The Promised Neverland |OT| Minerva's Den

A.J.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,841
I was indeed a good back and forth between Emma and Norman. Norman's pragmatism was especially sobering.
 

Dany1899

Member
Dec 23, 2017
1,063
This chapter was key. Looks like Ray and Norman’s roles are definitely reversed comparing to the first arc.

I really wonder if Norman got over his love for Emma. That was his main drive to fulfill her request of finding a way to save everyone.
I noticed the same, now Ray supports Emma while Normal is the opposite character, the experience in the new Lambda farm must have been tramatizing for him. Besides, even though what he says it's perfectly natural and understandable, I don't know why I can't completely support his ideas - either it's because of Emma, or because there is such a dissonance with the previous Norman, much more evident for me who basically started tor ead the manga last month.
 

NHarmonic.

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
4,173
I noticed the same, now Ray supports Emma while Normal is the opposite character, the experience in the new Lambda farm must have been tramatizing for him. Besides, even though what he says it's perfectly natural and understandable, I don't know why I can't completely support his ideas - either it's because of Emma, or because there is such a dissonance with the previous Norman, much more evident for me who basically started tor ead the manga last month.
He’s become too cold, exactly like Ray at the beginning. Feels like Emma’s influence is what makes the characters warmer and hopeful.
 

Kreed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,357
Besides, even though what he says it's perfectly natural and understandable, I don't know why I can't completely support his ideas - either it's because of Emma, or because there is such a dissonance with the previous Norman, much more evident for me who basically started tor ead the manga last month.
It's Emma for me since she's the "main" protagonist. I'm waiting for Emma to either find a way to "fix" Norman's plan or for her to go against him.
 

Brazil

The Dude of Prophecy
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
8,309
São Paulo, Brazil
I love it so much that people are annoyed by Emma. Weebs out there have such a hard time with characters that don't do exactly what they want them to do. I've seen people literally whine about how "her writing is wrong" now.

Great chapter.
 

A.J.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,841
I love it so much that people are annoyed by Emma. Weebs out there have such a hard time with characters that don't do exactly what they want them to do. I've seen people literally whine about how "her writing is wrong" now.

Great chapter.
Those people are pretty dumb then because it's been in line with how she's been written.
 

silenttype01

Member
Nov 14, 2017
101
Is there an official explanation? Is this some trick that appears often in Japanese obstacle course style shows (like Ninja Warrior) that they didn't feel the need to explain?
I'm inclined to say yes. American Ninja Warrior has an obstacle where you run on a slanted wall and jump off the wall to a rope to land at the end of the obstacle.
 

alexi52

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,675
People are mad at Emma this chapter but I'm on her side in this, if there's a way to avoid Genocide which now we now there is, then it's an easy choice
 

Lotus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
Those people are pretty dumb then because it's been in line with how she's been written.
I can't even get mad because not only is it completely within character, but she's actively listening to both Norman and Ray's firm counterarguments, as opposed to just being stubborn and brushing them off or something. Also genocide is bad guys
 
Dec 28, 2018
899
It’s been a while since I last read the arc but if I’m remembering correctly in Goldy Pond Emma tried to talk to Lewis out of having to fight and kill one another. And if Emma was willing to spare Lewis even after all the shit he did I don’t get why some people think she’d be fine with the deaths of innocent demons. Anyways I find the current conflict interesting and I would find it boring if Emma just agreed to everything Norman said and it would also be out of character for her as well.
 

TheTyrant

Member
Nov 27, 2018
812
I finally reached chapter 100 and what a ride it has been. I wasn't feeling the Goldy Pond stuff as much as I had hoped, but it was still pretty good. Really excited to get caught up with everyone. Happy to see that the boy Phil aka the second best character in the series after Emma is back yo and this chapter was great. Nearly thought the whole chapter was just gonna be his inner monologue, but sadly not.
 
