the player can sleep with if they fulfill certain objectives, and the worst of these are purely transactional flings or one-night stands. Early in the game, the player meets a sorceress named Keira Meitz. The game requires you to work with her for a short while to progress the story, but afterward, you can opt into two additional sidequests helping this sorceress stranded far from home. There's a flirtatious back-and-forth between Keira and protagonist Geralt, but these quests are far from romantic. You explore a haunted cave side-by-side or venture alone to an island to rid a tower from a curse. Complete these simple adventures and bam, Keira invites you on a date and the game cues up a fully-rendered sex scene seemingly plucked from a steamy paperback romance.The rhetoric is simple: complete Keira's tasks, and you're entitled to sex.

One instance of transactional sex would be bad enough, but the game falls back on this tired trope over and over again. Enter a card tournament in a brothel, and you can sleep with Madame Sasha. Defeat Jutta An Dimun in a friendly bout of hand-to-hand combat, and she offers you sex. Pursue Syanna in the Blood and Wine DLC, and her final wish is banging Geralt while the two of them float through clouds. You can even get a doctor drunk at a wedding, but she will puke mid-coitus in a rowboat.

The concept of sex-as-reward is deeply rooted in our culture and the belief that men are entitled to sex and that if they spend enough time doing whatever it is they think a woman wants, they've earned a sexual reward. This sentiment is prevalent in so many video games, but it's obviously not just a video game issue. It's embedded in the fabric of our society.

http://www.firstpersonscholar.com/the-problem-with-transactional-sex-in-open-world-games/
 

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
I never thought of it that way, but it makes sense. It would be nice to see video games start treating sex as just something that two people into each other do, without the bartering/power play aspect of "earning" or "withholding" it and treating it as something more than it is (or rather more than it should be).
 

Lant_War

Classic Anus Game
The Fallen
Jul 14, 2018
23,539
I think they're overthinking it. The only reason why "complete quests = sex" is that it's pretty much the only way to implement it without it being a mandatory scene in the game.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
I think the problem is most games treat romance as just another objective or sidequest you can partake in, the only way to make sex non-transactional is if you stablish that the main character is already in a relationship with someone and they enjoy casual sex every now and then, but gamers like the fantasy of wooing partners so devs keep putting that in, and thus, the transactional nature of game sex.

To be fair, almost everything is transactional in gaming, your RPG character most of the time is not doing sidequest out of the kindness of their hearts, they do it for the rewards.

Ironically enough, Saint's Rows 4 has non transactional sex and the whole thing is framed as a mockery of Mass Effect, because instead of having to romance the crew of your ship you just go to them and go like "hey, wanna have sex?" and the say yes and that's it.
 

Amnixia

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Jan 25, 2018
10,411
I think they're overthinking it. The only reason why "complete quests = sex" is that it's pretty much the only way to implement it without it being a mandatory scene in the game.

Idk, I kinda feel like "complete quest = sex" might enforce a negative stereotype that sex is a reward for doing something and that you could be "owed" sex when in reality you never are.
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,247
I am also in the overthinking it camp.

Sex only seems like a reward because quests are the main way that a player engages with the game. It is pretty hard to sex or even romance seem natural when the only framework it can be implemented in is based entirely on task -> reward.

Witcher 3 does a reasonable job with what is has available to it.

Witcher 1 is 100% this and more. Sexual encounters in that game are gross.

Idk, I kinda feel like "complete quest = sex" might enforce a negative stereotype that sex is a reward for doing something and that you could be "owed" sex when in reality you never are.

Oh, you are right that it unintentionally does, but these are not 'sex' quests or even romance quests. These are normal quests that can lead to this. There really is not a good way to do it in a choice based-RPG without making it game-y and potentially problematic.
 

Derrick01

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,289
Pretty much all games struggle with this stuff. For years we would laugh at bioware games because all you had to do was select the upper right option and eventually by the end of the game the person sleeps with you. Even in other more complicated RPGs basically if you pick the option that agrees with the person enough times it's the most surefire way to sleep with them. It's always felt like to me that we were just nodding our head along while they said stuff and agreeing just to get to the end goal, which was sex.

Even with AC Odyssey which just came out, you can sleep with a ton of people with almost no effort. At worst you have to do a quest for them first.
 

