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Dec 12, 2017
587
What separates the good games from all-time masterpieces? What takes a game with pretty solid mechanics and gives it that little something special? Tone.

The quality of a game to know what it is, and deliver on that knowledge in every aspect of it's execution is what takes a game to new heights.

Let me give you an example of a few games that do it well, and some that do this poorly.

Spider-Man is a great example of a character, and a game, that was perfectly matched to the developer creating it. Insomniac's easy going, fun loving, wacky gameplay style is so perfect for the web-slinger. The game is bright and colorful, the story isn't overly dark or gritty, and above all, it delivers a powerful positive message. Spider-Man's quips wouldn't seem out of place coming from Ratchet, or Spyro, or the sunset overdrive cast. The game isn't overly difficult and doesn't take itself too seriously...the perfect pairing of developer, IP, and gameplay. This game just wouldn't be the same if it took a darker grittier look at Spider-Man.


Okami is another example that springs to mind. The gameplay is not difficult, the puzzles are super simple and obvious, and the game is extremely long...why is it so beloved? It's because of it's positive and fun-loving nature...there are so many beautiful moments in this game, it really fills your heart like a studio Ghibli movie. Returning the child to the Sparrow Spa, the mystical flute / sword wielder who speaks french, the bear who only moves by rolling on a ball, the sequence where you draw your own disguise as you infiltrate the enemy base. It's such a funny and good hearted game, paired with the beautiful graphics and score...it charms you into falling completely in love with it. How awful would Okami be if it was super serious and dark? It would be a significantly worse game.


But there are dark and serious games that have great tone too, although it takes an exceptionally talented developer to pull this off.

The Last of Us is a significant departure from Naughty Dog's previous outings in terms of mood and tone, but they pull it off perfectly. Contrast the darkness of a character like Joel, to let's say, Booker from Bioshock Infinite, which is a game that fails horribly in this regard. Joel & Ellie are completely believable characters with clear motivations, making it easy to buy into the world they inhabit. They have faults, and their own inner darkness, but that's not all they are. The games graphics and art reflect this too...it's a somber world but it's beautiful, full of color and life...the environments are varied and take advantage of the beautiful natural landscape of the USA.

You immediately understand how Joel is capable of holding someone at gunpoint with a shotgun, and then blowing their head off anyway...or how he came to be tying dudes to chairs and popping off their kneecaps in interrogation. Booker is a blank canvas from the start and within the first 15 minutes of the game, is using the whirligig arms like chainsaws on significantly innocent police officers. I always feel horrible killing these officers in bioshock infinite, and it's due to a failing of the games writing and tone.

Within minutes you go from exploring a pre-WWII, idealic american town, very Norman Rockwell, and perfect (as long as you're white and not Irish), to horrific acts of violence. The little guitar scene that plays in the basement is very touching, and then you run outside and kill more police officers and vox populi...sometimes by lighting them on fire, sometimes by shotgun blast. Once again I stress, this is unfathomable to me how bad this game coming off of Bioshock 1, which nailed this concept. I think the concept of ludonarrative dissonance is more of a tonal problem when you get down to it.

A brief aside : I think Overwatch's popularity is in part due to the positive outlook of it's world and characters. "The world needs more heroes" is certainly the developers reaction to modern times, and them looking to inspire the masses with a colorful, diverse, and largely positive cast of characters.




Think about your all-time favorite games. How many of them look, sound, or feel like Kanye & Lynch, or Army of Two? How many F-bombs are dropped in your GOAT? If your favorite game is pretty gritty and angsty...it's probably extremely consistent throughout the experience.

My point is basically this
: A game that is inconsistent in it's tone, can never be as great as a game that is, and it's a hugely important but seldom discussed factor in how the game holds up over time. Usually more cheerful/positive games are better at this, because the writing talent of most studios is pretty bad, so more developers should stick to "fun first".
 

Linkura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,943
This is absolutely right. Mr. Plinkett makes a similar argument in his prequels reviews.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,293
I really agree OP. While being an amazing game, I'd say the tone of Majora's Mask is a huge reason why it holds up so well and is remembered so fondly.
 

Omar310

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,704
UK
I get what you're saying but I don't know if I necessarily agree. Japanese games, and by extension a lot of different Japanese media, are notorious for being tonaly dissonant yet I still love a ton of them. A game like Persona 5 constantly jumping around from serious plot points to slapstick comedy doesn't change the fact that it's one of my favourite games of the generation.
 

