• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Deleted member 2840

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,400
Making this thread for fellow junior member P-Tux7, here's his post:

In my last thread about "Proportional or Equal LGBT Representation in Gaming", I got corrected as instead of wanting more LGBT+ representation in games, I should want the freedom of creators and writers to put those themes in games without fear of rejection or punishment. This is a sort of manifesto about what I'm trying to make happen in gaming.

My goals:
1. To not only end corporate- or capital-caused retooling or changing of LGBT+ characters, relationships, themes, or mentions into cishet ones, but also to end the culture that prevents those ideas from being brought up and changed in the first place because the people who think of the LGBT+ ideas "won't even bother suggesting something that will get shot down by my boss". This entails not only allowing more queer developers to share their ideas and put them into production, but also to empower cishet allies to be able to put this kind of supportive content in their games.
2. To let these ideas be expressed in AAA games (think the scale of Nintendo, Square-Enix, Bamco, etc.). While the previous and current freeware, indie, and small-studio games with LGBT+ themes will always be on the right side of history for broaching these topics first (either as a serious examination of LGBT+ themes, or lighter "fluff" material that is not targeted towards mature audiences), I am stating this to point out that I want ANY scale of game project to be able to use LGBT+ ideas without fear of cancellation or rejection. Having "gAy gAmEs" be regarded as only for small or non-mainstream audiences, to be "ghettoized" in a sense by being corraled outside of the more bourgeoise studios and audiences, is something that I wish for the industry leaders to steer away from.
3. To campaign for the freedom to put LGBT+ themes in games *now*. I don't want the LGBT community to have to wait 10 years, get what we want, and pretend like we weren't asking for it 10 years ago.


Also, I'd just like to address something before it happens. "Creators don't decide what to put in their games! Quit acting like they're artists who will listen to you!" Whether this is true or not, I am speaking of all people. Designers should be able to feel free to suggest LGBT+ themes, their managers should feel free to suggest games with these themes to their bosses, writers should feel free to put in overarching queer themes or merely random NPCs being queer, and above all, their bosses should NEVER AGAIN worry about the market not wanting to buy games with LGBT+ themes. Every gamer, even the stereotypical white, cisgender, heterosexual male in their mid-twenties, plays games to get at least mildly challenged. Even the most "cookie-cutter" or "dumbed-down" games are made to make the player feel excited, a little tense, and for their fingers to sweat. I think that just playing as a gay character who kisses a dude in the ending will not be a challenge too daunting after having beaten the final battle.

As long as you, the bosses, continue to add these explicit queer themes in games, even the most closed-minded game purchasers will find themselves more tolerant of playing as and empathizing with the victories of the characters, queer or not. It's a curious thing how many Christians I've seen online got the pacifist ending of Undertale... one that requires you to hook up two same-sex couples. These players were able to forgive Undertale encouraging this "behavior that I wouldn't agree with or do in real life" because not only was the game good enough for them to look past it, but they found themselves being happy anyways for well-written characters like Undyne and Alphys whose relationship was understandable - Alphys worrying if she was the person that Undyne deserved is a theme that both straight and gay people can understand. In addition, the reason to add gay relationships and transgender themes instead of staying at cishet stuff to "appeal to everybody" is because of all the good press it will get by the professional and grassroots/word-of-mouth media... and the young people who will forever remember your company standing up for them.
If you're too scared to stand up for allowance of LGBT+ themes to your bosses or your purchasing audience... don't be. Like I said, as long as you keep pushing, you will become more successful every time. Audiences will become more tolerant if you CHALLENGE them to become tolerant, and you will also gain the loyalty of the queer people who want to see the hopes and struggles that they have in real life, mirrored in the games they play.
 

Sub Boss

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
13,441
At first i thought there was a game developer named "The Quest" that was looking to empower game writters lol , hoping these themes are more common in the future
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
Thanks for making this topic. I realized that my last topic asked the wrong question.
 

Leo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,554
That's all great and I cosign it, but what exactly can we do about it?

