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Boiled Goose

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
9,999
Go watch the original film again: what you just described is Star Wars.

Is it science fiction? No, it's a Western? No, wait, it's a samurai film? A medieval fantasy? A war movie? Are these robots the main characters? Who is this kid? Wait, what is this dude straight out of the Seventies doing in this? Is he the main character?

I saw 4 and 5 recently and no. It is not the same. At all. Funny moments are funny somewhat believable character interactions. In TLJ it's cartooney family humor thrown in at moments of extreme tension and seriousness. It doesn't work and it's not the same

Check this video out. It illustrates this point extremely well.

 

gully state

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,989
I literally heard nothing but good things said about TLJ via word of mouth IRL.

Complete opposite for me. At best, it's a polarizing film.

the only people I have ever heard bad mouth TLJ irl are white nerds that spend all day online and then spend the whole time arguing about how I would agree with them if I watch LoudAnnoyingNerd88's 45 min rant on YouTube

uh oh...we have a badass over here..
 

Aprikurt

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 29, 2017
18,775
Guess I should've specified that it did for me personally. The whole EDITH thing and how integrated they made IM into Spider-Man's development just ticked me off way too much. I get WHY, but I just don't like it at all. I was fine with Mysterio being a disgruntled former Stark employee, I wasn't fine with SP essentially just inheriting IM's keys to the kingdom THAT hard (tho we'll see how the next movie deals with it).
Eh a lot of the ending came down to subverting this tho. "You'll never be Iron Man" and that's fine. And yeah, next movie looks to be anything but status quo.
 

Ziltoidia 9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,141
Maybe if it was done in TFA or at least at the beginning of TLJ.

Ultimately I think it is a clash of styles that wrecked the new trilogy, that mixed with the highly anticipated reunion of Luke, Han, and Leia. JJ's mystery box style mixed with Rian's unexpected style just didn't jive. But yeah, I totally agree with it needing to be established earlier. The fall of Luke's academy and the rise of Kylo too. I think the opening crawl of 7 mentions something along the lines of a dark influence coming from the unkown regions. So it is kinda there, but you would think Luke would try to get to the bottom of it for his friends and family, and not run. Ultimately, JJ's thing was to use Luke's experience as a highly awaited moment (memicing what the fans have wanted for decades). Then when we get to TLJ, the baton that JJ was passing on just got tossed.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
I had a couple friends that enjoyed TLJ but most dunked on it.

My family didn't like it but they didn't like TFA either so they're not terribly indicative of the public.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,887
Mixed for me. Same as with critics.
The reason is it does some things poorly but has some interesting themes. So it comes down to what you value and what your standards are.
Critics was not mixed though... it received critical acclaim.

And the things you think it does poorly are your opinion, so this talk of "standards" doesn't really fit the way you're trying to make it.
 

dlauv

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,509
I saw 4 and 5 recently and no. It is not the same. At all. Funny moments are funny somewhat believable character interactions. In TLJ it's cartooney family humor thrown in at moments of extreme tension and seriousness. It doesn't work and it's not the same

Check this video out. It illustrates this point extremely well.

The comedy was awkward at points but to say it ruined the movie is just scapegoating. Even in Rogue One, where Darth Vader was cracking one liners about his force choke, it didn't make the movie anymore boring than it was nor ruin the character. RotJ was full of dorky humor but that movie doesn't get nearly as bad of a rap. A movie where humor really might bog down the experience is Age of Ultron. Joss can't help but break tension almost immediately.
 

AstronaughtE

Member
Nov 26, 2017
10,195
Having jj end this was a mistake. He makes the most forgettable movies. I've been defending him for years, in the hopes that something will click with him. But, I had the same hopes for Snyder.

Anyways, I don't think I'm going to go out of my way to see this. I was thinking about trying to convince my better half to see this with me, but these reviews seal the deal. Sounds like Rise of Skywalker will make for a good summer rental.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
So JJ wrote drafts for a series he never intended to return to (except for retaining an exec producer credit) even tho KK hired a new writer-director to replace him and continue the story he started? Like he did all that work just because? I don't know seems quite unlikely given the pressures and demands he faced just finishing TFA on time.

It's not really that hard to write a 2-3 page outline of where the story is going, it's very useful if you're writing a script to write what happened before your story begins and what happens afterwards so have an easier time completing the script you're working on. You have a backstory to go with and you know where the story is going so you can build in setups that will later be paid off.
 

kvetcha

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,835
Everyone I know in real life hated TLJ too but those people have some shit taste in movies and their complaints are nonsensical

The person I know who most violently hated TLJ is a borderline racist who also hated The Princess Bride, so that might color my perspective on the discourse.
 

Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,806
From Forbes. I don't believe for a second that this is possibly as bad as the prequels. Especially the first two, which are barely competent on a basic filmmaking level.
To be noted: Scott Mendelson stanned TLJ HARD, so he is probably upset that (allegedly) some of its themes/ elements were retconed in RoS.

Edit: just read the beginning and oof... yeah. Massive chip on shoulder.
 

jamemax

Member
Dec 12, 2018
39
Just watched at a premier in my country.
Not that of a bad film like critics say. It's entertaining to watch. There are some flaws here and there but it's not too distract. At least it's better than SOLO for me.
I think It's pretty okay as a film on its own, but it's a pretty bad as a sequel. Story is so out of place, feel like a Rey DLC story or a fanfic, not a sequel or finale of a trilogy/saga.
 

ZeoVGM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
76,089
Providence, RI
My office has TLJ playing on a projector and it froze exactly on shirtless Kylo Ren.

A giant shirtless Kylo Ren has now been on the wall for 5 hours.
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
It's not really that hard to write a 2-3 page outline of where the story is going, it's very useful if you're writing a script to write what happened before your story begins and what happens afterwards so have an easier time completing the script you're working on. You have a backstory to go with and you know where the story is going so you can build in setups that will later be paid off.
Even if that were the case, which is doubtful given the evidence to the contrary, who gives a shit? Rian was hired to write and direct the sequel. His movies builds literally right from JJ's movie. Rey's origin is addressed. Snoke's relationship with Ben is explored. The reason for Luke's exile is explored and addressed. What happened between Luke and Ben is answered. The fallout of the New Republic being destroyed puts the Resistance in even more dire straits (no outside support), Poe's character is given additional shadings, the Resistance base being exposed at the end of TFA opens them up to immediate counter-attack.

You don't hire a new writer-director to build a script off someone else's outline. If that's what you want, you hire a yes-man who will play nice with exec demands.
 

Mr.Deadshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,285
It's poetic. I still remember when people were still trying to argue Star Wars was still bigger than Marvel these days lol

Endgame stuck the landing perfectly without pretending none of the previous movies counted (even Thor 2 got some love) and that's why it will be remembered fondly for generations.
Endgame was poorly paced trash. It even made the great Inifinity War worse and totally shat on Thanos character.
 

Odesu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,537
Ì
I saw 4 and 5 recently and no. It is not the same. At all. Funny moments are funny somewhat believable character interactions. In TLJ it's cartooney family humor thrown in at moments of extreme tension and seriousness. It doesn't work and it's not the same

Check this video out. It illustrates this point extremely well.


Almost every dramatic scene in Empire is accompanied by CONSTANT comedy Relief in the form of C3PO. The dude never Stops talking and almost never is it relevant to anything, its only quips and complaining. Hell, while Han is getting encased the dude is STILL going with quips, bemoaning that someone needs to turn him around because he cant see anything etc. Yoda is basically comedy Relief for half the time he is onscreen.

Seriously, TLJ's comedic efforts are so much more isolated than Empire's, the complaint is really nonsensical when that movie is put up on auch a pedestal as the dark, broody masterpiece in comparison. Not even gonna mention A New Hope and Return, the last of which especially would get absolutely SLAUGHTERED these days.
 

takriel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,221
Saw the first half. It's a 10 minute break.

This movie ROCKS!
 

ZackieChan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,056
Actors have no input in the screenwriting process. And considering TFA's script wasn't even done before they started filming, it's laughable to think he also had drafts of VIII and IX ready to go.

Take it from an actual screenwriter: you don't just pump out three full movie scripts - ESPECIALLY a Star Wars movie - in rapid succession like that. Scriptwriting is a long and painful process.
So JJ wrote drafts for a series he never intended to return to (except for retaining an exec producer credit) even tho KK hired a new writer-director to replace him and continue the story he started? Like he did all that work just because? I don't know seems quite unlikely given the pressures and demands he faced just finishing TFA on time.

Why are you both talking about full draft screenplays, when no one is making that claim? As an "actual screenwriter", you surely know that there are various stages in outlining a story, right? Not straight into FULLL MOVIE SCRIPTS
Especially when getting ideas down for future filmmakers to take up your work?
These are the most disingenuous posts...
 

NinjaGarden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,548
It's not terribly hard to have an outline plan for further instalments while you are writing your base story.

