The Verge - Google Stadia hands-on: near-flawless Doom Eternal running on a Chromebook

FallenHeroX1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
723
There may be some point in the future where we all stream games, but that reality, if it ever comes will be long after we are all dead. Much like how streaming movies and music haven't squelched physical media in those mediums, streaming games has even more hurdles to over come. Near flawless in ideal circumstances sounds concerning when I consider how the fastest internet available to me still lags while streaming youtube videos.
 

hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
2,375
This is presumably an area where Linux is a big advantage. Not because Linux necessarily is way snappier than Windows, but because Google will have what they need to observe, profile and improve it. If they went with Windows, they'd be at MS' mercy to solve these kinds of issues.
Exactly! With their own hardware running the way they want it, it's very easy to do things like tune the kernel parameters to eek out every last bit of performance timing they can. In some scenarios tuning the thing to the specific architecture (say, using an Intel or AMD, but not a general x86_64 module) and turning off items they won't need for compatibility will make a difference in the long run. The fewer workers hitting the CPU for any reason the better, regardless of how fast the CPU is. Cycles are cycles.

It's also arguably faster for VM deployment. Azure and HyperV are nice and all but there are a multiple ways to skin the cat with Linux VMs and deployment that make them a much faster build and tear-down.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,419
~90% of "healthy skepticism" on this topic actually manifests itself in concern trolling or sarcastic mocking. I don't think anybody takes issue with healthy skepticism, it's when people are trolling a new service or people interested in a new service and then pretending that "They're just asking questions!" or something.

It's pretty easy to tell when "concern" is coming from a place of malicious intent, and when it's an actual technical interest in learning more about something.
I have to agree.

This thread is based on an article which had a good impression of the tech.

If you say I wonder how this will deal with bad connections, companies going out of business or getting sold, etc I think that’s fair.

But that’s not what I am reading from a lot of posts so I was also confused at some of the negativity.

I will definitely try it and if it is blurry or laggy I will come here to give my impression on it. But weird to be so negative on it for this thread at least.
 

TheZynster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,571
Yes I know I was going by what you said that stadia needed a console
the founders kind of does at launch, is the reference I was going to. We have no idea when the base service will be available. Which the base service is equivalent to GeForce now and you wouldn't have to buy your games again. Because GeForce Now just lets you login to your steam, battle net or uplay and use games you already own.
 

BlueManifest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,721
the founders kind of does at launch, is the reference I was going to. We have no idea when the base service will be available. Which the base service is equivalent to GeForce now and you wouldn't have to buy your games again. Because GeForce Now just lets you login to your steam, battle net or uplay and use games you already own.
GeForce now is only free because it’s in beta, I imagine they will offer a free version to stay competitive with stadia though
 

thebishop

Member
Nov 10, 2017
1,059
There may be some point in the future where we all stream games, but that reality, if it ever comes will be long after we are all dead. Much like how streaming movies and music haven't squelched physical media in those mediums, streaming games has even more hurdles to over come. Near flawless in ideal circumstances sounds concerning when I consider how the fastest internet available to me still lags while streaming youtube videos.
This is what games looked like when I first started gaming:


I don't see why folks think streaming can never go from around 80ms to around 30ms.

We've already seen proof of several pretty decent (granted not 100% where I'd like) streaming experiences. Even taking PS Now as a starting point, I think most of us are going to live to see this work. It's at most 5-10 years off, not 50.
 

zerocalories

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,169
we need to end that "negativity " argument there are valid concerns about this technology from people that actually tested in real-world scenarios. So we should keep quiet and just take for granted everything that Company/Media even when our experiences don't match with the expressed in the article.

Been Positive or Negative about Gaming Streaming service doesn't going to make it better or worst.

Companies invest million to know the positive and negative about their services and for some reason here is something that users label as "negativity " and something to be criticized.

C'mon
“The technology isn’t perfect”
Measured response: “that’s okay things can and will get better”
Overblown response: “ I’m not buying this thing because digital foundry says there’s dropped frames, GTFO google”
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,414
If this works as well in the wild, will be a game changer. Folk like the majority of us will buy standard consoles/pc but I feel this thing will blow up with the casual or "I only have a console to but CoD and madden/fifa/2k every year." crowd. Not for me but I'll be damned if it isn't interesting!
 

