The Women of Zack Snyder's Filmography (Video Essay)

Salamando

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Oct 25, 2017
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Just the idea alone that this is empowering because it is contrasted with the supposedly sexy dancing we never see is something I don't understand. Instead of a dance in lingerie we get an action scene in fetishwear, both are still the female characters being put on display for the audience.

Snyder trying to wag his finger at the former while pumping his fist at the latter shows just how ill-equipped he is for what he is trying to do.
Even then, my understanding of the "sexy dancing" in the brothel-reality corresponded to rape in the Asylum. People want to argue that a girl fantasizing about killing non-existent monsters while being destroyed is a good depiction of women? That four women either dying or losing their mind to escape that reality is somehow empowering? That it's a Victory?
 

SilkySm00th

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Oct 31, 2017
2,239
It never made sense to me that these girls are all in stripper outfits like... inside their own fantasies or whatever? Like even in their minds where they dream to escape the horrible reality they are trapped in they have to dress up like school girls and strippers and shit?? LoL
so fucking dumb.

Snyder should be making WildCATS movies or something like that. His whole aesthetic and style would fit perfectly with it and then he can make Zealot wear almost nothing and kick an alien through a window and call it empowering.

. I am suggesting that this is an effort by the director to portray feminism, rather than misogyny. In response people are posting costumes with less skin than a real-world school uniform.
What kinda school did you go to my guy, god damn!
 
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Addleburg

The Fallen
Nov 16, 2017
3,450
Yep. The only people you’ll find smearing him are people that have never met him and base their opinions on the fact that he made some comic movies they didn’t like. Everyone that knows him or has worked with him said his sets are the most positive, empowering and open they’ve ever worked on. Anyone who has an idea or suggestion or criticism is heard, usually enthusiastically so.
As someone who has met him a couple of times and attended a couple of his Q&A + Screenings, I've always felt that Zack Snyder is a super nice, hard working dude that makes generally poor films. Someone can be positive and empowering, but still weave themes into their story that are unintended or poorly realized.

I've only seen Sucker Punch once, and I'm definitely open to the idea that I missed his intent with that film. But I just wanted to chime in to say that someone "smearing" a filmmaker's films can be divorced from their feelings about him personally.

Even then, my understanding of the "sexy dancing" in the brothel-reality corresponded to rape in the Asylum. People want to argue that a girl fantasizing about killing non-existent monsters while being destroyed is a good depiction of women? That four women either dying or losing their mind to escape that reality is somehow empowering? That it's a Victory?
Some people still ascribe "strong, well written women" to women who are physically strong and kick ass and nothing more. Some of the same people who will shit on Brie Larson for her comments a while back will say they're not misogynistic since they love Sigourney and Linda from Aliens and Terminator, respectively. It's a very superficial and singular reading of strength, even as much as I do like those two characters.
 

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As someone who has met him a couple of times and attended a couple of his Q&A + Screenings, I've always felt that Zack Snyder is a super nice, hard working dude that makes generally poor films. Someone can be positive and empowering, but still weave themes into their story that are unintended or poorly realized.

I've only seen Sucker Punch once, and I'm definitely open to the idea that I missed his intent with that film. But I just wanted to chime in to say that someone "smearing" a filmmaker's films can be divorced from their feelings about him personally.
Sure they can.

Then you have this place, where someone recently said the only people who like his films are alt-right. Or that Snyder is a Nazi himself because of the way certain posters have interpreted parts of his films or taken his interest in The Fountainhead as an endorsement of Objectivism or Randian beliefs in general (despite most people claiming that having only encountered the concepts via playing Bioshock). People have taken their dislike of his films way, way too far and have created their own headcanon that's established him as second only to Trump in his deserving of scorn. Seriously, go read some of the threads. The only person who's gotten more threads dedicated to him is Donald Trump, and the level of vitriol in their respective threads is about the same. This place is suffering from full on Snyder Derangement Syndrome. Over comic book films.
 

gforguava

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Oct 25, 2017
3,014
Even then, my understanding of the "sexy dancing" in the brothel-reality corresponded to rape in the Asylum. People want to argue that a girl fantasizing about killing non-existent monsters while being destroyed is a good depiction of women? That four women either dying or losing their mind to escape that reality is somehow empowering? That it's a Victory?
Yeah, I mentioned earlier that in the OP's video there is a quote talking about how disappointed Snyder and Emily Browning were in how the theatrical cut doesn't frame Baby Doll's rape and lobotomy as her 'claiming her sexuality' and I'm like WTF?