TheJollyCorner

The Fallen
Nov 7, 2017
9,463
Nice thread.

Silent Hill 2 has a truly brilliant melancholy tone. For a horror game, it just feels drenched in sadness and it's not constantly slapping you in the face. It's a quiet, subtle loneliness and sadness that I really haven't experienced to that extent in another game. Rule of Rose and even Silent Hill: Shattered Memories come close, but I don't think either pull it off as well as SH2.
 

Starlatine

533.489 paid youtubers cant be wrong
Member
Oct 28, 2017
30,376
I agree with most parts, except that nailing the tone is essential to a game quality and or success

I find that XCOM2 (and specially WotC) really messes up the tone set by EU/EW but they still manage to be good games carried mostly by the improved gameplay. Just not as enjoyable to me, but many disagree

Nice thread.

Silent Hill 2 has a truly brilliant melancholy tone. For a horror game, it just feels drenched in sadness and it's not constantly slapping you in the face. It's a quiet, subtle loneliness and sadness that I really haven't experienced to that extent in another game. Rule of Rose and even Silent Hill: Shattered Memories come close, but I don't think either pull it off as well as SH2.

I think the best example that can be given about tone and the lack of is comparing Silent Hill 2 to Homecoming (a game that tried to copy many of the things that made SH2 good - with zero success)
 
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Oct 27, 2017
17,973
"The quality of a game to know what it is, and deliver on that knowledge in every aspect of it's execution is what takes a game to new heights." That's a good point, but it's not "tone".

The tone of The Witcher was super consistent, but the swamp and a bit of the combat were slogs to get through. Cannot play through that again because of it.

And the tone of Bioshock 1 changed markedly after the "meeting", and never really recovered.

The tone of The Last of Us was not consistent at all, swinging wildly (Joel's perspective) from "nothing matters" to "why am I doing this" to "this might be important" to "fuck everyone" - and it totally worked.

Now if you mean the quality of a game is in the way the exposition and gameplay consistently work well together, and bring you through the experience just as consistently, then I certainly agree with that. But that can be done successfully no matter if the tone is consistent or inconsistent.
 

Deleted member 42686

User requested account closure
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Apr 26, 2018
1,847
I would say Majora's Mask too. It deals greatly with the tone.
The game has curses and even death stuff, but the tone is done so well that it didn't feel edgy or depressing(and neither shocking). More than that, the game has a presence of funny stuff/characters that at same time didn't sound forced or embarassing.
 
Oct 31, 2017
9,622
I don't really agree that "tone" is the most important indicator of what the distinction is between a "timeless classic" and a "good game", but I think you are somewhat close to what I feel makes this distinction.

There are two things that I think separate the wheat from the chaff: strong art direction and mechanical game feel, and the synergy between these two things. Maybe this is what you're trying to articulate with the idea of tone though?
 

Pancracio17

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
18,711
I agree.
In a great game everything works like a well oiled machine, there are no inconsitencies and everything feels like it fits.
 

Rayman not Ray

Self-requested ban
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Feb 27, 2018
1,486
I strongly disagree. I think tone is often used as a standin for texture, meaning the surface level details of a game. And plenty of games can get those surface level details right, and have nothing going on underneath them. What sticks with me in games is not tone, but story, though story defined somewhat broadly.

Also, "inconsistent" tone is a key part of some of my favorite games ever. Chrono Trigger switches back and forth between comedic and serious moments, but each step along that journey feels totally earned. The same is true of a lot of great games, which mix humor and drama to create a more compelling emotional arc.
 

jackissocool

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
738
Ohio
Bloodborne is a master class in this exact subject. Throughout the game, every single element of story, setting, and gameplay - even the totally unexpected ones - fit perfectly into an overall, unifying idea.
 

Coconico

Member
Oct 25, 2017
332
Miami
I strongly disagree. I think tone is often used as a standin for texture, meaning the surface level details of a game. And plenty of games can get those surface level details right, and have nothing going on underneath them. What sticks with me in games is not tone, but story, though story defined somewhat broadly.

Also, "inconsistent" tone is a key part of some of my favorite games ever. Chrono Trigger switches back and forth between comedic and serious moments, but each step along that journey feels totally earned. The same is true of a lot of great games, which mix humor and drama to create a more compelling emotional arc.