Dunlop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,128
Sure it does. Healthy skepticism and asking questions is how people learn. Why not engage people on the specifics of the tech?
Every Stadia thread to date has been derailed with numerous posters spreading fud or just stating how they don't want it.

This thread for example is about a positive experience with a demo.. Are your feeling that is still what is being discussed?

It is the xbox360 "pay for online!!", I do not predict many healthy discussions on it.
 

hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
2,375
“The technology isn’t perfect”
Measured response: “that’s okay things can and will get better”
Overblown response: “ I’m not buying this thing because digital foundry says there’s dropped frames, GTFO google”
Yeaaaah, unfortunately this is rampant, even among a few of my friends. There's a lack of understanding or even belief that it can be good enough, let alone good at all, for games. There are certain games I could see being difficult to really make much of , but if you think 30ms is okay that's actually almost better in a lot of cases, when you think of how many games have 30-50ms of latency built-in just because of the system polling rates of USB or bluetooth, not factoring in display lag. I'd be willing to bet that with decent connections we can probably see console-like latency, which really isn't that far off from PC, M/KB aside.
 

aspiegamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,986
ZzzzzzZzzzZzz...
I'm not really sure how this qualifies as "near-flawless" when there was a 2-3min pause to resync the controller and a stream crash. It's fine that this is some time before launch still, but if this happened on any other platform it would have been considered a disaster of a demo. This is way beyond a few dropped frames or a bit of lag.
 

ImaLawy3r

Member
Jun 6, 2019
23
I'm not really sure how this qualifies as "near-flawless" when there was a 2-3min pause to resync the controller and a stream crash. It's fine that this is some time before launch still, but if this happened on any other platform it would have been considered a disaster of a demo. This is way beyond a few dropped frames or a bit of lag.
I understand what your saying but you're conflating two separate things here. The stream and it's quality had not been broken. Instead, it was a controller issue. I think everyone is more concerned about lag/latency an it's quality which what the "near flawless" comment was just likely about. As far as controllers not syncing properly, I think we've all had our fair share of controllers/Bluetooth devices not pairing as expected.
 

IamFlying

Member
Apr 6, 2019
146
What's a "very long way" in your mind? Because the technology has made a ludicrous leap forward in the span of one console generation. I agree that the perfect solution won't come this year, but I don't think we're 10+ years away from this working just as well as local gameplay.



Netflix streaming proves that near flawless is absolutely good enough. Physical blu-rays still blow Netflix quality out of the water from a picture, and especially sound, perspective. But to 97% of people, it just doesn't matter.
Netflix streaming is not even remotely comparable to game streaming.

Game streaming could get big if internet tech changes drastically, until then it will be a niche market for people with very good internet connections who don't care about hiccups in gaming and only want to play when online connection is available, and for some reasons don't want to buy a console or PC and don't care about exclusive games.
 

IamFlying

Member
Apr 6, 2019
146
I'm not really sure how this qualifies as "near-flawless" when there was a 2-3min pause to resync the controller and a stream crash. It's fine that this is some time before launch still, but if this happened on any other platform it would have been considered a disaster of a demo. This is way beyond a few dropped frames or a bit of lag.
Just think about when a new console would be crashing or lose controller connection in first hands on, it would be a disaster for the company. But I think not many people even care enough about Stadia that such headlines would get clicks.
 

MajorVape

Member
Mar 27, 2019
25
There will be lag when playing wirelessly. Simple physics and a basic understanding of half Vs full duplex dictates it. A wired connection will be better though so I'm still interested in trying this myself.
 

aspiegamer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,986
ZzzzzzZzzzZzz...
I understand what your saying but you're conflating two separate things here. The stream and it's quality had not been broken. Instead, it was a controller issue. I think everyone is more concerned about lag/latency an it's quality which what the "near flawless" comment was just likely about. As far as controllers not syncing properly, I think we've all had our fair share of controllers/Bluetooth devices not pairing as expected.
Given the controller is effectively the platform they're trying to sell in this situation, it matters if it's having basic problems like this. 2-3 minutes is also odd? If nothing else, a flag of "you may way to use your own controller and/or leave it in wired mode" is still not a great look.

