The Wind Waker vs Twilight Princess vs Skyward Sword

The best Zelda game of these three releases was...

  • The Wind Waker

    Votes: 856 60.4%
  • Twilight Princess

    Votes: 417 29.4%
  • Skyward Sword

    Votes: 144 10.2%

  • Total voters
    1,417
  • This poll will close: .

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,720
While I agree moving wind is slightly better than the wolf, the wolf is not terrible. It’s used in great ways in the fourth dungeons and at least it lets you move around quicker, it’s a take on the MM form changing.

Better character design, not gameplay.

Better story, not gameplay.

You are wrong about bosses, they are simply better in TP and more numerous.

Lies, there are plenty of uses for the items in TP outside the dungeons that lead to a small cave or a heart piece. Switching to twilight realm is just as big a world changing item as SLOWLY moving wind.

TP is better designed, has better level design, far more variety. It just does so much more than WW which has a great premise but was very basic with its execution.
The wolf's mechanic of seeing ghosts is used. There's no reason for you being a wolf. There is no reason to not wanting to fight as Link instead of the wolf because the wolf combat mechanics are so abysmal. Th wind mechanic feels integral to a lot of aspects of WW, the wolf mechanic feels compeltely tacked on.

Fyrus is the blandest boss they every released. The name alone. Morpheel literally doesn't do anything. Blizzeta is just a souped up Spiderform Ganon Puppet from WW. Zant is literally an amalgamation of earlier mid bosses. my god how they butchered Zant in general.

I am not talking about small caves and heartpieces. I'm talking about stuff like getting the Deku Leaf in the second dungeon of the game, and then having to use it in the Wind Temple (which is btw better designed than pretty much any TP dungeon, even if it's an outlier) later on to even traverse the whole thing. I'm talking about the Leaf being completely intertwined with the main gimmick of the game. Same with the steel boots being used in combination with the hookshot to pull heavy things later on. What are the steel boots in TP used for after you beat the dungeon you get them in?
 
OP
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ManCityX

ManCityX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,609
Manchester, England
One of the most disappointing things about Twilight Princess was that they delayed the game an entire year to launch it with the Wii, and despite having all that extra time, so much of the game was just so bleh.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,692
Wind Waker > Twilight Princess > Skyward Sword

Although I really I to replay TP. I loved it at the time, but I only played that one time, which was like 13 years ago now, so a lot of it is not as fresh in my mind as TWW -- which, while older, I also played a few times and even completed it 100%.
 

dtamago

Member
Feb 1, 2019
142
Wind waker for me, Twilight princess was the first time I remember being over hyped for a game and then getting disappointed.
 
Nov 17, 2017
7,372
The bolded is just flat out wrong. We only have to look at the main gimmick of each title. One has you influencing the wind, not only a part in traversal but also other gameplay aspects like the deku leaf. The other has a shitty wolf transformation that does nothing but make you wish it didn't excist every time it comes up. It adds absolutely nothing positive to the experience.


WW has:
- Better character and enemy designs. Literally every character outside of Midna and Zelda looks ass in TP.

- A better story. Tetra and the pirates are more charming than any character in TP. Ganondorf in WW is the best Ganondorf the series ever had.

- TP has so many shit boss battles. The only good ones were Stallord, Argorok and the final Ganondorf one. Fyrus is an absolute turd and Morpheel doesn't even do anything. While Ghoma in WW isn't too good either, at least it's visually striking. Ghodan, the bird and Molgera are more fun than almost anything in TP.

- The Deku leaf is better than any item in TP, because you can and have to use it outside of the dungeon you find it in (which is almost never the case in TP).

TP has good dungeons and that's it. It absolutely shits the bed in every other aspect and isn't even remotely close to the 64 games. Windwakers artstyle alone is bolder than anything TP ever tried, and the reason for that were all these morons who cried kiddy at WW back then. TP not only played it safe in terms of appeasing OoT fans but also tried way too hard to be edgy in terms of atmosphere.
The Wind gimmick of WW literally only does those two things and using the wind to sail is one of the most tedious things in the original. So tedious that they had to add a new sail in the HD version that basically ignores the entire mechanic so I think that tells you how great that gimmick really was. "Oh shit, I need to turn 45 degrees to the left? Better whip out my baton and play the song so I can watch the wind animation play out."

The Wolf from the same perspective does a lot more. You're much faster as the wolf, allowing you to cover ground more quickly if you don't have Epona. You can fight with the wolf who has a super useful one hit kill AoE attack. You can use the wolf to find hidden rupees or hidden grottos under the ground. You use its senses to follow scent trails or reveal other secrets.

TP has great character designs. If you think Midna and Zelda are the only good characters you need to look again.


