The Wind Waker vs Twilight Princess vs Skyward Sword

The best Zelda game of these three releases was...

  • The Wind Waker

    Votes: 856 60.4%
  • Twilight Princess

    Votes: 417 29.4%
  • Skyward Sword

    Votes: 144 10.2%

  • Total voters
    1,417
  • This poll will close: .

mrfusticle

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,062
I'll never forget the feeling of disappointment after chugging through the endless tutorial in TP to finally be released into hyrule field... only to find a disjointed and claustrophobic overworld that even made oot seem expansive.. the biggest let down I remember in gaming.

SS was just a mess of ugly character design, super boring overworld and endless hand holding.

WW was charming, beautiful and adventurous.. too easy, true but I don't count that as a big negative. I'd love it if the did a remaster one day and added the obviously missing dungeon for the third pearl.
 

Asbsand

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,186
Denmark
only to find a disjointed and claustrophobic overworld that even made oot seem expansive.. the biggest let down I remember in gaming.
I was 12 when I played it and even then I pointed out things like this for myself. First it was the sight of no NPCs but just a bunch of forgettable looking enemies (those goose things that lay bomb eggs wtf??) and the music sounds soooo farty. My 12 year old brain was like "This isn't cool!"

And the story also fell really flat to me the first time. The whole end game is just full of brain going like "So if that, then... what?" and "But why is that a thing..?" to list a few:
  • Why is Ganondorf revived after the Zant fight? Zant says "Now my god has found a way back" but... uh, what was the cause and effect here??
  • Zant is killed but can be revived so long as Ganon is alive, he says. When Ganon is about to die he looks at his fading triforce and watches Zant snap his neck as a hallucination? Which way was the dependence between the two, again?
  • Oh no, we've revived Ganondorf and apparently he's been sitting inside the diamond shaped shield in the castle the whole time... doing what?
  • Hey GANON, YOU HAVE THE TRIFORCE YOU FOOL, like in Ocarina of Time -- Link and Zelda are HERE, USE IT.
  • The 4-staged final boss is a hot mess. Pacing is nonexistent and it feels like a jumble of individually cool setpieces.
  • Midna destroys the mirror of twilight right after they just said we've learned to live together in light and twilight. O...kay...?
  • Why the hell is everyone in Castle Town so jolly RIGHT OUTSIDE the sealed away castle where the royals are completely gone?
  • Again, what is the point of Ganondorf's entire mastermind plot? To sit on a throne and look evil?

Trash story. It's a Mass Effect 3 level of nonsense endgame.
 
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Asbsand

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,186
Denmark
This.

WW would be the best if the latter half dungeons werent terrible + that god awful Triforce Quest.
But the combat is better in Wind Waker. The auto-shield targeting in TP and enemies never dealing more than one than maybe two hearts at max makes it a cakewalk.

Also, Temple of Time, one of my all time least favorite ones. The whole thing is just linear and you go from bottom to top, then top to bottom in weird room layouts.
 

Miamiwesker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,072
Miami
TP has mediocre dungeons and shit puzzles.
No. I love how boss keys comes out and every one now thinks they are more educated on dungeon design, there are different kinds of dungeons. Every dungeon does not have to be a maze, they don’t have to offer choices. A dungeon can be a linear series of unique gameplay moments and that is exactly what TP provides. RE4 is a totally linear game, so does that make it bad, nope it’s a masterpiece.

TP has the lakebed temple and city in the sky which do make you think about the layout. Most of the others open in sections but every dungeon is designed for every room to be fun and interesting. Arbiters Ground is one of the best dungeons in series history with a gameplay mechanic unlike anything we have seen before, the best boss battle, an homage to the forest temple in OoT as well. Snow peak ruins is just incredible, again nothing like it, has some great puzzles to with moving ice statues around. The temple of time is pure genius, go all the way up one way then you have to see the same dungeon in a totally different light by bringing the statue down solving a series of puzzles and challenges. The worst dungeon Gordon Mines still has a super memorable sub boss when you sumo wrestle over lava on a moving platform. City in the sky is a masterpiece and you are basically Spider-Man so that’s incredible. Palace of twilight can be annoying at times but it has very unique challenges as well.

