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Oct 29, 2017
316
Paris
What's the point of mentioning Zelda negatively 4 times in a thread not about Zelda?
What's the point of making shit up like the OP not liking the story of The Witcher?
What's the point of thread whining?
What's the point in.trying to create a game war when i said in my post it's about naming bad contrôls since here Witcher 3 is said to have a "shit" "garbage" gameplay?
What's the point on defending this topic since Gerald is fully responsive unlike the motion control in Zelda Wii or Fantasua MD? But you can take a look at Bubsy 3d instead and i can say 3, 4, 5 times illustring weak gameplay and implantation and bad strory writting?
What's the point in not trying to get it?
 

Philtastic

Member
Jan 3, 2018
592
Canada
In the early levels of Death March, which is specifically what the OP is playing on, you die in one to three hits by quite a lot of enemies. The ability to survive an additional hit is of far more value than any of the other signs offer until you've seriously invested in them when the status effects play a larger part (and Aaxi at it's lowest level can still be used to instant kill human enemies who out-level you if that ends up a problem).

By the mid-game and later levels (in which case you still have a lot you can potentially do, most likely the DLC which is where this becomes a much more serious problem), you can tank more hits even on Death March. If you invest in Alchemy you can boost your health to ridiculous levels and dying is highly unlikely unless you serious make a mistake. The highest DPS is using Whirl, which, yes, does slaughter human opponents as well as pretty much anything in the game (I'm not sure if you've ever actually used it, but their block breaks while you use it before any significant portion of your stamina has been used and it goes through groups without much issue). At this point Whirl is not only the best damage output which you have access to but you no longer need Quen (and yes at this point the other signs have more utility, but you've reached a point where it's just as effective to not use them) because your absurd health pool makes surviving an additional hit totally negligible. Bombs certainly can be useful, but are completely unnecessary when the combat is already so trivialised to the degree there's nothing engaging about it. By the time you've access to the later level Alchemy Skills you've eliminated the need to use any of the defensive signs. By the time you've access to both the later Alchemy Skills and Whirl the combat is just there to slog through until you can get to the actual interesting part in the game. Playing poorly is to use any other build, because Alchemy with Sword is by far the optimal way to play the game, particularly on Death March, because it raises your health to an absurd amount and opens up stupid levels of damage which far exceed what you can get through the sign build. Unlike most RPGs it's not just trivialised when you're over the enemies' level, it's still a total slog when you're equal level to them (from about level 20 onwards, and particularly by the time you've reached level 35). If you think it's playing wrong to use the Alchemy and Sword paths (two of the three paths on offer to you, which open up far more damage potential and survivability than you ever get in the comparatively weak Sign path) then I'm not even sure how to respond because if you think that I'm not sure how you can not think that aspect of the game is designed anyway but poorly.

By the time the combat is trivial in The Witcher 3 you still can have anywhere from 30 to 60 hours left of content in the game. If it was only at the very end where this occurred then yes, it wouldn't be a big deal, but it happens when you still have a massive chunk of content in the game left which is why it's such an issue, because the game relies on using Witcher Sense and Combat to pad out quests when neither is engaging and it is subtracting from all of the good that's actually in the quest (the plot, the characters, the writing).



Using Alchemy removes any interesting aspect from the game's combat, and you're even suggesting this as a way to make the game 'more interesting'.

As soon as you use Alchemy your survivability becomes so absurdly high with Acquired Tolerance and Tissue Transformation that the combat becomes brainless, particularly when tied to Gourmet as the OP highlights. If you have to purposely go out of the way to ignore what are plainly seen as the best abilities (because Sign on Death March simply never remotely reaches a level of damage output available in the other paths) to gimp your character to try and make the combat interesting I'm not buying the claim it's somebody choosing to ruin the game for themselves and think it's much more evident there are more serious underlying issues with the gameplay (in terms of the balance which is available in the abilities, the simplicity of the combat being such that it's no more interesting to use the most effective route than to use a lesser route, and the game not providing any incentive to explore alternative options when any alternative is just making your character weaker and lengthening out combat encounters).

At the lower levels of the game on Death March Quen is by far the most logical thing to use in any scenario (except fighting over level human enemies) because the enemy damage output is so high that an additional hit is more valuable than crowd control offered by the other signs, and choosing to use a single cool down timer for signs discourages you from using anything else.

At the higher levels, if you include Alchemy in your character's build then quen's utility drops sufficiently so that it is encouraged to use other abilities, but the issue at this point is that you end up with such a massive hit pool with so many restorative options that using abilities is just delaying your main damage output. If you choose not to include Alchemy in your character's build then you never increase your health pool to the extent that Quen's utility over the other signs is diminished enough to encourage using anything else, in which case the sword path makes more sense to level than the sign path and you are lowering your damage output by using signs other than quen. There are major design flaws in the combat and levelling system (before we even touch on things like how Geralt controls, how the world was populated, the repetitivity of the quest design and over reliance on Witcher Sense) when there are options which are very clearly more effective than others to the extent that people claim using them 'breaks the game'/'ruins combat for oneself'.
I played on Death March mostly speced into sword light attacks with a side of signs. I was saving an Alchemy build for a hypothetical second playthrough but, after ~150 hours, I decided to give the game a long break. I most definitely tried Whirl, and it was terrible since I kept getting interrupted after only 2-3 seconds from incoming attacks, even with Quen which would evaporate in 1-2 hits (assuming multiple opponents. It was incredible against solitary foes). If stagger depends on how much damage an enemy does as a percentage of your health, I can see how having an incredibly large health pool would prevent your Whirl from being interrupted, thus making it an incredible death dealer, so the real critique is not that the combat mechanics are bad in general but that the Alchemy skill tree is too powerful. I can assure you that, without a huge health pool, the combat stayed highly engaging. This would also explain our very different impressions of the combat.

