Theory: Starfox Grand Prix never existed

[Skittzo]

Nintendo and Retro need to have a sit down because clearly something there is wrong, either in how Nintendo is managing them or how Retro goes about working.

5 years with not even a single game to show for it is unacceptable, if Star Fox Racing next existed than what on earth have they been doing for 5 years. Presumably Nintendo's been paying their salaries for 5 years.

Retro is a good developer obviously but only 5 games released in basically 20 years of operation is very poor.

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If SFGP never existed that doesn't mean they don't have a game nearing release. People need to stop making that weird leap.

Based on job listings, LinkedIn info and all of that we can guess they were working on at least two projects, one of which likely started some time in 2016. It's extremely possible that this project is done or close to done and will be releasing in 2019 or 2020. They can have a small team including QA working on that while they begin full development of MP4.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

If SFGP never existed that doesn't mean they don't have a game nearing release. People need to stop making that weird leap.

Based on job listings, LinkedIn info and all of that we can guess they were working on at least two projects, one of which likely started some time in 2016. It's extremely possible that this project is done or close to done and will be releasing in 2019 or 2020. They can have a small team including QA working on that while they begin full development of MP4.

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Where in the world do you get "2016" from.

They had a game cancelled probably in September 2017.

 

[Deleted member 37917]

If indeed Retro has nothing until MP4 (and I doubt it), it will be very fair to say that their output is underwhelming.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

If indeed Retro has nothing until MP4 (and I doubt it), it will be very fair to say that their output is underwhelming.

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I mean... Of course...

5 years of set on fire money is impossibly bad and one of the worst periods a developer would have ever gone through.

Maybe the worst.

 

[Mekanos]

I just wish all these people suddenly coming out and saying that it was fake all along did this a long, long time ago, rather than waiting nearly an entire year later.

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I learned from someone who has contacts with Retro Studios was fake a while ago but dismissed it because the insiders all seemed so sure. Now I know to take these "insiders" with a mountain of salt.

 

[fepeinado]

They can have a small team including QA working on that while they begin full development of MP4

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But is MP4 already in full development? If MP4 development has really been rebooted, wouldn't it be safe to assume everything was scrapped and they are beginning from zero?

[There were also news regarding a temporary "game tester" job listing at Retro some months ago, if I'm not mistaken (don't know if this was already shared in this thread) - if true, this would surely indicate something is being finalized.]

 

[Deleted member 37917]

I mean... Of course...

5 years of set on fire money is impossibly bad and one of the worst periods a developer would have ever gone through.

Maybe the worst.

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It may seem obvious to you, but I caught a lot shit for saying basically this last year about them.

I learned from someone who has contacts with Retro Studios was fake a while ago but dismissed it because the insiders all seemed so sure. Now I know to take these "insiders" with a mountain of salt.

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I haven't seen anyone here being sure about the game, except for some of the usual speculators from the Nintendo OT (RIP). At least, none of the "insiders". They some stuff wrong such as CoD or MPT, but on this, they've been pretty clean. Even Emily, who mentioned Retro at the end of 2018, wasn't specifically talking about starfox.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

But is MP4 already in full development? If MP4 development has really been rebooted, wouldn't it be safe to assume everything was scrapped and they are beginning from zero?

[There were also news regarding a temporary "game tester" job listing at Retro some months ago, if I'm not mistaken (don't know if this was already shared in this thread) - if true, this would surely indicate something is being finalized.]

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Some developers hire for testers years in advance so that they can make sure certain gameplay mechanics are fun and stuff.

But yes, this is literally the only positive sign in the "Retro releasing a game soon" camp.

 

[Skittzo]

Where in the world do you get "2016" from.

They had a game cancelled probably in September 2017.

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Dark Cloud put together a very convincing hypothetical timeline of events based on various hirings, departures and LinkedIn accounts. I'll see if I can find it.

But is MP4 already in full development? If MP4 development has really been rebooted, wouldn't it be safe to assume everything was scrapped and they are beginning from zero?

[There were also news regarding a temporary "game tester" job listing at Retro some months ago, if I'm not mistaken (don't know if this was already shared in this thread) - if true, this would surely indicate something is being finalized.]