Dec 28, 2018
899
I finally reached chapter 100 and what a ride it has been. I wasn't feeling the Goldy Pond stuff as much as I had hoped, but it was still pretty good. Really excited to get caught up with everyone. Happy to see that the boy Phil aka the second best character in the series after Emma is back yo and this chapter was great. Nearly thought the whole chapter was just gonna be his inner monologue, but sadly not.
Used to be indifferent towards Phil up until chapter 100 which was the chapter that finally got me to jump onto the Phil bandwagon. And yeah I feel the same way about the Goldy Pond Arc that it was good but I wasn’t all that crazy about it. And strap yourself in man because your about to go on a wild ride.
 

Thatonedice1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,854
Working on that also.
It’s been a while since I last read the arc but if I’m remembering correctly in Goldy Pond Emma tried to talk to Lewis out of having to fight and kill one another. And if Emma was willing to spare Lewis even after all the shit he did I don’t get why some people think she’d be fine with the deaths of innocent demons. Anyways I find the current conflict interesting and I would find it boring if Emma just agreed to everything Norman said and it would also be out of character for her as well.
I just binge read the series and you are right about her trying to talk Lewis down. If people think Emma is gonna be ok with killing literally all the demons then they seriously haven't been paying attention since the beginning of the series. Girl has always said she wants to save everyone, no matter what. So the arguments happening right now are in line with her character. I'm personally enjoying this discussion and I hope they can come to some sort of compromise and the author doesn't turn Norman into a dick who will just ignore Emma's feelings.
 
Dec 28, 2018
899
I just binge read the series and you are right about her trying to talk Lewis down. If people think Emma is gonna be ok with killing literally all the demons then they seriously haven't been paying attention since the beginning of the series. Girl has always said she wants to save everyone, no matter what. So the arguments happening right now are in line with her character. I'm personally enjoying this discussion and I hope they can come to some sort of compromise and the author doesn't turn Norman into a dick who will just ignore Emma's feelings.
Yup it’s why some of the comments calling her childish and naive and other various things have started to annoy me more now. Feel like those people either forgot or are ignoring that aspect of her. The discussion here has been good but in other places not so much. And even though Norman is acting a bit cold I don’t think he’ll ever go full on dick mode. Or turn into a villain like some people have said.
 

MCD

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,587
I hope my boy Ray can find a third option. We need a middle ground here.
 
Dec 28, 2018
899
So instead of sleeping like I should be I foolishly decided to read through some other forum threads on the latest chapter and boy was that a mistake. The amount of people questioning her intelligence, telling her to shut up, calling her a bitch, and so on is just very aggravating and appalling. Like shit some of those comments made in those other threads made DTL posts here look good in comparison. Christ and earlier this week I thought the TPN fandom was still good but I was clearly wrong. And the petty part of me wants Norman’s plan to fail and Emma to succeed just to spite these assholes. Apologies for the rant it’s just the rise in these kind of comments recently has really started to get on my nerves.
 

Mendrox

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,784
I don't see any bad reactions to this chapter on the Neverland subreddit, but I don't visit sites like MAL so... Chapter was great. The author does a great job with the characters.

Edit: I realized that by reading this chapter and thinking "Okay Norman has a point...Oh Emmas sounds good too, but now Norman counters too..."
 

Ionitron

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
184
I don’t think Emma is stupid or anything and her dialogue this chapter is completely in character, but I don’t think Norman is the wrong at all for what he’s been saying either. Obviously genocide is really bad but there really isn’t anything stopping the demons from eating humans if they didn’t try to target all of them. It’s hard to say. Norman was stone cold but his arguments were really valid.

The interesting thing is that prior to the musica thing he wasn’t really advocating killing them necessarily, they were just going to “devolve” lol- or did he specifically say “kill” and I missed that?

I do love the Ray/Norman role reversal. Honestly I feel pretty bad for Norman :/

And yeah at the poster above, I loved the dialogue in this chapter. Everything was reasonable. Easily one of my favorite chapters so far.
 