In the early game, I would disagree that using Quen (and, specifically, just Quen with dodging and sword swinging as many people suggest that this is all that the combat boils down to) is the optimal strategy. Early on, Quen only absorbs 1 hit which means that you're still playing very defencively as multiple enemies all take swings at you with a lot of dodging around looking for openings. In my opinion, the better strategy is to minimize the number of incoming attacks (ideally to zero) and maximize dps to remove enemies from the fight as quickly as possible (thus also reducing incoming attacks). You're right that, early on, signs have a low probability of triggering their crowd control effects. As such, I would use the bomb that you start with, Samum, to blind enemies in a large radius. As long as you only hit 1 enemy, most of the fight will be 1 vs. 1 which pretty much allows you to constantly swing with zero incoming attacks, thus increasing dps. You could complement this approach with Quen, but its wasted because there are minimal enemy attacks. You're better off using that stamina to either break the guard of enemies who start blocking or dodging or to interrupt multiple enemies if there are still 2-3 non-crowd controlled enemies.

As some examples of this non-Quen focused strategy, here's a video that I recorded a long time ago of some random Velen fights, particularly the first 2 scenes. Its non-ideal since I was fighting low level enemies in Velen to avoid spoilers (I was level ~25 using level ~5 gear: this was prior to level scaling being in the game, thus hard to find equivalent level enemies in such a huge world), but I think that it highlights some of the possibilities of a more aggressive approach where you minimize how many enemies can attack you to give you free attacks:


That mission were you had to stay inside the forcefields and fight off enemies while the forcefield was moving was so frustrating and really showed off how kinda "not good" the basic mechanics are
I might be misremembering which quest that is, but I think that you're talking about "Wandering in the Dark"? I can see how that would be frustrating if you were dodging all over the place. Block + counter, a basic mechanic, trivializes that encounter. Even if you mostly Quen and dodge, it's all about measured strikes and repositioning. Here's a video I recorded where I used a mix of block, Quen, Igni, Yrden, and dodging:
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,669
I played on Death March mostly speced into sword light attacks with a side of signs. I was saving an Alchemy build for a hypothetical second playthrough but, after ~150 hours, I decided to give the game a long break. I most definitely tried Whirl, and it was terrible since I kept getting interrupted after only 2-3 seconds from incoming attacks, even with Quen which would evaporate in 1-2 hits (assuming multiple opponents. It was incredible against solitary foes). If stagger depends on how much damage an enemy does as a percentage of your health, I can see how having an incredibly large health pool would prevent your Whirl from being interrupted, thus making it an incredible death dealer, so the real critique is not that the combat mechanics are bad in general but that the Alchemy skill tree is too powerful. I can assure you that, without a huge health pool, the combat stayed highly engaging. This would also explain our very different impressions of the combat.

In the early game, I would disagree that using Quen (and, specifically, just Quen with dodging and sword swinging as many people suggest that this is all that the combat boils down to) is the optimal strategy. Early on, Quen only absorbs 1 hit which means that you're still playing very defencively as multiple enemies all take swings at you with a lot of dodging around looking for openings. In my opinion, the better strategy is to minimize the number of incoming attacks (ideally to zero) and maximize dps to remove enemies from the fight as quickly as possible (thus also reducing incoming attacks). You're right that, early on, signs have a low probability of triggering their crowd control effects. As such, I would use the bomb that you start with, Samum, to blind enemies in a large radius. As long as you only hit 1 enemy, most of the fight will be 1 vs. 1 which pretty much allows you to constantly swing with zero incoming attacks, thus increasing dps. You could complement this approach with Quen, but its wasted because there are minimal enemy attacks. You're better off using that stamina to either break the guard of enemies who start blocking or dodging or to interrupt multiple enemies if there are still 2-3 non-crowd controlled enemies.

As some examples of this non-Quen focused strategy, here's a video that I recorded a long time ago of some random Velen fights, particularly the first 2 scenes. Its non-ideal since I was fighting low level enemies in Velen to avoid spoilers (I was level ~25 using level ~5 gear: this was prior to level scaling being in the game, thus hard to find equivalent level enemies in such a huge world), but I think that it highlights some of the possibilities of a more aggressive approach where you minimize how many enemies can attack you to give you free attacks:



I might be misremembering which quest that is, but I think that you're talking about "Wandering in the Dark"? I can see how that would be frustrating if you were dodging all over the place. Block + counter, a basic mechanic, trivializes that encounter. Even if you mostly Quen and dodge, it's all about measured strikes and repositioning. Here's a video I recorded where I used a mix of block, Quen, Igni, Yrden, and dodging:

I've played throughout on Death March (all except Blood and Wine, which I haven't yet started because I have not remotely enjoyed my time with the game solely because the gameplay has been such a negative) and tried a variety of builds, starting with a Sign Build and re-speccing into an Alchemy and Sword build (around level 18) because of how ineffective signs are in general.

My argument, as it has been throughout the thread (admittedly I've only made a few posts), is not the bolded but that the gameplay is highly flawed throughout (particularly how it was designed) and drags down what would be an otherwise enjoyable game into something which is tedious and frustrating.