It's actually fairly ironic that on a demo of advanced tech that the most notable issues were on the more traditional elements.
Just think about when a new console would be crashing or lose controller connection in first hands on, it would be a disaster for the company. But I think not many people even care enough about Stadia that such headlines would get clicks.
Exactly, but I was hoping standards would be a -little- higher than this. "I wasn't expecting much so I guess I had an okay time" is an insult to google.
 

Synth

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,643
Just think about when a new console would be crashing or lose controller connection in first hands on, it would be a disaster for the company. But I think not many people even care enough about Stadia that such headlines would get clicks.
This kind of thing actually happens quite frequently with demos of traditional gaming hardware. They just don't usually register because the controllers etc are a known quantity. It usually only gets noticed because it occurs during a stage demo (Uncharted 4, Skyward Sword, etc). Equating a fairly common hiccup with the entire prospects of the streaming tech is misguided to say the least.
 

RestEerie

Member
Aug 20, 2018
4,912
The only streaming I've tried is Nvidia GeForce now via shield TV which works surprisingly well pending some hiccups here & there because I'm on WiFi and PS4 remote play using my Vita where I was connected to a super fast WiFi in a Kyoto hotel to my PS4 back in Singapore with wired Ethernet and 1gbps fiber and I can play a few match of Street fighter v, no joke.
 

Cyclonesweep

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,595
My big issue is streaming games that you still have to buy. Paying full price for a game that I then have to use all my bandwidth to continually play is...unfortunate.

If it was just a monthly fee to access all the games fine...but having to buy the game to them stream it feels very wrong.
 

WickedCobra03

Member
Oct 27, 2017
521
I am still on the negative side, but not blindly smack talking just because its new.

My concerns come into play with; the lack of hardwire connections today on devices, data caps and still slow speeds for a good chunk of the country.
 

OrdinaryPrime

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,550
Every Stadia thread to date has been derailed with numerous posters spreading fud or just stating how they don't want it.

This thread for example is about a positive experience with a demo.. Are your feeling that is still what is being discussed?

It is the xbox360 "pay for online!!", I do not predict many healthy discussions on it.
Who cares about other Stadia threads, it's not relevant to THIS one. Engage and deny the FUD if it's so readily apparent. So many times people are in such a rush to just dismiss people's arguments because they disagree with them that they dismiss them out of hand without understanding why people feel this strongly.

This is a fundamental change in ownership, in technology, in convenience. Why are people so willing to dismiss people for feeling cautious and mentioning the pitfalls? Like right now, we're talking about getting the technology back to what we already have, how is not okay to not be excited about something like that? It's really aggravating because people aren't willing to engage on the actual issue, they just label a bunch of people that disagree as old people yelling at clouds.

The ultimate test of this tech is going to be when the general public gets its hands on it in a large capacity. Until then these impressions add to the general perception that the tech "works good enough".
 

Orb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,414
USA
Streaming sounds really nice if it works, but my current reality is hilariously dire

 

giapel

Member
Oct 28, 2017
545
“I could not detect any noticeable input lag”
I’m not falling for that. I expect these services to be properly scrutinised under various network conditions and come up with the actual input lag(as in measure it!) we’re looking at. Then we can judge if it’s acceptable or not.
But none of this “it feels alright”.
 

Mint

Member
Oct 26, 2017
751
Canada
I'm hyped. I'm not one of the "I must use a wired controller, with ethernet, and 0.00001ms gaming TV" people so I would definitely stop buying consoles altogether if this works as well as the article says it does. I'm already all digital anyways and pretty much expect all my PS4 games to stop working in 5 years.
 

MasterOfNone

Member
Oct 27, 2017
68
I just want to remind people that a whole LOT of people play their console games on TVs with post-processing activated (game mode off or no game mode) and currently experience input lag bigger than Stadia will ever have without noticing or caring. A lot of people on these forums are not representative of the gaming mass as a whole. As for me, yeah it's not quite ready to wow my very specific needs yet.
 

hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
2,375
“I could not detect any noticeable input lag”
I’m not falling for that. I expect these services to be properly scrutinised under various network conditions and come up with the actual input lag(as in measure it!) we’re looking at. Then we can judge if it’s acceptable or not.
But none of this “it feels alright”.
It "feeling" is the most important part. We can throw ms or frames of latency that's been measured mechanically all we want, but how it feels is what matters in the end. That and if it isn't perceptible to many people and then we get measurements people using it will come out in droves to decry the latency they weren't previously feeling. This has happened in the FGC a whole lot with various fighting game PCBs where "this is fine, I like it" suddenly became a rallying cry about a board being measured to have half a frame of input latency. It's insane.
 

monmagman

Member
Dec 6, 2018
1,166
England,UK
Given how nuts games are gonna look next gen and how much more ambitious devs are going to be able to be......it seems weird that a lot of people are gonna be playing these games on little phone screens.
I know they will be the same games but I wouldn't want to gimp my experience......I'll not give up my sofa and big tv without a fight,lol.
 

Dunlop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,128
Who cares about other Stadia threads, it's not relevant to THIS one. Engage and deny the FUD if it's so readily apparent. So many times people are in such a rush to just dismiss people's arguments because they disagree with them that they dismiss them out of hand without understanding why people feel this strongly.

This is a fundamental change in ownership, in technology, in convenience. Why are people so willing to dismiss people for feeling cautious and mentioning the pitfalls? Like right now, we're talking about getting the technology back to what we already have, how is not okay to not be excited about something like that? It's really aggravating because people aren't willing to engage on the actual issue, they just label a bunch of people that disagree as old people yelling at clouds.

The ultimate test of this tech is going to be when the general public gets its hands on it in a large capacity. Until then these impressions add to the general perception that the tech "works good enough".
Again because these pitfalls are mentioned in every thread and it is a derail, there is a Stadia OT (there was even a thread how a shark could take out the internet and bring Stadia down...)

We are all aware there are millions of people who do not have the internet to handle this, what is not often mentioned is there are millions of people who can. Ownership is important to some and not important at all to others...again nothing to do with a thread about a positive demo

The onus is on the poster to stay on the topic of the thread, not for other posters to sheriff them
 

hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
2,375
Again because these pitfalls are mentioned in every thread and it is a derail, there is a Stadia OT (there was even a thread how a shark could take out the internet and bring Stadia down...)

We are all aware there are millions of people who do not have the internet to handle this, what is not often mentioned is there are millions of people who can. Ownership is important to some and not important at all to others...again nothing to do with a thread about a positive demo

The onus is on the poster to stay on the topic of the thread, not for other posters to sheriff them
It also doesn't help that, while valid in most cases, the arguments made against it are always the same and get repeated ad naseum even if they've been discussed and, in some cases, even proven to be non-impacting. That's what bugs me most: that some people have cement shoes on and refuse to budge because they don't want their stance to be wrong.
 

PinballRJ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
390
Interesting that they used Chromebooks again, last night during the Giant Bomb interview Phil Spencer straight up said this shit isn't gonna look great on a 65" TV. Google probably isn't going show games on a TV to press before launch.
 

hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
2,375
Interesting that they used Chromebooks again, last night during the Giant Bomb interview Phil Spencer straight up said this shit isn't gonna look great on a 65" TV. Google probably isn't going show games on a TV to press before launch.
They say in the article that it was hooked up to a Samsung TV. They were merely using the Chromebook as the streaming client.
 

thebishop

Member
Nov 10, 2017
1,059
Given how nuts games are gonna look next gen and how much more ambitious devs are going to be able to be......it seems weird that a lot of people are gonna be playing these games on little phone screens.
I know they will be the same games but I wouldn't want to gimp my experience......I'll not give up my sofa and big tv without a fight,lol.
I don't think Stadia is primarily about phone screens. That aspect of the service is probably the weakest of the launch package (only supporting the latest Pixel phones). Based on the founder's pack, Google is pretty clearly gunning straight for PS5 and Scarlett as its primary use case. The configuration they're pushing hardest is Chromecast + Controller + 4K subscription. That's a next-gen console.