The whole point of a dungeon is to give the player an hour or more of condensed pure gameplay. Using skills, thinking about the level design, battling fun bosses, learning new gameplay mechanics, seeing totally new gameplay scenarios and TP dungeons have the variety and uniqueness that no other Zelda game has.

But the combat is better in Wind Waker. The auto-shield targeting in TP and enemies never dealing more than one than maybe two hearts at max makes it a cakewalk.

Also, Temple of Time, one of my all time least favorite ones. The whole thing is just linear and you go from bottom to top, then top to bottom in weird room layouts.
Combat feels snapper and faster in WW but TP has more moves and is deeper. And you cannot use the damage dealing complained when you are comparing it to WW, the game that started the whole lose 1/4 of a heart for damage. WW is a way easier game than TP.
 

Shugga

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,345
No. I love how boss keys comes out and every one now thinks they are more educated on dungeon design, there are different kinds of dungeons. Every dungeon does not have to be a maze, they don’t have to offer choices. A dungeon can be a linear series of unique gameplay moments and that is exactly what TP provides. RE4 is a totally linear game, so does that make it bad, nope it’s a masterpiece.

TP has the lakebed temple and city in the sky which do make you think about the layout. Most of the others open in sections but every dungeon is designed for every room to be fun and interesting. Arbiters Ground is one of the best dungeons in series history with a gameplay mechanic unlike anything we have seen before, the best boss battle, an homage to the forest temple in OoT as well. Snow peak ruins is just incredible, again nothing like it, has some great puzzles to with moving ice statues around. The temple of time is pure genius, go all the way up one way then you have to see the same dungeon in a totally different light by bringing the statue down solving a series of puzzles and challenges. The worst dungeon Gordon Mines still has a super memorable sub boss when you sumo wrestle over lava on a moving platform. City in the sky is a masterpiece and you are basically Spider-Man so that’s incredible. Palace of twilight can be annoying at times but it has very unique challenges as well.

The whole point of a dungeon is to give the player an hour or more of condensed pure gameplay. Using skills, thinking about the level design, battling fun bosses, learning new gameplay mechanics, seeing totally new gameplay scenarios and TP dungeons have the variety and uniqueness that no other Zelda game has.
I agree that lakebed temple is great because it has you thinking about what you're doing. City in the sky is also a good use of verticality.
The others are just way too straightforward to deserve praise. Introduce one quirky gameplay element, milk it with some progression of difficulty (but not really), then boss. Boring.

Not everything has to be water temple, but having you think about what you're doing and what it influences is good. MM is great with that.
 

Miamiwesker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,072
Miami
I agree that lakebed temple is great because it has you thinking about what you're doing. City in the sky is also a good use of verticality.
The others are just way too straightforward to deserve praise. Introduce one quirky gameplay element, milk it with some progression of difficulty (but not really), then boss. Boring.

Not everything has to be water temple, but having you think about what you're doing and what it influences is good. MM is great with that.
So you think all linear games are boring? I still found myself thinking about what I was doing in most dungeons in TP, maybe not in the full dungeon sense but in sections yes. Yeah there are better dungeons in other Zelda games, but there is no better collection of dungeons than TP.
 

Shugga

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,345
So you think all linear games are boring? I still found myself thinking about what I was doing in most dungeons in TP, maybe not in the full dungeon sense but in sections yes. Yeah there are better dungeons in other Zelda games, but there is no better collection of dungeons than TP.
Linearity is somewhat subjective. If you take the naive approach of boss key, most zelda dungeons are linear anyway. But I find most of TP's dungeons too simple when it comes to complexity. Sure they look good and have fun gimmicks, but they're just theme park rides in the end.