I mean, we have been discussing and demanding changes for years now, and this forum has an enormous visibility so this definitely had some role on what little progress we have seen, but is there anything else we can do?
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
That's all great and I cosign it, but what exactly can we do about it?

I mean, we have been discussing and demanding changes for years now, and this forum has an enormous visibility so this definitely had some role on what little progress we have seen, but is there anything else we can do?
I don't know. I was hoping that this thread would lead to some new ideas. Like I said, I'm not going to pretend to be grateful 10 years later for getting what I was asking for now.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
As a consumer all you really can do is vote with your wallet and signal boost the existence of inclusive media.
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
As a consumer all you really can do is vote with your wallet and signal boost the existence of inclusive media.
I dunno. That doesn't seem to have been working well so far as for letting LGBT themes gain more visibility. I'd prefer to be less passive about this.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I dunno. That doesn't seem to have been working well so far as for letting LGBT themes gain more visibility. I'd prefer to be less passive about this.

At the end of the day we need to prove that Queer content is valid and desired. If the people who want it can't make an effort to shout it out loud then what's the point of this thread?

That, and you're not really going to get much in the way of Queer representation from AAA studios. Indie titles are where it's at, and they could use all the promotion they can get.
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
At the end of the day we need to prove that Queer content is valid and desired. If the people who want it can't make an effort to shout it out loud then what's the point of this thread?

That, and you're not really going to get much in the way of Queer representation from AAA studios. Indie titles are where it's at, and they could use all the promotion they can get.
Are you saying that the things I said I wanted in this thread I should give up on?
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Are you saying that the things I said I wanted in this thread I should give up on?

I'm saying if we want this we need to show that it's wanted, that our voices need to be heard and be louder than GamerGate shitheads, because the corporate machine churning out games isn't going to do it out of the goodness of their hearts.
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
I'm saying if we want this we need to show that it's wanted, that our voices need to be heard and be louder than GamerGate shitheads, because the corporate machine churning out games isn't going to do it out of the goodness of their hearts.
Ah, thanks. I tried to be pragmatic about it by pointing out how most people will acclimate themselves to games with LGBT content (like how religious people acclimated to games with pagan or whatever religions) and that people would buy the games more to be supportive. Was I reasoning poorly?
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Ah, thanks. I tried to be pragmatic about it by pointing out how most people will acclimate themselves to games with LGBT content (like how religious people acclimated to games with pagan or whatever religions) and that people would buy the games more to be supportive. Was I reasoning poorly?

Honestly? Just go nuts. As trite as it sounds: Be the change you want to see.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,783
I dunno. That doesn't seem to have been working well so far as for letting LGBT themes gain more visibility. I'd prefer to be less passive about this.
The game industry is fueled by two things, creative drive and money.

Unfortunately, unless those themes will cause developers to get more money, you wont see more developers include them because at the same time it is also a creative driven industry and artist by nature want to express their own ideas. So you need developers who chose to do so because it makes sense for their project or want to lead by example and do it for more noble reasons or because they themselves are part of the LGBT community and want to make what they want play to hopefully inspire other developers to broaden the spectrum. So the game industry is more driven by money than creativity, which is why we see popular ideas being realized in AAA games because they appeal to the masses and more art form games be smaller often indie sized games.

Also games are made by a shit ton of people and unless you have actual creative input and it makes sense to have those themes present in the game you are working on it wont happen and there is very little or nothing you can do about it until someone actually makes a AAA game with those themes because they want to or it makes them more money then not having those themes present.

This is all why LBGT themed games are small, mostly indie developed projects since they are often done by smaller teams so its easy to align or have the creative control to make a game have those themes or be fully about that.

The only solution is for people who are part of the LBGT community or are passionate about LBGT themes to do it themselves. Either start a project or band up to set up a company to prove with a product that those themes wont hurt the financial viability of a project.

You cannot move a financial mammoth like the AAA gaming industry by wanting things. you need to rise up and do it yourselves and show them by building a LBGT themed product from the ground up and give them examples why it makes sense to include them into their projects.

