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Maple

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,732
Cap is in possession of ALL the infinity stones when he goes back. I know the Russos said that he would deliver the soul stone in Vormir to Red Skull and that's it, BUT... would he though?.

Old Cap literally tells us that he returned all the stones first, then went back to be with Peggy. When he's talking with Sam, he mentioned how he returned all the stones, and then went back to "get some of that life" that Tony has been telling him about.
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,436
Time reversal with the time stone is / can be localized to a particular area. You see this when strange reverses time for the apple, when Thanos reverses time for Vision, etc. Time isn't reversed for things not in that area. So, Tony snaps, you remove his gauntlet, move it out of the area, then reverse time for him until before his snap.

Since when are we to believe it works like that with living beings? Otherwise why wasnt a localized time reversal used to end the Dr Strange movie with Dormammu by simply rolling the guy back into non-existence or weakness? He had to do the entire area then.
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
Old Cap literally tells us that he returned all the stones first, then went back to be with Peggy. When he's talking with Sam, he mentioned how he returned all the stones, and then went back to "get some of that life" that Tony has been telling him about.

I have trouble believing that Cap would give the Soul stone to Red Skull.
 

Deleted member 19844

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,500
United States
Since when are we to believe it works like that with living beings? Otherwise why wasnt a localized time reversal used to end the Dr Strange movie with Dormammu by simply rolling the guy back into non-existence or weakness? He had to do the entire area then.
1. Dormammu exists outside of time in the dark dimension (as it says in the movie) - that's why Strange traps him in a time loop - to give him the experience of being stuck in time. That he exists outside of time is also why Strange can't just "reverse him" back into non-existence.
2. Use of the time stone can (and largely is) localized to an area. All of time is not reversed when using it — only the area the user intends on using it for (examples include Strange with the apple, Strange against Kaecilius (a living being), Thanos with Vision (a living being), etc.)
3. Since it can be used this way, you can remove the gauntlet, move it out, and reverse time for Tony.
 

WizdogC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
476
1. Dormammu exists outside of time in the dark dimension (as it says in the movie) - that's why Strange traps him in a time loop - to give him the experience of being stuck in time. That he exists outside of time is also why Strange can't just "reverse him" back into non-existence.
2. Use of the time stone can (and largely is) localized to an area. All of time is not reversed when using it — only the area the user intends on using it for (examples include Strange with the apple, Strange against Kaecilius (a living being), Thanos with Vision (a living being), etc.)
3. Since it can be used this way, you can remove the gauntlet, move it out, and reverse time for Tony.

Just spit balling here, but I think the issue with rewinding time locally on Tony would be that then that would undo the snap he did. In which case Thanos and his army would reappear along with Tony not dying. At least that's how the logic plays out in my head.
 

Deleted member 19844

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,500
United States
Just spit balling here, but I think the issue with rewinding time locally on Tony would be that then that would undo the snap he did. In which case Thanos and his army would reappear along with Tony not dying. At least that's how the logic plays out in my head.
If you leave the tony-gauntlet on him, sure, but if you remove it then, just like the apple in dr strange, the damage is reversed. ... At least let me believe there's a timeline where dr strange saves him. He could've at least tried!!! (*sniff*)
 

Buddy1103

Member
Jan 8, 2019
540
i was also thinking they could have brought back iron man with the time stone like vision but do it after he dusted Thanos. oh well.
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
I have trouble believing that Cap would give the Soul stone to Red Skull.
Why? He knows if he doesn't he could be potentially causing terrible damage to an entire universe. Cap isn't gonna risk that because of bad blood from WWII. Plus, Red Skull is trapped forever as a stone guardian. I bet Cap got a laugh out of that.
 
Oct 25, 2017
32,296
Atlanta GA
Why? He knows if he doesn't he could be potentially causing terrible damage to an entire universe. Cap isn't gonna risk that because of bad blood from WWII. Plus, Red Skull is trapped forever as a stone guardian. I bet Cap got a laugh out of that.

