The Promised Neverland |OT| Minerva's Den

Oct 25, 2017
11,843
And even with all the shit you said, without Emma, this manga has no soul. It’s the fact that she shows these human emotions what actually makes it believable at all.

And thank god there’s a character that’s against genocide of sentient beings.

Hope all this heavy criticism with Emma isn’t some kind of hidden misoginy, because it becomes glaringly obvious when you ignore the crap that is shokugeki no soma’s awful developments and yet you heavily crush this manga’s MC.l for far less.
It's just Emma. Other characters like Mom/Isabelle are actually up there for really well done antagonists in manga, the type that really makes you feel emotions and almost care about them. And krone deserves some commendations and kudos.
 

TheTyrant

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Nov 27, 2018
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Used to be indifferent towards Phil up until chapter 100 which was the chapter that finally got me to jump onto the Phil bandwagon. And yeah I feel the same way about the Goldy Pond Arc that it was good but I wasn’t all that crazy about it. And strap yourself in man because your about to go on a wild ride.
Can't wait. Probably will be caught up in time for next weeks chapter
 

FluxWaveZ

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Oct 25, 2017
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And thank god there’s a character that’s against genocide of sentient beings.
These sentient beings are eating us and we've had no examples of ones who really show sympathy for humanity other than those two who have hinted they'd be hunting them down and eating them if their own circumstances were different.

Screw 'em.
 

CriticalThinker?

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These sentient beings are eating us and we've had no examples of ones who really show sympathy for humanity other than those two who have hinted they'd be hunting them down and eating them if their own circumstances were different.

Screw 'em.
Only Sonju wanted to hunt the humans again not Mujika. And like I said we probably should have spent some more time in the demon town to see more of the better side of the demons, but regardless of that I don’t think every single demon is a total scumbag that deserves to die.
 

FluxWaveZ

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Oct 25, 2017
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Only Sonju wanted to hunt the humans again not Mujika. And like I said we probably should have spent some more time in the demon town to see more of the better side of the demons, but regardless of that I don’t think every single demon is a total scumbag that deserves to die.
That's true, I forgot that it was one of them who was on board with it.

But that's giving the benefit of the doubt. Of course, we've had a restricted window into the types of human-demons there are because the ones highlighted are those who are in direct conflict with the kids. So sure, we could see something different if we had a deeper look into their society, and we very well might later on to create sympathy for them as Emma's goal becomes a bigger part of the theme.

But so far, they represent an active and very real danger to humanity. The whole reason the farms were put in place was because of monsters initiating a war which killed people on the other side until they reached a truce to stop the carnage and give the monsters what they wanted.

They don't seem to care that they're eating sentient beings, torturing them, and perpetuating the cycle. Even if 10% of their population have sympathy, is that enough? They didn't start off human-like; they took it from us by eating us. Forcibly reverting them back to their natural state is whatever.
 

A.J.

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Oct 25, 2017
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It seems mostly the higher ups fault since they didn't want the solution solved with Mujika's blood
 

CriticalThinker?

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That's true, I forgot that it was one of them who was on board with it.

But that's giving the benefit of the doubt. Of course, we've had a restricted window into the types of human-demons there are because the ones highlighted are those who are in direct conflict with the kids. So sure, we could see something different if we had a deeper look into their society, and we very well might later on to create sympathy for them as Emma's goal becomes a bigger part of the theme.

But so far, they represent an active and very real danger to humanity. The whole reason the farms were put in place was because of monsters initiating a war which killed people on the other side until they reached a truce to stop the carnage and give the monsters what they wanted.

They don't seem to care that they're eating sentient beings, torturing them, and perpetuating the cycle. Even if 10% of their population have sympathy, is that enough? They didn't start off human-like; they took it from us by eating us. Forcibly reverting them back to their natural state is whatever.
Well to play devils advocate if it weren’t for the demon elite that wiped out Mujika’s clan more demons wouldn’t need to eat human meat to survive. Now that doesn’t mean some demons would stop eating human meat or hunting them but I think it wouldn’t be bad as it is now in the story. Like I don’t think all demons are pure sadistic monsters that want to eat humans for the hell of it. I’d say the issue lies with the demon elite more than the regular demons, they are the ones who want to keep the current system in place. I’d say most regular demons eat human meat just to survive not because they get sadistic joy out of it. To me at least it’s not a totally black and white situation. And like I don’t think there’s anything wrong with how you feel I guess for me it’s just that I don’t view mass genocide as the best option.
 