This ties into what SilkySm00th posted as well about the women's fantasies involve them being strippers and then scantily clad knock-off anime figurines. The entire conception of the 'reality-->unreality-->even more unreality' just doesn't work and it works even less when you are trying to make a statement about female agency and empowerment.
 

Arkanim94

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Oct 27, 2017
11,114
Sure they can.

Then you have this place, where someone recently said the only people who like his films are alt-right. Or that Snyder is a Nazi himself because of the way certain posters have interpreted parts of his films or taken his interest in The Fountainhead as an endorsement of Objectivism or Randian beliefs in general (despite most people claiming that having only encountered the concepts via playing Bioshock). People have taken their dislike of his films way, way too far and have created their own headcanon that's established him as second only to Trump in his deserving of scorn. Seriously, go read some of the threads. The only person who's gotten more threads dedicated to him is Donald Trump, and the level of vitriol in their respective threads is about the same. This place is suffering from full on Snyder Derangement Syndrome. Over comic book films.
But Snyder is an outspoken objectivist wtf.
 

Kaswa101

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Oct 28, 2017
10,365
Sure they can.

Then you have this place, where someone recently said the only people who like his films are alt-right. Or that Snyder is a Nazi himself because of the way certain posters have interpreted parts of his films or taken his interest in The Fountainhead as an endorsement of Objectivism or Randian beliefs in general (despite most people claiming that having only encountered the concepts via playing Bioshock). People have taken their dislike of his films way, way too far and have created their own headcanon that's established him as second only to Trump in his deserving of scorn. Seriously, go read some of the threads. The only person who's gotten more threads dedicated to him is Donald Trump, and the level of vitriol in their respective threads is about the same. This place is suffering from full on Snyder Derangement Syndrome. Over comic book films.
Truth.
 

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Loud Wrong

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Feb 24, 2020
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I don't know about Sucker Punch being his most underrated movie, but it is certainly his lowest rated movie. Deservedly so. I thought this analysis was interesting most of the time, and off the mark sometimes, but that's how opinion pieces work. Thanks for linking it.
 

CloudWolf

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Oct 26, 2017
10,961
Snyder’s movies are pretty overwrought, not my favorite with how long stretches can be really low energy and boring in a bad way.

throwing that out there so I’m not accused of being a fanboy of his: some of you just refuse to engage with media outside of this bizarre nerd battle concept. To the point that people will just agree en mass that Lois Lane doesn’t do anything in these films, while praising the guy who added a Wonder Woman titty face plant to Justice League as the real feminist of the two.

Can’t we just watch the movies and talk about them for what they are instead of adding all this baggage to them that evolves on its own to the point where nobody’s even talking about the content of the films anymore?
What about this: Both Zack Snyder and Joss Whedon are bad feminists who fill their movies with problematic female characters and interactions with women. Whedon is definitely worse due to also being an abuser, but that doesn't excuse Snyder in any way for his treatment of Lois Lane and Martha Kent (and the women in his other films).

I'm not even sure why you brought up Whedon, because as far as I can see everyone here was talking about the content of Snyder's movies itself.
 

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What about this: Both Zack Snyder and Joss Whedon are bad feminists who fill their movies with problematic female characters and interactions with women. Whedon is definitely worse due to also being an abuser, but that doesn't excuse Snyder in any way for his treatment of Lois Lane and Martha Kent (and the women in his other films).