Enemy designs in TP are great too, I don't know how you could call any of these ass:




TP has a great story, it's cinematic and emotional in the right moments. It has plenty of charming characters. I loved Colin's arc for example and he's literally a side character. Tetra is alright but Midna does her character schtick much better and doesn't just turn into a damsel for the rest of the game like Tetra does when she becomes Zelda. Seriously they ruin Tetra in the second half. Midna only gets better as the game goes on.

The Deku Leaf is nice but it's not that great, especially because of the magic meter. There are plenty of dungeon items you use outside of their dungeons in TP. The only one I would say is really egregious is the Dominion Rod as it only gets used in the Sky Letter quest and one room of the Cave of Trials.

Edit: Forgot to mention the bosses. Bosses are easy in TP but at least they're fun. I'm not gonna say Fyrus or Morpheel are greats but Stallord? Blizzeta? Argorok? Zant? Ganondorf's phases? Super fun. Diababa is really cool because the mini boss of the dungeon comes in to help you fight it. Wind Waker has... I guess Helmaroc King is good. But the rest are eh. What was that fat ghost you just picked up and tossed at the wall? Or the plant boss that you threw boomerangs at and smacked it? Remember Puppet Ganon and how awful that fight was? I don't think the bosses in either game are mind-blowing but WW's are definitely worse.

Twilight Princess is not just an edgy OoT clone as so many people want to dismiss it as. TP has so many unique elements to it that OoT never had. The wolf is clearly not any thing OoT attempted. Nor is the Wild West and techno alien aesthetic throughout the game. Or a bunch of other things I could mention. It calls back to OoT for sure but so does WW. TP is hardly a gritty and edgy game when you sit down and play it. It's got as many lighthearted moments and Zelda charm as any other Zelda game but people always ignore them even though they're everywhere in the game.

Now I've written enough. I'm out!

 
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Miamiwesker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,073
Miami
The wolf's mechanic of seeing ghosts is used. There's no reason for you being a wolf. There is no reason to not wanting to fight as Link instead of the wolf because the wolf combat mechanics are so abysmal. Th wind mechanic feels integral to a lot of aspects of WW, the wolf mechanic feels compeltely tacked on.

Fyrus is the blandest boss they every released. The name alone. Morpheel literally doesn't do anything. Blizzeta is just a souped up Spiderform Ganon Puppet from WW. Zant is literally an amalgamation of earlier mid bosses. my god how they butchered Zant in general.

I am not talking about small caves and heartpieces. I'm talking about stuff like getting the Deku Leaf in the second dungeon of the game, and then having to use it in the Wind Temple (which is btw better designed than pretty much any TP dungeon, even if it's an outlier) later on to even traverse the whole thing. I'm talking about the Leaf being completely intertwined with the main gimmick of the game. Same with the steel boots being used in combination with the hookshot to pull heavy things later on. What are the steel boots in TP used for after you beat the dungeon you get them in?
The wolf’s combat is different and not that interesting but it is used in combat in unique ways with the twilight enemies that have to be killed in unison, creating a new gameplay moment. Wind is not used in combat. Wind in the world is nothing more than insteading pressing a direction button you have to sing a damn song to do so. Press up on the stick! Done! Why do I have to change the damn wind to do that, it’s not a game changing mechanic, it’s a hindrance. The leaf is a better wind item as it’s used to blow stuff around and move while on a leaf. Yes the one great dungeon in WW is great and does make use of the wind well but again one moment against several great moments across a bigger game in TP.

Stallord might be the best boss in Zelda history, it’s unlike anything in the series. Arognok is incredible, flying through the air like Spider-Man battling a dragon. The multi level Ganon fight is much better than WWs simple fight. Blizzeta is great. The sub bosses were better than most in WW. Come on now.

This whole use the item else where thing is out of hand. Most of the items items are used as glorified keys, TP just makes sure every dungeon is unique, I don’t care if the items are used if the dungeon remains interesting from start to finish which they do.
 

KojiKnight

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,206
While I agree moving wind is slightly better than the wolf, the wolf is not terrible. It’s used in great ways in the fourth dungeons and at least it lets you move around quicker, it’s a take on the MM form changing.

Better character design, not gameplay.

Better story, not gameplay.

You are wrong about bosses, they are simply better in TP and more numerous.

Lies, there are plenty of uses for the items in TP outside the dungeons that lead to a small cave or a heart piece. Switching to twilight realm is just as big a world changing item as SLOWLY moving wind.

TP is better designed, has better level design, far more variety. It just does so much more than WW which has a great premise but was very basic with its execution.
The wolf is an absolute chore to play as, about the only benefit is that it's quicker to go wolf than summon epona (which itself is a pretty huge flaw).

WW definitely has better character design AND gameplay. A lot of people don't like the ship, and that's fine... but it's almost it';s own little world and is a nice change of pace. Plenty to do on the water, and the HD version added a sail that gives you twice the speed which means even if you dislike the water it goes by much faster.