One of the aspects which make the gameplay frustrating is that there are design decisions which contribute to making it a laborious process. In particular, the broken levelling system (where signs are comparatively useless at a higher level because of how signs scale with intensity, sword results in Whirl which stun locks enemies and is the highest damage you can output in the game, and Alchemy is so absurdly broken it turns you into an indestructible tank) and the decision to tie signs to a single cooldown timer rather than individual timers (which funnily has a much bigger impact at lower levels where Quen is so dominant and the signs are more useful) actively discourage experimentation. There have been multiple posters in the thread who have made the accusation that using quen is 'ruining the game on yourself' and suggesting that the OP should instead try alchemy because suddenly makes the combat more interesting, and a few of my posts have been in direct response to these claims; they overlook completely overlook how the broken nature of these aspects (although there is an irony to the one individual in particular who suggested going with Alchemy instead of just using Quen when that makes the game an even bigger exercise in tedium) is a significant issue with the gameplay and contribute to it feeling tedious.

There are other aspects of the game's design which contribute to making the gameplay unsatisfying to some people; these aspects include (but aren't limited to) how poorly Geralt controls when in and out of combat, the armour/weapon system breaking down to which Witcher Gear set you choose disincentivising you from collecting loot, the quest designs highlighting negative aspects of the game's design (over-reliance upon Witcher Sense making the quests feel repetitive, highlighting the poor movement with the horse racing, highlighting how problematic the basic combat is in the fist fights which breakdown into a game of 'parry, attack, parry, attack, parry, attack', and highlighting how poor the shooting is with the Skellige points of interest), how the combat 'feels' (this is certainly a lot more individual), and the map's points of interest being highly repetitive (the question marks rarely rewarding you with the 'good' aspects of the game, i.e. well-written quests or interesting characters; at least those which extend beyond the simplistic style of 'read this note from this person and find this hidden item mentioned in the note'). For every good hour of content, there is for me at least five hours of totally subpar gameplay (I've highlighted in a previous post how to me the thought of going back to play Blood and Wine is like facing going to work at a dull and soul-draining job for eight hours to be eventually rewarded briefly with what's actually good). Some of these I'm not very interested in as they've been well-talked about in the thread thus far. What I am interested in though (and take issue with) are the people who have suggested (as mentioned) that the OP is just 'playing the game wrong', because the game's design is a contributing factor to how the OP is playing it.


-[my post is quite long so that's the main 'part', from this point to avoid lengthening my posts to absurd degrees I'm going to stick solely to these things rather than including the below bit]-

---
On slightly less relevant points (which are designed more to address your rebuttals to what I previously posted and is more of a continuation of how certain aspects are broken) :

I am skeptical that you tried Whirl much if your experience was as you've stated, because Whirl stun locks human enemies it hits so it is exceptionally rare for a (non-ranged) attack to get through even if you jump into a group of enemies at a higher level than you (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E69ZeEH5HTA for a quick example; it does use alchemy to survive the attacks but the core of the gameplay highlighted simply relies upon Whirl). You can tank hits with Alchemy (more of an issue when there are ranged attacks), but Whirl keeps the enemies largely unable to even attack and rips through defences. It is absolutely broken in its efficiency and is the highest (consistent) DPS you can get in the game. At this point combat just becomes a rush of how quickly you can get through it. Rather ironically, EndlessFlood above who posted a video to try and highlight how 'good' the combat is does mostly the same thing throughout (post#720).

Quen absorbs a single hit, but when you die in typically two to five hits against equally levelled opponents that's a substantial additional amount of life provided. Of course you can use things like bombs to assist in the combat, but the core aspect of the combat is still going to be dodging, casting Quen, attacking during an opening, and dodging. If you don't manage to stun every enemy when involved in a group (particularly when there are enemies who can close distance, like Nekkers, or can disregard that such as archers) there is rarely an occasion when you're best served by resetting the cool down using anything except Quen because if you're attacked you're nearly dead. The enemies have enough life that using (for example) Igni and getting a single hit in is not as useful as ensuring you don't die (whereas with another sign, you could) and just getting a hit in anyway.

The game on a higher difficulty (and at a lower level) encourages a defensive play style simply because of how substantial a single additional hit from Quen is. This is when the single cooldown timer is even more detrimental to how combat is in the game, because it's at lower levels where Signs is actually most viable (because the best abilities are in the first two tiers, and Igni with a high sign intensity early does decent damage against the low-health opponents and also has good crowd control this early; whereas Alchemy and Sword become broken in the third tier). On a lower difficulty there's little point in exploring additional options because mashing attack will get you through reasonably well and anything else is just drawing it out. At a higher level the issues with the upgrade paths become more blatant and the combat becomes more tedious because there's never any fear of dying (unless you're purposely dragging things out); there's no skill needed to get through encounters making them unengaging and unrewarding because of how little mechanical skill is in the combat system, there's little to vary it (because signs become useless comparatively, the oils are just a damage buff if you've upgraded it and if you've not upgraded it it takes longer to continuously apply them than to just go through the encounter, bombs only are useful as a delay as their damage is minimal if not upgraded [and even then] but why do you need a delay when you can slaughter enemies anyway, and the less said about the crossbow the better), and there's little responsiveness in the combat to make experimentation fun (because you're just chipping away at a health block and there's nothing else there).