FluxWaveZ

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Oct 25, 2017
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It seems mostly the higher ups fault since they didn't want the solution solved with Mujika's blood
Well to play devils advocate if it weren’t for the demon elite that wiped out Mujika’s clan more demons wouldn’t need to eat human meat to survive. Now that doesn’t mean some demons would stop eating human meat or hunting them but I think it wouldn’t be bad as it is now in the story. Like I don’t think all demons are pure sadistic monsters that want to eat humans for the hell of it. I’d say the issue lies with the demon elite more than the regular demons, they are the ones who want to keep the current system in place. I’d say most regular demons eat human meat just to survive not because they get sadistic joy out of it. To me at least it’s not a totally black and white situation. And like I don’t think there’s anything wrong with how you feel I guess for me it’s just that I don’t view mass genocide as the best option.
Yes, the elites are to blame for how bad the situation's gotten. But I don't think things would be fine if simply the elites were taken care of and their hierarchy was overhauled, with monster Jesus granting everyone left her blood.

I do feel like a vast many of them would continue eating humans because they're delicious. Or would continue hunting/torturing humans because it's fun. They're the ultimate apex predator, and that'll never go away. As such, they'll always see humans as insignificant animals that they can control.

Even if many of the demons would, for whatever reason, become docile towards humans and let them roam free—in "their" world—after gaining a way to maintain their form without eating humans, it's not a possibility I would play around with in their situation right now at all.

Barring "reforging the promise" which is probably going to be the real outcome of it all, I would see no other way to go about things than what Norman is saying. His is the most rational solution, if you're human.

Edit: We got humans already killing other humans for nothing and looking down on them. We don't need a whole other, much more powerful form of "human" added to the mix. They've already shown that they have their own individuality and morals. A "bad" apple in their society would cause considerable harm to humans.
 
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CriticalThinker?

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Yes, the elites are to blame for how bad the situation's gotten. But I don't think things would be fine if simply the elites were taken care of and their hierarchy was overhauled, with monster Jesus granting everyone left her blood.

I do feel like a vast many of them would continue eating humans because they're delicious. Or would continue hunting/torturing humans because it's fun. They're the ultimate apex predator, and that'll never go away. As such, they'll always see humans as insignificant animals that they can control.

Even if many of the demons would, for whatever reason, become docile towards humans and let them roam free—in "their" world—after gaining a way to maintain their form without eating humans, it's not a possibility I would play around with in their situation right now at all.

Barring "reforging the promise" which is probably going to be the real outcome of it all, I would see no other way to go about things than what Norman is saying. His is the most rational solution, if you're human.
Not like I think the problem would be entirely fixed with Mujika’s blood either but I’d wager it would be a better overall outcome. And I won’t lie it is hard to argue against your point since yeah the series hasn’t done the best job of showing the demons in a situation where they aren’t trying to hunt or eat the humans. And so I’m mostly assuming at this point that not all demons are like this but I could very well be wrong. It’s a very sticky situation and whatever promise that Emma ends up making with the demon god or whoever will be key to solving it without mass genocide. Honestly if I were in this kind of situation I’d be very conflicted as well.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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I wonder if Norman knows something about escaping or even the human world as he hasn't actually said, according to my memory, why he is just against going that route.
 

CriticalThinker?

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Man the conversation between Emma, Ray, and Norman has been so damn good so far. And if there’s one thing both humans and demons can agree on is that the elite suck ass. And I’m curious if a human was to drink Mujika’s blood would they turn into a demon or would they stay the same? Wonder if this will ever be brought up.
 

The Silver

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Oct 28, 2017
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Demons are essentially vampires or rather the machines from the Matrix in terms of being an existential threat. I'm getting flashbacks to the anime Shiki with how this could all eventually go down if it continues Norman's path. That show did not end well for the vampires, not well at all.

