Theory: Starfox Grand Prix never existed

[Skittzo]

A lot of people seem to be misreading the OP, I'm not saying anyone is confusing this particular Starlink racing footage for Starfox GP.

I'm saying it's possible that whoever started this Starfox GP rumor saw various bits of development footage of Starlink with Starfox in the footage. And possibly one of the first pieces of footage they saw was this racing mode, followed by other footage from the rest of the game.

The rest of the game includes space flight, combat, boss battles, missions, a hub, cutscenes with characters interacting, basically everything that has been rumored to be in Starfox GP. If someone got this leaked footage and the first thing they saw was this racing mode and then afterwards saw all of the other stuff, it's possible they mistook the entire game for a racing game that includes all of those other elements.

Ubisoft works on DLC years in advance of when it launches so racing DLC footage being leaked isn't that far fetched.

 

[Schreckweg 5000]

If they had development issues, I'd guess it's more about the Wii U to Switch transition. Maybe the game was too focused on WiiU's capabilities like, say, Star Fox Zero (oh the irony)?

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Yeah that was my guess the whole time aswell, that they were victims of the WiiU circumstance.

 

[Zedelima]

Exactly, with the crediting. If they were a support studio you'd think someone would have picked up on it by now.

What Jason Schrieier is saying here is super interesting, because it seems no-one can confirm if it's real, and the most valuable insiders he knows are now not confident it existed at all.

The other possibility is that it never existed, and Retro has indeed had a catastrophically messy five years of bleeding staff and failed projects and unfortunately will have nothing to show for it. Then they produced a Prime 4 demo which impressed Nintendo and, despite the studio's rocky few years, are now receiving intensive support to see Prime 4 through. Much in the same way that Retro's origins include a number of projects that were failing quality standards and had rough production (an early staff member would cite Raven Blade as playing like ass), which Nintendo had to overhaul to get them to focus exclusively on then Metroid Prime.

Maybe we've come full circle.
1998 - 2001: Several projects (sports, rpg, action), none of which of particularly good quality, messy production pipeline. Nintendo intervenes, buys more stock in the company, pushes for mass cancellations (eg: Raven Blade) and focuses development exclusively on Metroid Prime.
2001 - 2007: Decently smooth production sees the development of Metroid Prime 1, 2, and 3.
2008 - 2010: Major leaders leave to form Armature. At Nintendo's request Retro begin work on Donkey Kong Country Returns.
2011: Nintendo has issues with seeing through rapid production of Mario Kart 7. Retro steps in and assists with asset development and track design during the late stages of production.
2012 - 2014: Retro commence work and release Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze.
2014 - Present: Tanabe confirms in 2014 Retro had commenced work on a new project just before Tropical Freeze had been finished, but later states he does not know what they're working on. Metroid Prime 4 announced in 2017, being worked on by a new studio and not Retro. Nintendo announces in 2019 that Metroid Prime 4 rebooted and moved to Retro.

A five year game between February 2014 and February 2019 is nothing to scoff at. What the hell happened?

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Great post, and to me it still remains one question.
Why and how nintendo let retro reach this situation if everything is true?

 

[Soapbox Killer]

I think it exist but as a VR / Arcade / Super Nintendo World attraction. I dont think it was ever for Switch.

 

[ShinobiBk]

skittzo0413 not sure whether this factoid supports your argument or not but the Star Fox content in Starlink wasn't added until after E3 2017, where the game had been officially revealed.
So, development of Star Fox in Starlink definitely started after June 2017

 

[Deleted member 30151]

I'm still on "Team Real". Mario + Rabbids turned out true long after the "leaks", Mercury Steam working on a Metroid game turned out the real deal and a Links Awakening Remake, which was rumored long ago, turned out the be the real deal. Too many sources talked about this Starfox Grand Prix thing, it's too present to end up as a hoax or fake and becoming a myth.

 

[DiK4]

I think you're right. Now we gotta wonder what Retro has really been up to 5 years. Like you said it makes no sense for Nintendo to say oh yeah Star Fox racing in Star Link, cool while they are developing a game with literally the same idea.

And it doesn't make any sense for them to hand Prime 4 over to Retro to be rebooted if Retro has been struggling to make even 1 new game after 5 years.

