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Eolz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,601
FR
I thought someone would make a thread about this excellent story from Polygon already, but apparently not.

Retro, today, is known as the studio behind of one of the greatest games of all time, Metroid Prime, its two sequels and a pair of Donkey Kong Country games. The team is a part of the Nintendo family, beloved by fans who grew up with its games. But through a lot of its early years Retro was a studio on the brink of collapse, constantly churning but with no results. It was saved by Nintendo's decision to trust it with one of its long-running franchises. Getting there, though, was a trial by fire that left many without jobs and with bitter feelings about a studio built on ambition and top-tier development talent.
(after a long part about the start of Retro and the famous 4 games...)
For most of its early history, Retro Studios got direction from Nintendo of America — which was an issue, according to one anonymous employee, because "they have nothing to do with how the games are made. It's all in Japan. … We weren't interfacing with Nintendo of Japan at all. We never talked to Miyamoto. We never talked to Mr. Iwata. We never talked to anybody over there."
(...)
"So basically what happened on their first visit — it was a bloodbath," the employee recalls. "[They] hated everything that we were doing. We weren't developing games in their philosophy. It was a huge cold splash of water in the face."
Job_insecurity_5.JPG

Between 2000 and 2001, Retro was bleeding employees. According to those we talked to, few felt comfortable; they were scared they were the next to go. During this time, if you walked around Retro's office, Tveraas says, you wouldn't hear people working on games; you'd hear them working on resumes.

First change of President
Not only was Spangenberg increasingly absent, the way he ran his company and his extracurricular activities didn't exactly match with Nintendo's family-friendly image, specifically a website he had been running in his spare time called "Sinful Summer," full of pictures from pool parties at Spangenberg's house with scantily clad women.
(...)
the Sinful Summer controversy — which Spangenberg hosted from Retro's IP address. "Basically this was the thing that cemented the end for him, because once Nintendo caught wind of this, that's when it was pretty much done," Mathews says.
(...)
"They didn't want to give Jeff any money because they thought the way he did everything was reprehensible. They wanted him to exit as cheap as possible," Mathews says. "I think he was backed into a corner; it was either a million or nothing."

Metroid crunch
It was a skeleton crew compared to its former self, but an inadvertent trade-off of Retro's layoffs was that it was left with, as Mathews puts it, "the cream of the crop."
(...)
"Once we hit the Metroid cycle, I think it took us almost six months to do the first level that Nintendo approved, then we had less than a year to do the rest of the game," former senior artist James Dargie says. "Things accelerated quickly. A lot of the theories and senior leadership best practices kind of went out the window at that point."
(...)
"It was probably one of the worst experiences I've ever had," one developer on the project recalls. "We had a rough time with development in general. But we had an enforced almost year's worth of overtime. I think it was nine to 10 months of over time of at least minimum 12-hour days. I worked 48 hours straight on that project without sleeping. It was the worst."

Second change of president
In an effort to retain talent after Metroid Prime's development, a combination of "management and high-level individual contributors," as Mathews puts it, decided to put forth a royalty program.

And at the beginning, at least, it seemed to be made with good intentions.
(...)
But for reasons unclear, after all this work, Barcia came in and changed the numbers. As they put it, that curve became a cliff where seven or eight people were at the peak, paid handsomely, and everyone else was at the base of the mountain.
(...)
When enough was enough, a number of employees planned a mass exodus. Fed up with the way Barcia ran shop, they were going to leave.
(...)
Nintendo, now with a hit under its belt thanks to Retro, didn't take the news lightly. Barcia was replaced by Michael Kelbaugh — then Nintendo's director of business development — in 2003. Kelbaugh brought a better working environment, more stability. Under his rule, the company went on to develop other critical and commercial hits.