I prefer OOT's dungeons, or MM if we don't take quantity into account. Also prefer SS's overall, even though the sky keep is a bit too blatant in its design it's a fun gimmick to have once.
 
Nov 17, 2017
7,372
More confusingly, how on earth does Wind Waker have the best overworld? It’s empty sea with barely anything worthwhile outside a handful of core islands.
That's something I'll never get. The ocean is flat and empty and traversing it is boring. The amount of down time when you're sailing is insane. I remember rotating the camera around the boat so often just to try and entertain myself on my way to my destination.
 

Ephonk

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
887
Belgium
Skyward Sword is in a desperate need for QoL upgrades besides its washed out visuals. I would appreciate it more if it didn't have so many annoying elements like fi interrupting, the backtracking, flight that doesn't work that well, always the same message when you open a chest/get a rupee for this first time in a session etc.

For me Wind Waker wins in its WiiU HD version.
 

Phabh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,210
Wind Waker's artstyle and sea faring X TP's dungeons X SS's small levels as islands.
 
Nov 17, 2017
7,372
But the combat is better in Wind Waker. The auto-shield targeting in TP and enemies never dealing more than one than maybe two hearts at max makes it a cakewalk.

Also, Temple of Time, one of my all time least favorite ones. The whole thing is just linear and you go from bottom to top, then top to bottom in weird room layouts.
Are we going to pretend like Wind Waker was this ultra challenging game? Twilight Princess and Wind Waker are both easy games. I don't think I've ever been killed by an enemy in either one of them. But somehow TP always gets flak for its difficulty while WW is just excused.

Combat in TP is way better than WW. Most of WW's enemies don't put up any sort of fight or any unique kind of strategy you have to work against. You mostly just whack them with your sword, which always feels awkward with Link's proportions. When you do fight against enemies that are a little more threatening like Moblins or Darknuts, the combat literally devolves into strafing until the game says "PRESS A" so you automatically do a cool parry move. In Twilight Princess, the game gives you those same parry moves and says "Hey, you're a smart player. Why don't you decide when you should use these moves instead of us telling you to?" Yet some would make the argument that Hidden Skills in TP are not good because the game doesn't hold your hand and force you to use them to kill specific enemies like in Wind Waker where you're just waiting for the game to tell you when it's ok to do damage.

Temple of Time, by the way, is a great dungeon. Linear does not equal bad. In fact, it being linear is the whole point as you go through one end, dealing with a variety of obstacles and then you obtain a giant statue that you can control on the way back that allows you to interact with those obstacles in a completely different way. It's a unique and interesting dungeon in that sense but I feel like a bunch of Zelda fans watched one Youtube guy say "linear is bad" and now think TP's dungeons are bad when it's widely considered to have the best dungeons

No. I love how boss keys comes out and every one now thinks they are more educated on dungeon design, there are different kinds of dungeons. Every dungeon does not have to be a maze, they don’t have to offer choices. A dungeon can be a linear series of unique gameplay moments and that is exactly what TP provides. RE4 is a totally linear game, so does that make it bad, nope it’s a masterpiece.
Ah that's what the video was called. Yeah, that's definitely some confirmation bias if I've ever saw it. Like you don't have to like the dungeons in TP but it's pretty hilarious how TP has been known for having some of the best dungeons in the series and then just one guy voices his opinion that he doesn't like it and suddenly TP haters are constantly throwing that video around as ultimate proof that actually everyone is wrong about how good the dungeons in TP are. Even though people really enjoyed them, they just didn't know any better because that one Youtube guy said they were bad for being linear.

I watched the guys videos and he seems to have a very particular taste when it comes to Zelda dungeons and anything that doesn't go along with that, he dislikes. And that's fine, honestly. I just don't know why his video is preached like the gospel. Even when people aren't citing it directly, they make almost the same arguments he made in that video.
 

