For folks who don't want to be on 4chan
>Thomas Wayne is up for re-election as mayor
>Arthur Fleck is an advertising clown, and part-time stand-up comedian
>lives with his severely mentally ill mother
>has a crush on his next-door neighbor
>constantly beaten and picked on while working as a clown
>stand up comedy isn’t much better, constantly heckled and booed away
>begins to develop relationship with neighbor after she sees him beaten up
>Arthur hears his comedian idol is going to be at the bar he performs at
>Arthur dresses fully as a clown, hoping it will improve his performance
>set bombs, and his comedy idol roasts him about it afterwards
>Arthur hides his tears by laughing on Gotham subway
>3 wall street boys try to beat the shit out of Arthur and pick on him
>Arthur retaliates against one of them, accidentally breaking his neck
>Arthur runs from the other two
>his psyche slowly starts to break down
>Arthur arrives home to see the Gotham PD have taken his mother away to Arkham after she was found acting hysterically in the apartment complex corridors
>Arthur tries to confide in his neighbor
>he mistakes her compassion for flirting and she rejects him
>his psyche breaks more and more
>we see a few days pass by as Arthur visits his mother in Arkham
>her happy-go-lucky demeanor has faded and she seems extremely depressed
>one night, Arthur receives a call from Arkham
>his mother is dead from a successful suicide attempt
>Arthur completely cracks, deciding to pull off the “Ulitmate Joke”
>Arthur tries to storm into a charity event held by Wayne for his mayoral campaign
>he’s quickly ejected but makes a scene in front of the press that the Waynes don’t care for the working class of Gotham
>passionate speech doesn’t get much love from the press and media but inspires the lower class peoples of Gotham
>Arthur takes his public protesting to the next level, vandalising Wayne’s campaign advertising whilst dressed as his new persona, “The Clown”
>manages to evade arrest in thanks to his followers who cause random acts of violence to distract the police across Gotham
>crime escalates in Gotham to full on riots citywide
>Arthur gets noticed by his idol and is offered a spot to tell the country his side of the story
>his idol assures him the police will not arrest him on set because he technically hasn’t carried out any of the violence against the police
>appears on his show, seemingly indifferent to meeting his idol again
>whilst spouting a load of shit about his philosophies, Arthur seems to threaten Thomas Wayne, promising before voting day, he will be dead
>Arthur’s idol lies about the police and they quickly storm the show to arrest Arthur
>Arthur escapes the building, but not before slashing his former idol’s neck, leaving him to die live on air
>after being chased for some time, Arthur is finally knocked down by a GCPD car and taken to Arkham after being deemed mentally unstable
>Thomas Wayne visits Arthur and brags that his attempt to murder him has failed
>Arthur reveals his Ultimate Joke was not to expose Thomas for his vast wealth and ignorance of the poor, but to show how easily people can be manipulated
>Arthur tells Thomas before he leaves that he never had to kill him, because he’s inspired a whole city that they can do it themselves
>Thomas makes a passing mention before leaving that it seems like a “bad joke”
>Arthur tells him before he goes “Just wait for the punchline”
>cut to a few weeks later
>Bruce Wayne attending his family’s funeral
>notices Arthur in the distance and goes over to him
>Arthur is out of makeup and costume and tries to cheer Bruce up by doing a simple clown routine
>Bruce briefly mentions he doesn’t like clowns
>Arthur tries to force a smile on Bruce’s face before Alfred quickly drags Bruce away and threatens Arthur
Alfred suddenly realises who Arthur is and questions how he is out of Arkham
>Alfred tries to alert the nearby police but turns and sees Arthur is already gone
>we briefly see how Arthur got out
>whilst being treated by a nurse, Arthur hears the nurse whistle Dick Van Dyke’s ‘Put on a Happy Face’ (a song Arthur uses as an anthem for his followers)
>Arthur is given a nurse’s outfit and leaves the building with his followers
>back in the present, Arthur is back in his old apartment, dressing back into his Clown persona
>it’s revealed there were new tenants in Arthur’s apartment but he has killed them
>Arthur bring a bunch of flowers to his neighbor’s door and leaves them
>she sees the flowers left behind, but as she goes to read the note left with them, she’s sprayed by what appears to be some kind of toxin
>Arthur gets in the elevator and hears her slowly choke to death
>Arthur gets into a car with some of his followers wearing clown masks
>after a short drive through Gotham, Arthur makes them stop at a set of stairs we saw at the start of the movie
>Arthur leaves his goons in the car
>he performs one last song and dance as the credits play over the routine (Put on a Happy Face)
>no post-credit scene
>no reference to other villains other than Falcone
>Jim Gordon isn’t a commissioner but is the head detective on Arthur’s case
>120 minute runtime
>most of the movie isn't plot-related, just scenes of Arthur dreaming of a better life as a successful comedian
>a few lines are taken directly from Killing Joke, Dark Knight Returns and the Joker graphic novel
I remember this happening with Passengers, which ended up..fine. People we weirdly up in arms about it.