I think what OP is referring to is an inconsistency between the actions taken in a game and the presentation of it's world. Bioshock Infinite is horrifying to him because enemies are brutally murdered, lit on fire, etc. in a cavalier fashion whereas the violence of something like The Last of Us is intense, but justified considering the context. Chrono Trigger's tone is actually consistent, despite its narrative shifts between comedic and dramatic, because those shifts are consistent with the thematic tone world they're inhabiting. It makes sense for them to have downtime in the forest on their journey, just as it would make sense for them to mourn the loss of a character. It's about creating an effective suspension of disbelief between the story and the player, which a game like Chrono Trigger does well and is in large part why it's remembered so fondly.
 

Rayman not Ray

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Banned
Feb 27, 2018
1,486
I think what OP is referring to is an inconsistency between the actions taken in a game and the presentation of it's world. Bioshock Infinite is horrifying to him because enemies are brutally murdered, lit on fire, etc. in a cavalier fashion whereas the violence of something like The Last of Us is intense, but justified considering the context. Chrono Trigger's tone is actually consistent, despite its narrative shifts between comedic and dramatic, because those shifts are consistent with the thematic tone world they're inhabiting. It makes sense for them to have downtime in the forest on their journey, just as it would make sense for them to mourn the loss of a character. It's about creating an effective suspension of disbelief between the story and the player, which a game like Chrono Trigger does well and is in large part why it's remembered so fondly.

That doesn't line up with how people often talk about tone. For example, some of the criticism of Last Jedi was around "Inconsistent tone." This was, as far as I can tell, not a critique of the thematic consistency of the film, but that people didn't like the balance between humor and drama. I thought the movie was totally thematically consistent in fact, but let's not start another Star War here.

So yeah, we may be getting a bit into semantic argument territory, but I'd define tone as a vehicle for story, rather than the other way around.
 

carlosrox

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,270
Vancouver BC
This is why it took me so long to warm up to indie games, and still have problems with some of them out there.

I think this thread idea would work the same with music, though music is also a big part of tone.

But something like The Messenger is basically something I refuse to play cuz I can't stand the tone of it.

Bayonetta is another.

I agree with the premise of this thread very much.
 

'3y Kingdom

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,494
What tone does Tetris have?

I think the OP would make more sense if it was framed around cohesiveness, rather than tone. Games that have no or dissonant tone can still be wonderful to play because of how well they come together.
 
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Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
This is why I tend to bounce off a lot of SNES-era RPGs, I think. Final Fantasy VI, for example, has some amazing atmosphere in certain parts... which is then immediately overshadowed by jokey jokes. I'm pretty sure Cyan blushes at a woman hitting on him something like 5 minutes after seeing the ghosts of his dead family. Or the whole beautiful opera scene being crashed by a giant octopus. It just doesn't work for me, for the most part.

The blend of humor and seriousness can definitely be achieved, though. Spider-Man PS4 has Peter go through rough patches and you see his confidence slowly build back up, and to make it even easier the weather and time of day changes accordingly.

As for another good example, Breath of the Wild nails its beautiful dystopia vision perfectly. Everything is very pretty but tinged with a certain sadness, with things like the music being incredibly subdued. When you discover settlements it's jarring in a brilliant way, thanks to the constant, more lively music and actual NPCs to talk to. It's just very well crafted in delivering its tone, though most Zelda games do.
 

Rayman not Ray

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This is why I tend to bounce off a lot of SNES-era RPGs, I think. Final Fantasy VI, for example, has some amazing atmosphere in certain parts... which is then immediately overshadowed by jokey jokes. I'm pretty sure Cyan blushes at a woman hitting on him something like 5 minutes after seeing the ghosts of his dead family. Or the whole beautiful opera scene being crashed by a giant octopus. It just doesn't work for me, for the most part.

This is exactly why consistency of tone is something that I think is overrated. I love SNES era RPGs. There's something compelling to me about moving between humor and drama, goofiness and seriousness, that gives the game a broader emotional spectrum. The drama hits harder when it's preceded by goofiness.

What's actually important in games is having the tone consistent with the content. The worst thing is when a game treats something as incredibly serious when it's actually goofy. Looking at you Batman Arkham City.
 
OP
OP
TheSubsequentStrajack
Dec 12, 2017
587
I get what you're saying but I don't know if I necessarily agree. Japanese games, and by extension a lot of different Japanese media, are notorious for being tonaly dissonant yet I still love a ton of them. A game like Persona 5 constantly jumping around from serious plot points to slapstick comedy doesn't change the fact that it's one of my favourite games of the generation.