C.Mongler

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,540
Washington, DC
Wind Waker is a joy from start to finish, with the only exception being the long travel times and the pacing wall that is the Triforce quest; both of which are greatly improved in the Wii U re-release.

Twilight Princess, in my opinion, is pretty good, it's just too damn long and the ending sections felt kinda haphazard sometimes (such as the ole' baddie switcheroo). Never got around to playing the Wii U version so I'm not sure what was improved there. It's one of the weaker 3D Zeldas, but I don't think it's bad.

Skyward Sword is the only 3D Zelda I have yet to beat. I don't feel comfortable giving a full opinion on it given that, but it's the only Zelda that has bored me to disinterest before completing the first dungeon. I've restarted it like 4 times and every time, I fizzle out very quickly. I really don't know what it is, but this game has never really grabbed me in the way literally every other game in the franchise has.
 
Oct 28, 2017
528
Wind Waker cracks my top 5 games ever made; so yeah I voted for that one.
Never felt compelled to beat SS, the only mainline 3D Zelda I haven't completed.
 

Asbsand

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,186
Denmark
Are we going to pretend like Wind Waker was this ultra challenging game?
It was definitely too easy. They're both extremely easy but I personally felt the mechanics design between Link and the enemies has a fluidness in Wind Waker that TP can't match. In TP everyone has way too many iframes and you'll constnatly knock over enemies and wait just a bit too long before they get on their feet. It just felt clunkier to me and on top of that it was piss easy, especially because there is no "Hold R to shield" and by doing it automatically, you basically block everything you're targeting. Bosses relying too much on having a "puzzle state" and "damage state" is also bad imo. In Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker and Majora's Mask the rule is that as long as you can figure out how to get there, a boss can always be damaged. In TP there's a desire to make it "epic" and so all bosses were broken more into having an aggressive state and a "Here come and deal damage to me" state, and it's emphasised by triumphant music. I find TP has very weak dynamics compared to WW.
 

Big G

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,736
More confusingly, how on earth does Wind Waker have the best overworld? It’s empty sea with barely anything worthwhile outside a handful of core islands.
That's something I'll never get. The ocean is flat and empty and traversing it is boring. The amount of down time when you're sailing is insane. I remember rotating the camera around the boat so often just to try and entertain myself on my way to my destination.
Not only that, but I found the grid layout with one interesting location per square to be incredibly unimaginative.

I've never understood the praise for its overworld, either.

(In fairness, TP's wasn't much better and SS's was arguably worse. It's why BotW needed to happen the way that it did.)
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,715
Up until BotW the dungeons were probably the core of every Zelda game.

More confusingly, how on earth does Wind Waker have the best overworld? It’s empty sea with barely anything worthwhile outside a handful of core islands.
It's one of the only games ever to make me feel happy by simply existing there.
 
Nov 17, 2017
7,372
It was definitely too easy. They're both extremely easy but I personally felt the mechanics design between Link and the enemies has a fluidness in Wind Waker that TP can't match. In TP everyone has way too many iframes and you'll constnatly knock over enemies and wait just a bit too long before they get on their feet. It just felt clunkier to me and on top of that it was piss easy, especially because there is no "Hold R to shield" and by doing it automatically, you basically block everything you're targeting.
I think WW actually lacked fluidity in its movements due to Link's short range and proportions. Like his regular sword swings felt like these short little jabs forward and he would often end combos doing that awkward leap. I think it's demonstrated best in that mini game with the sword master who challenges you to hit him 100 times without getting hit. This just something disjointed about the way Link moves and attacks which is probably why they had to make the whole parry system automated instead of giving control to the player. TP Link doesn't have these problems.

I never really noticed enemies having too many iframes in battle. If you're talking about enemies that are knocked over and you have to wait for them to get on their feet well... you don't.