Why. Bloody why.
Are we really advocating for a world were we don't cast minorities or women in roles where they may die because some shitstain somewhere may get off on it? Is the idea that there's people who can't be portrayed in certain types of stories based on their gender or skin color actually in favour of those people?
Because one thing is avoiding fiction that celebrates the concept of a racially charged murder (which is obviously unacceptable), but if the end result is that whenever we have a script where a character kills a woman we decide we can't cast a black actress if the guy is white, or that - by extention - it shouldn't be a woman at all, so we make the character a man, I don't see how we're not discriminating people. Unless the next step is "we're never going to tell another story that features a man killing a woman". Which again means we're deciding what kind of stories women or PoC can feature in. We shouldn't decide it's acceptable to shape our fiction around the expectations of the worst people, even if to defy them, in my opinion. We shouldn't acknowledge the hateful thoughts unless we want to. If we want to make movies that act as a "fuck you" for people who entertain those ideas, great, but we can't be held at ransom at all times. I don't want to entertain the idea that this would work fine if it was Emma Stone instead of a Zazie Beets in the role. It doesn't feel right. She has every right to be cast in any role.
Now, the Joker killing the girl because she rejects him is a wholly different problem and THERE the actual movie has a responsibility, because if it's the act that destroys the pretense of likeability of the Joker and reveals the antihero as a petty monster, it could even be good. If it's a stepping stone on his progression and it's brushed away in a piece of celebrative fiction, then the movie will deserve all the criticism.
That does not happen in the script. 4Chan made it up.I explained it would be easily solved. Everything is amplified when she's the only woman in the cast. You're misunderstanding me, I'm not saying they can't do this it's how they're going about this is which is problematic. Get several woman and minorities in the cast and this becomes less of an issue. Wouldn't shock me if they don't have many of either behind the scenes.
This would be bad if it was Emma Stone in the role. Where did you get the impression I didn't want Zazie Bets in the role? I'm a fan of hers. Why are jumping to the absolute worst motive?
My entire argument is about your last paragraph.
Oh wow, 4chan made up lies that were built upon scraps of rumors and the official trailer?! Nothing like that has happened before so why would they do that now?!!
The moment I've heard "Jokers origin movie" I knew I would hate it, simply because he has no origin. Dark Knight did this perfectly.It is hard to put this into words but I'll take a stab at it.
Joker is popular.
He's popular because he's not traditional evil.
He's also popular because he makes a great foil for batman.
To have his backstory basically be rooted in very evil acts that are viewed as societal problems is basically asking us to glorify those evil acts.
The only way I think this origin story could work where people who like joker but don't have to deal with inherent problems in liking joker is if he had some type of code of conduct that defined his actions and gave him purpose like Dexter Morgan.
It's him or Sosa so I'm riding with Tony just like I rode with O-Dogg in Menace 2 Society
Are these memes real or are they just ironic? We're a good half-decade past knowing the difference unless you're in on the ground floor.I mean, I don't think Joker being that kind of piece of shit is a problem so much as it is the worship around his character that's hilariously stupid.
Let's see how the rest of the movie treats this. If it's as mediocre as they're implying it is then at least we have the dumb memes to fallback on lol
Liking a bad guy is perfectly natural but when you want to be them unironically? That's not good.
They do already worship him. But the concern that myself (and other have) are that this version will reflect their persecution complex. And by doing so validate them.
Yep. Not sure why everyone got hyped from that incredibly average trailer. This being an average movie is the expectation you should have going in and hope to be pleasantly surprised.
Growing up in the 90's people emulates the bad guys. Specially if you messed with selling drugs.
It was a shitty thing back then, as well.
This is not a static problem, reality and film go back and forth influencing each other. It's a problem directors have had trouble reconciling for decades, so much so many feel guilty and disappointed the message didn't get through. Giving more material for deluded people to idolise the Joker isn't good for society.
So what do you suggest? We don't make certain movies because people you don't like might enjoy them?This is not a static problem, reality and film go back and forth influencing each other. It's a problem directors have had trouble reconciling for decades, so much so many feel guilty and disappointed the message didn't get through. Giving more material for deluded people to idolise the Joker isn't good for society.
That they do it with self awareness to make less problematic depictions. There are more options than making a movie like this and not using the Joker ever.
This is exactly why problematic works are a problem? They normalize harmful views to the point that people don't find them to be problematic. Like, this is exactly the point we're making?
You're essentially asking for censorship or neutering the joker.
this is the straw manniest of straw man arguments. you can depict horrific things in a movie without glorifying them.Man, this argument that people might form a borderline psychopath interpretation on a work of fiction is enough reason to avoid it, it's the same argument we have been hearing regurgitated from ages ago, then just ban all violent media because I'm sure there might be some psycho out there that glorifies it.