I'm not even sure why you brought up Whedon, because as far as I can see everyone here was talking about the content of Snyder's movies itself.
*watches video in OP about this issue from a woman’s point of view*

“No, it’s the women who are wrong.”
 

CloudWolf

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Oct 26, 2017
10,961
*watches video in OP about this issue from a woman’s point of view*

“No, it’s the women who are wrong.”
If we're going to play the "only women have the authority to say something about female representation in films"-card, I can link you to the Maggie Mae Fish video on this subject where she carefully analyses how Snyder's entire filmography is filled with sexist stereotypes and misogynist language and situations.

I mean, in the end art is subjective and if the portrayal of women in Zack Snyder's films work for you and are empowering to you, the more power to you, but don't act like the people calling out Snyder's films for sexism are inherently wrong.
 

SilentRob

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Oct 26, 2017
3,617
*watches video in OP about this issue from a woman’s point of view*

“No, it’s the women who are wrong.”
"The Women", lol. There is another video in this thread made by a woman who disagrees with the video in the OP. So are YOU now saying "Its the women who are wrong"? What a dismissive and shitty reply. A woman agreeing with you doesnt give you moral highground and you using her as a buffer to not actually have to engage with the criticism and arguments sucks.
 

gforguava

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Oct 25, 2017
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*watches video in OP about this issue from a woman’s point of view*

“No, it’s the women who are wrong.”
What horseshit is this? The creator of the video being a woman doesn't make her right by virtue of her being a woman.

This thread has actually been pretty on topic until you and a few others decided to circle the wagons in Snyder's honor, frankly you have actually said nothing about the topic at hand.
 

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"The Women", lol. There is another video in this thread made by a woman who disagrees with the video in the OP. So are YOU now saying "Its the women who are wrong"? What a dismissive and shity reply.
I’m saying I would say neither are right or wrong because their perspectives in this issue are more valid than mine would be.

I’m not claiming a high ground or grandstanding at all. I’m saying that I give far more credence to a woman’s perspective on this issue, positive or negative, than I do the opinions of the same men who invade every Snyder-related topic posted on the board to complain about his comic films and engage in character assassination because he made movies they didn’t like about a bunch of people running around in spandex.
 
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excelsiorlef

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Oct 25, 2017
55,635
I’m saying I would say neither are right or wrong because their perspectives in this issue are more valid than mine would be.

I’m not claiming a high ground or grandstanding at all. I’m saying that I give far more credence to a woman’s perspective on this issue, positive or negative, than I do the opinions of the same men who invade every Snyder-related topic posted on the board to complain about his comic films and engage in character assassination because he made movies they didn’t like about a bunch of people running around in spandex.

Cool I'm a woman

Zack Snyder doesn’t write good women characters


I have spoken for The Women you must stop now because you are talking over a woman
 

SilentRob

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Oct 26, 2017
3,617
I’m saying I would say neither are right or wrong because their perspectives in this issue are more valid than mine would be.

I’m not claiming a high ground or grandstanding at all. I’m saying that I give far more credence to a woman’s perspective on this issue, positive or negative, than I do the opinions of the same men who invade every Snyder-related topic posted on the board to complain about his comic films and engage in character assassination because he made movies they didn’t like about a bunch of people running around in spandex.
Really? Because I seem to remember that you came into this thread first starting some weird strawman argument against people who think Zack Snyder is an alt-righter when this had nothing to do with anything in this thread and who then dismissively replied this way to someone calling Sucker Punch misogyinistic:

Someone probably only saw the poster or trailer.
Seems to me like you have voiced an opinion on the matter. And it seems to be in disagreement with the other video posted in this thread. "It's the women who are wrong", huh? Big Oof!

Some of y'all seem to have build up so much frustration by this view that everyone who voices a dislike of Snyder OR his movies has to be part of the evil smear campaign, the cabal that secretly tries to paint him as a Neo-Nazi who hates women, that you can't do anything but immediately argue against that, even if the discussions you enter have NOTHING to do with this.