In the end I fear its going to take its sweet ass time and you cannot force change, because that will make people reject it entirely, people want to want it. this goes for everything, from politics to what to eat tonight.
 
Last edited:

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
This is all why LBGT themed games are small, mostly indie developed projects since they are often done by smaller teams so its easy to align or have the creative control to make a game have those themes or be fully about that.
This is a good point. For as much as I felt some aspects of Undertale were preachy, it was undeniable that it being a atory Toby Fox was telling allowed for some of the elements like
Undyne/Alphys
 

Mobyduck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,100
Brazil
There are very few things we, as consumers, can do (I apologize if these are obvious or have already been discussed):
  • Buy games with LGBT+ content and themes. If The Last of Us 2 ends up being a success (which it probably will), it will help open up more stories with queers characters in the main role. If you find a small, niche game, that has queer elements, consider buying it and talking about it with other people. You never know who might be interested in it, which will help propel it forward;
  • Buy games made by queer folk. I recommend following LGBT+ developers on twitter or any other social media of you choice, and you will see that they have a really tight community, always trying to help each other up. Get to know more developers, check the games they are making and consider throwing some money their way if any of those games seem interesting. Doing this lets them stay in the industry, doing what they love and, potentially, helping bring other LGBT+ people in. These might eventually join the bigger studios and bring a breath of fresh air to those games;
  • Stick to your guns. Recently, SonicFox was targeted by bigots for being who he is and doing what he loves. The Furry and the queer community (and mostly the queer furries) joined on Twitter to help him fight against those people. Hashtag campaigns (#imgay), reporting homophobes, writing messages of support and so on. Every little thing helps, and when you lift one person of the community up, you lift them all. You also show the industry that there is a very big contingent of people from that group that is ready to support those similar to them, as well as their allies.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,577
The most difficult part is to get the ball rolling. I have no problem playing games that star LGBT characters but off the top of my head I can only think of one that exists, which is Overwatch. If I own any games starring LGBT characters then it was so subtle that I didn't even notice. As a consumer my vote of approval can't really be heard here because there is nothing for me to buy. Once more games take bold steps, like LoU2, I can see a big change in perception happening. Hopefully anyway.
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
I noticed that this thread didn't really take off like the other one. Does it need improving, or does this mean that me raising the topic is annoying?
 

kirbyfan407

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,112
I noticed that this thread didn't really take off like the other one. Does it need improving, or does this mean that me raising the topic is annoying?

I would say it's definitely not the latter! Please keep raising this and related topics.

The difference between this thread and the last one might be the last one raised a rather clear and simple (yet easily debated) question. I think that led to a lot of discussion. This thread requires a bit more reading and doesn't have as much of something for people to quickly and directly engage with.

None of that is to say that anything needs to be improved! I mean the above as an analysis, not a critique. However, if you want more engagement, you might want to provide more clarity on what you are asking from readers and find a way to make those discussion points the focus. (From what I've seen, asking for opinions, posing simple questions, relatable stories, and controversy often generate a lot of engagement.) I read, understood, and appreciated your words, but I wasn't sure how to respond beyond saying as much or writing an equally long and thorough post.

Keep up the thoughtful work!
 

Yukari

Member
Mar 28, 2018
11,707
Thailand
I noticed that this thread didn't really take off like the other one. Does it need improving, or does this mean that me raising the topic is annoying?

Not Trying To offend you.
But I think Maybe people didn't care much about having LGBT in AAA video games ?