Neverland universe got lucky with the character of Mujika, because of her there's a possible different path now, however unlikely it is to work.
 

SigmasonicX

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Oct 25, 2017
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Good chapter. I agree with others about how there was a nice back and forth between characters. I was a bit disappointed that there was an easy solution for the demons eating humans that didn't involve killing them, but then Norman and Ray pointed out the issues that would still exist.

It's a shame to hear that some people elsewhere are calling Emma dumb for advocating against genocide.

And Jesus, you guys are still getting baited by DTL.
 

Chase

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Oct 25, 2017
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And I’m curious if a human was to drink Mujika’s blood would they turn into a demon or would they stay the same? Wonder if this will ever be brought up.
I hope stay the same except but they become self sufficient without food. Whatever is the most goofy.

This series is already starting to feel too much like Attack on Titan (albeit less edgy/more optimistic) now with politics revolving around magic blood (allegedly anyways) Turning into demons would really push it over lol.
 
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CriticalThinker?

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I hope not. This series is already starting to feel too much like Attack on Titan (albeit less edgy/more optimistic) now with
politics revolving around magic blood (allegedly anyways)
Turning into demons would really push it over lol.
Yeah I don’t want it to go that way either I was just curious. Hell I’m still iffy on the super humans I don’t think I’d be able to handle demon human hybrids running about.
 

Antrax

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Oct 25, 2017
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Norman doesn't wanna go to the human side because that just violates the Promise. It's naive and childish to think that a treaty would still be enforced after such an event.
"Humans will live over here, and y'all live over there with the farms."
"All the farm kids escaped to your side!"
"Whoops, too bad. Sucks to suck. "

Like, that would instantly void the treaty. The human side could never go for it.
 

NHarmonic.

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
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Chapter’s out.

I feel that Norman will end up betraying them. Either sending someone to deal with Emma and Ray or some shit like that. There’s no way they are not building him up as the final boss here.

Interesting stuff.
 

alexi52

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Oct 28, 2017
4,847
Chapter’s out.

I feel that Norman will end up betraying them. Either sending someone to deal with Emma and Ray or some shit like that. There’s no way they are not building him up as the final boss here.

Interesting stuff.
Really don't see how that fits his character, everything he has done has been for them pretty much so I don't see you putting them In harm's way, the nobels where Shown early on in the first arc so I think it makes more sense for them to be the final antagonist
 

NHarmonic.

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
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Really don't see how that fits his character, everything he has done has been for them pretty much so I don't see you putting them In harm's way, the nobels where Shown early on in the first arc so I think it makes more sense for them to be the final antagonist
I feel there's a point in why they introduced his team of psycho-friends. I doubt Norman being as calculating as he is will let Emma or Ray risk everything. Either he sends the order or they become chased by the weird guys by their own decision. Remember Norman wants to eradicate even innocent demon children.

Also, those weird last Norman panels.
 

alexi52

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Oct 28, 2017
4,847
I feel there's a point in why they introduced his team of psycho-friends. I doubt Norman being as calculating as he is will let Emma or Ray risk everything. Either he sends the order or they become chased by the weird guys by their own decision. Remember Norman wants to eradicate even innocent demon children.

Also, those weird last Norman panels.
I believe this section of the story which made me to give more urgency and resolve for Emma, if she fails there will be War, Norman will attempt Genocide and nether Emma or Norman want that, this chapter showed is under pressure as a leader to make the hard choices he has to live with, and Emma's goal is to stop him from making that choice
 

Dany1899

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Dec 23, 2017
1,177
The front cover of this chapter perfectly recaps the different last months Emma and Norman spent, where she was with her family while he was completely alone. Very nice moment when Emma tells Norman he doesn't need to become a God.
Finally, there is the last panel..that sad expression on Norman's face is anything but reassuring.

I'm now thinking... what if Norman knows that he's going to die soon for some reasons related to the experiments and for this reason he absolutely wants a certain and safe future for Emma and Ray?
 
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FluxWaveZ

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Oct 25, 2017
6,882
One of those shots of Emma happy surrounded by happy demons and everyone is happy indeed had the makings of a "pipe dream."