All you did so far in this thread is talk about what a great human being Zack Synder is, snipe at someone saying that they think Sucker Punch is a misogynist movie and THEN attack people for merely voicing an opinion, as "the women" - or, rather, the woman you agree with - have already decided the issue. While, of course, ALSO completely ignoring that you have no idea what gender people posting in this thread even are.
 

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"except the one thing that paint him as an obvious Objectivist Ofc"
I could point out all the Objectivist themes he injects in his movies, but I have the sneaky suspicion it would be useless.
Themes do not equal endorsement or belief in the views they're drawn from. You say he's an outspoken Objectivist, I say prove it. You say, "But but...the themes..." when clearly you have zero understanding beyond what Youtube has taught you about film criticism. Most filmmakers tend to explore themes they don't adhere to in reality, that's kind of part of the business.
 

onpoint

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Oct 26, 2017
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Woooo... this thread... I didn’t think I could find so many bad takes in one place, and about Sucker Punch of all things. That movie was so bad in so many ways and I’m floored this is the hill some people want to die on.
 

CloudWolf

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Oct 26, 2017
10,961
The positive Sucker Punch talk actually kind of reminds me of the dialogue about Showgirls, a movie that I love dearly. Only Showgirls actually is a satire (much like Verhoeven's follow-up film Starship Troopers) and does actually end with the woman taking full control and dunking on all of the men (and one woman) that harmed and abused her in the past.

I can kinda see how you can make similar arguments for Sucker Punch, but unlike Showgirls, the end of Sucker Punch is just dour and depressing as an empowerment fantasy.
 

Arkanim94

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Oct 27, 2017
11,114
Themes do not equal endorsement or belief in the views they're drawn from. You say he's an outspoken Objectivist, I say prove it. You say, "But but...the themes..." when clearly you have zero understanding beyond what Youtube has taught you about film criticism. Most filmmakers tend to explore themes they don't adhere to in reality, that's kind of part of the business.
Zaddy must really love to inject Objectivist and right wing libertarian themes that he doesn't personally follow in adaptations that sometimes are diametrically opposite on a political spectrum (watchmen) then.
I really wonder why...
Again, useless.
 
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mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
10,577
this thread is super weird.
Sucker Punch is somehow the height of feminism because it's not porn somehow.

The dude who spent years trying to make a movie adaptation of an Ayn Rank borefest is somehow not an hardcore Objectivist despite being the man behind Man of Steel and Batman V Superman.

We're only missing the weird take on how Snyder's Watchmen is somehow even better and to the point than the original comic and we'd have the ultimate thread.
 

spam musubi

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Oct 25, 2017
7,804
Anectodally speaking, don’t know a single woman who feels positively about Snyder films and the fan base online seems to be overwhelmingly male, even more so compared to other films in similar genres/themes. Wonder why.
 

Hasseigaku

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Oct 30, 2017
2,604
There is an community for minority views who enjoy Sucker Punch.
https://www.themarysue.com/revisiting-sucker-punch/
https://comicbookdebate.com/2018/04/02/a-love-letter-to-sucker-punch/

I hope people let spaces and conversations like these exist and don't completely "poo-poo" and respect the opinions of others when it comes to entertainment media.
I don't think anyone who doesn't like Sucker Punch in this thread has shut off discussion regarding its' relative merits.

Rather, someone came in here and IMMEDIATELY started shittalking about how people who think Snyder's work has any sexist elements is just making it up, and the predictable rebuttals and contra-examples that followed.
 

demonicmurry

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Oct 26, 2017
78
I don't think anyone who doesn't like Sucker Punch in this thread has shut off discussion regarding its' relative merits.