Look at that, the Hidden Skills actually are useful. If enemies didn't fall down like this, you'd never have the chance to use the move. So if you're just waiting for them to get up, that's more on you than the game. Whenever I hear people say the Hidden skills aren't useful, I know the person isn't used to using moves in a game unless the game holds their hand and tells them exactly when to do it, like they do in Wind Waker, instead of experimenting with them and seeing how certain moves interact with certain enemies which is something TP allows you to do on your own.

As for the whole shield thing, I never noticed any real issue with that. Enemies still find ways to hit you plenty of times because they often attack you in ways you can't easily shield. In Wind Waker, you did have to press a button to shield but there was almost never a reason to do it in regular combat. Usually it was just so you could bounce a projectile back at an octorok. In combat, it was far more efficient to just mash the attack button or with more threatening enemies like Darknuts, strafe until the A button flashes so you can automatically do a bunch of damage. Compare that to Twilight Princess's Darknuts which were a far more engaging encounter because even though you stripped their armor in almost the exact same way, the game didn't hold your hand in how to fight them and you had to decide when it was safe to do a Back Slice or approach them with a Shield Bash to set up the Helm Splitter. It felt cool to do those things because you earned them as opposed to simply being handed them in WW.


Not only that, but I found the grid layout with one interesting location per square to be incredibly unimaginative.
Yeah the grid layout makes the ocean very stale and predictable. Every square on the map has one point of interest. Usually a small island unless it's one of the main ones like Windfall or Tower of the Gods, etc. And when it's a smaller island, it usually only takes up 10-20 percent of the whole square and the rest is just empty ocean. Occasionally you will find something like a random enemy outpost or sub but these aren't any different or better than what you find in other Zelda games.

Filling out the map in WW ended up being very systematic which went against the whole exploration idea. TP's overworld is a lot more streamlined than WW and still ends up not feeling as systematic because the map isn't just a grid. Even then, the point of TP was not exploration so the fact that its better than WW is honestly a major point when looking at WW's flaws.
 

Asbsand

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,186
Denmark
I think WW actually lacked fluidity in its movements due to Link's short range and proportions. Like his regular sword swings felt like these short little jabs forward and he would often end combos doing that awkward leap.
On the contrary in TP:
I kept missing the "finishers" because yeah, wrong angle and you don't actually home in properly.
Jump attack has a long reach but is also sensitive to sideways positioning.
Enemies keep falling after jumps or 3-hits but don't die and you end up just waiting until you finally get the land-finisher.
The AI of enemies, particularly darknuts doesn't work if they're in the same room. They have a static behavior.

Rolling around enemies and really most of the "advanced" moves was created by taking the context-sensitive actions from WW (yes, it's the same engine, that's on record) and putting them in the hands of the player rather than being contextual reaction mechanics. As I said, I think it hurts the dynamics of swordplay when it's obviously trying to do the opposite. The only time "Helm splitter" makes sense in WW is when there are armored guys with helms of which there is one type of enemy, and all your context-reactions to their attacks involves rolling around or jumping over to knock off pieces of their armor. I think on paper it sounds better to be given the choice to roll and helm-split manually but the execution in TP is that you end up spamming the rolls and helm-splitting can turn into an almost mindless and easy victory.

The whole idea of the context-sensitive combat was that it makes you go defensive. If you want to beat a Darknut you have to counter it, unless you use other tools than the sword. You open yourself to take a hit when you want to counter. If you miss the "!" cue you get smacked, and enemies like Darknuts and Moblins actually hit hard.

I think the only enemies that do more than 2 hearts of damage in TP are the last two Darknuts inside Hyrule Castle. The rest is just piss easy, and WW is generally easy too, but once you're in a room of many moblins and darknuts, take a swing from them and you'll see like 4 hearts or something drop down, and the impact of the hit is also aesthetically impactful.

To me WW just has a marked improvement over TP's wonky and underdesigned combat. Overall TP's moveset feels like it lacked compatibility with the enemies in the game, like it was designed for a much more advanced combat-driven game that we didn't get.