Lotus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
So instead of sleeping like I should be I foolishly decided to read through some other forum threads on the latest chapter and boy was that a mistake. The amount of people questioning her intelligence, telling her to shut up, calling her a bitch, and so on is just very aggravating and appalling. Like shit some of those comments made in those other threads made DTL posts here look good in comparison. Christ and earlier this week I thought the TPN fandom was still good but I was clearly wrong. And the petty part of me wants Norman’s plan to fail and Emma to succeed just to spite these assholes. Apologies for the rant it’s just the rise in these kind of comments recently has really started to get on my nerves.
Sometimes I wonder what the reception to Emma being the more emotional one of the trio would be like if she was a boy. Then I remember that toxic masculinity is a thing, so probably wouldn't be much better lol
 
Dec 28, 2018
899
Sometimes I wonder what the reception to Emma being the more emotional one of the trio would be like if she was a boy. Then I remember that toxic masculinity is a thing, so probably wouldn't be much better lol
I’d imagine she’d get get less shit and sexist comments thrown her way if she was a guy. But yeah toxic masculinity is a thing and people would probably just call Emma a pussy instead and it would probably still be bad. It is probably just a minority of people saying that stuff but considering how vulgar and sexist some of the comments were it just riled me up man.
I don't see any bad reactions to this chapter on the Neverland subreddit, but I don't visit sites like MAL so... Chapter was great. The author does a great job with the characters.

Edit: I realized that by reading this chapter and thinking "Okay Norman has a point...Oh Emmas sounds good too, but now Norman counters too..."
TPN subreddit was fine it’s just one of the other threads I decided to look at was the manga Reddit thread on the chapter and it was a dumpster fire.
 

A.J.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,841
It's not like saving everyone is uncommon among male protagonists either. It's probably just sexism.
 

alexi52

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,675
I was originally against Emma in this situation but that's because I didn't want the resolution to come out of nowhere like in TG, the fact that there's always been a way to resolve all this and it's the nobles who denied it, it makes us have one clear villain in the series which is good in this situation because I can see Norman and Emma coming to a middle groundwhere there is going to be a war but it's not going to be a genocide, the people getting mad at Emma this chapter are the worst kinds of edgelords, Emma is getting emotional because she is shown a clear way to avoid genocide and she's fighting for it, because you're supposed to avoid killing millions of Innocents.
Sometimes I wonder what the reception to Emma being the more emotional one of the trio would be like if she was a boy. Then I remember that toxic masculinity is a thing, so probably wouldn't be much better lol
It would be way worse, you'd have more people calling male Emma a generic shounen protagonist and how this series would be better with just Norman and Ray, when a girl in manga is emotional they just pass it off as she's the girl of this series, when a male character has the same emotions and position they call him a crybaby on a bitch, kind of like how the more toxic part of the MHA fandom treats Deku
 
Dec 28, 2018
899
I was originally against Emma in this situation but that's because I didn't want the resolution to come out of nowhere like in TG, the fact that there's always been a way to resolve all this and it's the nobles who denied it, it makes us have one clear villain in the series which is good in this situation because I can see Norman and Emma coming to a middle groundwhere there is going to be a war but it's not going to be a genocide, the people getting mad at Emma this chapter are the worst kinds of edgelords, Emma is getting emotional because she is shown a clear way to avoid genocide and she's fighting for it, because you're supposed to avoid killing millions of Innocents.

It would be way worse, you'd have more people calling male Emma a generic shounen protagonist and how this series would be better with just Norman and Ray, when a girl in manga is emotional they just pass it off as she's the girl of this series, when a male character has the same emotions and position they call him a crybaby on a bitch, kind of like how the more toxic part of the MHA fandom treats Deku
Dropped TG a while back but I'm guessing ghouls and humans somehow find a way to co exist? And like I can't blame people for being uneasy about Emma trying to find a way to co exist with the demons at first cause the solution to such an issue could end up being poorly handled. And I'll agree with what some people have been saying that we should have gotten some more chapters of Emma and the others in the demon town, so her inner conflict would have a bit more emotional weight to it. But regardless of that like I mentioned before it really does feel like people forget that Emma has never been one to go full on doom guy on the demons as seen with her and Lewis. So at this point in time I have no clue how well or poorly the situation will be handled but I have enough faith in the mangaka that they'll handle it well. And while I might not be the biggest fan of Deku now a days the number of people who still shit on him in the year of 2019 for being a cry baby is annoying.
 