It's interesting because the Russos apparently said before that Red Skull was free to leave Vormir once Thanos obtained the Stone. I wonder if they were just bullshitting because of what happens in Endgame, or if there's something to that. When Steve goes to return the Soul Stone is Skull even there? Does he simply accept it if so?
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
Why? He knows if he doesn't he could be potentially causing terrible damage to an entire universe. Cap isn't gonna risk that because of bad blood from WWII. Plus, Red Skull is trapped forever as a stone guardian. I bet Cap got a laugh out of that.
IMHO, everything about this - especially the fact that Cap needs to confront Red Skull for the soul stone - hints that we will be seeing that eventually. In a film, in the Falcon and The Winter Soldier series or even as a companion short / epilogue for the Endgame's Blu-ray. Hell, they might even Return the King this and make an extended edition for this eventually. It just feels that isn't over yet.
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,934
I don't like the 'Cap lived in an alternate universe'. 1) it's not as dramatic as Old Steve watching everything alongside us in the background. 2) he was with "another Steve's Peggy" if that makes any sense.

In any case I don't expect any more Evans Cap so I don't care.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,129
I don't like the 'Cap lived in an alternate universe'. 1) it's not as dramatic as Old Steve watching everything alongside us in the background. 2) he was with "another Steve's Peggy" if that makes any sense.

In any case I don't expect any more Evans Cap so I don't care.
it doesnt make a whole lotta sense. its the stones being removed that create an alternate branch or the ancient one needs to elaborate more. you can put the stones back and live in the prime timeline. thats the only way the end scene works or else they suck at this story thing
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
It's interesting because the Russos apparently said before that Red Skull was free to leave Vormir once Thanos obtained the Stone. I wonder if they were just bullshitting because of what happens in Endgame, or if there's something to that. When Steve goes to return the Soul Stone is Skull even there? Does he simply accept it if so?
Even better. Red Skull gets to go free until Cap arrives on Vormir with the stone and he is teleported back and re-shackled. lul
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,055
Appalachia
People keep bringing up having to return on the platform, and while I don't personally think that's necessary to return to the prime timeline (I'll need to rewatch the movie a few times to list out everything that would or would not support that) it seems like everyone's forgetting that Bucky knows Cap's plan.

Pretty certain someone said it way earlier in the thread - if the platform is necessary, why couldn't Bucky just help bring Cap back during some moment where nobody was paying attention? Like, did the film show Cap making the jump immediately after they finished building the new platform? If not, do we expect that everyone's vigilantly watching it the whole time and there wouldn't be an opening for Cap to secretly return?

I guess I'm just the type where if I can come up with something that doesn't break a film's rules on my own with a few minutes of thought, I don't expect the film to explain the whole thing to me.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,300
Time travel in this movie isn't that complicated folks.
This.

As someone who was extremely worried about how they'd handle it in this movie, it's pretty simple. Can't believe we have people looking way to our deep into it.

Like cap appearing on the bench instead of the pod is such a non-issue lol
 

SpankyDoodle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,082
They don't have a good answer for why strange couldn't use the time stone to reverse time for Tony to revive him.
Also, the answer for why it had to be tony is that it was tony's tech that allowed him to transfer the stones to himself without Thanos noticing or being able to stop it.
Did you er forget to change accounts?

BTW if they remove the gauntlet and rewind Tony yes he will heal, but he'll also snap his fingers. Which will probably undo the snap, because even if you're rewinding only Tony and not Thanos, Thanos will still return if you rewind Tony's snap.

Also just accept the man is dead y'all. Contracts or not, this is the culmination of his story arc through 10 years of movies. Cap is always giving him shit about not sacrificing anything, Dr Strange and Tony get into a fight about it in Infinity War, this is his sacrifice, he gave his life to save literally all life in the universe from being erased and rewritten. The Infinity Saga begins and ends with Iron Man. Let the man rest! Pepper told him he could rest now, stop trying to drag him back to life!
 