Bosses are less than 5% of the gameplay in a Zelda game, and the only one that really matters is the final boss... and the final boss fight of WW is much more satisfying than TP and that's not even talking about the story in general. Dealing with the fall out of OoT, a total post-apocalypse that's both cheery and very melancholic without being emo and brooding was a master stroke of design.

The item complaint is a pretty non-issue for both games for me.

TP is a fine game, aside from the DS titles, every Zelda game is essentially in the upper 90% of all games ever produced... but TP is just boring. Wind Waker was meant to be a big gamble on Nintendo's part, and Twilight Princess is the antithesis because of the backlash. It's the least experimental a Zelda game has ever been, it's incredibly safe and boring because of it. It's OoT with a boring wolf mode and just a couple additional items... Majora's Mask did more to separate itself from OoT and it was made in just one year.
 

Nisaba

Member
Oct 28, 2017
577
Canada
All three games are wonderful and I love them for different reasons.

I lowkey hate the ERA downplaying of TP though, it's like that game personally insulted everyone or something...
 

Sea lion

Member
Nov 8, 2017
640
I know Windwaker has short comings, but it's pure happiness in the form of a game.

TP is solid and consistent. And SS has great highs but low lows.

I have to give it WW even though TP is probably the better game. It has atmosphere and charm in buckets.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,215
All three games are wonderful and I love them for different reasons.

I lowkey hate the ERA downplaying of TP though, it's like that game personally insulted everyone or something...
People are free to their opinion but it doesn't help that Twilight Princess was hyped as the second coming and was merely good in the end. It was meant to be the true sequel to Ocarina which at the time was simply the game to end all games, with its revolutionary controls, possibly the first great 3D adventure and the time travel and lively world with varied towns (the zoras, gerudos and gorons) was amazing. Ocarina got everything so right the first time, 'up' may have been impossible.
 
Nov 1, 2017
515
FL, United States
I'm surprised Skyward Sword is getting any attention at all. The art style, dungeons, and motion mechanics were all lackluster compared to TP and WW. I've heard WW was rushed and the Triforce hunt was one of the most inane and needlessly repetitive mechanics in the entire series but the artwork, dungeons, plot, and tone make it one of my favorite titles of that decade. Let alone the HD remake of WW set the standards for what a remake should be, industry-wide. Before BotW I didn't think we would ever get a Zelda title that came close to what WW achieved given its contemporaneous footprint.
 

Nisaba

Member
Oct 28, 2017
577
Canada
People are free to their opinion but it doesn't help that Twilight Princess was hyped as the second coming and was merely good in the end. It was meant to be the true sequel to Ocarina which at the time was simply the game to end all games, with its revolutionary controls, possibly the first great 3D adventure and the time travel and lively world with varied towns (the zoras, gerudos and gorons) was amazing. Ocarina got everything so right the first time, 'up' may have been impossible.
Yes of course people are free to their opinion. I just think some of the flaws are much more exaggerated than expected and it sorta disappoints me to see that usually be the focus on here.

TP wasn't perfect but it tried a lot of stuff too and did it well imo. But I guess people had certain expectations for OoT 2.0.

WW and SS were both great too for different reasons. I would argue SS needed more adjustments to be better however.
 

♡♪!?

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,215
Yes of course people are free to their opinion. I just think some of the flaws are much more exaggerated than expected and it sorta disappoints me to see that usually be the focus on here.

TP wasn't perfect but it tried a lot of stuff too and did it well imo. But I guess people had certain expectations for OoT 2.0.

WW and SS were both great too for different reasons. I would argue SS needed more adjustments to be better however.
I feel Wind Waker wasn't very hyped at the time compared to TP, if I remember people were coming around the graphics more when they saw some of the animations like Link sneaking around, looking at the bomb clouds, but still the cutesty art style and name got loads of fart jokes, it was very lukewarm hype. It was a dissapointing game and indeed the reaction wasn't as hostile as TP failing to live up to Ocarina. It's easy for me to get very nostalgic about the TWW because it feels like a Disney movie at times, but TP is really a lot better when it comes to gameplay. I'm interested in people's opinions as well who didn't go through the hype cycles, at worst TP is a B grade Ocarina which is still pretty good.
 

VDenter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,519
Since when did Twilight Princess have more secrets to find in it's overworld? That world is dead and empty, even more so than the sea was in the Wind Waker. Some caves at the side here or there don't really make it any more interesting to explore. It's too big for it's own good and really tedious to traverse, especially as Wolf Link. Speaking of Wolf Link, that is the single most tacked on element ever in any 3D Zelda. It adds ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the game. The artstyle is grotesque. I can see some sort of charm in the N64 Zelda games but Twilight Princess looks terrible, every character in that game that is not Link,Midna,Zelda and Ganon looks hideous. The music sucks as well. Weakest 3D Zelda soundtrack by far.

