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wondermagenta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,153
Cologne
I finished the new God of War a while back and if you've seen my posts on here about it, you'll know I've been less than thrilled about the whole experience for various reasons. I could talk endlessly about how the combat system isn't very good or why all the Zelda/Resi 4/Metroid/Bloodborne/etc. comparisons are flimsy at best, but there's one particular sore point I have about the game that sticks out to me above all that other stuff which I would like to discuss in this thread today: the tonal shift between this game and its predecessors and the way the character of Kratos is presented.

From the moment it was announced, the entire premise of this soft reboot struck me as absurd: I know many people have brought up this point already, but it bears repeating that the Kratos we know from the first six (!) games is an irredeemable monster. He's the kind of person who would kill completely innocent people if they're just sort of vaguely in his way, and God of War 3 ends with him basically murdering the entire planet because of his daddy issues. You might be tempted to argue that Ares' betrayal is what turned him into this sociopath to begin with, but the original God of War makes it blatantly clear in its flashbacks that Kratos was always a blood-hungry killing machine. Even the word "betrayal" is somewhat stretching it - the death of Kratos' family is tragic, but we can probably all agree that he brought it upon himself and that he's a massive hypocrite.

Putting this character into the role of a father taking care of his child over the course of an entire game, then, always seemed like one hell of a stretch to me. Ignoring all of the weird implications inherent to this concept for a minute, I always had a hard time even looking at this Kratos as the same character, and I couldn't possibly put myself in those shoes knowing his bloody past - he was the perfect anti-hero for a chaotic action game about killing everything on-screen that's not you, but the idea of this guy taking care of a child was nothing short of appalling to me. I've been told numerous times to wait for the final game to explain everything and to make it all click, but now that I've played it I have to say it's even worse than I imagined.

To get to the point, God of War 2018 actually has Kratos being a massive dick to his son for most of the early-game: he's stern, cold, coarse, dismissive… but you also get the sense that he just doesn't know any other way and that he's still really trying his hardest to teach and protect Atreus. His disposition leads to many awkward moments and situations between the two where Atreus essentially directly confronts his father about his shitty attitude and tries to hold up a mirror to him, which will slowly get Kratos to thaw and open up more as the game progresses.

It might be tempting to think this the ideal way of portraying Kratos in this new game, but it's actually where my biggest problem in this regard lies: it feels cheap and dishonest. "Kind of a dick to his son" doesn't even remotely measure up to what Kratos was like in the old games. The game tries so hard to make you think "wow, they're really looking at this character through a critical lens here!" when they're in fact completely dodging so much of what makes Kratos genuinely horrible. He wasn't just antisocial. He wasn't just selfish. I can't stress enough that he was a fucking MONSTER. This new game isn't just a jarring tonal shift, it reinterprets the degree of his depravity as much less than it truly is.

It gets worse as the game progresses and slowly starts to "redeem" Kratos. He softens up, becomes willing to even play around with Atreus and indulge in his son's curiosity, and even scolds him for being "unkind" and "needlessly brutal" as he lets the idea of being a god get to his head (one of the worst parts of the game narratively, but that's besides the point). Disregarding how insanely hypocritical that stuff sounds of his mouth either way, Kratos was already way too far gone in the original series for this kind of "character growth" to still be "acceptable." We wouldn't be willing to give a mass murderer a chance to redeem themselves in real life (not that that's a realistic thing for them to want in the first place), so why is someone like Kratos not held under the same kind of scrutiny? The game even goes so far as to show us flashbacks and visions of characters like Athena calling Kratos just that - an irredeemable monster, something that Kratos himself doesn't even seem to disagree with.

The writers didn't seem to get the memo though with how they essentially made Kratos the sole voice of reason in the endgame. He even goes so far as to give Baldur, the game's final boss, a lecture about how "vengeance won't bring him peace" which is FUCKING HILARIOUS considering how much Kratos himself seems to have mellowed out after finishing his "business" in God of War 3. After killing Baldur (which at this point was more than justified), we're even left with his mother, Freya, swearing revenge on us for murdering her son, and that's such a weird position to put Kratos in to me? Motherfucking KRATOS is now the one being threatened for SAVING people from a violent god's rampage? Given the precedence of the previous games that just doesn't feel right at all and it's another example of this game's writing being all over the fucking place.

There's so much more about the new God of War's narrative that I think is exceptionally poorly done, but this one big point is really what it comes down to me, and I'm left confounded at all the praise it's receiving specifically for how Kratos is handled. Like I said in the title of this thread, the mere attempt of redeeming someone like Kratos is so irresponsible keeping all of the underlying implications in mind. The way they ended up doing it is dishonest to the character and makes light of just how evil he is at his core. Just dropping an odd line like "yeah I killed a lot of innocent people sorry" here or there doesn't even begin to justify the direction they're now taking him in. If you ask me, the only acceptable way for this game to end would've been to fucking kill Kratos off already and leave not a shred of doubt about the fact that he was a bad person.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,582
I don't think "Yeah I've killed those undeserving" is what leads him to redemption because he knows he's a monster, but instead what he can teach his son so that Atreus doesn't walk the same path and become a monster like him as well. Saving his son would be his redemption, like Darth Vader in Star Wars.
 