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We don't really know to what extent they are rebooting, but I guess it's possible they went back to pre-production. I assume if the rumors of them pitching a demo to NCL are true then they probably have finished pre-production and are into full development but we really don't know at this point.

Either way they probably have enough manpower to finish up another title while putting more resources into MP4.

EDIT: Here-

Yeah I'm assuming the game that the former Retro employee is talking about was the late 2013 game Retro confirmed.

I say this because the Retro employee who still work at Retro has the following listed on his LinkedIn profile.

"
-DKCTF for Wii U
-Exploratory project (worked on for several years before moving on to next project)
-Current project (it's still a secret) "

Several years can be seen as close to 3 years. The former employee on Twitter said he left in August 2015 and Retro could only handle one game. I doubt the "current project" from the LinkedIn profile is the same game as the former Retro employee was talking about on his Twitter.

Former Retro Employee on Twitter- game he's talking about started late 2013 and probably had development issues or you'd think that game would be out by now

During his time or sometime after he left (former Retro employee on Twitter)- "current project (it's still a secret)" began. So this could be sometime late 2015 or early 2016 this second project began.

So, Jon Verrall, was a hired contractor and he was hired by Retro from August 2016 - June 2018. He was the writer for "unannounced AAA game" at Retro. I'm assuming they brought him in to do the writing for "current project (it's still a secret)" because it was far enough along and he was needed. Whatever this game is I believe is still going or nearly done by Retro.

Sorry, if what I wrote was confusing lol.

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Yeah this is kind of exciting lol.



I'm not sure if you're able to look at Jon Verralls LinkedIn profile. I know it's most up to date since he just started a new job this month.

Anyways that's besides the point. He has this on his profile.
"
Retro Studios
August 2016 - June 2018 1 year 11 months

-Lead writer for unannounced AAA game "

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Where are you getting the idea that a game was cancelled in 2017 from?

 

[Mekanos]

I haven't seen anyone here being sure about the game, except for some of the usual speculators from the Nintendo OT (RIP). At least, none of the "insiders". They some stuff wrong such as CoD or MPT, but on this, they've been pretty clean. Even Emily, who mentioned Retro at the end of 2018, wasn't specifically talking about starfox.

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I can't remember if it was here or other places, but I know there were a lot of people chatting about this racing game, especially in publications or whatnot. The fact that so many people in the beginning of this thread were sure the game was still happening means at least a few convincing people stood by it.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Dark Cloud put together a very convincing hypothetical timeline of events based on various hirings, departures and LinkedIn accounts. I'll see if I can find it.



We don't really know to what extent they are rebooting, but I guess it's possible they went back to pre-production. I assume if the rumors of them pitching a demo to NCL are true then they probably have finished pre-production and are into full development but we really don't know at this point.

Either way they probably have enough manpower to finish up another title while putting more resources into MP4.

EDIT: Here-




Where are you getting the idea that a game was cancelled in 2017 from?

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Their lead game designer and lead story person left at the same time for minor jobs at the same studio in September 2017.

 

[deep_dish]

2018 has completely laid waste to many of the supposed Nintendo "insiders"

I'm just really sad we won't get the amazing Corneria theme as a space-racer track theme. So perfect for it.

 

[ClickyCal']

Yea...I'm done with this thread and conversation in general...pure negativity.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

2018 has completely laid waste to many of the supposed Nintendo "insiders"

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Didn't King Zell leak everything from the last Direct and Emily leaked all of Nintendo's announcements this year.

Nate Drake and Eurogamer have had some... misses lately though.

 

[deep_dish]

Didn't King Zell leak everything from the last Direct and Emily leaked all of Nintendo's announcements this year.

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many != all

 

[Deleted member 37917]

I can't remember if it was here or other places, but I know there were a lot of people chatting about this racing game, especially in publications or whatnot. The fact that so many people in the beginning of this thread were sure the game was still happening means at least a few convincing people stood by it.

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Oh yes of course, many people ate crows on this; but from what I remember, not the usual insiders such as Nate, Zell or Emily. Even when hinting at it (Emily if I recall), they have always be very cautious. Unlike Liam Robertson who flat out lied about talking with Retro about it.