Rather, someone came in here and IMMEDIATELY started shittalking about how people who think Snyder's work has any sexist elements is just making it up, and the predictable rebuttals and contra-examples that followed.
Sure! I'm not a fan of his work and the ideological views that can be gleamed from his flicks. But the hate he gets both fair and unfairly on what is pure presumption of his views just for "ruining" their comic book movie feels really unwarranted to me. And I feel it usually degrades into just shut down arguments. It does seem like the majority of his online fanbase sucks from what I gathered. But I find the most ardent Internet fans pretty insufferable, in general.
 
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Ragnar

Member
Oct 28, 2017
829
Themes do not equal endorsement or belief in the views they're drawn from. You say he's an outspoken Objectivist, I say prove it. You say, "But but...the themes..." when clearly you have zero understanding beyond what Youtube has taught you about film criticism. Most filmmakers tend to explore themes they don't adhere to in reality, that's kind of part of the business.
Zaddy must really love to inject Objectivist and right wing libertarian themes that he doesn't personally follow in adaptations that sometimes are diametrically opposite on a political spectrum (watchmen) then.
I really wonder why...
Again, useless.
Thank you for pointing this out. Retaining fascist themes when making films based on comics created by fascists (Frank Miller) is something that I can possibly see someone defend.
But when you take Watchmen, written specifically from a perspective diametrically opposed to objectivism, conservatism, and fascism, and manage to inject your film version with objectivist, conservative, fascist themes then... I think that inversion is telling.
 

Cuburger

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Oct 28, 2017
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Find a source for him ruminating on him being outspoken about his Objectivist beliefs outside of saying he wanted to adapt The Fountainhead.

EDIT: here, I'll help you research a little more about his political views by pointing you toward this very forum.

This conservative article is absolutely livid over Zack Snyder's political tweet | ResetEra
Ever wonder WHY conservatives would feel betrayed that Zack Snyder would take a side that wasn't with them, citing his body of work?

The strongest claim that people defending Snyder's political views are that he is a "liberal", his views don't cleanly map with Objectivism, and that he isn't fully in line with her political views. The politics of his films though do have conservative themes, even when the source material does not, so that is why people see his interest in The Fountainhead as some sort of indication of his political stance because some of it does make some sense of his creative choices in his films. The reality is that he may not identify as a "conservative" but many conservatives these days don't either, for many different reasons.

Even if he is left leaning, he's likely a center-left liberal, but I think it's more likely he consider himself a libertarian. He strikes me like a Joe Rogan centrist/libertarian type where he may happen to fall on the left side on some issues, but many of his views on the world and how he believes things work have a conservative bent since we see it time and time again how he views the world through the characters across his whole filmography. And like many centrists, by picking and choosing what things they believe in, it may lead to inconsistency in their world view, but while it may be unfair to frame someone like Snyder or Rogan as "alt-right", it also is disingenuous to treat them as "progressive" when they may have some views that skew hard right just because they may not be far right on issues like sexism and race.

I think for Snyder specifically, the criticisms about the politics of his movies are especially valid since he makes mainstream movies and reaches a wide audience, so people defending his creative choices by the fact that he doesn't have a deep understanding of the themes he invokes, isn't really a solid defense, regardless of how true it may be, since he keeps getting a platform and people have been saying these criticisms about his work his entire career and yet he doesn't approach things with more care having realized he is messy with his execution if that is not what he intended to convey with his creative choices.

Is it any wonder that criticisms have gotten louder now that he's been making movies for almost 2 decades and hasn't taken the criticism to heart and has an even bigger platform than ever? Not to mention that having the position to be the creative lead of a cinematic universe meant that his influence could have been bigger and suddenly more DC fans were willing to handwave any criticisms while also staunchly defending his work because he was in the position to give them something they desperately wanted.