For me the 2nd most interesting use-case is being able to play high end games on any intel-graphics laptop. The tradeoffs for discrete graphics in a laptop are pretty bad right now. Either you get a desktop-replacement tank with a mobile 1070 inside, or you get like a "workstation" 15" laptop with a 1050 inside which are usually expensive, still pretty large, poor battery life, and not that great for gaming anyway. The best laptops imo are 13" ultrabooks, but they're totally unsuitable for gaming. Stadia makes it possible.
 

monmagman

Member
Dec 6, 2018
1,166
England,UK
Ok,so I'm actually a potential customer for them......thing is,if I have an option to play locally then I'm just not going to consider streaming at all.
Reason I mentioned phones was because of all the talk of play anywhere and a phone is the one piece of hardware everyone has on them all the time.
Regardless anyway,it's not for me....but the tech is amazing and has come along so fast just within this gen I'm sure during next gen it will only get better.....I'll get in on it when I have to,lol.
 

Pancakes R Us

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,456
Stadia will be, for the people with the internet speed and data allowance to allow it, more than serviceable. I'm confident in that.

However, there will be a TON of people who will swear up and down, no matter how good the experience is, that it's not good enough. Google will need to do blind Pepsi Taste Tests with this thing, to prove to people that they don't care about the minuscule concessions the way they think they do.
Very pertinently point about blind tests. Totally agreed. I get the impression that there is a subset of gamers who are truly against this regardless, probably more older school gamers. The Fortnite and Snapchat generation? They won’t be fussed. Those of use that grew up in the 80s/90s and early naughtiest will probably be less open to it.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,433
Given how nuts games are gonna look next gen and how much more ambitious devs are going to be able to be......it seems weird that a lot of people are gonna be playing these games on little phone screens.
I know they will be the same games but I wouldn't want to gimp my experience......I'll not give up my sofa and big tv without a fight,lol.
Phone screens? Stadia can be played on whatever device you want.


Edit: ah, just saw your response above. Still check out the video. The tech is really cool.
 

OrdinaryPrime

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,550
It also doesn't help that, while valid in most cases, the arguments made against it are always the same and get repeated ad naseum even if they've been discussed and, in some cases, even proven to be non-impacting. That's what bugs me most: that some people have cement shoes on and refuse to budge because they don't want their stance to be wrong.
What arguments have been proven wrong?
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,433
Another thing about the latency.

NX gamer did a console input latency test awhile back, and Doom had 80 ms input latency, Halo 5 had 120 ms latency and Forza Horizon 3 had like 170 ms input latency. This was the total chain of latency including the bluetooth controller and TV. But if Stadia can lower the input latency by being directly connected to the cloud servers it should be very serviceable as long as you have a good internet connection and stable wifi in your house.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,204
In general, the problem I have with a lot of these conversations is that -- whether people intend to or not -- the battle lines always invariably get drawn. Laying my cards out on the table I'll note that I'm more into high end hardware myself. But even though my preference is with owning my own hardware that's running locally, I still think there's a potential place for streaming. Like especially as a supplementary service it sounds great. Thinking about crossplay and being able to play my game on my PC (or Xbox or whatever) at home and being able to play on a laptop or phone or whatever via Stadia (or xcloud or whatever) on the go sounds great. Take me to that future. I'm in.

But when it gets presented as this sort of inevitable takeover of how video games will be played by everyone that's where I get defensive. Like, I totally am aware of how people come across as old people yelling at clouds when they reject change, and I get that there might be some of that here. But I really, really think that some people are overestimating both the reliability of the tech and current infrastructure when they think that this is just absolutely, 100% how people will be playing games in the future, that this will be a Netflix-like massacre of non-streaming delivery mechanisms for gaming. Now, that doesn't mean it's right to launch into FUD about just how garbage any and all game streaming tech is and how we should reject it wholesale of course. But I do think that the approach many take (on both sides) is what makes these topics so needlessly contentious.

Call me a foolish optimist, but I honestly don't see why both streaming and traditional can't co-exist to expand the audience as opposed to the former replacing the latter.
 

Samus4145

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,415
Unless I am mistaken, Google has not given prices yet on game purchases, yet everyone assumes it will be full price. What if it's cheaper, as it will only be available for streaming?
 

hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
2,375
What arguments have been proven wrong?
Notice I said non-impacting rather than wrong? Latency being one, because while latency will always exist for something like this, a lot of existing games already have decently high amounts of latency that are mitigated by some of the systems Stadia uses that are designed to mitigate it.