Particularly when you initially stated "This is so wrong but is also what I see come up the most. I think that it's a particular problem for the Witcher 3 because it's a game that allows you to play poorly and yet, through attrition of dodging and getting those 1-2 hits in, still eventually succeed" I think you are one of those people who are writing off flawed elements of the gameplay as people 'playing poorly' when you have to outright sabotage your own ability to not have the gameplay be mindless.

*This also largely neglects Gourmet (which the OP has stated they use), which provides life continuously for twenty minutes whenever you eat food which makes dying even less likely at the lower levels when paired with Quen and trivialises the combat on even the highest difficulty by so substantially adding to your survivability.
 
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Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
What's the point in.trying to create a game war when i said in my post it's about naming bad contrôls since here Witcher 3 is said to have a "shit" "garbage" gameplay?
What's the point on defending this topic since Gerald is fully responsive unlike the motion control in Zelda Wii or Fantasua MD? But you can take a look at Bubsy 3d instead and i can say 3, 4, 5 times illustring weak gameplay and implantation and bad strory writting?
What's the point in not trying to get it?
Something being shit doesn't mean there aren't way worse offenders out there. Yes, Witcher 3's gameplay is shit. The overreliance on Witcher Sense and repetitive combat are core parts of this game it fails at. Just because someone says it's shit doesn't mean they say it's unresponsive.
Saying Bubsy 3D is worse in all apsects than Witcher 3 is strange.. Like..of course it is. What's your point?
 

endlessflood

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,693
Australia (GMT+10)
I am skeptical that you tried Whirl much if your experience was as you've stated, because Whirl stun locks human enemies it hits so it is exceptionally rare for a (non-ranged) attack to get through even if you jump into a group of enemies at a higher level than you (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E69ZeEH5HTA for a quick example; it does use alchemy to survive the attacks but the core of the gameplay highlighted simply relies upon Whirl). You can tank hits with Alchemy (more of an issue when there are ranged attacks), but Whirl keeps the enemies largely unable to even attack and rips through defences. It is absolutely broken in its efficiency and is the highest (consistent) DPS you can get in the game. At this point combat just becomes a rush of how quickly you can get through it. Rather ironically, EndlessFlood above who posted a video to try and highlight how 'good' the combat is does mostly the same thing throughout (post#720).
I didn't make a vid to showcase the combat system. As I said in my post: "Here's a random vid I made of some swordplay. This is an end game totally OP build, I just really loved hacking the enemies to pieces."

If you read the video description, you'll see that I specifically state that it's a build that is completely built around Whirl, Rend, and Euphoria. It's a totally OP endgame build using stuff from the end of HoS and BaW. It's also incredibly fun to use against human opponents :D

Note that it's way less effective against monsters. Trolls and Bruxae in particular are completely immune to it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,669
I didn't make a vid to showcase the combat system. As I said in my post: "Here's a random vid I made of some swordplay. This is an end game totally OP build, I just really loved hacking the enemies to pieces."

If you read the video description, you'll see that I specifically state that it's a build that is completely built around Whirl, Rend, and Euphoria. It's a totally OP endgame build using stuff from the end of HoS and BaW. It's also incredibly fun to use against human opponents :D

Note that it's way less effective against monsters. Trolls and Bruxae in particular are completely immune to it.
The video is also prefaced by " I actually really enjoyed the combat in The Witcher 3, even if the combat itself isn't what makes it the best game of this gen." and the second sentence in what you're quoted highlighting "I just really loved hacking the enemies to pieces" would also suggest the video is meant to demonstrate strengths of the combat or an aspect of the combat which is good (be it how visceral it is, how fun it is, or otherwise). In contrast, to me, that video just highlights a lot of how the combat is highly flawed due to certain design decisions in the game.

The primary part that the build displays is available from level 33 (around the end of the main quest) at which point one can easily have Alchemy and Sword upgraded sufficiently to slaughter people with whirl and never die. I'm assuming you've the mutation Euphoria from Blood and Wine equipped and the Hearts of Stone ruin to increase Whirl Range which can take more time, but it certainly does not take until the end of The Witcher 3's content (main quest, sure, but there's a lot more available after) to end up as ridiculously overpowered as stating it's 'a totally OP endgame build' suggests.

The clip shown ultimately boils down to (and highlights) the broken upgrade system where Alchemy renders the combat redundant in the final twenty to fifty hours of the game **(depending on how you've been playing and how much content you've been doing as you go along) because you become indestructible and combined with Whirl your damage output becomes so insanely high it's self-sabotage to go with anything else because neither the sign path nor anything else (i.e. non-Whirl) in the Sword path comes close to it.

**EDIT: Personally speaking, I know 'immortality' on Death March is available at level 19 at the earliest (excluding skillpoints through shrines), if you add whirl for an insane damage output too to end the combat more quickly (instead of just mashing attack which is now viable and effective), it'll be a bit closer to the end of the game, but you can easily reach that level and have Hearts of Stone and Blood and Wine still left for at least 25 hours more content during which the combat is just a case of going through the motions.
 
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Oct 28, 2017
4,970
As long as we start doing the same with action games and having dumb plots. Time to rightfully bash Bayonetta and DMC as the shit they are for having stupid cheesy characters and stories.

Wait, we won't because "plot and stories are not the main focus of action games so its silly to judge them by it"? Well wouldnt you look at that.