Oct 27, 2017
39,148
The game isn't redeeming him. The game is about him making sure Atreus is a better person than he is because he is beyond redemption.

Not to mention there has been a thousand of years between GoW 3 and 4. I am pretty sure Kratos had a lot of time to think about what he did.
 

Suicide King

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,018
I mean, I never saw him as "redeemable" in the game. It always felt like he was trying his hardest to hide his past (which is something I can understand). He lived for a long time after being blinded by absolute hatred, and now he's focused on making sure Atreus won't end up like him, just like he ended up like Zeus. Would you rather have him kill his son or rape Freya just to guarantee you that yes, he is still a bad guy?
Killing Kratos off without giving him a chance to regret his actions or making him suffer would not make any sense. It would just be revenge (or the american incarceration system).
 

Xer0

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
330
I can't imagine a single person playing God of War thinking the game redeems him in any way. Like, it's literally about him trying to stop Atreus from becoming him because he knows all the bad he's done.
 

OnanieBomb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,482
Yeah I had a difficult time adjusting to his new character. So much so that I laughed during the funeral pyre in the beginning, like you really expect me to be able to take this shit seriously?
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,930
From the moment it was announced, the entire premise of this soft reboot struck me as absurd: I know many people have brought up this point already, but it bears repeating that the Kratos we know from the first six (!) games is an irredeemable monster.

Putting this character into the role of a father taking care of his child over the course of an entire game, then, always seemed like one hell of a stretch to me. Ignoring all of the weird implications inherent to this concept for a minute, I always had a hard time even looking at this Kratos as the same character, and I couldn't possibly put myself in those shoes knowing his bloody past - he was the perfect anti-hero for a chaotic action game about killing everything on-screen that's not you, but the idea of this guy taking care of a child was nothing short of appalling to me.

Like I said in the title of this thread, the mere attempt of redeeming someone like Kratos is so irresponsible keeping all of the underlying implications in mind. The way they ended up doing it is dishonest to the character and makes light of just how evil he is at his core. Just dropping an odd line like "yeah I killed a lot of innocent people sorry" here or there doesn't even begin to justify the direction they're now taking him in. If you ask me, the only acceptable way for this game to end would've been to fucking kill Kratos off already and leave not a shred of doubt about the fact that he was a bad person.

So you wanted Kratos to be the same person he always was? This static, never-changing archetype despite everything he's been through and done? It's called character growth and I had no problems with it.
 

Transistor

Hollowly Brittle
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
37,156
Washington, D.C.
At no point does the game try to "redeem" Kratos. You know he's a monster the whole game and he his admittance of it to Atreus is about making sure Atreus does not walk the same path. Kratos is trying to be a better person now, sure, but he's 100% accepting of his past.
 

Kemono

▲ Legend ▲
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,669
Kratos was, is and will be a gigantic piece of shit.

Him trying to make sure Atreus isn't following in his footsteps isn't negating that in any way.
 

Deleted member 9486

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,867
I don't think anyone is truly irredeemable. People may think people don't deserve redemption or forgiveness, but most anyone can change overtime IMO.
 

The Shape

Member
Nov 7, 2017
5,027
Brazil
I don't think "Yeah I've killed those undeserving" is what leads him to redemption because he knows he's a monster, but instead what he can teach his son so that Atreus doesn't walk the same path and become a monster like him as well. Saving his son would be his redemption, like Darth Vader in Star Wars.

The game isn't redeeming him. The game is about him making sure Atreus is a better person than he is because he is beyond redemption.

It's not about Kratos' redemption, it's about Atreus growing up.

I think these people nailed it.
 

Memento

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,129
The game was not about redeeming him AT ALL?

The whole premise is how he has to deal with what he has done and how he cant change that. But now he has a kid and the whole thing revolves around him trying to raise his son so he wont be like him.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,430
I don't see an issue with the character of Kratos per se. Kratos has not been a mere mortal for several games now. He is a god and the gods of old were brutal and vengeful not bound by modern human morals. This is a story about fatherhood and raising a god.
 

Angst

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,425
I think a looooooooooong time has gone by between his "terrible god killing phase" and now. People change over a course of 20 years, I cant imagine how much kratos has changed. Not saying he's been "redeemed". But its certainly possible for him to be a new man now.
 

Heisenberg726

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
1,069
I don't think anyone is truly irredeemable. People may think people don't deserve redemption or forgiveness, but most anyone can change overtime IMO.

Exactly. After Greece, Kratos learned how badly his actions have affected the world and moved to the Norse Pantheon to settle down and live a life. I believe it's Faye that helped him calm down. And, in my eyes, his recognition of his horrible past actions and his attempt to stop the cycle at the end redeems him.
 