DeltaRed

Member
Apr 27, 2018
5,746
I don't like the 'Cap lived in an alternate universe'. 1) it's not as dramatic as Old Steve watching everything alongside us in the background. 2) he was with "another Steve's Peggy" if that makes any sense.

In any case I don't expect any more Evans Cap so I don't care.
Old Cap sitting around chilling when he knows the time, date, and place that Bucky is killing Tony's parents would be terrible. Especially after everything in Civil War.

"But he can't change the past"

Well he has changed it by going back and living there so it's a moot point.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Let's not even think about Cap leaving his alternative universe life and likely children and grandchildren potentially forever to come back just to give Sam his shield...rather than just sending the shield back with a goddamn note.

He might not have kids or grandkids or maybe he's approaching the end of his life and said his goodbyes.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
But didn't he create an alternate reality and he wouldve just gone into the future of *that* reality? There's a possibility that he wouldve arrived and there was no one there

This shit is dumb and they did a piss poor job explaining the rules. They dig at BTTF for its time travel but at least the ground rules were clearly laid out

That's not how works. Their wristbands are set to return them to their original timeline not the future of the timeline that they're in.
 

Nacho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,114
NYC
IMHO, everything about this - especially the fact that Cap needs to confront Red Skull for the soul stone - hints that we will be seeing that eventually. In a film, in the Falcon and The Winter Soldier series or even as a companion short / epilogue for the Endgame's Blu-ray. Hell, they might even Return the King this and make an extended edition for this eventually. It just feels that isn't over yet.
That was my intial thought. It makes no sense in infinity war why red skull just happens to be the soul stone dude. Then it finally 'clicks' why that might be when captain eventually will have to interface with him. Making it something that's not seen this movie makes me very suspicious that it's actually important than more than just a character moment...


But then the russos just said nah it's a big nothing, as if it shouldn't have any significance. So either r they're playing coy or they seriously overlooked it and it's a big coincidence.

Some of the end game stuff helps me believe they just didn't think of it. Ends don't seem to be as neatly tied as we'd like and russos seem to be going out of their way to say that none of those lose ends mean anything and they don't care.
 

#1 defender

Member
Oct 27, 2017
889
People keep bringing up having to return on the platform, and while I don't personally think that's necessary to return to the prime timeline (I'll need to rewatch the movie a few times to list out everything that would or would not support that) it seems like everyone's forgetting that Bucky knows Cap's plan.

I'm not bothered that he didn't return to the platform, at least while the characters (and the audience) were watching, but did Bucky really know about his plan? He looked surprised when he first noticed Steve on the bench and alerted the other guys to it.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
This.

As someone who was extremely worried about how they'd handle it in this movie, it's pretty simple. Can't believe we have people looking way to our deep into it.

Like cap appearing on the bench instead of the pod is such a non-issue lol

I swear, it's like someone is desperate to nitpick so they are purposefully ignoring the movie just so they can have something to nitpick.
 

Mariolee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,310
Let's not even think about Cap leaving his alternative universe life and likely children and grandchildren potentially forever to come back just to give Sam his shield...rather than just sending the shield back with a goddamn note.

Lmao let the dude live damn.

Cap has saved the world no less than 6 times, he's allowed to be a little selfish and come back to the prime timeline. Probably said his goodbyes and shit and now is just coming back home.
 

Mariolee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,310
I'm not bothered that he didn't return to the platform, at least while the characters (and the audience) were watching, but did Bucky really know about his plan? He looked surprised when he first noticed Steve on the bench and alerted the other guys to it.

He knew Steve was going to stay with Peggy, but he didn't know for sure whether he'd come back. That's why he's slightly surprised, but still knows what's up.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Let's not even think about Cap leaving his alternative universe life and likely children and grandchildren potentially forever to come back just to give Sam his shield...rather than just sending the shield back with a goddamn note.

I mean...Steve knows Wakanda exists. He knows there's a giant cache of Vibranium out there. He probably could just make another one.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
The CA - Peggy thing seemed obvious to me.