Deleted member 36578

Dec 21, 2017
26,561
Recently, and call me a prude if you must, but the sex in Assassin's Creed Odessey is really off putting. I see it as really juvenile and out of place. I'd rather it not be in the game at all.
 

catswaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,797
I really wonder how you "theyre overthinking it" people relate to media in general. If there's such a thing as "overthinking" a piece, does that mean there's one Correct way of interpreting media, and everything else is too much or too little?

Is "overthinking" automatically invalid?
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,247
I really wonder how you "theyre overthinking it" people relate to media in general. If there's such a thing as "overthinking" a piece, does that mean there's one Correct way of interpreting media, and everything else is too much or too little?

Is "overthinking" automatically invalid?

I dunno about anyone else, but I am using it as shorthand for 'they are technically right, but the issue is neither intentional nor easy to address in an RPG.'

I would like to think that if we thought their reasoning was entirey invalid, we--at least I--would say so.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
It goes broader than that, since gamifying, eve lightly, character development and development between characters (romantic or otherwise) risks making it seem contrived or inconsequential to the overall story.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
I think it's very difficult for the sex not to seem transactional when everything in an open-world game is transactional by the nature of thw game's overall design being mission / task based.

I wouldn't argue then that the sex is transactional, but the game's design; because there's no real way to place sex between the player character and any NPC without it seeming so because your sex cutscene will always be bookended by the completion of a quest or mission.

As I can see it, the only solution is to remove the sex entirely??
 

King Alamat

Member
Nov 22, 2017
8,111
Ironically enough, Saint's Rows 4 has non transactional sex and the whole thing is framed as a mockery of Mass Effect, because instead of having to romance the crew of your ship you just go to them and go like "hey, wanna have sex?" and the say yes and that's it.
Except for Keith David. He wants no part of that.
 
Oct 27, 2017
920
I think this issue is somewhat inherent to the medium. The way games are structured, how rigid they are, and how easy they are to see through makes it hard to escape feeling like romance options are just do "X" to get sex when you boil it down enough.
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,247
I think it's very difficult for the sex not to seem transactional when everything in an open-world game is transactional by the nature of thw game's overall design being mission / task based.

I wouldn't argue then that the sex is transactional, but the game's design; because there's no real way to place sex between the player character and any NPC without it seeming so because your sex cutscene will always be bookended by the completion of a quest or mission.

As I can see it, the only solution is to remove the sex entirely??

Or make it something beyond the player's control.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
The article seems more so like him complaining about how lowbrow The Witcher 3's handling of sex is, while vestigially having attached to it this conceit of "sex-as-a-reward", as a way to make the article sound more than the flaccid critique that it really is. At the very least, he does a very poor job of actually tackling the sex-as-a-reward topic.

People like sex outside of the realm of romance too, as just a way to have fun, or through sheer passion. For a lot of the relations in TW3, that's exactly what they seek to accomplish. Also, I feel like the actual storytelling encompassing these "transactional" RPG mechanics like quests and dialogue systems is what actually justifies them having sex, and he completely glosses over this.
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
So there are a few sexual encounters in Witcher 3 like that but at the same time I think the game excels at illustrating the relationship between Geralt and Yennifer in particular.
 

Zen Hero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,628
I think a lot of games suffer from this. Take the Persona games, for example, where getting a girlfriend is treated almost as an inevitability, and the player merely selects among the choices (or selects multiple).

I think it's a difficult problem to resolve because, in the game's world, the player is the only one who has agency (I guess we are only taking about single player games here). Anything in the world only responds to the player, be that sex or otherwise.

One strategy is to write a natural romance into the core of the game's plot, taking away agency from the player, and just making it about the character. However not all games go for that kind of storytelling, instead preferring to tell the story through the player's actions. I think those kinds of games will have to put in the extra effort and use smart writing to make sex seem natural rather than transactional.
 

Deleted member 5167

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,114
Sleeping Dogs is a particularly egregious example of this.
You flirt with Emma Stone, go on a few dates, get your "I just had sex!" perk, and then the game literally vanishes her never to be heard from again.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
Games are still just games and many action games are power fantasies, even Witcher 3 to some extent. Sex sells and people like it, it's simple enough imo.

But yes, they can make it more of a thing where the player just gets to know an NPC and the reward is the tease of knowing that inside of the fiction your character and another man or woman had sex.
 

Proof

Member
Oct 3, 2018
31
I really wonder how you "theyre overthinking it" people relate to media in general. If there's such a thing as "overthinking" a piece, does that mean there's one Correct way of interpreting media, and everything else is too much or too little?

Is "overthinking" automatically invalid?