When it was first discussed I thought it was fake, but overtime, I ended up believing it as everyone and their mom seemed so convinced. I should have stick to my guns, as I usually do.

 

[Mekanos]

Oh yes of course, many people ate crows on this; but from what I remember, not the usual insiders such as Nate, Zell or Emily. Even when hinting at it (Emily if I recall), they have always be very cautious. Unlike Liam Robertson who flat out lied about talking with Retro about it.

When it was first discussed I thought it was fake, but overtime, I ended up believing it as everyone and their mom seemed so convinced. I should have stick to my guns, as I usually do.

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Wasn't Jason the original source? That was what gave it credibility to me (and he even came into this thread admitting that he doesn't know if it's true).

 

[Deleted member 37917]

Wasn't Jason the original source? That was what gave it credibility to me (and he even came into this thread admitting that he doesn't know if it's true).

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The first recorded hint was from Emily (she later confirmed referring to Starfox GP); she basically said something like "I don't know if you'll like it, it's an IP or a game style that could be divisive". From there, everyone and their dog started mentioning starfox GP and Jason said that he heard similar stuff. My memory is blurry, I was too busy saying that Starfox GP was a terrible idea at that time.

 

[Skittzo]

Their lead game designer and lead story person left at the same time for minor jobs at the same studio in September 2017.

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Who exactly were they? Jon Verall was the lead writer who left in late 2018, whom are you referring to?

If they cancelled a project in 2017 then what was Jon Verall working on between 2016 and 2018? His LinkedIn profile still says he was the lead writer for an unannounced AAA game in that period.

Wasn't Jason the original source? That was what gave it credibility to me (and he even came into this thread admitting that he doesn't know if it's true).

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The rumor originated with Vergeben, though Emily hinted at it just before Vergeben posted about it. Now knowing Vergeben's shaky track record it makes it a lot clearer how this could be wrong.

 

[Deleted member 37917]

The rumor originated with Vergeben, though Emily hinted at it just before Vergeben posted about it. Now knowing Vergeben's shaky track record it makes it a lot clearer how this could be wrong.

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If anything, Emily and other reliable people saying that they heard similar things gives credit to Vergeben on that one. Occasionally, he seems to be hearing the same things as others.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Who exactly were they? Jon Verall was the lead writer who left in late 2018, whom are you referring to?

If they cancelled a project in 2017 then what was Jon Verall working on between 2016 and 2018? His LinkedIn profile still says he was the lead writer for an unannounced AAA game in that period.



The rumor originated with Vergeben, though Emily hinted at it just before Vergeben posted about it. Now knowing Vergeben's shaky track record it makes it a lot clearer how this could be wrong.

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Mia Goodwin was the lead on the story and actually hired Jon Verrall to be their writer (since she knew him from a comic they had done together). Stephen Dupree was the lead game designer of Retro from late 2013 to September 2017. Both left (at the same time) for Playful Corp to make a small indie Metroid like VR game.

(I don't think the game looks very good but it only has three other people other than them working on it, they're probably hoping Microsoft buys the studio and lets them make Banjo 3 since the studio has some former people on DKC Returns).

I'm guessing from September 2017 to May 2018, Verrall was just working on some things for the project but that it was in dire straits with few developers working on it and it going through a major change that Stephen Dupree viewed as basically a cancellation.

With the game still not being out and the former head of the studio (Vince Joly) having just left the studio with the game still missing in action, it's hard to be very positive about how that game went.

 

[Skittzo]

Mia Goodwin was the lead on the story and actually hired Jon Verrall to be their writer (since she knew him from a comic they had done together). Stephen Dupree was the lead game designer of Retro from late 2013 to September 2017. Both left (at the same time) for Playful Corp to make a small indie Metroid like VR game.

(I don't think the game looks very good but it only has three other people other than them working on it, they're probably hoping Microsoft buys the studio and lets them make Banjo 3).

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Mia's LinkedIn looks like this:

Concept and Narrative Design Artist

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Company NameRetro Studios
Dates EmployedJul 2015 – Sep 2017
Employment Duration2 yrs 3 mos

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So I'm not sure if she was a lead on anything. Did you get that info from the credits of TF?