I wonder what it'd take for Emma to get a proper dose of reality. A demon she trusts really messing up or killing someone close to her should do it.
 

Narroo

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Feb 27, 2018
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Yes, the elites are to blame for how bad the situation's gotten. But I don't think things would be fine if simply the elites were taken care of and their hierarchy was overhauled, with monster Jesus granting everyone left her blood.

I do feel like a vast many of them would continue eating humans because they're delicious. Or would continue hunting/torturing humans because it's fun. They're the ultimate apex predator, and that'll never go away. As such, they'll always see humans as insignificant animals that they can control.

Even if many of the demons would, for whatever reason, become docile towards humans and let them roam free—in "their" world—after gaining a way to maintain their form without eating humans, it's not a possibility I would play around with in their situation right now at all.

Barring "reforging the promise" which is probably going to be the real outcome of it all, I would see no other way to go about things than what Norman is saying. His is the most rational solution, if you're human.

Edit: We got humans already killing other humans for nothing and looking down on them. We don't need a whole other, much more powerful form of "human" added to the mix. They've already shown that they have their own individuality and morals. A "bad" apple in their society would cause considerable harm to humans.
Well, this is literally Emma's plan that she's been working on for months.

About 'rationality':

Neither of their plans are guaranteed to work , and there's much that can go wrong. Norman isn't omniscient, so any unexpected developments can throw a wrench into his plans. To wit: Musica herself. If Emma and co. hadn't escaped or met Musica, Norman would have had no clue she existed and his plan would have ultimately backfired.

In fact...wasn't this what happened to Norman in the first place? He only happened to get shipped to Lambda because he 'lost' to Momma/Isabel. Someone similar could very easily happen again. The same applies to Emma's plans.

The most 'rational' course, then, would be to pursue both plans as far as possible. Neither is yet exclusive of the other; they could easily split into groups each pursuing a different possibility until they're forced to choose. If one plan fails, they'd then have a backup. This is sort of what happened this chapter, but for the wrong reasons.

####
Really, the issue with Emma is that the author is falling back on simply her being the 'emotional, empathetic, heart' of the group, as opposed to being intelligent. Most of Emmas plans and goals are usually the most rational of the three; Norman and Ray tend to gravitate towards ideas that are superficially rational while Emma's plans are are much more holistically rational. For example: Ray, Emma, and Norman escaping by themselves would have been easier as far as escaping goes, but they'd have been obviously screwed past that.

But, instead of illustrating that Emma's goals actually do have real merit than just 'sounding nice,' instead the author is basically turning her into a Shonen Protagonist that's overly idealistic and somehow always wins out.
 

Spoder

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Oct 24, 2017
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That is a very well written thought, Narroo. I agree that the author undersells Emma but I do like how this current chapter develops. I like that Emma becomes much more resolved because she doesn't want Norman to be the one who has to handle everything by himself. I hope Promised Neverland will never become a typical shounen manga by turning Norman into a generic best friend turned arch enemy trope.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,843
Very terrible development. Whats the point of bringing Norman back only to have Ray and Emma go off on their own again? Senseless writing at its finest. He could easily go with Emma to the magical wonderland instead of sending them away from each other.

Combo plan with magic was the only solution to not make anyone sad. Sad that the writing will probably only show what happens on Ray Emma side and leave everything that happens with Norman and the deal off panel again.
 
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SigmasonicX

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Oct 25, 2017
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Huh, I didn't expect the story to go this route. It kind of feels like a cop out that we're leaving Norman Town already, but I still expect Emma's route to be interesting. I'm starting to think Norman won't be like an outright antagonist after all, which makes we wonder what the weird guys are for. Maybe a couple of them will go with Emma and come into conflict.
 

CriticalThinker?

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Hmmm when Emma hugged Norman he hesitated to hug her back. Either there’s some kind of deeper meaning behind that or I’m just being paranoid. And him saying afterwards that he won’t be going anywhere makes me doubtful of that but I’m probably just over thinking it. Must say these last few chapters have been some of my favourite, their conversation was handled really well in my opinion. And while I would have liked to spend more time with Norman I’m liking the direction were going in after their conversation was finished. Great chapter and I can’t wait to see how the misadventures of Emma and Ray turns out.
 