alexi52

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,675
Dropped TG a while back but I'm guessing ghouls and humans somehow find a way to co exist?
Spoiler for how TG Re ends but
it
All happens at the literal final chapter with a Time skip saying they just found a way to make artificial meat for the ghouls, which I don't remember much hints of but that could be because I tried to block out those horrible last couple arcs it had from my mind

What I was afraid of was something similar happening with the demons, that Emma just discovers a way for them to survive without eating humans but what they're doing is making it so there was already a way for them to survive without eating humans but it was kept secret with good reasons, which is much better than the former
 
Dec 28, 2018
899
Spoiler for how TG Re ends but
it
All happens at the literal final chapter with a Time skip saying they just found a way to make artificial meat for the ghouls, which I don't remember much hints of but that could be because I tried to block out those horrible last couple arcs it had from my mind

What I was afraid of was something similar happening with the demons, that Emma just discovers a way for them to survive without eating humans but what they're doing is making it so there was already a way for them to survive without eating humans but it was kept secret with good reasons, which is much better than the former
Jeez that’s a pretty lazy and poor way to resolve that whole ordeal, glad I dropped the series when I did.
 

Dany1899

Member
Dec 23, 2017
1,063
Emma is the central character of all the story in my opinion. The children escaped from the farm because she didn't surrender after Norman's expedition and thanks to the plan made by Norman, who wanted to save everyone despite it seemed impossible because he loved Emma; Ray survived, when he wanted to burn himself with Grace Field, thanks to Emma. Then it was thanks to Emma who tried to be friend with Musica that they got te first information about the Seven Walls (and I think that encounter will be fundamental in the ending of the story); then she strongly contributed to the liberation of Goldy Pond.
I think she's one of the best female main "central" characters of shonen manga (with central I mwan the most relavant character of the story, and undoubdtedly she is), very well characterizes. It's for this reason that despite Norman is right I don't feel to agree with him. And Emma isn't at all contradictory with what she did in the story. She killed demons and contributed to the deaths of several of them during the Goldy Pond arc, but that's completely different. One thing is kill demons to survive and which loves to ear humans, another thing is to exterminate a race, including the demon children (which are showed when Emma shows her propositions to Norman) which basically eat humans to survive, like humans eat animals to survive. I'm sure that at the end a complete genocide won't be made and I'm really interested in reading how a sort of compromise will be reached; I think it will involve Musica's blood, which could be the key for the new promise - after all it would be perfect for everyone, because demons would not need anymore to eat humans to survive. They could continue to hunt them because it's something they enjoy however, but this aspect could be part of the new promise content in some way.

Then, about Norman, I don't know if it was discussed, but to me it seems much older phisically (and mentally) than Emma and Ray. I think his different behaviour is caused by the experiments in Lambda.
 
Dec 28, 2018
899
Emma is the central character of all the story in my opinion. The children escaped from the farm because she didn't surrender after Norman's expedition and thanks to the plan made by Norman, who wanted to save everyone despite it seemed impossible because he loved Emma; Ray survived, when he wanted to burn himself with Grace Field, thanks to Emma. Then it was thanks to Emma who tried to be friend with Musica that they got te first information about the Seven Walls (and I think that encounter will be fundamental in the ending of the story); then she strongly contributed to the liberation of Goldy Pond.
I think she's one of the best female main "central" characters of shonen manga (with central I mwan the most relavant character of the story, and undoubdtedly she is), very well characterizes. It's for this reason that despite Norman is right I don't feel to agree with him. And Emma isn't at all contradictory with what she did in the story. She killed demons and contributed to the deaths of several of them during the Goldy Pond arc, but that's completely different. One thing is kill demons to survive and which loves to ear humans, another thing is to exterminate a race, including the demon children (which are showed when Emma shows her propositions to Norman) which basically eat humans to survive, like humans eat animals to survive. I'm sure that at the end a complete genocide won't be made and I'm really interested in reading how a sort of compromise will be reached; I think it will involve Musica's blood, which could be the key for the new promise - after all it would be perfect for everyone, because demons would not need anymore to eat humans to survive. They could continue to hunt them because it's something they enjoy however, but this aspect could be part of the new promise content in some way.