Blanket complaints about cheesy characters and stories aren't a good criticism because its completely ignoring the application of said cheese. Its like criticizing the Final Destination series of horror movies for not having the emotional impact of properly crafted horror classics like Suspiria, Nightmare on Elm Street or The Shining. Its a completely valid criticism that prevents the series from being exceptional but its also a fundamental misunderstanding of the series at the same time. The movies are intentionally cheesy because they're macabre comedies where you're meant to enjoy Death getting back at stupid teenagers in increasingly creative ways.

In the case of Bayonetta and DMC, the plots are mostly scaffolding to justify action. Which prevents the game's plots from being exceptional but they're an excuse to allow the characters to do increasingly cool and stylish things. Considering the number of people who like the original DMC cast and Bayonetta/Jeanne, I think the plot works pretty well in achieving its goals.

When it doesn't do well to achieve its goals? We end up with the plot to Duke Nukem Forever where it doesn't put Duke in interesting situations, from both a humour or action standpoint. It doesn't help that they had no idea how to deal with the huge tonal shift introduced by the Hive level, that shit is just made doubly heinous because of Duke Nukem's history of being an irrelevant character.

How much does the bad story get in the way of the good stuff? Long unskippable cutscenes or forced walking sections full of talking and the like? If so, those games definitely deserve criticism for it.

The thing with most RPGs is that combat is a significant mandatory part of the game.

Edit: God of War (2018) is a brawler that decided to have a very heavy story focus. If you don't like the story then of course you bash the hell out of it. You don't go "it's a brawler so it's fine". Criticize a game for what it is, not what you "should" based on its vague labels.

Basically.

If God of War was incapable of building a convincing father/son relationship between Kratos and Atreus, it deserves to be picked on because its such a fundamental aspect of the game right down to the scripted events in certain boss fights. Same goes for Ellie and Joel's dynamic in The Last of Us. So many hours are spent on them walking around and talking that it would be malpractice to hand wave any problems in that department just because you like the action.

The Witcher 3 completely intended Geralt's Witcher sense mechanic to be interesting and combat to be an integral part of the game. After all, you can't tell Eredin to drop his sword and go home nor can you progress through a lot of quests without activating the Witcher sense and letting Geralt talk to himself. Keep in mind, I have the exact same problems with Rockstar's mission progression in much the same way (to go area -> follow/drive to another area while your companion talks your ear off -> shoot some people -> companion says thanks for the help bro). There's something extremely unnatural about these interactions when there's about a hundred quests that play out in the exact same way.
 
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Philtastic

Member
Jan 3, 2018
592
Canada
I've played throughout on Death March (all except Blood and Wine, which I haven't yet started because I have not remotely enjoyed my time with the game solely because the gameplay has been such a negative) and tried a variety of builds, starting with a Sign Build and re-speccing into an Alchemy and Sword build (around level 18) because of how ineffective signs are in general.

My argument, as it has been throughout the thread (admittedly I've only made a few posts), is not the bolded but that the gameplay is highly flawed throughout (particularly how it was designed) and drags down what would be an otherwise enjoyable game into something which is tedious and frustrating.

One of the aspects which make the gameplay frustrating is that there are design decisions which contribute to making it a laborious process. In particular, the broken levelling system (where signs are comparatively useless at a higher level because of how signs scale with intensity, sword results in Whirl which stun locks enemies and is the highest damage you can output in the game, and Alchemy is so absurdly broken it turns you into an indestructible tank) and the decision to tie signs to a single cooldown timer rather than individual timers (which funnily has a much bigger impact at lower levels where Quen is so dominant and the signs are more useful) actively discourage experimentation. There have been multiple posters in the thread who have made the accusation that using quen is 'ruining the game on yourself' and suggesting that the OP should instead try alchemy because suddenly makes the combat more interesting, and a few of my posts have been in direct response to these claims; they overlook completely overlook how the broken nature of these aspects (although there is an irony to the one individual in particular who suggested going with Alchemy instead of just using Quen when that makes the game an even bigger exercise in tedium) is a significant issue with the gameplay and contribute to it feeling tedious.

There are other aspects of the game's design which contribute to making the gameplay unsatisfying to some people; these aspects include (but aren't limited to) how poorly Geralt controls when in and out of combat, the armour/weapon system breaking down to which Witcher Gear set you choose disincentivising you from collecting loot, the quest designs highlighting negative aspects of the game's design (over-reliance upon Witcher Sense making the quests feel repetitive, highlighting the poor movement with the horse racing, highlighting how problematic the basic combat is in the fist fights which breakdown into a game of 'parry, attack, parry, attack, parry, attack', and highlighting how poor the shooting is with the Skellige points of interest), how the combat 'feels' (this is certainly a lot more individual), and the map's points of interest being highly repetitive (the question marks rarely rewarding you with the 'good' aspects of the game, i.e. well-written quests or interesting characters; at least those which extend beyond the simplistic style of 'read this note from this person and find this hidden item mentioned in the note'). For every good hour of content, there is for me at least five hours of totally subpar gameplay (I've highlighted in a previous post how to me the thought of going back to play Blood and Wine is like facing going to work at a dull and soul-draining job for eight hours to be eventually rewarded briefly with what's actually good). Some of these I'm not very interested in as they've been well-talked about in the thread thus far. What I am interested in though (and take issue with) are the people who have suggested (as mentioned) that the OP is just 'playing the game wrong', because the game's design is a contributing factor to how the OP is playing it.