As for the story itself, it is pretty bad. The game tries so hard to be more epic but it fails. After you beat the fourth dungeon nothing really happens in the story. It's just go from dungeon to dungeon while the plot itself grinds to a halt for several hours. I don't think Zelda needs a story but Twilight Princess likes to pretend that it has this epic story to tell but it's really apparent that it doesn't have anything going on or there is no sense of tension anywhere. There is a Dome covering hyrule castle in the game and none of the characters in the town give a shit. The whole world in Twilight Princess feels so artificial. Oh and Zelda gets resurrected for no reason and Ganon might as well be a cardboard box in the game, considering he has nothing of interesting to say or do. Zant had potential to be a good villain but Twilight Princess had to cop out. It's really hard to care about anything that is going on the story itself because everything about it forced.

The game also takes FOREVER to start, even for 3D Zelda standards. The pacing of the game is atrocious even if it has the most dungeons out any previous 3D Zelda game.

Like i said before i wonder how many people replayed some of these dungeons recently because the game is just as easy as the Wind Waker was. The dungeons are longer and there are certainly more of them but most of them are really mediocre, only saving grace is the atmosphere i guess. Like in the Fire Temple you spend half the dungeon slowly going up walls in a extremely linear set of rooms with no challenge to speak of. Or how about snowpeak where the game unlocks the dungeon for you one piece at a time. Seriously these dungeons aren't really remarkable. Dungeons like the eagles tower in Link's awakening shits on any dungeon in Twilight Princess just to give an example.

There is just so much wrong with Twilight Princess but it's fans overlook the flaws because it basically is OOT 2.0 and meets the dungeon quota.
 

Miamiwesker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,073
Miami
The wolf is an absolute chore to play as, about the only benefit is that it's quicker to go wolf than summon epona (which itself is a pretty huge flaw).

WW definitely has better character design AND gameplay. A lot of people don't like the ship, and that's fine... but it's almost it';s own little world and is a nice change of pace. Plenty to do on the water, and the HD version added a sail that gives you twice the speed which means even if you dislike the water it goes by much faster.

Bosses are less than 5% of the gameplay in a Zelda game, and the only one that really matters is the final boss... and the final boss fight of WW is much more satisfying than TP and that's not even talking about the story in general. Dealing with the fall out of OoT, a total post-apocalypse that's both cheery and very melancholic without being emo and brooding was a master stroke of design.

The item complaint is a pretty non-issue for both games for me.

TP is a fine game, aside from the DS titles, every Zelda game is essentially in the upper 90% of all games ever produced... but TP is just boring. Wind Waker was meant to be a big gamble on Nintendo's part, and Twilight Princess is the antithesis because of the backlash. It's the least experimental a Zelda game has ever been, it's incredibly safe and boring because of it. It's OoT with a boring wolf mode and just a couple additional items... Majora's Mask did more to separate itself from OoT and it was made in just one year.
WW does not have better gameplay, it is the more simple Zelda in most ways. TP has a deeper combat system with new moves to learn during the game. Crap on the wolf all you want, it allows to change into a different form that is quicker, has different abilities, can enter an alternate dimension and battles enemies in a unique way. The ability to ride multiple beasts all with it’s own combat. More varied and unique items that introduces new gameplay elements unique to this game. That’s all before the inspired dungeons which are way more interesting than most anything in WW.

I also don’t agree on the boss battle. The final battle against Ganon in WW is kind of one note, he just jumps around and you fight him while Zelda shoots arrows. Even if you count puppet Ganon that’s kind of a basic fight. Meanwhile TP Ganon has 4 tiers to his battle, all unique making use of a bunch of gameplay mechanics learned throughout the game. The final battle which is similar to WW is more skill filled as there are more combat options. Plus the entire sequence is just incredible as is the run up to hyrule castle. There is no contest, the end of TP is superior to WW.

I haven’t even gotten into the tons of mini games and setpieces that TP and how WW has very little of. Flying on a dragon over a river, kayak in the rapids, an old west shootout, an epic joust on a bridge, a convoy defense across all of hyrule, invading a desert camp, solving puzzles in the woods and so on.

I love WW too, all Zelda games are excellent we are just picking sides of great games. But TP is clearly a step above in nearly every way but where WW is very different in style TP tries to be OoT 2 and I think if it had come out first it would be considered better than OoT.
 
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Juraash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,256
Wind Waker is the best of the lot and probably my favorite Zelda ever. For me, it captured that sense of wonder and exploration people talk about with BotW. Wind Waker is a near perfect blend of the things I enjoy in Zelda games.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,172
United States
I feel fucking crazy saying this but, out of those choices, skyward sword, and I fucking HATE forced motion controls.

I cant stand the ocean traversal and straight up quit everytime I make it to the triforce fetching part of windwaker. Wish they released extra dungeons in the hd edition...

Twilight princess always makes me think of a bigger, more boring version of ocarina if rewritten by an anime company. It's not horrible but I'd rather just play some of the 64 zeldas.