Then, about Norman, I don't know if it was discussed, but to me it seems much older phisically (and mentally) than Emma and Ray. I think his different behaviour is caused by the experiments in Lambda.
Well said man, and I’d argue that Emma is the best female character in all of Shonen Jump. Though the bar for female characters in jump was never practically high. Will give a shoutout to Act Age and Black Clover which also handle their female casts well, and I hear World Trigger is also good in that regard. And on Norman he could be that way because of what happened to him at Lambda or it’s just that puberty hit him like a truck. Do hope we get some chapters focused on Lambda some day.
 

A.J.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,841
Well said man, and I’d argue that Emma is the best female character in all of Shonen Jump. Though the bar for female characters in jump was never practically high. Will give a shoutout to Act Age and Black Clover which also handle their female casts well, and I hear World Trigger is also good in that regard. And on Norman he could be that way because of what happened to him at Lambda or it’s just that puberty hit him like a truck. Do hope we get some chapters focused on Lambda some day.
Eh, Black Clover does suffer from objectifying its female cast however.
 
Dec 28, 2018
899
Eh, Black Clover does suffer from objectifying its female cast however.
By no means do I think the female cast of Black Clover is perfect because yeah it does have its fair share of issues but compared to other manga/anime out there I find it to be one of the better ones, mainly because of Noelle . TPN is the current king or should I say queen in that regard.
 
Dec 28, 2018
899

A.J.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,841
By no means do I think the female cast of Black Clover is perfect because yeah it does have its fair share of issues but compared to other manga/anime out there I find it to be one of the better ones, mainly because of Noelle . TPN is the current king or should I say queen in that regard.
I know you said you were going to read it already, but I'm going to reiterate that World Trigger is very good on this end.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,606
So instead of sleeping like I should be I foolishly decided to read through some other forum threads on the latest chapter and boy was that a mistake. The amount of people questioning her intelligence, telling her to shut up, calling her a *****, and so on is just very aggravating and appalling. Like shit some of those comments made in those other threads made DTL posts here look good in comparison. Christ and earlier this week I thought the TPN fandom was still good but I was clearly wrong. And the petty part of me wants Norman’s plan to fail and Emma to succeed just to spite these ********. Apologies for the rant it’s just the rise in these kind of comments recently has really started to get on my nerves.
As I've stated, Emma's character has always needed improvement, or to simply just be removed from the plot. Many fans have long since held this view, so it seems reactions have simply been more bitter due to the protracted delay in dealing with Emma in any type of manner to correct and fix, or to delete her.

The newest episode even highlights the aggravating flaws in her character, like diving on norman to ruin everything then and there in front of mom, pointless and ridiculous.

I wonder if Emma was just an editor suggestion at the early stage or a character created at the eleventh hour, or drastically altered after editor input as there are things about her that really have been problematic since the start.

I hope fans do entire story rewrites changing her or simply without her.
 
Dec 28, 2018
899
I know you said you were going to read it already, but I'm going to reiterate that World Trigger is very good on this end.
Been busy with some other stuff but I do plan on binge reading it soon enough.
Would Nami from OP count as the main female? If so then that's my pick
Hmm I’d say she is so it counts. Will say her lack of fights and being used more fan service has soured my opinion of her but she’s still pretty good character.
As I've stated, Emma's character has always needed improvement, or to simply just be removed from the plot. Many fans have long since held this view, so it seems reactions have simply been more bitter due to the protracted delay in dealing with Emma in any type of manner to correct and fix, or to delete her.

The newest episode even highlights the aggravating flaws in her character, like diving on norman to ruin everything then and there in front of mom, pointless and ridiculous.