Still wonder how LGBT representation in The Last of Us 2
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
There are very few things we, as consumers, can do (I apologize if these are obvious or have already been discussed):
  • Buy games with LGBT+ content and themes. If The Last of Us 2 ends up being a success (which it probably will), it will help open up more stories with queers characters in the main role. If you find a small, niche game, that has queer elements, consider buying it and talking about it with other people. You never know who might be interested in it, which will help propel it forward;
  • Buy games made by queer folk. I recommend following LGBT+ developers on twitter or any other social media of you choice, and you will see that they have a really tight community, always trying to help each other up. Get to know more developers, check the games they are making and consider throwing some money their way if any of those games seem interesting. Doing this lets them stay in the industry, doing what they love and, potentially, helping bring other LGBT+ people in. These might eventually join the bigger studios and bring a breath of fresh air to those games;
  • Stick to your guns. Recently, SonicFox was targeted by bigots for being who he is and doing what he loves. The Furry and the queer community (and mostly the queer furries) joined on Twitter to help him fight against those people. Hashtag campaigns (#imgay), reporting homophobes, writing messages of support and so on. Every little thing helps, and when you lift one person of the community up, you lift them all. You also show the industry that there is a very big contingent of people from that group that is ready to support those similar to them, as well as their allies.
These are all fine ideas, but I'm not sure if these will result in rapid progress. Like I said, I've been waiting for years now, so it's obvious that waiting for things to get better will take 10-20 years. I'd prefer to be more politically active than that.
 

DarkShame3

Alt Account
Banned
Jan 26, 2019
324
Thank you for creating this thread. I agree that there is still a culture of fear, and that this results in silence from people who want to stand up in the industry. I also agree that people will "acclimate" to seeing LGBTQA+ characters in games once it becomes part of the norm.

" Designers should be able to feel free to suggest LGBT+ themes, their managers should feel free to suggest games with these themes to their bosses, writers should feel free to put in overarching queer themes or merely random NPCs being queer"

I just wish I knew how we can get to "feel free" from where we are now. All I can think of really is to take a chance and stand our ground. I often think we still discuss these issues within the established majority narrative/framework, instead of within our own. As a result, we are not asserting ourselves with sufficient confidence.

"above all, their bosses should NEVER AGAIN worry about the market not wanting to buy games with LGBT+ themes. "

Imagine how strange it would seem to people on the other side of the fence if we were to avoid purchasing games that featured "straight" themes or "cisgender" themes, lol. Of course, if we were to do that, we'd have to avoid purchasing most games.
 

Mobyduck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,100
Brazil
Being outside the industry, I feel like that's the most I can contribute with. People who are in the industry (journalists, developers, publishers etc.) have more power, and more options. As a student of Gastronomy, for example, I'm doing what I can, by researching about the subject, giving voice to those who feel they do not have one, and, hopefully soon, helping create new projects to highlight the work of queer folk in my industry, as well as giving them a safe space.

I think the gaming industry has taken long strides when it comes to representation, if we consider how young it is compared to other media. Ease of access and low barrier of entry has helped a lot in giving voice to people, and some of the big publishers have programs to help minorities rise. Unfortunately, there is only so much you can do.
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
If Kotaku doesn't get back to me about turning this thread into an article, should I give up on all this campaigning I'm doing on ResetEra?
 

Leo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,554
Not Trying To offend you.
But I think Maybe people didn't care much about having LGBT in AAA video games ?

That's your conclusion because one thread on resetera didn't take off? Lol

The LGBT gamer community is huge and loud, this thread just doesn't have enough of a discussion driving force, is all. OP's text works better as an article than to ignite discussion, I hope it gets accepted on Kotaku.

Don't give up, OP!
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
Thanks! Should I post this to the fan article section, or wait and see if Kotaku wants me to write this as an article first?
Note: Either way, it would be better-organized than in this first post.
 

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,507
I've got some game ideas floating around, but making games is hard. And it's generally not something I've thought of gravitating towards.

Which would ultimately be a form of direct action.

But publishing articles, making threads, boosting LGBT content and always asking for more, it all helps.
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
Kotaku still hasn't emailed me back yet. Is posting this to Talk Amongst Yourselves the best option? I don't want to be deplatformed.
 

Elephant

Member
Nov 2, 2017
1,786
Nottingham, UK
Well said. Even though the industry is much braver than it was before with these themes, I still think there's a small part that is still tentative about how much including these themes will affect sales, which isn't right but they still see it as a risk. A lot of big companies refuse to publicly take political sides because it could "alienate" paying customers and they have shareholders to please.