PS: the leaps in WW that end up continuing the combo into thin air at least ends in a spin-attack which has a great range, so you often end up hitting someone regardless.

PPS: Say what you will about the grid-layout and its lack of density, but at least it wasn't completely empty like Hyrule Field in TP. There's actually minigames, treasures, secret bosses, and aesthetically there's always a BotW-like anticipation when you see an island from afar and close in to see its peculiar and unique shape. The world felt genuinely mysterious at first and sometimes I thought it paid off.
 
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Jan 11, 2018
2,238
Twilight Princess, because of the mood and atmosphere, and best in series dungeon design. Skyward Sword is actually pretty close behind. I love the motion controls, music, and how the overworld is more dungeon like than ever before.

Wind Waker is one of my least favorite Zelda games. The sailing, tingle quest, the small amount of dungeons and lackluster dungeon design all brought it down. It's quite pretty looking though.
 

Fuchsia

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,875
The Wind Waker is the best out of those three by far. All three have their issues, sure, but I couldn't even bring myself to finish TP or SS. They are still great games but WW is just on a different level in my opinion. I say this as someone who doesn't care as much about dungeons in Zelda games though... So take that as you will.
 
Nov 17, 2017
7,372
On the contrary in TP:
I kept missing the "finishers" because yeah, wrong angle and you don't actually home in properly.
Jump attack has a long reach but is also sensitive to sideways positioning.
Enemies keep falling after jumps or 3-hits but don't die and you end up just waiting until you finally get the land-finisher.
The AI of enemies, particularly darknuts doesn't work if they're in the same room. They have a static behavior.
If you perform the Ending Blow from a weird angle, then yes, you'll miss and Link will get stuck in the ground leaving himself open to attacks. Yes, that's your punishment for messing up and the game expects you to execute the move properly. It's not like Wind Waker were it hands you these kind of things. There's actually a margin for error. I'm not sure what you mean by the Jump attack. Yes, it doesn't have great horizontal coverage. That's the point of the move. There are many other moves that let you cover more ground like the spin attack, horizontal slashes and even the Jump Strike, which causes a shockwave. Again, I feel like this is a case of you not really using the Hidden Skills. Try a Mortal Draw on an enemy and see if they get up the same way from you doing three regular sword swings, for example.
I don't know what you mean by the AI. Darknuts work fine when together. They're really challenging because they all attack you at once so you have to carefully plan when the strike, even attempt to isolate them, unlike WW, which again, will hold your hand and tell exactly when it's the time to press the A button and get guaranteed damage. There's no strategy or defensiveness at play. Those multi Darknut encounters were far more fun in TP than in WW which were total snooze fests.

Rolling around enemies and really most of the "advanced" moves was created by taking the context-sensitive actions from WW (yes, it's the same engine, that's on record) and putting them in the hands of the player rather than being contextual reaction mechanics. As I said, I think it hurts the dynamics of swordplay when it's obviously trying to do the opposite. The only time "Helm splitter" makes sense in WW is when there are armored guys with helms of which there is one type of enemy, and all your context-reactions to their attacks involves rolling around or jumping over to knock off pieces of their armor. I think on paper it sounds better to be given the choice to roll and helm-split manually but the execution in TP is that you end up spamming the rolls and helm-splitting can turn into an almost mindless and easy victory.

The whole idea of the context-sensitive combat was that it makes you go defensive. If you want to beat a Darknut you have to counter it, unless you use other tools than the sword. You open yourself to take a hit when you want to counter. If you miss the "!" cue you get smacked, and enemies like Darknuts and Moblins actually hit hard.
Only two of the Hidden Skills are from Wind Waker: Back Slice and Helm Splitter. The remaining 5 are not. I think removing them from those context-sensitive moments actually makes them better. So Link is capable of rolling around an enemy and slashing their back. That's awesome! What do you mean he only does it if the enemy has some very obvious strings holding its armor together on its back? Link can also leap high into the air and slash an enemies head? Incredible! Why would he only do that when the enemy has a helmet? It would hurt a lot either way, right? The context sensitivity doesn't make sense when it seems logical that Link should be able to do that move on most enemies. It only feels limiting.