Cap probably went back to the point after he went into the ice, thus the existing Cap of that timeline was gone, while he got to live a full happy life with Peggy. So by the time the Cap of that universe gpt thawed out, our Cap used his Pym particles to return to the present of the prime timeline in order to give Falcon his shield.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
The CA - Peggy thing seemed obvious to me.

Cap probably went back to the point after he went into the ice, thus the existing Cap of that timeline was gone, while he got to live a full happy life with Peggy. So by the time the Cap of that universe gpt thawed out, our Cap used his Pym particles to return to the present of the prime timeline in order to give Falcon his shield.

What I don't get is, why Steve didn't just go back and bring Peggy from that timeline back to his present reality. Then he could have the best of both worlds, i.e. his lady as well as be around his Avenger family - or maybe he couldn't face sticking around after losing Tony Stark.

Edit:
Fricking Google Chrome on mobile with tiny touchscreen buttons and my fat ass fingers!!! I didn't mean to quote myself. Sorry guys.
 

DeltaRed

Member
Apr 27, 2018
5,746
What I don't get is, why Steve didn't just go back and bring Peggy from that timeline back to his present reality. Then he could have the best of both worlds, i.e. his lady as well as be around his Avenger family - or maybe he couldn't face sticking around after losing Tony Stark..
Peggy would have to leave her family, Sharon is her niece so she has siblings. And she founded Shield and tried to improve the world. Would be selfish of Cap to take her away from that.
 

MisterHero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,934
Old Cap sitting around chilling when he knows the time, date, and place that Bucky is killing Tony's parents would be terrible. Especially after everything in Civil War.

"But he can't change the past"

Well he has changed it by going back and living there so it's a moot point.
If he could change the past he wouldn't be saving Tony Prime's parents.

The MCU model of time travel is just lame. The other timelines exist to have Infinity Gems when the prime timeline doesn't, and get horribly messed up when the prime timeline needs them. But if they can't change the past, putting them back wouldn't erase the damage, only lessen it.

Also the prime timeline still doesn't have stones anymore. Maybe they might fix it by Doctor Strange 2, but until then everyone's still doomed.

Banner/Ancient One's dialogue is logically sound, but "Cap went into an alternate universe and marries an alternate Peggy and time travels back" doesn't roll off the tongue very well. It's just not a good plot point.

I'll give them credit for one thing though: they didn't erase the snap. They had the heroes deal with the fallout and save lives where they could.
 

StarCreator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,855
I guess I'm just the type where if I can come up with something that doesn't break a film's rules on my own with a few minutes of thought, I don't expect the film to explain the whole thing to me.
Yeah, but doing that, you then get responses like this:
Because I am not introducing any additional information or context other than what is directly shown on screen. I feel like you are.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,237
I suppose they could introduce Kang now that they have the rights back from Fox. He could merge timelines, play havoc, or as a consequence of those adventures have Cap hop between timelines. Kang did that regularly and still returned to his own.

Creating split timelines could result in his birth in the distant future of one of them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
32,296
Atlanta GA
Black Widow's death is irreversible but Gamora's wasn't? I'm Confused

Two different Gamoras. Prime Timeline Gamora is dead forever

I suppose they could introduce Kang now that they have the rights back from Fox. He could merge timelines, play havoc, or as a consequence of those adventures have Cap hop between timelines. Kang did that regularly and still returned to his own.

Kang's mastery of time travel surely makes him the best fit to follow up the Thanos scenario. And that's exactly right - in other media (I'm thinking partiuclarly of the really great Kang stuff in Avengers EMH) they've adapted the Kang arc so that something Captain America does dooms his timeline and causes him to come face the Avengers and try to return his universe to a proper state (in his eyes at least). They have a really easy way to bring him in with what Cap did.

Like we are all happy Cap got to live his life but surely there must be consequences for such selfish use of time travel.
 