Skyward sword, on the other hand, was very visually pleasing and gave me a ton of new stuff to do that I'd never done in a zelda game before then. I hate motion controls SOOOO much and I still didnt mind the combat, flying sections, bomb bowling, etc. I think I even played most on a tiny wii u screen but yeah, better than windwaker of twilight for me at least.
 

Ekko

Member
Nov 4, 2017
630
The bolded is just flat out wrong. We only have to look at the main gimmick of each title. One has you influencing the wind, not only a part in traversal but also other gameplay aspects like the deku leaf. The other has a shitty wolf transformation that does nothing but make you wish it didn't excist every time it comes up. It adds absolutely nothing positive to the experience.


WW has:
- Better character and enemy designs. Literally every character outside of Midna and Zelda looks ass in TP.

- A better story. Tetra and the pirates are more charming than any character in TP. Ganondorf in WW is the best Ganondorf the series ever had.

- TP has so many shit boss battles. The only good ones were Stallord, Argorok and the final Ganondorf one. Fyrus is an absolute turd and Morpheel doesn't even do anything. While Ghoma in WW isn't too good either, at least it's visually striking. Ghodan, the bird and Molgera are more fun than almost anything in TP.

- The Deku leaf is better than any item in TP, because you can and have to use it outside of the dungeon you find it in (which is almost never the case in TP).

TP has good dungeons and that's it. It absolutely shits the bed in every other aspect and isn't even remotely close to the 64 games. Windwakers artstyle alone is bolder than anything TP ever tried, and the reason for that were all these morons who cried kiddy at WW back then. TP not only played it safe in terms of appeasing OoT fans but also tried way too hard to be edgy in terms of atmosphere.
So much hyperbole. Why does TP have shit bosses but WW does not? What makes one have so much more worse bosses??? Who gives a shit about the deku leaf? The spinner, double hookshot, and ball and chain were more fun to use. I like WW but come on. You admit TP has better dungeons. Shouldn't that be a big plus?
 
Nov 17, 2017
7,372
The wolf is an absolute chore to play as, about the only benefit is that it's quicker to go wolf than summon epona (which itself is a pretty huge flaw).

WW definitely has better character design AND gameplay. A lot of people don't like the ship, and that's fine... but it's almost it';s own little world and is a nice change of pace. Plenty to do on the water, and the HD version added a sail that gives you twice the speed which means even if you dislike the water it goes by much faster.

Bosses are less than 5% of the gameplay in a Zelda game, and the only one that really matters is the final boss... and the final boss fight of WW is much more satisfying than TP and that's not even talking about the story in general. Dealing with the fall out of OoT, a total post-apocalypse that's both cheery and very melancholic without being emo and brooding was a master stroke of design.

The item complaint is a pretty non-issue for both games for me.

TP is a fine game, aside from the DS titles, every Zelda game is essentially in the upper 90% of all games ever produced... but TP is just boring. Wind Waker was meant to be a big gamble on Nintendo's part, and Twilight Princess is the antithesis because of the backlash. It's the least experimental a Zelda game has ever been, it's incredibly safe and boring because of it. It's OoT with a boring wolf mode and just a couple additional items... Majora's Mask did more to separate itself from OoT and it was made in just one year.
I think the wolf if underrated. He moves faster than Link and his combat translates easily so it's never annoying using him. He can do unique things that human Link can't. Running faster isn't the only benefit. He can instantly kill large groups of enemies and his senses allow you to find secrets. There are actually lot of secret grottos found through Wolf Link that people never find and so they assume there's simply nothing to do with him. Just from a fun point of view, it's also entertaining talking to animals as the wolf or scaring villagers.

WW's gameplay is not better than TP's. The combat is worse and less varied, the dungeon items are less interesting to use and the dungeons themselves are much weaker in design. The ocean is pretty boring. I already made a post about it but SO much of the ocean is... well, ocean. Just flat blue with a tiny island on each square on the grid and when you're in the boat, you're limited even more than being Wolf Link. It's not fun to sail in the boat, it's basically braindead as you point the wind in a direction and do nothing. Though you could stop and try to pull up treasure, it's so pointless and boring, I don't know why you'd ever do it until you're required to. I mean, if the saving grace of WWHD is that they made a sail that gets sailing over with quicker and I don't know if you can say that's a strong indication of the quality of the ocean exploration.


Since when did Twilight Princess have more secrets to find in it's overworld? That world is dead and empty, even more so than the sea was in the Wind Waker. Some caves at the side here or there don't really make it any more interesting to explore.
I don't know if there's more to find in TP's world but there's almost as much if not equal to what there is in WW. There are caves, yes, and they're fun to find and explore. On a base level, why is a secret cave system any less interesting to explore than climbing the same copy/pasted wooden tower in the middle of the ocean and killing to bokoblins for a chest? It's more interesting if anything. TP also has hidden grottos which are the equivalent of the submarines in Wind Waker. There's also a few hidden mini-dungeons like the Fire & Ice arrow dungeons in WW except they're optional. There's a bunch of opportunities to find pieces of heart either via environmental puzzles that use dungeon items or mini-games like river rafting, fishing, snowboarding, etc. You can collect poes and golden insects which are found all around the overworld.