I thought about the weird juxtaposition in regards to MGS as well...I think it works in MGS because it KNOWS it's being super serious one moment, and completely ridiculous the next. As if Kojima is totally in on the joke. You're laughing WITH the game, not at it.

I think Persona is self-aware too.
 

Doomguy Fieri

Member
Nov 3, 2017
5,263
sopranos4.jpg


Christofah!
 
OP
OP
TheSubsequentStrajack
Dec 12, 2017
587
I think what OP is referring to is an inconsistency between the actions taken in a game and the presentation of it's world. Bioshock Infinite is horrifying to him because enemies are brutally murdered, lit on fire, etc. in a cavalier fashion whereas the violence of something like The Last of Us is intense, but justified considering the context. Chrono Trigger's tone is actually consistent, despite its narrative shifts between comedic and dramatic, because those shifts are consistent with the thematic tone world they're inhabiting. It makes sense for them to have downtime in the forest on their journey, just as it would make sense for them to mourn the loss of a character. It's about creating an effective suspension of disbelief between the story and the player, which a game like Chrono Trigger does well and is in large part why it's remembered so fondly.

There's just so much that DOESN'T fit in BioShock Infinite. Why are there plasmids in this society? What is the point of the big daddy stand ins? Why are their people with horns on their head?
 

Omar310

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,704
UK
I thought about the weird juxtaposition in regards to MGS as well...I think it works in MGS because it KNOWS it's being super serious one moment, and completely ridiculous the next. As if Kojima is totally in on the joke. You're laughing WITH the game, not at it.

I think Persona is self-aware too.
Yeah, that's a really good way of looking at it. I guess in someway, the self awareness is kinda a tone of it's own. When I look at it that way, I guess I agree.
 

Jessie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,921
Final Fantasy VI and VII are really funny and charming, on top of the crushing darkness and despair.

People tend to focus on the emo aspects of the characters, but Cloud totally went snowboarding 5 minutes after Aerith's death.
 
Jan 15, 2018
840
There's just so much that DOESN'T fit in BioShock Infinite. Why are there plasmids in this society? What is the point of the big daddy stand ins? Why are their people with horns on their head?

All of that is actually explained, just not in the main story as it isn't the focus. Theres Voxophone that showcases how, using tears, Jeremiah Fink has been speaking to Dr. Suchong, creator of Plasmids, Big Daddies, and Little Sisters. Fink didn't uderstand why Suchong made them injectable instead of indigestible, which is how vigors were born. A lot of the technology was traded, and Fink even stole a lot of it.

It's the same method as to how all the songs from way in the future appear in the 20's.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,985
Tone matters for good stories but there are many great games that shift dramatically in tone, especially open world, mission-based games.

For instance, Red Dead Redemption can go from having a happy-go-lucky-incompetent-allies tone, to a deadly serious, women-are-being-raped-and-murdered tone in the turn of one or two missions. In one mission, an incompetent Irish huckster is pulling you across a river as his former "friends" reign down bullets in what's a pretty comic exchange, followed up with a dramatic audio interlude as you ride wistfully through Mexico. This is often considered one of the heights of RDR, "When you first get to Mexico," and yet, the tone is dramatically different than the 5mins that preceded it, and fairly different from the hour prior that preceded that. The game ambles back and forth between this sort of wistful optimism, and then moments of deep, sad dread. RDR is often considered one of the greatest games of all time. I'd contrast this to GTAV, which has a very consistent tone throughout, but it makes for a much worse story and experience. The tone is consistent but it wears on you (or at least, it wore on me)... This incessant sardonic uselessness of the whole world and characters, at some point I just wanted to shake my screen and say "If you hate making videogames so much, and hate the people who play them, why do you even bother?"

A terrific game with incoherent tone is Resident Evil 4. This is often considered many people's best game of all time, but it has a schizophrenic tone throughout. Deadly serious horror moments, followed by bizarre man-child dressed as Napoleon chiding you, followed by upskirt crawling sequences. RE4 is a game that is completely tonally different when you get to the end of the game, it barely resembles itself from the beginning. You think it's a survival horror game going in, with zombie-like humanoids in a scary, fog-drenched town, all alone with no ammo and no bullets, followed up by teenage-ish girl with large breasts and short skirt crawling beneath tables as a man-child tries to maniacally kill you.