And Stephen Dupree could have left in the middle of a project, especially if he was the lead designer on their first project (2013-2015/2016) which was cancelled/shelved. It's possible they had a different lead on the new project and he was assisting until he left in 2017.

Jon Verall's LinkedIn profile talking about an unannounced AAA game doesn't make much sense if there wasn't a game for him to work on for the majority of his tenure there. Unless you're suggesting they cancelled a game in late 2017 and he continued working on a new game which was then cancelled in June 2018?

I think it's a mistake to read too much into these hirings and departures anyway. We don't know why people are hired or leave, we can only speculate about that.

LinkedIn profiles talking about unannounced AAA games on the other hand seem a bit more concrete.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Mia's LinkedIn looks like this:



So I'm not sure if she was a lead on anything. Did you get that info from the credits of TF?

And Stephen Dupree could have left in the middle of a project, especially if he was the lead designer on their first project (2013-2015/2016) which was cancelled/shelved. It's possible they had a different lead on the new project and he was assisting until he left in 2017.

Jon Verall's LinkedIn profile talking about an unannounced AAA game doesn't make much sense if there wasn't a game for him to work on for the majority of his tenure there. Unless you're suggesting they cancelled a game in late 2017 and he continued working on a new game which was then cancelled in June 2018?

I think it's a mistake to read too much into these hirings and departures anyway. We don't know why people are hired or leave, we can only speculate about that.

LinkedIn profiles talking about unannounced AAA games on the other hand seem a bit more concrete.

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Okay so.

Dupree (the #2 person in the entire studio) leaves September 2017.

Vince Joly (the #1 person in the entire studio) lists himself as no longer creative director of the studio March 2018.

Nintendo sets up a new creative lead team mid 2018 for Retro.

Retro still doesn't show anything at all of the game.

Those elements combined with "game is going good" are... not very reasonable to me.

 

[Dark Cloud]

Jon Verrall is who everyone should be listening. I don't care who left and came. He was a contracted writer by Retro. He worked there from 2016 to June 2018. It's on his LinkedIn profile that Retro has an unannounced AAA game.

This isn't a game. Jon updates his LinkedIn profile as he just did this past month with his new job.

Jon coming in 2016 as a writer lined up with one of Retro's employees saying he moved on to a new project several years later from his previous project. The previous project would be the game Retro started after DKCTF. "Several years later to do a new project" puts us at 2016.

Retro was making another game by 2016. Nobody is going to lie on their LinkedIn profile.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

Two of Retro's five games are 2D platformers though, which by no means should require such a long dev cycle (even 3 years is pushing it). And obviously I'm a DKC fan, but that's not an acceptable level of production.

Either Nintendo is managing them very poorly and not being clear in what they want or being over bearing or something or there is something really wrong with how the studio operates on their end.

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Well I mean 3 fully 3D Metroid games released between 2002 and 07 is pretty great

Only 2 side scrolling Donkey Kong games in 12 years is what's been bad

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Well technically, both DKCR and TF took about 2.5 years each. They were working on other stuff after corruption before Pacini and company left, and were working on MK7 a while after Returns. All of their shipped games have had an under 3 year development cycle.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Jon Verrall is who everyone should be listening. I don't care who left and came. He was a contracted writer by Retro. He worked there from 2016 to June 2018. It's on his LinkedIn profile that Retro has an unannounced AAA game.

This isn't a game. Jon updates his LinkedIn profile as he just did this past month with his new job.

Jon coming in 2016 as a writer lined up with one of Retro's employees saying he moved on to a new project several years later from his previous project. The previous project would be the game Retro started after DKCTF. "Several years later to do a new project" puts us at 2016.

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He could believe it's coming out

And that not be true.

 

[Dark Cloud]

He could believe it's coming out

And that not be true.

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Well that's what the big question is. Whatever he worked on is it still coming or not. Most of us are hoping it's yes and it'll be revealed at E3.

 

[Dark Cloud]

I know there's a lot of changing of the guards with western companies, but idk I always thought when people took the Director position at Retro they wouldn't leave. I felt like maybe being related to Nintendo brought something different.