Twilight Princess has many of the same sort of things Wind Waker has to fill out its world except TP's world is far more condensed and streamlined so you come across these optional areas and secrets far more often and there's less empty space and downtime between points of interest. The Great Sea's huge problem is the great expanses of blue nothing you cross to find the small little islands in each quadrant of the map. The biggest problem with the ocean setting is just how flat it is and how much empty space exists. If sailing was more involved it would make sense but it's the most brain dead part of the game. You can spend a lot of time just doing optional side stuff in TP so there's definitely a lot to do and maybe if we sat down and counted out the optional things you can find and do in WW vs TP, WW might have more but it's not by a huge margin. And you know what, it doesn't really matter because TP covers that gap and more by actually having a healthy amount of good dungeons in the main game. WW probably should have more stuff to do because the main dungeons are really lacking and there's only a few in the game. But somehow I still find traversing in WW to be boring and too slow when it's supposed to be the main focus of the game and its strong suit.
 

bottledfox

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
725
Skyward Sword is a one-of-a-kind experience and I'm glad I put up with its eccentricities long enough to finish it.
 

Wamb0wneD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,720
So much hyperbole. Why does TP have shit bosses but WW does not? What makes one have so much more worse bosses??? Who gives a shit about the deku leaf? The spinner, double hookshot, and ball and chain were more fun to use. I like WW but come on. You admit TP has better dungeons. Shouldn't that be a big plus?
I never said one has "so much worse" bosses. The worst bosses in TP are easily worse than the worst bosses in WW though. Fyrus and Morpheel are straight garbage tier. The Deku leaf is one of the best Zelda items ever made. Not only has it use in puzzle solving trhoughout multiple dungeons but also in traversal in a fluid way and is heavily tied to the main mechanic of the game. Even in certain combat situations it's usable. The spinner is fun until you get out of the dungeon and you barely use it anymore. The double hookshot is a good idea for sure. The ball and chain was clunky as hell to use as a combat item and as a puzzle solving item.

Yes, it having better dungeons (outside WW's wind temple, which is better than any TP dungeon imo) is a plus. Never said it isn't. But when that's the only thing that's better then it just isn't enough, imo.
 

VDenter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,519
maybe if we sat down and counted out the optional things you can find and do in WW vs TP, WW might have more but it's not by a huge margin. And you know what, it doesn't really matter because TP covers that gap and more by actually having a healthy amount of good dungeons in the main game. WW probably should have more stuff to do because the main dungeons are really lacking and there's only a few in the game. But somehow I still find traversing in WW to be boring and too slow when it's supposed to be the main focus of the game and its strong suit.
I think both games are heavily flawed regardless. Twilight Princess didn't have good enough dungeons to make the entire rest of the game worth experiencing. Certainly not enough for me to replay it to completion. Everything between the dungeons is bad and the dungeons themselves weren't really all that good. The combat wasn't even improved from the Wind Waker. All the secret sword techniques that Link can learn are basically useless because the enemy variety, challenge and design is trash. None of them take advantage of the skills that Link can learn so before long everything in Twilight Princess starts to blur and it becomes a chore to play. This is all partially related to the bad pacing and the game has bad pacing from start to finnish. The tear collecting and everything with the Wolf is filler and adds nothing to the game. The long tutorial or just the long stretch of emptiness between dungeons is waste of time.

I think this video discussion basically summed up my feelings on Twilight Princess, more or less.


It's not a terrible game but where it fits in the series overall It comes across as a pretty disappointing entry, and it could have been so much more. Now Wind Waker wasn't that great either but Twilight Princess has really nothing substantial going for it. Wind Waker excels at some areas better than any Zelda game, few as there are, but Twilight Princess doesn't really excel at anything.

It should have been a leap in quality for the franchise but it was just bland. Hey at least it's no Skyward Sword.


The main point of this is that they were all three games sandwiched between the true classics.
Let's not classify Majora's Mask as a classic.
 

Metalgus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
663
Skyward Sword is by far the best traditional 3D Zelda game imo, it has the best dungeons and bosses, great music and design and excellent gameplay and puzzles. I think people would rethink their opinion on SS if they played it again today. Yes, it has some flaws, like the boring overworld, the slow start and the recycled fight against the Imprisoned. It only suffered from being released at a time where everyone expected a fresh take on Zelda. But only judging the game itself, it's clearly the peak of 3D Zelda to me.
I’m too busy to create my own write-up, so I will quote this and say I agree 100%. The gameplay is where this game shines, you’re almost always doing something cool.
 

Rez

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,375
Yeah, skyward sword is long past due for re-evaluation by the community as a whole.
 