Another one always brought up is ownership, which means different things to different people. They've already said you can purchase games outright to stream without having to do the Pro sub. If it's physical ownership, fine, ya got me, but if it's ownership of the ability to play the game, which most of us talk about in general terms, then it's not an issue with how they're doing this. I've resigned myself long ago that physical ownership doesn't even matter to me in almost any game made after the beginning of last gen consoles, because digital licenses are more useful in a lot of cases and the only benefit to a physical copy, now, is resale, which I rarely ever do.
 

Dunlop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,128
In general, the problem I have with a lot of these conversations is that -- whether people intend to or not -- the battle lines always invariably get drawn. Laying my cards out on the table I'll note that I'm more into high end hardware myself. But even though my preference is with owning my own hardware that's running locally, I still think there's a potential place for streaming. Like especially as a supplementary service it sounds great. Thinking about crossplay and being able to play my game on my PC (or Xbox or whatever) at home and being able to play on a laptop or phone or whatever via Stadia (or xcloud or whatever) on the go sounds great. Take me to that future. I'm in.

But when it gets presented as this sort of inevitable takeover of how video games will be played by everyone that's where I get defensive. Like, I totally am aware of how people come across as old people yelling at clouds when they reject change, and I get that there might be some of that here. But I really, really think that some people are overestimating both the reliability of the tech and current infrastructure when they think that this is just absolutely, 100% how people will be playing games in the future, that this will be a Netflix-like massacre of non-streaming delivery mechanisms for gaming. Now, that doesn't mean it's right to launch into FUD about just how garbage any and all game streaming tech is and how we should reject it wholesale of course. But I do think that the approach many take (on both sides) is what makes these topics so needlessly contentious.

Call me a foolish optimist, but I honestly don't see why both streaming and traditional can't co-exist to expand the audience as opposed to the former replacing the latter.
They can, which is what makes the vitriol here odd. Stadia is a low risk low cost (literally free in 2020 outside of games) alternative.

Personally I am just excited about new technology possibilities, I have no doubt there will be problems at launch and if the product is shit I will not even bat an eye as it cost me about the same price as the Destiny 2 collectors edition and I will walk away with a $90 chromecast.

I've been gaming since the early 80's , I am always happy to explore new avenues that this hobby can go.

My discouragement is I can already see Stadia taking the same heat as "online must be free!" or the Xbox1 announcement months on Gaf where it was impossible to have an actual discussion due to endless thread derails that would ultimately get locked by a moderator (Xbox One was so bad on Gaf they tried to create a single thread to have positive discussions and the mods even locked that).

Every persons reason for not wanting this is valid, it should not be to the detriment for those who want to explore Stadia..
 

hikarutilmitt

Member
Dec 16, 2017
2,375
I think my favorite part of Stadia, so far, is that if it works as I expect it to (vs how they're presenting it, though it aligns almost perfectly anyway) I'll be able to just have a $10 sub that gives me the option to play some games I might not otherwise have played and if I decide to not longer be a part of that I can simply unsubscribe. With the founder's pack I'm getting what looks to be a pretty decent/nice controller and a Chromecast Ultra with some service tacked on for free. If I bail, I bail, but I'll still have a decent PC controller available and a good streaming device for one of the rooms in my house (or a gift to a family member).
 

OrdinaryPrime

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,550
Notice I said non-impacting rather than wrong? Latency being one, because while latency will always exist for something like this, a lot of existing games already have decently high amounts of latency that are mitigated by some of the systems Stadia uses that are designed to mitigate it.

Another one always brought up is ownership, which means different things to different people. They've already said you can purchase games outright to stream without having to do the Pro sub. If it's physical ownership, fine, ya got me, but if it's ownership of the ability to play the game, which most of us talk about in general terms, then it's not an issue with how they're doing this. I've resigned myself long ago that physical ownership doesn't even matter to me in almost any game made after the beginning of last gen consoles, because digital licenses are more useful in a lot of cases and the only benefit to a physical copy, now, is resale, which I rarely ever do.
I guess we'll see on latency, using PlayStation Now made it a no go for me, even for RPGs. And I realize this was one of the first major iterations of the tech (along with OnLive).

As far as ownership, it isn't about 'getting you' or 'winning', this isn't a competition for us. I understand that for you physical ownership isn't a big deal. To me it's not just about resale, but also about game preservation. We're already seeing some Telltale stuff basically lost to the ether essentially forever.