BassForever

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Oct 25, 2017
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That is a very well written thought, Narroo. I agree that the author undersells Emma but I do like how this current chapter develops. I like that Emma becomes much more resolved because she doesn't want Norman to be the one who has to handle everything by himself. I hope Promised Neverland will never become a typical shounen manga by turning Norman into a generic best friend turned arch enemy trope.
Norman wants to murder children because they are a different race from him, he’s full villain now
 

Spoder

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Oct 24, 2017
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I don't know if the sand people's children are killing people, but these demon's children are definitely eating children.

I'm not sure if the good guys can always just incapacitate their enemies without killing them in every story, it seems a bit unrealistic. Plus there's no guarantee that the bloodless solution is going to work, I think it's prudent to go forward with what they have right now.

Obviously Emma's plan is going to work because she is the main heroine so her solution will always be the right one, but that's more like a meta reasoning that Norman can't use.
 

FluxWaveZ

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Oct 25, 2017
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The examples being brought up against Norman's plan are pretty poor. This is a race of beings literally enslaving your own. They torture your own. They eat your own. They raise generations of your own for this continued purpose. And we have had very few examples that these beings feel any regret for what they're doing. Few examples that they wish they didn't have to do things the way they are. And this extends to their children.

They are apex predators. They aren't just doing it because they need to do so to survive. They do it because they enjoy it.
The most 'rational' course, then, would be to pursue both plans as far as possible. Neither is yet exclusive of the other; they could easily split into groups each pursuing a different possibility until they're forced to choose. If one plan fails, they'd then have a backup. This is sort of what happened this chapter, but for the wrong reasons.
Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. But at the same time, one plan is clearly more established and planned out with fewer unknowns, while the other one is all unkowns (including what the result of it would even be). I've always liked Norman the most, and that continues here.

I'm also not sure with how Emma's being written now, with more purely emotional reactions instead of measured ones with basis when she's supposed to be one of the smartest characters in the show as well. We'll see how that moves forward.
 

Spoder

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Oct 24, 2017
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And I still stand by the idea that the humans should offer their corpses to the demons so they can retain their intelligence and shape. Pretty sure there are enough corpses. Then both races can coexist together peacefully.
 

FluxWaveZ

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Oct 25, 2017
6,882
And I still stand by the idea that the humans should offer their corpses to the demons so they can retain their intelligence and shape. Pretty sure there are enough corpses. Then both races can coexist together peacefully.
That's the thing. The monsters wouldn't be satisfied with old, dilapidated bodies to eat who die from old age, natural causes, and disease just as much as we wouldn't be for our meat.
 

A.J.

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Oct 25, 2017
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And I still stand by the idea that the humans should offer their corpses to the demons so they can retain their intelligence and shape. Pretty sure there are enough corpses. Then both races can coexist together peacefully.
I would assume the majority of that would be old human meat which probably wouldn't taste very good.
 

Spoder

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Oct 24, 2017
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It is true that the quality of the meat would not be good, but since they need it to retain themselves, maybe they can think of it like medicine.
For food delicacy, they can start keeping livestock if they want to eat fresh meat. Or since they're already dabbling with cloning, artificial meat is the way to go :D.
 

BassForever

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Oct 25, 2017
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The examples being brought up against Norman's plan are pretty poor. This is a race of beings literally enslaving your own. They torture your own. They eat your own. They raise generations of your own for this continued purpose. And we have had very few examples that these beings feel any regret for what they're doing. Few examples that they wish they didn't have to do things the way they are. And this extends to their children.

They are apex predators. They aren't just doing it because they need to do so to survive. They do it because they enjoy it.

Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. But at the same time, one plan is clearly more established and planned out with fewer unknowns, while the other one is all unkowns (including what the result of it would even be). I've always liked Norman the most, and that continues here.

I'm also not sure with how Emma's being written now, with more purely emotional reactions instead of measured ones with basis when she's supposed to be one of the smartest characters in the show as well. We'll see how that moves forward.
If cows, chickens, etc had the mental capacity that humans do they’d probably think we’re monsters.