Nov 17, 2017
7,372
I think both games are heavily flawed regardless. Twilight Princess didn't have good enough dungeons to make the entire rest of the game worth experiencing. Certainly not enough for me to replay it to completion. Everything between the dungeons is bad and the dungeons themselves weren't really all that good. The combat wasn't even improved from the Wind Waker. All the secret sword techniques that Link can learn are basically useless because the enemy variety, challenge and design is trash. None of them take advantage of the skills that Link can learn so before long everything in Twilight Princess starts to blur and it becomes a chore to play. This is all partially related to the bad pacing and the game has bad pacing from start to finnish. The tear collecting and everything with the Wolf is filler and adds nothing to the game. The long tutorial or just the long stretch of emptiness between dungeons.
I guess if we're arguing on the basis of you thinking the dungeons are bad then, well, it's kind of like... the dungeons are good. Haha, you know what I'm saying? There's not really a point to arguing on that cause I feel the complete opposite as you.

I also disagree that the things between the dungeons were bad. In fact, they're some of the best between dungeon parts of Zelda. The stretch between the Forest Temple and the Goron Mines is a fucking blast. So much cool and interesting stuff happens from exploring the Twilight Realm and fighting a bunch of monsters on horseback to sumo wrestling and tossing goron down Death Mountain. And there are some great story and character moments in there too. Twilight Princess really feels like a grand adventure. There's always something of note going on.

Combat definitely was improved from Wind Waker. Just from the fact that Link isn't a squirt with stubby arms and legs makes fighting feel so much smoother. The Hidden Skills aren't useless and you're assessment of them is really odd. It makes me think you never really used them that much because I can think of many scenarios where enemy encounters DO take advantage of those skills. The thing is they aren't required to beat the game so, yes, you can ignore most of them but why do that when they make combat more fun and let you be stylish and efficient in exploiting enemy weaknesses?

I never said one has "so much worse" bosses. The worst bosses in TP are easily worse than the worst bosses in WW though. Fyrus and Morpheel are straight garbage tier. The Deku leaf is one of the best Zelda items ever made. Not only has it use in puzzle solving trhoughout multiple dungeons but also in traversal in a fluid way and is heavily tied to the main mechanic of the game. Even in certain combat situations it's usable. The spinner is fun until you get out of the dungeon and you barely use it anymore. The double hookshot is a good idea for sure. The ball and chain was clunky as hell to use as a combat item and as a puzzle solving item.

Yes, it having better dungeons (outside WW's wind temple, which is better than any TP dungeon imo) is a plus. Never said it isn't. But when that's the only thing that's better then it just isn't enough, imo.
I still say WW had more duds for bosses than TP. TP has more outstanding boss fights while WW doesn't really have any greats. Like again, the plant boss, the fat ghost even the sand worm is only so liked because of the chika chika boss theme but is actually basic and a pain to fight.

The Deku Leaf is a fine item but I definitely feel like you're blowing it out of proportion. It lets you blow certain things and it's a hang glider. The Ball and Chain for its credit is actually super good. Yeah, it's clunky - it's a giant iron ball - but when Link holds it still in his hand, it can shield him from attacks and it can one-shot some of the more annoying enemies in the game like the gibdos, chillfos and armos. The Spinner gets used in the Lost Woods, Temple of Time, Hyrule Castle, City in the Sky and a few optional areas across Hyrule. You can also let it rip on enemies. Besides, it not as if Wind Waker didn't have items that didn't get much use after their dungeons either. Does anyone even remember the Grappling Hook? That thing that basically is made obsolete by the Hook Shot and the Deku Leaf? The Mirror Shield? How often does its unique attributes come into play outside its dungeon? The Skull Hammer isn't as useful in a fight as the Ball and Chain and it's basically the Megaton Hammer again. At least the Ball and Chain is something more unique.

Also Wind Temple is about as good as the lowest tier dungeons in TP. It feels like what TP considers a first true dungeon with Forest Temple.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,715
TP has the best dungeons but dungeons are such a small reason to play Zelda personally. The overworld is way more important, and WW has by far the best of the bunch.
 

KayMote

Member
Nov 5, 2017
632
Damn, Wind Waker is charming af, but man... I just can't understand why it's being loved so much.

It simply is - and please: no sane person could deny this - the most uninteresting Zelda gameplay-wise. It had a certain sense of exploration, sure, but apart from that it looks rather pale. Skyward Swords overworlds worked like a puzzle in itself and Twilight Princess had stuff like escort missions, snowboarding, goron beat 'em up etc. (to name a few examples) plus I'd argue that both games' dungeons were far superior in quality (and quantity) compared to TWW.
In TWW most of your progress is achieved by activating a cutscene in which you are told where to go, sail for a few minutes, find a certain person on an island, press A to talk to them...and voilà: there's your progress and your transition to the next cutscene. There's simply nothing interesting happening in TWW gameplay-wise.
 

daxy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,618
I like Twilight Princess the least of the three. Just about everything about it was really off-putting to me and it's the least memorable mainline Zelda game I've played to date. The one interesting thing about it was the implication that the old warrior teaching you sword skills was the hero of time. So that game probably goes at the very bottom for me. I'm sure it does certain things quite well, but I enjoyed very little of it. Too drab and too much of the same is what it comes down to for me. Of these three, I liked The Wind Waker most at a conceptual level, in terms of art style, fun characters, soundtrack and general atmosphere. Skyward Sword was hard to like because the controls didn't gel with me at all. It was a constant battle to get the game to do what I wanted. It did have a very interesting overarching story, a pleasant art style and a great soundtrack though.
 