It's not that way though. Every single director of all of Retro's games have left. Vince Joly was there for 14 years. He made his way all the up to director and left. I have a feeling he was directing Retro's new game after DKCTF and things did not go right with that game.

 

[SamAlbro]

Worrying about Retro is probably a bit premature at this point. If E3 comes and goes without an announcement, that's when it's time to worry.

 

[Skittzo]

Okay so.

Dupree (the #2 person in the entire studio) leaves September 2017.

Vince Joly (the #1 person in the entire studio) lists himself as no longer creative director of the studio March 2018.

Nintendo sets up a new creative lead team mid 2018 for Retro.

Retro still doesn't show anything at all of the game.

Those elements combined with "game is going good" are... not very reasonable to me.

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It's also important to note that the decision to give MP4 to Retro was probably made quite a while before they announced it. Maybe even mid-2018.

It seems possible to me that they have been close to finished with a project since the middle of last year. People don't have to remain in their leading roles for the entire development process. It's possible Joly oversaw most of the development of a game and decided to hand it off to a smaller team to finish up.

The point is, we have evidence that there is an unannounced AAA project that, at the very least, was being worked on some time between 2016 and 2018.

 

[Dark Cloud]

It's also important to note that the decision to give MP4 to Retro was probably made quite a while before they announced it. Maybe even mid-2018.

It seems possible to me that they have been close to finished with a project since the middle of last year. People don't have to remain in their leading roles for the entire development process. It's possible Joly oversaw most of the development of a game and decided to hand it off to a smaller team to finish up.

The point is, we have evidence that there is an unannounced AAA project that, at the very least, was being worked on some time between 2016 and 2018.

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It's Startropics.

 

[Skittzo]

It's Startropics.

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We should only be so lucky.

 

[Deleted member 37917]

Worrying about Retro is probably a bit premature at this point. If E3 comes and goes without an announcement, that's when it's time to worry.

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We can probably find someone saying the exact same sentence 1 year ago. In my view, there are legitimate reasons to be worried about Retro. That being said, Nintendo giving them MP4 alleviates somehow part of these reasons.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

Okay so.

Dupree (the #2 person in the entire studio) leaves September 2017.

Vince Joly (the #1 person in the entire studio) lists himself as no longer creative director of the studio March 2018.

Nintendo sets up a new creative lead team mid 2018 for Retro.

Retro still doesn't show anything at all of the game.

Those elements combined with "game is going good" are... not very reasonable to me.

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Wouldn't #1 be the president, Michael Kelbaugh?

But yes, losing Vince was probably big... I wonder why the last year there he worked as art director. Dupree though was only at Retro for a very short time though compared to others. The design team alone you have people like Russell O'heanley and Bill Vandervoort (sr designer and design director, respectively) who have both been there since about 2005. And then you have other artists, animators, and engineers who have been there since the MP1 days.

 

[Broken Joystick]

Man I'd love to hear what the working atmosphere has been like at Retro since their last release.

 

[Dark Cloud]

I found another Retro employee has on his LinkedIn profile "Currently working on: TBA". TBA = to be announced.

It's updated because they put they worked on Tropical Freeze.

 

[Skittzo]

I found another Retro employee has on his LinkedIn profile "Currently working on: TBA". TBA = to be announced.

It's updated because they put they worked on Tropical Freeze.

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Aha, if it's going to be announced then it can't possibly be cancelled! Checkmate!

(yes I know that's not how it works)

 

[Unbura]

Retro hiring a tester is literally the only sign I've seen in the last two years that they might have a game coming soon and that could still be for Prime 4.

Retro's top two people in the entire studio leaving was a very very bad sign that they have anything coming soon.

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i still wonder what they were really working on this entire time?
also wonder what happened to that ye olde Diddy Kong Racing 2 rumor? got debunked or did info stop coming?

 

[HumanRevolution]

Immediately thought this when I saw the Starlink DLC trailer. It's funny how much people bet on rumors, they are rumors after all.

 

[Dark Cloud]

Another reason I think Retro has a game is because Alexander Brandon is there. He's been doing music for like 20+ years and is a big name. He has his own business and is basically a freelancer.

Edit: I think he did leave and did some stuff with DKCTF Switch port and that's it.