Likewise with MGS or MGS2. In one scene, Solid Snake is sneaking onto a cargo ship in driving rain to prevent the end of the world through deadly espionage. Later, you're controlling a naked man who runs with hands-over-junk.

These are all good games, some of the best games, and yet the tone is frenetic, inconsistent, it changes dramatically. And yet, there are a handful of games that have a consistent tone throughout that I think are pretty average.

Call of Duty games (the new ones) all have this "24" style tone, completely serious, unflinching, the world is ending bull shit, they're very consistent throughout, taking themselves so seriously, but the games just aren't very good (IMO). I agree that Bioshock Infinite is not a very good game, but I don't think it's because of the tone. I think the tone is consistent for the most part, but the pacing is very, very bad, or at least, it's start-stop pacing does not appeal to me at all.

One game that I'd say has near perfect tone and pacing is Half-Life 2, even despite the overly long water level to start the game.
 
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Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
*wakes up* Woah, someone made the topic about "tone" so I didn't have to!

I've literally contemplated on writing about this thing for months but haven't ever gotten myself to formulate the thoughts properly. But yes, tone is so fucking important and that goes for art in general. A song or piece of music abides by the rules of consistency of tone (consistency =/= rigidity), a movie has to carry the mood properly and a game has to sell what it lets the player do in tandem with its songs and movies or whichever media it includes in the gameplay experience as a confluence of tonality (Holy big smack in the face-- what an important-sounding term!)

People don't care to notice tone enough. Oooh my god the amount of times I've clawed my own face off in frustration when discussing that Mass Effect ending controversy with other people that disliked it only to find out they wanted something that alienated the tone it was going for while I just wanted them to do it properly to support the way it built up with that tone in mind... Or, the amount of times I've seen people "cry" over something "emotional" in a game while scoffing at it myself because said moment didn't know what it wanted itself to be.

Or let's look at Anthem and its big floating letters or the way it puts this sort of Iron Man appeal into a Dragon Ageian, Mass Effectian fictional world and somehow the tone is at odds somewhere in between all this and you're left thinking "what is the tone of this game??"

PS. I'm seeing people mention and generalize indie games (generalize as in, in general, not "all") in regards to how they often don't pick a fitting tone and holy shit, what is going on Era? You're hitting jackpot with me on this topic. I go to a discord in which I'm singled out and notorious for being the "indie game hater" and I mean, *standing ovation* thank you OP, this topic speaks to my stone-cold heart! and boy is my tone of writing getting weirder the more I write on this.
 

jon bones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,998
NYC
Tone can be SUPER important.

It's why I love XCOM 1 & 2. Both games are excellent, but also perfectly encapuslate two different tones.

One is scary, the unknown are here to hunt you. You are on the defense, slowly pushing through and trying to get Sats up around the world.

Two is bold, you have lost but it is time to fight back. You are on the offense, aggressively rushing to spread out and find help around the world.
 
OP
OP
TheSubsequentStrajack
Dec 12, 2017
587
All of that is actually explained, just not in the main story as it isn't the focus. Theres Voxophone that showcases how, using tears, Jeremiah Fink has been speaking to Dr. Suchong, creator of Plasmids, Big Daddies, and Little Sisters. Fink didn't uderstand why Suchong made them injectable instead of indigestible, which is how vigors were born. A lot of the technology was traded, and Fink even stole a lot of it.

It's the same method as to how all the songs from way in the future appear in the 20's.

I remember that he got the idea from peering into a tear and seeing Suchong, but vigors are not deeply woven into the story of Infinite the same way that they were in Bioshock. Why didn't vigors completely destroy this society like plasmids did to rapture? They seem to have been brought over purely for gameplay consistency between the two games.
 
OP
OP
TheSubsequentStrajack
Dec 12, 2017
587
*wakes up* Woah, someone made the topic about "tone" so I didn't have to!

I've literally contemplated on writing about this thing for months but haven't ever gotten myself to formulate the thoughts properly. But yes, tone is so fucking important and that goes for art in general. A song or piece of music abides by the rules of consistency of tone (consistency =/= rigidity), a movie has to carry the mood properly and a game has to sell what it lets the player do in tandem with its songs and movies or whichever media it includes in the gameplay experience as a confluence of tonality (Holy big smack in the face-- what an important-sounding term!)