I say this as someone who liked Man of Steel and has generally been a fan of most of his films, outside of BvS (never saw Dawn of the Dead or Legend of the Guardians): the criticism of his writing and themes have a lot of validity to them and always have. He's a cool visual director, he seems like a good guy and even well-intended, but his lack of understanding of themes that he tries to deliberately invoke is baffling at times and to say that some of his messaging is at best muddled and at worse problematic is and has always been on the money imo. I think his Clark in MoS is a misread of the character in an attempt to make Superman cooler and more "realistic", and I completely get why it rubs people the wrong way enough to ruin the movie for them when his dad basically teaches Clark that altruism is naive and that people, including yourself, will always get hurt if you try to help others. I get why the execution of Sucker Punch in it's female empowerment themes are mixed and even disgust people in the discrepancy between it's text and it's subtext. What I don't get is people trying to say it all doesn't exist or even if it does, Snyder is too dense or surface level to even understand what he is invoking (despite being someone who obviously cares deeply about symbolism and metaphor) to even attempt to criticize him or his work for any unfortunate execution.
 
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Arkanim94

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Oct 27, 2017
11,114
The strongest claim that people defending Snyder's political views are that he is a "liberal", his views don't cleanly map with Objectivism, and that he isn't fully in line with her political views. The politics of his films though do have conservative themes, even when the source material does not, so that is why people see his interest in The Fountainhead as some sort of indication of his political stance because some of it does make some sense of his creative choices in his films. The reality is that he may not identify as a "conservative" but many conservatives these days don't either, for many different reasons
Objectivist/right wing libertarian pick and choose which social issue their are ok with however they're pleased.trying to depict someone who has an obvious adoration for the Us military, using it even as a representative of humanity in MoS, as someone even close to the left is lol worthy.
(not talking about you btw, just in general).
And Yes, Zaddy isn't a psychopathic paleo conservative so he enrages them, that doesn’t make him not a Objectivist :v.
 

Cuburger

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Oct 28, 2017
8,375
Thank you for pointing this out. Retaining fascist themes when making films based on comics created by fascists (Frank Miller) is something that I can possibly see someone defend.
But when you take Watchmen, written specifically from a perspective diametrically opposed to objectivism, conservatism, and fascism, and manage to inject your film version with objectivist, conservative, fascist themes then... I think that inversion is telling.
You can draw a throughline with what Alan Moore thinks about Steve Ditko's The Question (who was the objectivist/libertarian inspiration for Rorschach and who was one of the Charlton Comic characters that Moore originally planned to use because creating original characters for the story) and they way that Snyder portrays the character as flawed and extreme but morally correct. It's bizarre because I wouldn't say that Snyder completely whitewashes the character to remove all of Moore's commentary on the character, but there is a clear effort to soften the depiction of him (like many other characters in the movie) and to scrub some of the political context of the character in the graphic novel so he does get to become more of a martyr just trying to get out the truth by the end.
 

Chumunga64

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Jun 22, 2018
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Aside from Suckerpunch, which was a disaster, women in Snyder movies are pretty standard, I guess?

I don't remember them that much aside from Faora from Man of Steel (who was wonderful) but that's my expert analysis

Oh, and Lois being a dick ("on my planet, it's an S") which became a small meme in my circle of friends
 

JayCB

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Oct 25, 2017
6,286
Wales
Oh, and Lois being a dick ("on my planet, it's an S") which became a small meme in my circle of friends
Lois became a bit of a meme in my household too, but mainly due to how much my fiancee couldn't stand her in the movies. I heard her say "Oh fuck off" when she appears to stop the fighting in JL and it still makes me laugh (She like never swears so it surprised and buckled me). I don't think she could cope if Lois ended up becoming some important linchpin like Snyder had hoped with those bad scrapped JL2/3 ideas honestly, lol.
 

Alcoremortis

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Oct 25, 2017
1,019
He's got a generally nice visual style, but the stories and characterizations of his films are often a mess. Dude needs a script doctor to help knock things into shape and then I think we'd start seeing some really nice quality.
 

Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,498
Calling Snyder's film "entirely devoid of male gaze" when you have the oracle dance shots in slow mo as well as the queen bare chested in 300, Laurie naked in Watchmen (granted you also see blue dong) and the already featured costumes in SP.
Jesus.
 
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