-[my post is quite long so that's the main 'part', from this point to avoid lengthening my posts to absurd degrees I'm going to stick solely to these things rather than including the below bit]-

---
On slightly less relevant points (which are designed more to address your rebuttals to what I previously posted and is more of a continuation of how certain aspects are broken) :

I am skeptical that you tried Whirl much if your experience was as you've stated, because Whirl stun locks human enemies it hits so it is exceptionally rare for a (non-ranged) attack to get through even if you jump into a group of enemies at a higher level than you (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E69ZeEH5HTA for a quick example; it does use alchemy to survive the attacks but the core of the gameplay highlighted simply relies upon Whirl). You can tank hits with Alchemy (more of an issue when there are ranged attacks), but Whirl keeps the enemies largely unable to even attack and rips through defences. It is absolutely broken in its efficiency and is the highest (consistent) DPS you can get in the game. At this point combat just becomes a rush of how quickly you can get through it. Rather ironically, EndlessFlood above who posted a video to try and highlight how 'good' the combat is does mostly the same thing throughout (post#720).

Quen absorbs a single hit, but when you die in typically two to five hits against equally levelled opponents that's a substantial additional amount of life provided. Of course you can use things like bombs to assist in the combat, but the core aspect of the combat is still going to be dodging, casting Quen, attacking during an opening, and dodging. If you don't manage to stun every enemy when involved in a group (particularly when there are enemies who can close distance, like Nekkers, or can disregard that such as archers) there is rarely an occasion when you're best served by resetting the cool down using anything except Quen because if you're attacked you're nearly dead. The enemies have enough life that using (for example) Igni and getting a single hit in is not as useful as ensuring you don't die (whereas with another sign, you could) and just getting a hit in anyway.

The game on a higher difficulty (and at a lower level) encourages a defensive play style simply because of how substantial a single additional hit from Quen is. This is when the single cooldown timer is even more detrimental to how combat is in the game, because it's at lower levels where Signs is actually most viable (because the best abilities are in the first two tiers, and Igni with a high sign intensity early does decent damage against the low-health opponents and also has good crowd control this early; whereas Alchemy and Sword become broken in the third tier). On a lower difficulty there's little point in exploring additional options because mashing attack will get you through reasonably well and anything else is just drawing it out. At a higher level the issues with the upgrade paths become more blatant and the combat becomes more tedious because there's never any fear of dying (unless you're purposely dragging things out); there's no skill needed to get through encounters making them unengaging and unrewarding because of how little mechanical skill is in the combat system, there's little to vary it (because signs become useless comparatively, the oils are just a damage buff if you've upgraded it and if you've not upgraded it it takes longer to continuously apply them than to just go through the encounter, bombs only are useful as a delay as their damage is minimal if not upgraded [and even then] but why do you need a delay when you can slaughter enemies anyway, and the less said about the crossbow the better), and there's little responsiveness in the combat to make experimentation fun (because you're just chipping away at a health block and there's nothing else there).

Particularly when you initially stated "This is so wrong but is also what I see come up the most. I think that it's a particular problem for the Witcher 3 because it's a game that allows you to play poorly and yet, through attrition of dodging and getting those 1-2 hits in, still eventually succeed" I think you are one of those people who are writing off flawed elements of the gameplay as people 'playing poorly' when you have to outright sabotage your own ability to not have the gameplay be mindless.

*This also largely neglects Gourmet (which the OP has stated they use), which provides life continuously for twenty minutes whenever you eat food which makes dying even less likely at the lower levels when paired with Quen and trivialises the combat on even the highest difficulty by so substantially adding to your survivability.
First off, I totally agree that the RPG mechanics of this game are terrible: almost all of the loot is useless, oil, potion, and bomb management are cumbersome, and the leveling system just leads to being over- or underpowered. I really think that this game would have been better as a character action game with a skill tree that unlocks from exploring the world or doing quests along with an RPG-quality story. Concerning Whirl and early combat, I really don't want to download the 36 GB game right now to test things out and record video, so we're just going to have to leave it as "we had very different experiences with Whirl" and experimenting with different combat approaches, markedly impacted by the presence or absence of Alchemy skills. As some completely unreliable evidence that Whirl wasn't an automatic win button, here's a Steam thread near the game's launch where posters bemoaned how useless Whirl was against multiple opponents as well as a CD Projekt forum post 4 months after launch about how bad Whirl was. It's possible that the skill changed over the course of patching:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/292030/discussions/0/615085406663760385/
https://forums.cdprojektred.com/index.php?threads/whirl-is-bad-or-thats-just-me.57523/

A lot of what's said in those two threads reflects my own experience with it in the launch period without Alchemy skills: insanely good against single targets but pretty much suicide when surrounded. As such, I couldn't just hold down that one button and kill everything and actually had to engage with other abilities and tactics.
 

Kumomeme

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
668
Malaysia
Opinions I guess cause personally I'd take The Witcher 3's combat over Nier Automata's any day of the week.

Nier Automata is a lot more restrictive in what you can do with each character and it's a really basic version of the combat systems in Platinum's straight action games with an overused shoot em up system on top.

Bosses are inferior in Automata and even more so if we're about the DLC Witcher bosses. Combat with 9S is laughable as well. Little to no enemy variety, etc. The only thing it has over TW3's combat is a cooler dodge.(but it's OP)

The main issue with witcher 3 combat is responsiveness

For me mechanics is not the main issue..doesnt matter the game had complex or unique combat mechanic or simple one..simply make is responsive is enough

The combat indeed look great for watching...but not when we actually hold the controller
 
Oct 27, 2017
11,512
Bandung Indonesia
Signs-build are perfectly doable even in Death March.