I wonder if Emma was just an editor suggestion at the early stage or a character created at the eleventh hour, or drastically altered after editor input as there are things about her that really have been problematic since the start.

I hope fans do entire story rewrites changing her or simply without her.
I swear just as I start to feel bad for ranting against you ya go and say dumb shit like this. First of all not a single person besides you as ever asked for her to be removed from the story. Second of all there’s nothing wrong with a character having flaws man if she didn’t have any she’d be a boring character. And thirdly I doubt she was a late or early editor suggestion, hell I think there’s an interview somewhere stating why the mangaka made Emma a girl. And what pray tell is exactly problematic about her? Her being a girl instead of a boy? And bruh a TPN without Emma would suck ass and I doubt any changes these fans would make to her would ever appease the raging hate boner you have for her.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
11,606
I swear just as I start to feel bad for ranting against you ya go and say dumb shit like this. First of all not a single person besides you as ever asked for her to be removed from the story. Second of all there’s nothing wrong with a character having flaws man if she didn’t have any she’d be a boring character. And thirdly I doubt she was a late or early editor suggestion, hell I think there’s an interview somewhere stating why the mangaka made Emma a girl. And what pray tell is exactly problematic about her? Her being a girl instead of a boy? And bruh a TPN without Emma would suck ass and I doubt any changes these fans would make to her would ever appease the raging hate boner you have for her.
She's irrational, impulsive, irresponsible, illogical, distracting, unreasonable and unrealistic, loud, believes in fairy tails, and honestly dull and unimportant. There's so many moments where if she were removed things would have gone smoother or been more exciting and so many wouldnt have put in danger.

Its great the writer has done Ray and Norman so strongly that even with a weak link like Emma in the reins, the story can remain followable week after week.
 

alexi52

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,675
She's irrational, impulsive, irresponsible, illogical, distracting, unreasonable and unrealistic, loud, believes in fairy tails,
You named a bunch of realistic human traits and then called her unrealistic, really out of the main three or she's the one that asked the most like an actual kid, this would be a completely different story without Emma because for one see what's the main one pushing to try to save everyone in the orphanage, she also talked Ray down from killing himself, really without her everyone might have died already, there was nothing wrong with what she did last episode or this chapter
 
Dec 28, 2018
899
She's irrational, impulsive, irresponsible, illogical, distracting, unreasonable and unrealistic, loud, believes in fairy tails, and honestly dull and unimportant. There's so many moments where if she were removed things would have gone smoother or been more exciting and so many wouldnt have put in danger.

Its great the writer has done Ray and Norman so strongly that even with a weak link like Emma in the reins, the story can remain followable week after week.
The main character of the story is unimportant? Sure whatever you say buddy.
.

And ya know there's a difference between a poorly written character and a character that has flaws man, though I know it's fruitless to even argue that with you of all people. And I have said it so many freaking times now at this point but screw I'll say it once more, if Emma was a guy you would be praising them non stop and all the problems you just listed would be positives instead of negatives and as well as that you'd be kissing their ass all the way to the fucking moon like you do with every other male character you stan for. Fuck me I think I'm done discussing anything Emma related with you anymore it's just not worth it.
 

NHarmonic.

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
4,173
She's irrational, impulsive, irresponsible, illogical, distracting, unreasonable and unrealistic, loud, believes in fairy tails, and honestly dull and unimportant. There's so many moments where if she were removed things would have gone smoother or been more exciting and so many wouldnt have put in danger.

Its great the writer has done Ray and Norman so strongly that even with a weak link like Emma in the reins, the story can remain followable week after week.
And even with all the shit you said, without Emma, this manga has no soul. It’s the fact that she shows these human emotions what actually makes it believable at all.

And thank god there’s a character that’s against genocide of sentient beings.

Hope all this heavy criticism with Emma isn’t some kind of hidden misoginy, because it becomes glaringly obvious when you ignore the crap that is shokugeki no soma’s awful developments and yet you heavily crush this manga’s MC.l for far less.