Afterwards
Some developers declined interviews, as well, telling Polygon they didn't want to relive their years at the studio.
(...)
"I mean, three quarters of the people you would talk to had really awful experiences," Mathews says, reflecting on his time at the studio. "It's not a blast being anywhere near any of the layoffs. There was a lot of negativity there. But I put out the best games I'm ever going to make. The people I worked with were the most talented people I've ever worked with."
Poster_version.JPG


More at the link
A lot of really sad details to hear, like a lot of US game companies from that era, but somehow even worse.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,934
I've heard these tales before, It's amazing Metroid Prime even got made and absolutely staggering that came out as amazing as it is.
 

Yarbskoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,980
I still can't believe Metroid Prime turned out how it did. Everything surrounding the circumstances of its development spelled disaster. It says a lot about the talent of the people working on it that one of the top ten best games ever made was developed under these conditions.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,172
It's alsays interesting to hear about the starts of Retro in more recent articles, even if a lot of it treads the same grounds as previous pieces. But I always learn at least one thing new about it.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,571
Geez it sounds like an absolute miracle that Prime turned out the way it did. Feels awful to know under which conditions one of my favourite games was developed.
 

Cybersai

Banned
Jan 8, 2018
11,631
I'm also amazed it came out so fast in 2002. The Gamecube only came out in 2001...it took them only a year into the consoles life to make a great game.
 

boi

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,769
I read something about this before. Absolutely insane how they made Metroid Prime in this environment. How was that even possible?
 

ignata

Member
Dec 26, 2017
825
Denver
"Miyamoto didn't like the Metroid series, in terms of the old Metroids. He doesn't get them; those aren't the types of games he likes to play," an anonymous former Retro employee says.

Ugh this doesn't surprise me. I will always be thankful and appreciative for what Miyamoto did for the industry but good grief he needed to leave after Ocarina and I truly believe he still does. I'm shocked that Breath of the Wild even got made after reading this quote.
 

Slam Tilt

Member
Jan 16, 2018
5,585
Ugh this doesn't surprise me. I will always be thankful and appreciative for what Miyamoto did for the industry but good grief he needed to leave after Ocarina and I truly believe he still does.
Because disgruntled former employees are the best source for objective evaluation of their superiors' strengths and weaknesses?
 

evilmonkey

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,481
Canada
Ugh this doesn't surprise me. I will always be thankful and appreciative for what Miyamoto did for the industry but good grief he needed to leave after Ocarina and I truly believe he still does. I'm shocked that Breath of the Wild even got made after reading this quote.
He still made lots of influential titles after that and is still active despite not having that big of a role anymore. There's bound to be genres he doesn't get. There's no single developer that will understand every type of game, and that's why there are many other creators he can fall back on, like Sakamoto in this example.

Aonuma didn't get the original Zelda and never found it enjoyable, but that didn't stop him from directing and producing some of the best Zelda games ever made.
 

Shpeshal Nick

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,856
Melbourne, Australia
Geez it sounds like an absolute miracle that Prime turned out the way it did. Feels awful to know under which conditions one of my favourite games was developed.

It's bitter sweet.

Stuff like that should NEVER happen to people, but at the same time I love reading the stories on how incredible games came from horrible/unlikely/unworkable situations. Halo CE was similar I believe.
 

Mcjmetroid

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,843
Limerick, Ireland
He still made lots of influential titles after that and is still active despite not having that big of a role anymore. There's bound to be genres he doesn't get. There's no single developer that will understand every type of game, and that's why there are many other creators he can fall back on, like Sakamoto in this example.

Aonuma didn't get the original Zelda and never found it enjoyable, but that didn't stop him from directing and producing some of the best Zelda games ever made.

I believe he has a large influence yes but OOT was the last game Miyamoto was the lead director on I believe.

He practically directed Pikmin though really I'm sure.
 
Ugh this doesn't surprise me. I will always be thankful and appreciative for what Miyamoto did for the industry but good grief he needed to leave after Ocarina and I truly believe he still does. I'm shocked that Breath of the Wild even got made after reading this quote.
...but he's the one that helped get Retro on the right course for Metroid Prime to happen.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,050
the Retro story is the only reason i didn't have a heart attack upon hearing mercury steam was on the metroid 2 remake

It's obviously not feasible that every game gets the patient nurturing MP1 got, but it just makes you wonder how many other unborn classics there are from studios that were forced to launch, had bad management, were close to a killer idea but couldn't quite pull it off under constraints, or some other pitfall.
 