Hopefully we see whatever it is they've been working on soon, otherwise none of this sounds very good for Prime 4.

 

[Plankton2]

Right now I still think theirs a chance for it to be real. It's pretty unprecedented to have multiple different reporters all be wrong. Like you generally verify your source before publishing anything, and it would be a big blow to credibility to say hey this random speculation is real.

One theory is that Ubisoft is Nintendo's most loyal western third party partner. That relationship is really really valuable to Nintendo to keep, so if Ubisoft needed Starlink to get more sales, they could've asked Nintendo what ideas can we do post launch or ask nintendo to hold off on any star fox announcement so they can recoup more slaes. And well if Nintendo is loaning out it's IP they can certainly comply with that knowing they will keep that relationship and get more support from Ubisoft.

Another is obviously it's a Retro game. They are generally revealed on E3. E3 is still significant to Nintendo, they've shown that with their marketing. So if it's coming it would be then.

But this whole thing is super fascinating...

From my understanding the only hard facts we know from interviews/Linkedin profiles

• Retro began working on their next game in early 2014
• Linkedin profiles say they started "exploratory work" on another game in mid 2016
• Writer for Retro finished his work on a project in 2018
• Retro pitches Prime 4 in summer 2018
• And former employee said they weren't a 2 game studio in 2015

 

[Skittzo]

skittzo0413 not sure whether this factoid supports your argument or not but the Star Fox content in Starlink wasn't added until after E3 2017, where the game had been officially revealed.
So, development of Star Fox in Starlink definitely started after June 2017

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Right, someone from Ubisoft confirmed that Nintendo requested several meetings with them and finally brought in Reggie to ask them about including Starfox in the game. And in the other thread I hypothesized that maybe someone at one of those meetings told his friend about this new game that they couldn't fully divulge the full details about (such as the developer) but said it has "Starfox and open world and bosses and cutscenes and even a racing mode", and this friend told another friend "oh man they're making a new Starfox with bosses and racing" and that eventually telephoned itself into "Starfox racing".

 

[louisacommie]

Maybe nothing bad happened at retro and they needed 5 years for an ambitious star tropics game

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

Is it weird that I thought the opposite?

The racing DLC seems like a teaser for Star Fox Grand Prix to whet appetities.

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This thought had crossed my mind as well. But I've always been 50/50 on this rumor to begin with, though now I'd say I'm closer to 25% team real 75% team fake due to Jason's post.

DKCR 3 with King K. Rool and Kremlings, let's go.

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F**k yeah! 2D or 3D I'll take it.

 

[Deleted member 8593]

A five year game between February 2014 and February 2019 is nothing to scoff at. What the hell happened?

Click to shrink...

Dark Cloud tried to piece it together. Basically: There's multiple Linkedin profiles suggesting that they had at least two different projects in the works since Tropical Freeze. The lead writer on an "unannounced AAA project" left in June 2018. Another profile names an "exploratory project" and something separate. Some project leads left in 2017 if I am not mistaken. Vince Joly (creative director on Tropical Freeze, recently listed as "art director" for almost a year) left last month, around the time they released the Metroid Prime 4 video.

I think it's safe to say that the first project that they worked on after Tropical Freeze is dead and that they started on something new sometime in late 2015 or early 2016. The big question is whether this project is actually being released. If it comes out later this year, that would give them ~3-4 years for an "AAA" project. Maybe they're tying up development while another smaller team works on MP4 pre-production.

I hope we find out soon.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

Do you guys remember this thread? None of this sounded like a Star Fox racing game.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/re...-building-and-non-linear-storytelling”.27883/

 

[Nevermeltice]

Something got lost in translation. It's actually called Star Fox's Grand Party.

Click to shrink...

The scream I let out. Good one.

 

[Fantastical]

If this is as at all true, it's a very generous interpretation.

 

[Plankton2]

If star fox is dead, then team 2 games is still alive!

 

[Nevermeltice]

Okay, I gotta say this is one of the most fascinating and mind-boggling situations I've ever seen. All the mystery is so riveting that a part of me doesn't ever want to know what really went on at Retro for all these years.

One thing that I haven't quite grasped is how they ended up being the developer in this rumor. Starlink has no connections to Retro whatsoever and there's nothing that really points to them working on SFGP, but maybe it's just that there are too many theories and the whole thing is convoluted.