People don't care to notice tone enough. Oooh my god the amount of times I've clawed my own face off in frustration when discussing that Mass Effect ending controversy with other people that disliked it only to find out they wanted something that alienated the tone it was going for while I just wanted them to do it properly to support the way it built up with that tone in mind... Or, the amount of times I've seen people "cry" over something "emotional" in a game while scoffing at it myself because said moment didn't know what it wanted itself to be.

Or let's look at Anthem and its big floating letters or the way it puts this sort of Iron Man appeal into a Dragon Ageian, Mass Effectian fictional world and somehow the tone is at odds somewhere in between all this and you're left thinking "what is the tone of this game??"

PS. I'm seeing people mention and generalize indie games (generalize as in, in general, not "all") in regards to how they often don't pick a fitting tone and holy shit, what is going on Era? You're hitting jackpot with me on this topic. I go to a discord in which I'm singled out and notorious for being the "indie game hater" and I mean, *standing ovation* thank you OP, this topic speaks to my stone-cold heart! and boy is my tone of writing getting weirder the more I write on this.

The tone of Anthem is "The board of directors at EA wants a piece of the Destiny money", and so far they seem to be doing a great job of copying everything I hate about Destiny!
 
OP
OP
TheSubsequentStrajack
Dec 12, 2017
587
Tone matters for good stories but there are many great games that shift dramatically in tone, especially open world, mission-based games.

For instance, Red Dead Redemption can go from having a happy-go-lucky-incompetent-allies tone, to a deadly serious, women-are-being-raped-and-murdered tone in the turn of one or two missions. In one mission, an incompetent Irish huckster is pulling you across a river as his former "friends" reign down bullets in what's a pretty comic exchange, followed up with a dramatic audio interlude as you ride wistfully through Mexico. This is often considered one of the heights of RDR, "When you first get to Mexico," and yet, the tone is dramatically different than the 5mins that preceded it, and fairly different from the hour prior that preceded that. The game ambles back and forth between this sort of wistful optimism, and then moments of deep, sad dread. RDR is often considered one of the greatest games of all time. I'd contrast this to GTAV, which has a very consistent tone throughout, but it makes for a much worse story and experience. The tone is consistent but it wears on you (or at least, it wore on me)... This incessant sardonic uselessness of the whole world and characters, at some point I just wanted to shake my screen and say "If you hate making videogames so much, and hate the people who play them, why do you even bother?"

A terrific game with incoherent tone is Resident Evil 4. This is often considered many people's best game of all time, but it has a schizophrenic tone throughout. Deadly serious horror moments, followed by bizarre man-child dressed as Napoleon chiding you, followed by upskirt crawling sequences. RE4 is a game that is completely tonally different when you get to the end of the game, it barely resembles itself from the beginning.

Likewise with MGS or MGS2. In one scene, Solid Snake is sneaking onto a cargo ship in driving rain to prevent the end of the world through deadly espionage. Later, you're controlling a naked man who runs with hands-over-junk.

These are all good games, some of the best games, and yet the tone is frenetic, inconsistent, it changes dramatically. And yet, there are a handful of games that have a consistent tone throughout that I think are pretty average.

Call of Duty games (the new ones) all have this "24" style tone, completely serious, unflinching, the world is ending bull shit, they're very consistent throughout, taking themselves so seriously, but the games just aren't very good (IMO). I agree that Bioshock Infinite is not a very good game, but I don't think it's because of the tone. I think the tone is consistent for the most part, but the pacing is very, very bad, or at least, it's start-stop pacing does not appeal to me at all.

One game that I'd say has near perfect tone and pacing is Half-Life 2, even despite the overly long water level to start the game.

Discussed above, there are many japanese games that have tones that are all over the place, but they are totally self-aware and laughing at themselves. It's when a game takes itself too seriously and can't pull it off that you run into problems.
 

facepalm007

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,095
Yeah, I agree, although personally my main issue with a lot of video game writing has more to do with "tonal pacing" rather than just "tone". Sometimes I feel that it's necessary to have a "break" in certain tones at times, like the giraffe scene in The Last of Us. Good writers would know how to balance the "hot" and "cold" elements of the story and incorporate "a bit of joy" in an otherwise dreary world.

Also another issue I have with video game stories and tones, is the lack of focus gameplay wise in a serious part of the games story (like having the player be able to do side missions during an important mission type of thing).
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,985
Discussed above, there are many japanese games that have tones that are all over the place, but they are totally self-aware and laughing at themselves. It's when a game takes itself too seriously and can't pull it off that you run into problems.