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Majukun

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,542
I still remember when i read the news on a videogame magazine of the first "revolution" nintendo made at retro studios..it was a rocky start for sure
 

Plankton2

Member
Dec 12, 2017
2,670
Cool article, yea Retro was kinda a shit show before the Prime games happened.

Like I think this tells you a lot

One issue was a lack of access to GameCube development kits. As Hughes recalls, for a while Retro only had one. "Unfortunately, we had a relatively junior guy as our first technical director who didn't know much about rendering and it sat in his office for a long time, not even powered up

I also like that some screens still exist of there cancelled projects before Prime (like the car combat game). Would've been really cool to see what direction they ended up taking if they were more further along, or had more cohesive management in those games. They always had the talent but the management was yea...bad
$
 
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Advc

Member
Nov 3, 2017
2,632
And this is why I have a lot of respect towards this studio. Even if most of the employes that worked on the Metroid Prime trilogy are not longer working at Retro. Despite the terrible environment and circumstances, they managed to create a GOAT game. So looking forward to see what they've been working for the Switch!
 

ChunkyChowder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
270
Ugh this doesn't surprise me. I will always be thankful and appreciative for what Miyamoto did for the industry but good grief he needed to leave after Ocarina and I truly believe he still does. I'm shocked that Breath of the Wild even got made after reading this quote.

If he had left the company after OoT, he never would have chosen Retro to work on Metroid in the first place.
 

Illusion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,407
And now they make Nintendo's leftovers because they decide their own projects ???

Biggest waste of talent studio. Hope their next game isn't the Star Fox Racing and is something worth their teams talent.
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,662
Ugh this doesn't surprise me. I will always be thankful and appreciative for what Miyamoto did for the industry but good grief he needed to leave after Ocarina and I truly believe he still does. I'm shocked that Breath of the Wild even got made after reading this quote.

Considering how they sell, Miyamoto not getting them is indeed not surprising, but not in the way you think. Niche gonna niche.

And yet, he is the one responsible for Metroid Prime's major gameplay idea.

Also lol at BotW. You know it was heavily based on the gameplay ideas of the first Zelda game that Miyamoto himself conceptualized, right?

And now they make Nintendo's leftovers because they decide their own projects ???

Biggest waste of talent studio. Hope their next game isn't the Star Fox Racing and is something worth their teams talent.

"Where's my Uncharted clone, Nintendo?!"

Never mind that Metroid was most likely considered a waste going by the post-Super Metroid hiatus.
 
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NeonStars

Member
Feb 23, 2018
850
And now they make Nintendo's leftovers because they decide their own projects ???

Biggest waste of talent studio. Hope their next game isn't the Star Fox Racing and is something worth their teams talent.
Many would argue that DKTF is their best game.

And Have to ask what exactly is worth their talents? Generic Open world/Souls/RPG number 34? The way I see it any game that turns out great is worthy of their name.
 
The origins of the studio come from Acclaim games, right?
Yeah. Spanenberg and several others got their start at a company called Iguana Entertainment and worked on the Turok series, along with a lot of N64 titles due to being part of the "Dream Team" that NoA had helped to establish. I think they were also responsible for the home console ports of NBA Jam, as well.
 

MrT-Tar

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 2, 2017
745
Everytime I read about early Retro, I'm honestly amazed they managed to get themselves together and produce one of the best games of all time
 

JustinBailey

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,596
Haha I remember the Sinful Summer thing - I forgot it was called that. There has been a lot of scandal with Retro.

Fucking Donkey Kong is another one that I will never forget.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,661
It's kind of weird thinking that in some ways metroid prime, and the first ironman had a lot of similarities in how they happened.
 

Zedelima

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,718
I think its a good story to tell, because they went to a 99% chance of failure to make one of the best games ever made, and become a top team developer.