My two cents is that the argument made here is just a rudimentary example of making a mountain out of a mole-hill. So, yes I would argue that it isn't really subjective - there really are interpretations of media that are "too much".

One random example is that I remember reading some crazy article that was attempting to shed light on all the ways that Disney and other children's movies are indoctrinating children. Do I believe that there is some modicum of truth in what they are trying to say? Sure, there could be - but chances are equally or probably more likely that they're just "overthinking" it.
 

ZealousD

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,303
People love waifus and being able to romance in games, and sex is just one type of clear marker for when the romance is completed.

Look at the success of games like the newer fire emblem games. Those games don't even have explicit sex, but people love picking partners. The reward instead is children.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,259
Wouldn't the opposite be weird too? Randomly having sex with one of several NPCs of your choice based on nothing but wanting it?

I think the idea with quests is that you're building some kind of rapport with the NPC. Though I guess there are a lot of variables too, especially the player character's familiarity with the NPCs in question.

I dunno, it's an odd topic but I see what they are getting at for sure.
 

Cap G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,488
All sex in games requires the player's input on order to reach it, I can't think of a way for sex to not be interpreted as transactional in the medium so long as the player is inhabiting the role of one of the characters.
 

Rayman not Ray

Self-requested ban
Banned
Feb 27, 2018
1,486
The article makes a good point and the antitode would be depictions of sex and romantic relationships that at all reflect reality.

It sort of makes me wonder when the last time was that I played a game where there was a romantic couple with believable sexual chemistry. It's a problem in movies, too, though it's worse in games because of the more explicit power fantasy element.

I'm drawing a total blank.
 

Rival

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
385
Midlands
Overreacting. Sex can and will occur in many different ways for many different reasons. Theres no rules or guidlines for how it should "naturally"occur. Sometimes it really does feel like a transaction (sometimes it might be)
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,744
Hey, I wrote about this a few years ago, too. Witcher 3 seemingly put this on a lot of people's minds. https://www.pastemagazine.com/artic...ck-up-artists-the-monotonous-sex-life-of.html

I feel like even if the answer is "There's no good way to do it," that does not absolve how weird it can be to have guides on how to 100% guarantee a conversation ends in fucking.

I don't disagree that it's weird, but what is the alternative? No sex in games? Or the sex is random?

At the end of the day, it's a programmed game. If sex is a possible outcome, then there are going to be ways to use the game system to get sex. I'm not sure making it out of the player's control would be a better solution, so what is the alternative people are proposing?
 

Bjones

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,622
I never thought of it that way, but it makes sense. It would be nice to see video games start treating sex as just something that two people into each other do, without the bartering/power play aspect of "earning" or "withholding" it and treating it as something more than it is (or rather more than it should be).

Ac Odyssey kind of does this. There were two quest that you can have sex with someone not because of doing something for them but just because also. You don't have to.
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
It's really annoying how a lot of games do it, instead of treating them like an actual character it's almost like a "goal" to do the deed and then that's your payoff and they largely go away.

Playing through AC: Odyssey it is one of the biggest disappointments, you can choose to romance a few characters and (so far at least) they are pretty much throw away characters that go away once their story is done. One you can even "recruit" to your ship and after you do this she's treated as nothing more then a generic npc, you don't talk to her anymore or anything, it just comes off as weird.

One of the only games I felt did it decently was Mass Effect, they put so much time into their characters and leading up to that point there was still plenty after that, their characters didn't just magically "vanish" or anything, they follow through and continue to tell a story with that character and account for the romance if you choose it.
 

mindsale

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,911
Odyssey is tremendously guilty of this. Half the times I fetch some maguffin I usually wind up having my character engage in sex to cut a corner of the fetch quest.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
Wouldn't the opposite be weird too? Randomly having sex with one of several NPCs of your choice based on nothing but wanting it?

I think the idea with quests is that you're building some kind of rapport with the NPC. Though I guess there are a lot of variables too, especially the player character's familiarity with the NPCs in question.

I dunno, it's an odd topic but I see what they are getting at for sure.

The point is that Romancing characters in these games put Sex as the end game of these "romance" quests, hell, Mass Effect always puts the sex scene literally before the final mission, making it just a reward for maxing out someone's romance bar.

A solution would be that the act of romancing the character and the associated quests with it don't END in sex, you could easily make a romance option have much more to do, quests to give even after you get to the point where they had sex with you,it wouldn't be a solution, but it would lessen the flaw.
 