Razgriz417

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,110
As the game says in the end, by the mural, it isn't their story, rather, all of this is Atreus ' story
 

CenturionNami

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,230
What a load of nonsense. I've read more coherent posts on 4chan op.

"You will always be...a monster"

"I know..."

Kratos takes fully responsibility for his actions. He's a repentant sinner, but he fully acknowledges that doesn't change what he's done.
 

Dog of Bork

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,989
Texas
Incredibly irresponsible would be a good description of someone making a thread after missing the point of the narrative.
 

Deleted member 7450

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,842
Let me walk on eggshells here.

If he isn't looking for redemption and is fully aware of his monstrosity: Why the hell he has another family to begin with? :V
 

J-Skee

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,107
People can change. You're not allowing Kratos to change as a person. An unspecified amount of time has passed for him to reflect on all the things he has done. He doesn't need to redeemed, he just needs to make sure he doesn't pass that asshole behavior to his son. If anything, after everything & Atreus go through to spread Faye's ashes, I find him honorable. He didn't have to make that journey, but it's made quite clear how important she was to him.
 

Nightengale

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,708
Malaysia
Kratos in the previous games was a selfish person who had no problem murdering countless people.

But, throughout those games, he still had through-lines. He had people that he had strong emotional connections to; and different degrees of friendship/acquaintanceship.

Callisto. Lysandra. Calliope. Deimos. The Last Spartan. Pandora. Athena ( kind of, in GoW2 )

The through-line of majority of those people? They were his family. Either blood or an extension of his military-life as a Spartan.

He loved those people, even as he was tricked/forced into killing some of them.

So, for him to love Atreus? It's not remotely strange at all.
 
OP
OP
wondermagenta

wondermagenta

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,153
Cologne
I don't think "Yeah I've killed those undeserving" is what leads him to redemption because he knows he's a monster, but instead what he can teach his son so that Atreus doesn't walk the same path and become a monster like him as well. Saving his son would be his redemption, like Darth Vader in Star Wars.
The game isn't redeeming him. The game is about him making sure Atreus is a better person than he is because he is beyond redemption.

Not to mention there has been a thousand of years between GoW 3 and 4. I am pretty sure Kratos had a lot of time to think about what he did.
It's not about Kratos' redemption, it's about Atreus growing up.
I mean, I never saw him as "redeemable" in the game. It always felt like he was trying his hardest to hide his past (which is something I can understand). He lived for a long time after being blinded by absolute hatred, and now he's focused on making sure Atreus won't end up like him, just like he ended up like Zeus. Would you rather have him kill his son or rape Freya just to guarantee you that yes, he is still a bad guy?
Killing Kratos off without giving him a chance to regret his actions or making him suffer would not make any sense. It would just be revenge (or the american incarceration system).
I can't imagine a single person playing God of War thinking the game redeems him in any way. Like, it's literally about him trying to stop Atreus from becoming him because he knows all the bad he's done.
At no point does the game try to "redeem" Kratos. You know he's a monster the whole game and he his admittance of it to Atreus is about making sure Atreus does not walk the same path. Kratos is trying to be a better person now, sure, but he's 100% accepting of his past.
Kratos was, is and will be a gigantic piece of shit.

Him trying to make sure Atreus isn't following in his footsteps isn't negating that in any way.

And you all don't think sending the message that THIS GUY is the one steering his child toward the right path is kinda.... weird??? Your responses are also all ignoring all the examples I gave about the dishonest way his character is portrayed within the game. The game never actually portrays him as the monster he is outside of literally saying it (basically implying that the mean shitty Kratos you see in the early game is how he always was) and they DO show him become warmer and kinder as the story progresses. Are you all telling me that's not true?
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
The game was not about redeeming him AT ALL?

The whole premise is how he has to deal with what he has done and how he cant change that. But now he has a kid and the whole thing revolves around him trying to raise his son so he wont be like him.
it's about him accepting the past and moving on to be better. The whole theme of the game is 'be better'

He wasn't redeemed in the end. He still acknowledges himself as a monster. Still he knows that Atreus shouldn't follow in his footsteps.
 

ronaldthump

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,439
of course, that's 1 persons opinion. I don't agree at all.
 

Nintendo

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,383
  • Athena:"There's nowhere you can hide, Spartan. Put as much distance between you and the truth as you want. It changes nothing. Pretend to be everything you're not. Teacher. Husband. Father. But there is one unavoidable truth you will never escape: You cannot change. You will always be a monster."
  • Kratos:"I know... But I am your monster no longer."

The game isn't about redeeming Kratos or making him a good guy. He is bad. The game and Kratos himself acknowledge it. He just doesn't want Atreus to be a piece of shit as well.
 
Oct 30, 2017
5,006
Kratos "vengeance won't bring you peace" is incredibly accurate to say to Baldur though. You can tell Kratos still doesn't have peace.
 
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