And you know, what? Some of the Hidden Skills are context sensitive! You can't use Ending Blow without the context of you knocking your enemy down. Helm Splitter can't be used without the context of you stunning them with a Shield Bash. In both cases, there is a context sensitive moment that is created by the player. That is unlike Wind Waker where the context is created by the game. In Wind Waker, you strafe until the game says to press A. The player doesn't earn the parry. They don't even need to watch the enemies movements to find an opening. Just wait for the flashing button to appear on screen.

That's the thing. The Hidden Skills do have compatibility with the enemy design in Twilight Princess. The difference is the game doesn't need to go "ENEMY HAS HELMET PRESS A NOW TO DO HELMET BREAKING ATTACK." It's more fluid. Unlike Wind Waker, TP's moves aren't square blocks for square holes, they aren't just simple keys for locks. You're free to use it on any enemy that is susceptible to it, whether their wearing a helmet or not, whether the game is telling you Press A to Awesome or not. It's up to you to experiment with those skills and see how they work on different enemies and that's the fun of it that makes the combat far more dynamic than WW's even if both games are still very easy for the seasoned Zelda player. (I think we tend to forget in these discussions about game difficulty that many people who aren't used to Zelda or 3D action don't always find these games as easy as people like us who have been playing them for years. I realized this after watching a friend play through TP.) Personally, the difficulty of a game is far less important to me than a game making me feel engaged and making me proactive. Waiting for the game to tell me when I can parry is neither of those things. It's the antithesis of it really. That's why the combat in WW is much weaker than TP.

PPS: Say what you will about the grid-layout and its lack of density, but at least it wasn't completely empty like Hyrule Field in TP. There's actually minigames, treasures, secret bosses, and aesthetically there's always a BotW-like anticipation when you see an island from afar and close in to see its peculiar and unique shape. The world felt genuinely mysterious at first and sometimes I thought it paid off.
Twilight Princess's world isn't empty though. There are minigames, treasures, hidden caves, minidungeons, collectibles, minipuzzles. Sure there aren't secret bosses but WW only had the few basic squids which weren't even interesting to fight cause you were on the boring ass boat. And the thing is, TP's focus is not on open exploration in the way that WW tries to be. The exploration in TP is a supplement to the main adventure and yet its overworld is more streamlined and interesting to explore. There was no BotW-like anticipation for the islands in Wind Waker because you knew that for every grid on the map, there would be one small little island with a little thing to do on it. It was never a surprise; it was predictable and often disappointing. It was just a bunch of downtime as you went from grid to grid. At least TP gets to the point with its overworld and its points of interest are more close together and frequent that you're more actively engaged as you travel. WW literally lets you put the controller down as you sail. I've gone from Outset to Windfall without touching the controller.
 
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Eppcetera

Member
Mar 3, 2018
494
All three of them have some major flaw that annoys me, but Wind Waker is my favourite of the three, followed by Twilight Princess, with Skyward Sword in last place. Wind Waker would possibly be my favourite Zelda game if it was harder and had better dungeons, but it isn't and it doesn't. Twilight Princess has always been "Ocarina of Time, but padded out and not as good" to me. Then Skyward Sword came out and its padding was far worse than Twilight Princess's, its motion controls sucked, and Fi was my most hated video game companion ever (it has some cool dungeons and boss fights, at least). I should add that I like all three of these games quite a bit, especially Wind Waker, in spite of my quibbles.