However it does falter in New Game+, it just can't compete with straight physical and/or alchemy. Plus for some reason all the Sign-enhancing armors look terrible on Geralt, lol.
 

Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
26,089
Yeah, Griffin armor gives Geralt a beer belly for some reason. I really don't appreciate it. Do not give Gerald of Rivia a dad bod.
 

endlessflood

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
8,693
Australia (GMT+10)
The video is also prefaced by " I actually really enjoyed the combat in The Witcher 3, even if the combat itself isn't what makes it the best game of this gen." and the second sentence in what you're quoted highlighting "I just really loved hacking the enemies to pieces" would also suggest the video is meant to demonstrate strengths of the combat or an aspect of the combat which is good (be it how visceral it is, how fun it is, or otherwise). In contrast, to me, that video just highlights a lot of how the combat is highly flawed due to certain design decisions in the game.
Both of the statements I made are true, and reference different things, which is why they appeared in separate paragraphs :)

The video was just a random one showing a totally OP endgame build. I made it primarily for taking on the bandit camps in Blood and Wine while laughing maniacally, and I had a heap of fun toying with them (and hacking them to pieces). I thought the text made all of those things clear (except for the laughing maniacally bit)! I still enjoy watching that video, which is why I shared it.

I wouldn't want to play through the game with that build unless I was doing a speed run or something. Luckily you can't, it relies on the money-gated rune stuff (which costs a fortune) from Hearts of Stone, the Euphoria mutation from Blood and Wine, and the Mastercrafted School of the Manticore armour from Blood and Wine as well. It's as endgame of a build as you can get. It relies on the massive toxicity boosts of the Mastercrafted Manticore armour in conjunction with Euphoria and doffing a shitload of potions and decoctions during battle, as you can probably see by the sheer amount of status effects visible on the screen as well as the maxed out toxicity meter.

For a proper showcase of the combat systems of the game itself, you'll need to find a different video. I personally don't need to see one, since I played through the entire game and really enjoyed the combat: for me the litmus test is whether you actively seek out combat just for the fun of it, and that was something I did endlessly on my playthrough... which is why it took me so long ;) I'm sure there are good vids out there, but if there aren't then let me know. I can make one on my next playthrough (I need one more for platinum). I'm no master of the game but I'm happy to help share the knowledge if people are struggling.

BTW, here's a little bonus video of Ciri combat. This one is just a fun one too, please don't think that this is supposed to be a representation of the entirety of combat in the Witcher 3 :p

 
Oct 29, 2017
316
Paris
Something being shit doesn't mean there aren't way worse offenders out there. Yes, Witcher 3's gameplay is shit. The overreliance on Witcher Sense and repetitive combat are core parts of this game it fails at. Just because someone says it's shit doesn't mean they say it's unresponsive.
Saying Bubsy 3D is worse in all apsects than Witcher 3 is strange.. Like..of course it is. What's your point?
Seriously?
 

Vimto

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,714
Agreed OP, I really enjoyed the open world and travelling from corner to corner for exploration and doing side missions, the stories in the game are good too. But the actual combat is shit, which I value tremendously more than graphics or good story. I Couldnt bring myself to finish the campaign, had to drop it.

I can see how some people value good stories and put up with bad/meh gameplay, but for me gameplay is king.

FWIW I played it for ~40 hours so I guess the other aspects managed to hold my interest for some time. Not a bad purchase, but not a masterpiece either IMO
 

MajinArekkusu

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
427
Germany
Yes games like witcher 3 or the uncharted series don't have stellar gameplay, but it is good enough and it is the whole presentation that makes them the darlings that they are for a ton of people.
 

SunhiLegend

The Legend Continues
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,573
I wouldn't go that far but the combat just wasn't very good, at least in the couple times I've tried to get into the game, I must have put at least 10 hours into my second attempt but the combat being as it is I just couldn't get it to click, if I can't enjoy the combat in the game then there's really no motivation for me to continue playing.
 

4859

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,046
In the weak and the wounded

This is like common social knowledge, and pretending it isn't as the basis of some defense argument, is really pedantic and irritating.


Same with whataboutism being worthless garbage.

The fact Bubsy 3d combat is an even worse dumpster fire doesn't make the witcher 3's combat better.

Nobody cares about worse games, they care about having BETTER games.
 
Oct 29, 2017
316
Paris
Yes seriously. There aren't just two categories of games that are good and shit. There's nuance to that. When I say Witcher Sense and the combat are shit it doesn't mean I'm saying it's as bad as fucking Bubsy 3D. That's what you are reading into that, not me actually saying it or anyone in here, really.

Shit means shit, it does mean "playable with its problems" or "concern"s or "weakness", same for garbage. Even if some did not enjoy parts for some reasons, and it's perfectly ok, calling something shit means i pass on this because its like Bubsy 3d a shit, a garbage game in every possible way, or like the motion control + on Zelda, the controls are so bad that they destroy the whole experience, so do the lags in Fantasia MD. Its nothing like that in Witcher 3. People are ok not to like the quests or elements of gameplay, calling it shit or garbage, no way, thats not working anymore! The gameplay in Witcher 3 is not broken. Some will like it, some don't.

Shit means this : https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/shit and not anything else. But calling something shit seems like a perfect way to disclose any other opinion and to laugh at others "what you like shit" etc etc ect Calling something shit also mean, you have basically no argument than being rude, vulgar and that's crazy in a forum where people come to express opinion and exchange with others. It's also very childish.