Plenty of writers write back stories and if the project is a series will also write further past their specific script so they know where they are coming from and where they are going. It's not some uncommon or unheard of thing in screenwriting.
Kathleen Kennedy has stated that Lucasfilm "spent a great deal of time working out all three movies" but doesn't specify if it included JJ. At some point they had a basic outline.

 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
The person I know who most violently hated TLJ is a borderline racist who also hated The Princess Bride, so that might color my perspective on the discourse.

Whilst your anecdotal experience may be true, the hate for TLJ can't really be pinned on racism, not when TFA recieved no where near the divisive fan response that TLJ did, and still features a prominent black main character.

Infact, Finn is given far more prominence and a more notable character portrayal in TFA than in TLJ, the latter in which he's almost sidelined comparative to how compelling he was in the first movie.
 

sml_x

Member
Oct 27, 2017
247
nope, disney boxed themselves in by adhering to the trilogy format. Not Rian's fault

I feel like this isn't discussed enough. There is no ironclad law of the universe that says that Star Wars movies need to come in sets of 3. When Lucas added Episode IV to the crawl, it wasn't because he had some master plan for I - III, it was just a cheeky nod to the serials of his youth. And those serials just went on and on, they weren't made up of trilogies.

It seems like the fundamental problem with Disney SW is that they've all been rushed. I wonder sometimes if there were some behind the scenes deadlines in play. Didn't George sign the OT cast to the sequels before selling to Disney as a way of sweetening the deal? Did those contracts have expiration dates? If TFA had more breathing room in the development process a lot of problems with both TFA and TLJ might have been avoided.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,496
Why are you both talking about full draft screenplays, when no one is making that claim? As an "actual screenwriter", you surely know that there are various stages in outlining a story, right? Not straight into FULLL MOVIE SCRIPTS
Especially when getting ideas down for future filmmakers to take up your work?
These are the most disingenuous posts...

It's not being disingenuous to point out that saying "THEY HAD A PLAAAAAAAAN" is silly when what JJ likely had was maybe two or three pages of notes and "it might be cool if..." thoughts scribbled out. He did not write drafts for movies he was never going to direct.
 

ZackieChan

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,056
It's not being disingenuous to point out that saying "THEY HAD A PLAAAAAAAAN" when what JJ likely had was maybe two or three pages of notes and "it might be cool if..." thoughts scribbled out. He did not write drafts for movies he was never going to direct.
How is an outline for future films not a "plan"? Why do they need to be full script drafts?
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
Wha-No way.

bdd989df-3526-461f-9db4-144bd414c0c6.png


Impossible. Perhaps the archives are incomplete?

Jesus christ
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Even if that were the case, which is doubtful given the evidence to the contrary, who gives a shit? Rian was hired to write and direct the sequel. His movies builds literally right from JJ's movie. Rey's origin is addressed. Snoke's relationship with Ben is explored. The reason for Luke's exile is explored and addressed. What happened between Luke and Ben is answered. The fallout of the New Republic being destroyed puts the Resistance in even more dire straits (no outside support), Poe's character is given additional shadings, the Resistance base being exposed at the end of TFA opens them up to immediate counter-attack.

You don't hire a new writer-director to build a script off someone else's outline. If that's what you want, you hire a yes-man who will play nice with exec demands.

To be honest maybe they should have done that (hired a JJ approved yes man).

Because effectively I think what they kind of ended up with was two Episode VIIs that are kind of at odds with each other and both I think needed two further films past them to actually conclude the story.

Rian Johnson is too talented and too ambitious of a filmmaker to just shove into a middle of a trilogy, he should have gotten a SW movie sure, but it should've been his own where he didn't have to kinda pander to a story that had already started.

I do think all that was ultimately a problem for this trilogy, JJ and Johnson are not really compatible storytellers.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,496
How is an outline for future films not a "plan"? Why do they need to be full script drafts?

I'm sorry, but he was maintaining outright at that point in the process that he was ONLY there for that movie and that's it. Remember, he was ONLY contracted for VII until Trevorrow crashed and burned. Why would he put together entire outlines of movies he was going to have nothing to do with?
 

DeltaRed

Member
Apr 27, 2018
5,746
If you strip out all the romance scene AOTC isn't even that bad. Obi-Wan investigating Jango, going to Kamino then Geonosis, Christopher Lee, Anakin on Tatooine, the Arena battle, Across the Stars, Yoda and the Younglings, there are plenty of nice moments.