I watched the guys videos and he seems to have a very particular taste when it comes to Zelda dungeons and anything that doesn't go along with that, he dislikes. And that's fine, honestly. I just don't know why his video is preached like the gospel. Even when people aren't citing it directly, they make almost the same arguments he made in that video.
Assuming you're talking about Mark Brown, he's very open in his videos about how he prefers a certain type of Zelda dungeon, although it's not exactly true that he automatically hates any dungeon that doesn't conform to his ideal. He praises the Temple of Time for its linearity and later recognizes that it's good for the series to vary its dungeon type. I liked his video a lot since it helped me understand why I was never terribly impressed by Twilight Princess's dungeons.
 

HemoGoblin

Member
Nov 3, 2017
191
I love wind walker the most out of these games. But if I’m honest with myself I think I’d give it to TP. WW is a joy to play mechanically, but the dungeons are lackluster and few. Plus the last two dungeons make you have an ai companion and that stuff gets old on replays. WW is beautiful and I love so much about it. But overall I just think TP has better dungeon design and consistency. Especially if we’re talking original releases. That triforce quest really drags man
 
Nov 17, 2017
7,372
Assuming you're talking about Mark Brown, he's very open in his videos about how he prefers a certain type of Zelda dungeon, although it's not exactly true that he automatically hates any dungeon that doesn't conform to his ideal. He praises the Temple of Time for its linearity and later recognizes that it's good for the series to vary its dungeon type. I liked his video a lot since it helped me understand why I was never terribly impressed by Twilight Princess's dungeons.
My phrasing was not great there. I don't think the guy in the video is being unfair or anything like that. It's his opinion which is totally fine but his tastes are clear. It's people taking his tastes and opinion and treating it like the gospel like all the people who have been saying they think TP has great dungeons don't know any better that annoys me. It all seems to have originated from the part of the fanbase that hates TP reacting with some serious confirmation bias from that specific video.
 

MP!

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,980
Las Vegas
I'll put it this way...
After Beating Windwaker I had my fill and was satisfied
After Beating Twilight Princess I had my fill and was satisfied
After Beating Skyward sword I did not want it to end. I wanted to be back in that world immediately. That game is so much greater than anyone gives it credit for.
 

Nocturnowl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,320
I've been pondering my answer to this thread since it was first made, and I just don't know.
wind Waker bums me out in how unfinished it is along with limp dunge, yet there's something to it that really pulls the package together.
Twilight princess is like the exact opposite,tons of interesting dungeons and a complete package, with a middling world and curious art direction.

skyward sword hits a nice middle ground but I'm not sure how much I'd dig it now. Wish it could get some kind of remaster, as it stands I think wind waker HD mighr edge out the rest but give me a skyward sword with similar small tweaks and I'd probably go for that.
 

Eppcetera

Member
Mar 3, 2018
494
My phrasing was not great there. I don't think the guy in the video is being unfair or anything like that. It's his opinion which is totally fine but his tastes are clear. It's people taking his tastes and opinion and treating it like the gospel like all the people who have been saying they think TP has great dungeons don't know any better that annoys me. It all seems to have originated from the part of the fanbase that hates TP reacting with some serious confirmation bias from that specific video.
I don't think people are really taking away the right message from the video if they use it to argue that Twilight Princess's dungeons are worse than its fans think, since Brown himself stresses that it's okay to like different types of Zelda dungeons and not necessarily the same ones he does. In my case, Twilight Princess is when I started getting tired of the Zelda dungeon formula (get map, get key, get item, get boss key, fight boss), and I was fascinated by Brown's observation of the player's path through four or five Twilight Princess dungeons being the same since I never even noticed that once while going through the game three times. However, Nintendo uses that formula because it works, and I get why some people are fonder of it than me (and it's not like Twilight Princess strictly follows the formula every time, as the Temple of Time has an interesting twist).
 

captainzombie

Member
Nov 29, 2017
219
Wind Waker and Twilight Princess for me were very enjoyable. I never got to play Skyward Sword. Would so love for Nintendo to bring all 3 to the Switch. It’s had me pondering picking up a Wii U of late to play through all three of these games.