PeskyToaster

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,312
That's because at the end of the day, it's still a computer program and it will always be a 1 or 0. Have sex or not have sex. No matter how much they try to hide it, under the hood you'll always be checking enough boxes to flip the romance switch from 0 to 1.
 

Rayman not Ray

Self-requested ban
Banned
Feb 27, 2018
1,486
I don't disagree that it's weird, but what is the alternative? No sex in games? Or the sex is random?

At the end of the day, it's a programmed game. If sex is a possible outcome, then there are going to be ways to use the game system to get sex. I'm not sure making it out of the player's control would be a better solution, so what is the alternative people are proposing?

How about make it a result of choices the player makes without making it a clear "say the right things and you get to bang?" Those would actually be far more meaningful choices. It would be much harder to pull off, though, as you would need well developed characters, which are rare enough as it is.
 

Bjones

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,622
Odyssey is tremendously guilty of this. Half the times I fetch some maguffin I usually wind up having my character engage in sex to cut a corner of the fetch quest.

But it's not quests to have sex. It's completely optional. It's never treated as a " goal " to the characters or a reward.
 

UF_C

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,346
The article makes a good point and the antitode would be depictions of sex and romantic relationships that at all reflect reality.

It sort of makes me wonder when the last time was that I played a game where there was a romantic couple with believable sexual chemistry. It's a problem in movies, too, though it's worse in games because of the more explicit power fantasy element.

I'm drawing a total blank.
I think the beginning of the Witcher 3 is a pretty believable, non-transactional relationship. They don't have sex in that scene, persay but the chemistry and desire they both have goes far beyond Geralt deserving sex because he checked all the boxes.

But later in the game the relationship(s) do become all transactional.
 

Driver

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,053
Southern California
But, like many open-world games before it, Witcher 3 falls into the trap of treating sex as a purely transactional activity. There are seven women the player can sleep with if they fulfill certain objectives, and the worst of these are purely transactional flings or one-night stands. Early in the game, the player meets a sorceress named Keira Meitz. The game requires you to work with her for a short while to progress the story, but afterward, you can opt into two additional sidequests helping this sorceress stranded far from home. There's a flirtatious back-and-forth between Keira and protagonist Geralt, but these quests are far from romantic. You explore a haunted cave side-by-side or venture alone to an island to rid a tower from a curse. Complete these simple adventures and bam, Keira invites you on a date and the game cues up a fully-rendered sex scene seemingly plucked from a steamy paperback romance.The rhetoric is simple: complete Keira's tasks, and you're entitled to sex.

Jesus Christ, there are 7 women you can sleep with in the Witcher 3? I only got to 3 of em. I feel the need to to boot this game up again.
 

ohitsluca

Member
Oct 29, 2017
730
There is also transactional murder in video games... That's how games are designed. Do this thing, get a reward. I think everyone that plays a game understands that is the structure of the game, and not some lesson to apply to their own lives. Otherwise there would be a lot more gamer-turned-hitmen running around. I think this article is insulting the intelligence of the readers/players honestly
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,744
How about make it a result of choices the player makes without making it a clear "say the right things and you get to bang?" Those would actually be far more meaningful choices. It would be much harder to pull off, though, as you would need well developed characters, which are rare enough as it is.

But the post I was responding to was talking about a guide being used. The scenario you propose could also be done with a guide. You're suggesting more complexity, but it's still just a series of inputs.
 

Rayman not Ray

Self-requested ban
Banned
Feb 27, 2018
1,486
I think the beginning of the Witcher 3 is a pretty believable, non-transactional relationship. They don't have sex in that scene, persay but the chemistry and desire they both have goes far beyond Geralt deserving sex because he checked all the boxes.

But later in the game the relationship(s) do become all transactional.

The classic tension in games between telling a good story, and being a fun power fantasy. I'd prefer more of the former, but what can you do.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,259
The point is that Romancing characters in these games put Sex as the end game of these "romance" quests, hell, Mass Effect always puts the sex scene literally before the final mission, making it just a reward for maxing out someone's romance bar.

A solution would be that the act of romancing the character and the associated quests with it don't END in sex, you could easily make a romance option have much more to do, quests to give even after you get to the point where they had sex with you,it wouldn't be a solution, but it would lessen the flaw.
I see your point, definitely makes sense when you put it that way. Romance is a lot more complicated than the objective of sex as the end game, and sex isn't necessarily attached to romance either.