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Oct 26, 2017
2,237
Two different Gamoras. Prime Timeline Gamora is dead forever



Kang's mastery of time travel surely makes him the best fit to follow up the Thanos scenario. And that's exactly right - in other media (I'm thinking partiuclarly of the really great Kang stuff in Avengers EMH) they've adapted the Kang arc so that something Captain America does dooms his timeline and causes him to come face the Avengers and try to return his universe to a proper state (in his eyes at least). They have a really easy way to bring him in with what Cap did.
It'd certainly give them a lot more fluidity in terms of stories they want to tell. I'm thinking of the Disney+ shows they've got in development. With Kang we'd still get a sense of unity between them all.
 

LiK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,094
Alternate timelines. I guess it's just prime fuel for the Disney+ shows.
 

luca

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,520
Btw, about the whole Cap meeting Red Skull. I don't even think anything would happen. There certainly wouldn't be a fight. The Russos says in this same interview that he's a different entity now, and his past conscious may not even exist.

The Red Skull is also no longer the same Red Skull from FA. He is more like a ghost, you could almost say he's a completely different entity now. He only exist to guard the stone, his past conscious may or may not exist anymore.

I wouldn't mind a cool ass fight between modern Steve and Ghost Skull though.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Everyone in Endgame: Going to past doesn't change the future

Era: WHY DIDN'T GOING TO THE PAST CHANGE THE FUTURE!?!
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,055
Appalachia
Yeah, but doing that, you then get responses like this:
lol their response basically denies that a film can be made in a way that deliberately leaves stuff up to interpretation. Way too hardline a stance.

I liked the idea (until the Russos confirmed all of this) that the whole MCU could have taken place in the timeline Cap went back to. Film doesn't support it... but I also don't think it doesn't support it. 😉

He knew Steve was going to stay with Peggy, but he didn't know for sure whether he'd come back. That's why he's slightly surprised, but still knows what's up.
I feel like the part where he encourages Sam to talk to Old Cap implied that he knew Cap planned on handing off the shield, no? Does the film contradict that?
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
How come people were so confused about alternate timelines? Its pretty common sense for there to be parallel dimensions rather than a linear timeline, otherwise the movie's events could not work in the first place

This is how most modern fiction works things out.
 

Deleted member 19844

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,500
United States
Did you er forget to change accounts?
? I made two unrelated points.

BTW if they remove the gauntlet and rewind Tony yes he will heal, but he'll also snap his fingers. Which will probably undo the snap, because even if you're rewinding only Tony and not Thanos, Thanos will still return if you rewind Tony's snap.
A snap without the gauntlet doesn't mean / do anything.

Also just accept the man is dead y'all. Contracts or not, this is the culmination of his story arc through 10 years of movies. Cap is always giving him shit about not sacrificing anything, Dr Strange and Tony get into a fight about it in Infinity War, this is his sacrifice, he gave his life to save literally all life in the universe from being erased and rewritten. The Infinity Saga begins and ends with Iron Man. Let the man rest! Pepper told him he could rest now, stop trying to drag him back to life!
I wanted him to rest with Pepper and Morgan, dammit!!

But in all seriousness, it was a great conclusion. I'm just going to miss the character.
 

smisk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,002
I'm curious when Cap went back to be with Peggy. By the end of the film he's been out of the ice for ~10 years so if he went right back to 1945 he'd be a decade older while she's the same age (thought maybe the serum makes him age more slowly?) My theory is he went out 5 years later or something.

Edit: Once Disney+ comes out I think I'll finally watch Agent Carter. Mb they'll bring it back with Evans in that alternate timeline?
 
Mar 30, 2019
9,065
The way I see it prime Steve went back for Peggy and never went back to the prime timeline. Old Steve is another reality's Steve that was there the whole time. The multiple parallel realities just make this obvious as a possibility. Similar case with the Ancient One, prime Bruce was talking to alternate Ancient One, as shown in Endgame, while in prime timeline an alternate Bruce was talking to prime Ancient One offscreen, during Avengers 1. I love this mind bending shit.
 
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