At the moment it seems that most games that "embrace" these themes offer the player a choice between straight or otherwise (Mass Effect), basically not exposing others to these LGBT+ experiences if they choose a straight path. Either that or they leave it up to the player to decide (Kanji, Persona 4), never explicitly saying "yeah this character is gay". If they do explicitly say it, it's the characters lore and gamers aren't really exposed to it in game (Overwatch).

I don't think these themes need to be shoe-horned into everything as some kind of token gesture because it's considered "en vogue". But I think these big companies should be brave enough to include these themes if they want to use them. Take a bold stand for an important issue. "Hey, here's your main guy kissing another guy, which is ok. Get over it."
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I know these are not the topics of the current discussion in the thread but I wanted to mention a couple of things:

- About the reason this thread hasn't taken off: there's not much to discuss beyond "I agree"; I would assume most everyone here on Era is fully on board with removing any and all obstacles to letting creators freely represent the LGBT+ community. It's like "being against cancer", you're not going to get many different points of view, and hence, not much discussion.

A topic that would generate more talk (and has been touched on above, but should probably be the focus) is how to achieve that in practical terms. I posit that "vote with your wallet" works to a rather limited extent, for many reasons up to and including that you can't wallet-vote for something that doesn't exist: at some point you also need to campaign to let companies know what you want to see. People using "vote with your wallet" usually don't really much care about the issue being discussed, be it sexualization, racism, or LGBT representation.

- About the other thread (whether gay representation should be demographically proportional or 50/50), I think (beyond the issue of forcing artists to do anything other than what they want, which has already been addressed) there's also the issue of forgetting other demographics. What about asexuals, for example? There's so very little representation of them, not just in videogames but in media in general (literally the only example I can think of is Todd from Bojack Horseman).

But at the same time, you raise a good point that demographically proportional representation is not ideal for orientations that are statistically less numerous, and that heterosexuality probably doesn't need as much representation as other orientations, because representation leads to familiarity, understanding, acceptance and embracement. Perhaps the ideal would be reducing hetero representation a bit, and have that share distributed proportionally among other orientations.

To reiterate, this is mostly academic since artists should do what they want, but just in case any artists would actively want to have more representation in their games, perhaps that could be an useful guideline.
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
Turns of Jason Schreier accepts Twitter DMs, I sent him one a few days ago. Wish me luck.
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
I haven't got any replies yet. I'm getting worried, because I really want a big public platform to share my ideas on, and people have told me that ResetERA isn't it.
 

Mobyduck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,100
Brazil
I recommend contacting Ana Valens, who writes for DailyDot. She writes a lot about gaming and trans folk. She might know where to direct you to, if the subject is interesting enough.
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
I recommend contacting Ana Valens, who writes for DailyDot. She writes a lot about gaming and trans folk. She might know where to direct you to, if the subject is interesting enough.
Thanks for the recommendation. Sorry for not replying earlier, but I didn't want to act presumptive.

Anyways, neither Valens or the Kotaku editors have replied to my Twitter DMs about this article at all yet. What am I doing wrong?
My article seems like the type of thing Valens covers if this is any indication:
I know a Twitter DM isn't professional, but I don't think she has a public email.
 

deepFlaw

Knights of Favonius World Tour '21
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,495
Thanks for the recommendation. Sorry for not replying earlier, but I didn't want to act presumptive.

Anyways, neither Valens or the Kotaku editors have replied to my Twitter DMs about this article at all yet. What am I doing wrong?
My article seems like the type of thing Valens covers if this is any indication:
I know a Twitter DM isn't professional, but I don't think she has a public email.

These sites almost certainly have a process for taking pitches for articles and handling freelance writers. You are going to want to look into that and go through that route instead of DMing (effectively) random people involved in the sites.
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
These sites almost certainly have a process for taking pitches for articles and handling freelance writers. You are going to want to look into that and go through that route instead of DMing (effectively) random people involved in the sites.
I did use the email that Kotaku listed for submitting news a month or two ago. Nobody's replied to that.