Never give up, indeed
 

MicH

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,495
Absolutely incredible that Metroid Prime turned out the way it did given the circumstances surrounding it.
 

Deleted member 3815

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,633
And now they make Nintendo's leftovers because they decide their own projects ???

Biggest waste of talent studio. Hope their next game isn't the Star Fox Racing and is something worth their teams talent.

Post like these are why I am not too fussed what Retro or any studio are working as I am not one of those folks under the delusion that their talent is being "wasted." Folk said that about Tropical Freeze and it's one of their best work and even surpasses Returns, clearly a work of passion and effort went into it.

All you are doing is demoralizing a studio over something that you haven't even seen and the guise that there talent is being wasted which is code for "I don't like this game and not interested", which is quite frankly really pathetic and laughable.
 

sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,494
A lot of this was reported on as it happened, it was a wild ride. People (me included) were incredulous Nintendo gave them Metroid, and the early previews did not give anyone a sense of security.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Ugh this doesn't surprise me. I will always be thankful and appreciative for what Miyamoto did for the industry but good grief he needed to leave after Ocarina and I truly believe he still does. I'm shocked that Breath of the Wild even got made after reading this quote.

After Miyamoto acted more as a producer and general producer, he also did plenty of good decisions. Let's not act like he just did bad things after it.

I believe he has a large influence yes but OOT was the last game Miyamoto was the lead director on I believe.

He practically directed Pikmin though really I'm sure.

Is he? he's only credited as a producer.

Producer / Supervisor
Shigeru Miyamoto

Directors
Script Director
Toru Osawa

Game System Directors
Yoichi Yamada
Eiji Aonuma

3D System Director/ Character Design
Yoshiaki Koizumi

Program Director
Toshio Iwawaki
 

GlassCup64

Member
Dec 16, 2017
1,133
"Miyamoto didn't like the Metroid series, in terms of the old Metroids. He doesn't get them; those aren't the types of games he likes to play," an anonymous former Retro employee says. "At the end of the day, I don't know what the decision was [that] made them trust us, because there really wasn't much for us to be trusted on … In Japan, Metroid was never really a big thing; it was more of a big thing over here."
So does Miyamoto just give Retro the franchises he apparently doesn't like or what.
 

Cheezeman3000

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jan 5, 2018
1,092
To me, Retro is like Nintendo's western development "plant." It's an excuse to hire western devs to make games that feel different than your typical Japanese Nintendo game but still have that Nintendo quality. Looking at it in that light, it's not a total surprise that Nintendo goes to great lengths to vet the people in charge and make sure only the best talent is hired and the greatest secrecy persists. I wish they would find another western studio, although they may be afraid of that spreading their focus too thin. But I'm sure plenty of western devs would jump at the chance to indirectly work for Nintendo.
 

JasoNsider

Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,145
Canada
That was a great read. Amazing that we still get new tidbits about about this era after so long. I remember at the time it was happening, nobody had faith in Prime turning out. It seemed like a "if there's smoke, there's fire" situation x 1000.

I think it's wild to think they went on to create not just one amazing franchise re-visit/re-imagining, but two. Both Donkey Kong games are amazing. I'm tempted to say Tropical Freeze might be the best thing they've ever produced.

Above all, I hope you Retro folk have a better work environment now. We can wait longer for games if it means happier creators.
 

deep_dish

Member
Oct 25, 2017
941
I have always had the suspicion that Retro's crazy early years were one the primary reasons Mr. Iwata decided to pull the power structure more heavily into Japan and pretty much drop any autonomy NoA had. (I think Arakawa & Lincoln retiring was the biggest driver, though)
 
Dec 23, 2017
8,802
Cool article, yea Retro was kinda a shit show before the Prime games happened.

Like I think this tells you a lot



I also like that some screens still exist of there cancelled projects before Prime (like the car combat game). Would've been really cool to see what direction they ended up taking if they were more further along, or had more cohesive management in those games. They always had the talent but the management was yea...bad
$
Still waiting for a ground up retro idea ip from them. I guess I will be waiting for a long time.