This seems like a copout. If tone is the thing that separates merely good games from great games, I don't think we can be so forgiving that "Japanese developers are totally self-aware and are laughing at themselves," when the tone does dramatically shift in a game like Resident Evil 4 or MGS.

I'm not saying that MGS or RE4 are bad, or are even tonally bad games, but just that there's a major difference in tone from how the games present themselves in one scene, to how the games present themselves in another. Even if the developer is self-aware, it's certainly different. Resident Evil is probably the best example of one that is a great game, one of the best games of all time, and yet the tone is all over the place. You go barely escaping through this Spanish town of crazed zombie-like cultists as you're trying to uncover a deep and dark mystery, to stumbling into a room where a guy -- untouched by the viral zombie apocalypse -- just happens to be standing there talking with a hackneyed accent ... "Waat're'ye buying? Waat're'ye sellin'?"

I'm okay with the game still being considered great despite frenetic tone differences from one scene to the next. But, I think if tone is the separator between merely good and great games, then I think it would disqualify a game like Resident Evil 4 from being a great game. I don't think that tone is the separator, though, I think you can have great games that have inconsistent tone, and even some games are made better by inconsistent tone (as I ultimately like RE4 more because it completely shifts my expectations and surprises me).
 

Kcannon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,661
Discussed above, there are many japanese games that have tones that are all over the place, but they are totally self-aware and laughing at themselves. It's when a game takes itself too seriously and can't pull it off that you run into problems.

I don't like how self-awareness is being used here as an universal justification for tonally-dissonant games being great, just so OP's argument can stand.
 

zoodoo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,734
Montreal
I agree with you OP. The greatest games all follow this rule.

Super metroid
Bloodborne
Hollow Knight
Darks souls
 

Rayman not Ray

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Feb 27, 2018
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Yeah, reading more posts here has made it clear that the concept of tone is so ill-defined to be useless.
 

Asbsand

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Oct 30, 2017
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The tone of Anthem is "The board of directors at EA wants a piece of the Destiny money", and so far they seem to be doing a great job of copying everything I hate about Destiny!
I think Anthem is indeed the first time where I'm just 100% like "okay, this is because of EA more than anything." with BioWare.

I even felt Mass Effect 3, besides all the DLC and other controversies, had things in it that felt very, very EA-esque compared to the previous two games but I just never jumped the gun on whether that was "because EA" or if it was just because BioWare's staff was changing but I guess in reality it's a mix of both. There's the 'tone at the top' which first affected Greg and Ray as CEOs of their own company, then having to answer to a bunch of suits (I mean, they were the suits of BioWare but they were relaxed as far as 'suits' go) and then that comes with corporate attitudes to show for the rest of BioWare, new office politics, then they left and Patrick Soderlund became the new spokesperson for the "BioWare Division of EA", then there's also EA hires like producers (How many producers did BioWare have prior to EA again?).

Aaryn Flynn who used to be the GM hushed and defended EA to Kotaku while at the same time telling Game Informer "Yeah, we just showed the latest build of our new IP to Andrew Wilson and he seemed impressed!" like... okay maybe EA isn't all "Thou shalt not X, Y, Z..." but they are really creatively influential once you acknowledge that they're the guys the company which they own have to pitch their game to. A game pitch that a suit doesn't see great revenue potential in is a game they don't want to greenlight both for the sake of their corporate company's stability but also because... hey, it's all "business" and then it's all about growth and revenue.

So yeah, I'm babbling but there's the tone of the product but which undeniably comes from the tone of the company which is deeply affected by the 'tone at the top'.

Wikipedia for my deepfound and vastly intelligent knowledge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_at_the_top
 
OP
OP
TheSubsequentStrajack
Dec 12, 2017
587
I think Anthem is indeed the first time where I'm just 100% like "okay, this is because of EA more than anything." with BioWare.

I even felt Mass Effect 3, besides all the DLC and other controversies, had things in it that felt very, very EA-esque compared to the previous two games but I just never jumped the gun on whether that was "because EA" or if it was just because BioWare's staff was changing but I guess in reality it's a mix of both. There's the 'tone at the top' which first affected Greg and Ray as CEOs of their own company, then having to answer to a bunch of suits (I mean, they were the suits of BioWare but they were relaxed as far as 'suits' go) and then that comes with corporate attitudes to show for the rest of BioWare, new office politics, then they left and Patrick Soderlund became the new spokesperson for the "BioWare Division of EA", then there's also EA hires like producers (How many producers did BioWare have prior to EA again?).