Tito

Member
Oct 28, 2017
882
Wind Waker is a bad game with beautiful graphics. Mandatory minigames (I don't know how someone can say with a straight face they want to replay the camera game, the triforce hunt, etc), repeated dungeons, boring sailing, it's impossible to die, there is a "win any fight" button, etc. Terrible design choices.

Twilight Princess is a mixed bag, some fun parts, the dungeons are there and there's a lot of them (don't get what is so special about them, there are a lot, standard Zelda dungeons, they are fine), the items are crappy because you can only use them in the designated spot, unlike OOT that you could use the hookshot in any wooden surface. Fun at times, boring at times; uninspired big budget Zelda game.

I can't bring myself to finish SS, everything there is bad design. I'm glad many of it's ideas are greatly realized in BotW, which is a classic, and one of the best games of all times.

Of the three, I would play TP any day instead of the extremely flawed options.
 

Quacktion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,763
Initially liked TP more, then after some time WW, but as time goes on my appreciation for both grows in intervals so currently Im more of a TP guy, especially after playing both it and WW in HD form recently, but this is due to change at some point. Same thing with OOT and MM, and I can only hope BOTW2 will be that to BOTW.


...man, poor Skyward Sword XD. Its a good game but its flaws shine the brightest out of all 3D games.
 

aerozombie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,022
Twilight Princess is my favorite 3D Zelda of all time, and Skyward Sword is my second most disliked of the franchise. WW was fine, but not nowhere near my favorite
 

Shugga

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,345
Why is this website so wrong about Zelda games. It’s Twilight Princess and it’s not close.

WW has clear cut content with a rushed ending, a lack of dungeons, poor dungeons too. It’s fun cause it’s a big world with charming people and a unique Zelda story.

Does it really do much that’s better than TP, nope. TP far far far far better dungeons. TP way better variety in things to do. TP much better items. TP better puzzles. TP better boss battles. TP longest quest. While WW combat was very fast and snappy, TP improved on it with more moves and items.

Everything GAME wise TP does better. But people care about story which whatever. Open world exploration, I’ll take non stop great design than just exploring for the sake of exploring. If you care about gameplay, it’s TP.

Twilight Princess is worthy of being with the N64 masterpieces, the other two do not.
TP has mediocre dungeons and shit puzzles.
 

Kanmurukillua

Member
Jan 28, 2019
1,197
I've never played TP but I'll always hold to the opinion that WW feels actually unfinished. The way you get the third pearl and then the Triforce Quest both feel like they ran out of time when making the game. Everything else is fun but I just feel like it was never a finished game.
 
OP
OP
ManCityX

ManCityX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,609
Manchester, England
TP has the best dungeons but dungeons are such a small reason to play Zelda personally. The overworld is way more important, and WW has by far the best of the bunch.
Up until BotW the dungeons were probably the core of every Zelda game.

More confusingly, how on earth does Wind Waker have the best overworld? It’s empty sea with barely anything worthwhile outside a handful of core islands.
 

DiK4

Member
Nov 4, 2017
617
Twilight Princess stomps on these games. And after its finished stomping them with Epona's hooves that are equipped with iron boots it shoots bomb arrows at them and then hops on a spinner and slowly spins away, laughing into the sunset.
 

Rez

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,375
Skyward Sword has been re-discussed many times (including multiple attempts at "positive opinions only" threads) and the consensus has remained the same for the past 8 years: Game ain't good, y'all.
my point isn’t that everyone is going to, like, come to jesus or w/e, it’s more that it’s kind of fun to appreciate it as both a starting point *and* an evolutionary dead-end now that the Wii is gone and we see where they ultimately went with BOTW. Now, in 2019, Skyward Sword’s existence is less of a burden on itself. It can just be what it is: a weird, flawed, but fascinating look at what a team with what might as well be unlimited resources can achieve using motion controls and the entire Wii-ethos in a third person action adventure.

like, remove skyward sword from history and you probably don’t get BOTW. it’s a real joy to play both back to back and try to imagine what the team explicitly learnt from skyward sword — what they brought with them and expanded, what they discarded, etc
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,199
Austria
130 people are completely out of their mind.
I can see arguments for WW and TP but Skyward Sword isn't just a bad Zelda game, it's a bad game in general