I understand better you point now. WIth no vulgar words, that makes better sense.

I should not have jump here anyway. On Reset we alreadt had : God Of wars is shit topics, and The Last of US is not playable (shure it's night trap 2). There should really be some serious works done by (non gaming) journalists about the way gamers are unable to express themselves are absolutely lacking in nuances and how it's nocive and damaging the game industry as a whole. It is not sane or safe for some people to grow in such violent environment. I understand better the studies on the rise of depression among kids.
 

Space

Member
Aug 16, 2018
57
I played on Death March mostly speced into sword light attacks with a side of signs. I was saving an Alchemy build for a hypothetical second playthrough but, after ~150 hours, I decided to give the game a long break. I most definitely tried Whirl, and it was terrible since I kept getting interrupted after only 2-3 seconds from incoming attacks, even with Quen which would evaporate in 1-2 hits (assuming multiple opponents. It was incredible against solitary foes). If stagger depends on how much damage an enemy does as a percentage of your health, I can see how having an incredibly large health pool would prevent your Whirl from being interrupted, thus making it an incredible death dealer, so the real critique is not that the combat mechanics are bad in general but that the Alchemy skill tree is too powerful. I can assure you that, without a huge health pool, the combat stayed highly engaging. This would also explain our very different impressions of the combat.

In the early game, I would disagree that using Quen (and, specifically, just Quen with dodging and sword swinging as many people suggest that this is all that the combat boils down to) is the optimal strategy. Early on, Quen only absorbs 1 hit which means that you're still playing very defencively as multiple enemies all take swings at you with a lot of dodging around looking for openings. In my opinion, the better strategy is to minimize the number of incoming attacks (ideally to zero) and maximize dps to remove enemies from the fight as quickly as possible (thus also reducing incoming attacks). You're right that, early on, signs have a low probability of triggering their crowd control effects. As such, I would use the bomb that you start with, Samum, to blind enemies in a large radius. As long as you only hit 1 enemy, most of the fight will be 1 vs. 1 which pretty much allows you to constantly swing with zero incoming attacks, thus increasing dps. You could complement this approach with Quen, but its wasted because there are minimal enemy attacks. You're better off using that stamina to either break the guard of enemies who start blocking or dodging or to interrupt multiple enemies if there are still 2-3 non-crowd controlled enemies.

As some examples of this non-Quen focused strategy, here's a video that I recorded a long time ago of some random Velen fights, particularly the first 2 scenes. Its non-ideal since I was fighting low level enemies in Velen to avoid spoilers (I was level ~25 using level ~5 gear: this was prior to level scaling being in the game, thus hard to find equivalent level enemies in such a huge world), but I think that it highlights some of the possibilities of a more aggressive approach where you minimize how many enemies can attack you to give you free attacks:



I might be misremembering which quest that is, but I think that you're talking about "Wandering in the Dark"? I can see how that would be frustrating if you were dodging all over the place. Block + counter, a basic mechanic, trivializes that encounter. Even if you mostly Quen and dodge, it's all about measured strikes and repositioning. Here's a video I recorded where I used a mix of block, Quen, Igni, Yrden, and dodging:

I saw a couple of guides that didn't recommend the Quen spam if playing through on Death March, they recommended using Axii and building that up first, and using that as a crowd control.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 3534

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,537
I've never had more bittersweet feelings about a game. I just finished the Most Wanted quest and I just can't help but shake my head and smile at some of the random ways this game surprises you. Here you are, thinking you're doing a normal Witcher contract albeit one that's a bit fishy.

But you're following Witcher sense trails all the while. :/
 

AzureFlame

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,253
Kuwait
The gameplay is average at best and bad sometimes thanks to its clunky movement and horrible hit boxes, but the world, characters, ost, atmosphere is what made it for me.

i still love this game.
 

ShiningBash

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,416
Reading some of the comments on this thread, and I feel like some of ya'll need to re-calibrate your quality spectrum. Objectively speaking, there are sooo many games with worse combat AND gameplay. There are also many games that outperform TW3 in this regard.

Regardless, just because you don't like a thing doesn't mean that everyone who enjoys it has blinders on. The praise TW3 gets is because people liked the game for a variety of reasons, and it's pretty insulting to imply that we're all a bunch of partisan idiots for not sharing OP's perspective.
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
I like the gameplay and even the combat (not fantastic, though... yeah, on a scale there's really something between horrible and terrific). Feels like an action adventure where I'm on total control and not some numbers. Dodge is super responsive, attack could be more responsive with immediate strikes like in Hellblade and less time/fewer animations before the actual strike, but at least you can cancel attacks (which you can't in Dark Souls, by the way, and that really bugs me).

And the constant criticism about the quests' gameplay design fail to convince since you can break down the gameplay of most games to 'push a button'. And the only modern game that offers outstanding and diversive gameplay that keeps you surprised throughout the entire game and do not get repetitive (like in almost every game) is NieR: Automata.

In the end, for me, story and characters outweigh gameplay, because the former is what pushes me through a game, what makes it interesting and makes me wanting to know what happens around the next corner -- not the gameplay. Otherwise I couldn't play/finish games like The Walking Dead, Heavy Rain and co.

"Complete shit"... OPs being ridiculous....
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,466
Sweden
yeah i don't think i could deal with the gameplay in these games tbqh

mediocre gameplay is ok in a relatively short narrative game. but if they expect you to spend close to 100 hours? nah