Aaryn Flynn who used to be the GM hushed and defended EA to Kotaku while at the same time telling Game Informer "Yeah, we just showed the latest build of our new IP to Andrew Wilson and he seemed impressed!" like... okay maybe EA isn't all "Thou shalt not X, Y, Z..." but they are really creatively influential once you acknowledge that they're the guys the company which they own have to pitch their game to. A game pitch that a suit doesn't see great revenue potential in is a game they don't want to greenlight both for the sake of their corporate company's stability but also because... hey, it's all "business" and then it's all about growth and revenue.

So yeah, I'm babbling but there's the tone of the product but which undeniably comes from the tone of the company which is deeply affected by the 'tone at the top'.

Wikipedia for my deepfound and vastly intelligent knowledge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_at_the_top

Anyone who doesn't think EA massively interferes with the creative development of games needs to look at how Fuse turned out after it was originally planned as "Overstrike"
 

Asbsand

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Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
Anyone who doesn't think EA massively interferes with the creative development of games needs to look at how Fuse turned out after it was originally planned as "Overstrike"
Or just look at everything Insomniac has created and then see how conspicuously Fuse was their most clinical title ever.

Same thing with Bungie and Destiny or inb4 Sekiro and Fromsoft. You could tell that trailer was an activision job at least.
 

Deleted member 2595

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Oct 25, 2017
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Completely correct OP - but maintaining tone is absurdly difficult and needs tons of back-end work to cut, trim, control, re-do, etc...

It sounds easy but by god it's the hardest thing (and is more expensive than many games can afford)
 
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Heroin Cat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
673
New Zealand
Stalker: Shadow of Chernobyl is one of the first games that made me feel 100% immersed in a game. It had atmosphere, yes, but it also had the tone. The game is largely quite dire, but there are moments of calm that really just feel like brief interludes. It's the little Stalker gathering around a burning oil drum with vodka and salami and a guitar. The Zone is still deadly and will never get better... but it's inhabitants can still eek out moments of peace and enjoyment amidst everything else.
 

Asbsand

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Oct 30, 2017
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Denmark
Completely correct OP - but maintaining tone is absurdly difficult and needs tons of back-end work to cut, trim, control, re-do, etc...

It sounds easy but by god it's the hardest thing (and is more expensive than many games can afford)
In the end tone is a matter of artistry and taste. If everyone is aware of it and the vision from the top is clear enough it works, look at the Arkham games. I think the fault of many AAAs lately and BioWare is that they don't employ good enough talent, first thing, (but used to with ME1 and KOTOR) but hired more and more middling talent so they have too many cooks in the kitchen and they get a lot of half baked design and medicre executed things into the game and because it's done by teams that are too big it adds to the inconsistency.

Their leads would brag as a way of reassuring us their next game would be good by bean counting: "oh, this time we have 8 writers and 5 editors!" And "You know, there was 40k lines of spoken dialogue in the last game but this time there is 60k lines of dialogue so the game is bigger!" And yet the result is that because of this bloat of additional dialogue they stopped doing half of it in cinedesign (cinematically designed sequences - instead just static NPCs without special animation or even dialogue choices).

Ubisoft and many others do that too. "HEY THIS GAME IS BIGGER!" and the result is a more bloated game with less attention to detail from their workload being spread too thin; to their huge teams being spread too wide; to their content being spread too thin.
 

Deleted member 2595

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In the end tone is a matter of artistry and taste.
I'd broadly agree with everything in your post but you're side-stepping the actual grinding reality of game dev, at which point tone also requires a massive amount of money (high-end specialist talent, lots of capacity and time for checking and tweaking and editing that often can't be afforded). For instance having a strong leadership group (e.g. lead designer, lead artist and lead writers working in tandem) can really help glue tone in a game, but that demands a ton of money. Lacking in any one of these may result in tone getting really inconsistent.

It's clear how much this is being valued in the industry now, though. This year we've had so many stunning examples of tone. GoW, Spider-Man,
 

RestEerie

Banned
Aug 20, 2018
13,618
Bloodborne.....my kind of tone

also, MGS3 has that James Bond/Cold War era/GI Joe tone that totally works.
 

Aureon

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Oct 27, 2017
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This doesn't really apply to gameplay-first titles, like Factorio, i guess.
.. But still can: See: Darkest Dungeon.

FFIX's tone is all about nostalgia, and god if it strikes out.