 

[Nappuccino]

The question remains: what was Retro doing then?

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Waiting

 

[Megatron]

Or maybe Nintendo doesn't want to release information on it until this Starlink stuff is out so people don't confuse the two.

 

[Bass2448]

Somebody needs to put Retro back on the milk carton...

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Exactly, with the crediting. If they were a support studio you'd think someone would have picked up on it by now.

What Jason Schrieier is saying here is super interesting, because it seems no-one can confirm if it's real, and the most valuable insiders he knows are now not confident it existed at all.

The other possibility is that it never existed, and Retro has indeed had a catastrophically messy five years of bleeding staff and failed projects and unfortunately will have nothing to show for it. Then they produced a Prime 4 demo which impressed Nintendo and, despite the studio's rocky few years, are now receiving intensive support to see Prime 4 through. Much in the same way that Retro's origins include a number of projects that were failing quality standards and had rough production (an early staff member would cite Raven Blade as playing like ass), which Nintendo had to overhaul to get them to focus exclusively on then Metroid Prime.

Maybe we've come full circle.
1998 - 2001: Several projects (sports, rpg, action), none of which of particularly good quality, messy production pipeline. Nintendo intervenes, buys more stock in the company, pushes for mass cancellations (eg: Raven Blade) and focuses development exclusively on Metroid Prime.
2001 - 2007: Decently smooth production sees the development of Metroid Prime 1, 2, and 3.
2008 - 2010: Major leaders leave to form Armature. At Nintendo's request Retro begin work on Donkey Kong Country Returns.
2011: Nintendo has issues with seeing through rapid production of Mario Kart 7. Retro steps in and assists with asset development and track design during the late stages of production.
2012 - 2014: Retro commence work and release Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze.
2014 - Present: Tanabe confirms in 2014 Retro had commenced work on a new project just before Tropical Freeze had been finished, but later states he does not know what they're working on. Metroid Prime 4 announced in 2017, being worked on by a new studio and not Retro. Nintendo announces in 2019 that Metroid Prime 4 rebooted and moved to Retro.

A five year game between February 2014 and February 2019 is nothing to scoff at. What the hell happened?

Click to shrink...

So if Prime 4 doesnt work thats it for Retro?

 

[PadawanOfWindu]

Interesting theory. I'm just so desperate to know what Retro has been doing since late 2013 that it hurts.

 

[Peleo]

Is everyone prepared for the biggest post-E3 thread "RETRO'S NEW GAME REVEALED: IT'S FUCKING DONKEY KONG 3" ?

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

Any assumption that Retro has had a troubled development of an unknown project for the past 5 years would not correlate with Nintendo rushing to Retro to fix the problems with their troubled Metroid Prime 4 development.

I'm betting that Retro is nearing completion with whatever the project is, it will be revealed at E3, and will release this fall.

 

[Phendrift]

.
Thank you for this post!!!!! Maybe it'll stop some folks from foolishly believing everything they read from everyone claiming to have insider knowledge.

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I mean, the post you quoted is insider knowledge lol

 

[Skittzo]

Any assumption that Retro has had a troubled development of an unknown project for the past 5 years would not correlate with Nintendo rushing to Retro to fix the problems with their troubled Metroid Prime 4 development.

I'm betting that Retro is nearing completion with whatever the project is, it will be revealed at E3, and will release this fall.

Click to shrink...

I think this is very possible, and even likely if you go by the various job listings, departures and LinkedIn profiles and what not. The question is, what have they been working on if not Starfox?

I really hope we finally see something from them at E3.

 

[Deleted member 8593]

So if Prime 4 doesnt work thats it for Retro?

Click to shrink...

Nintendo hasn't really closed down studios in... ever? When NST completely shat the bed with Project HAMMER they were just delegated to Mario vs Donkey Kong for over a decade. I assume a similar fate is in the cards for Retro if they didn't finish anything since Tropical Freeze and they fuck up Metroid Prime 4.

 

[Atom Heart Mother]

Is everyone prepared for the biggest post-E3 thread "RETRO'S NEW GAME REVEALED: IT'S FUCKING DONKEY KONG 3" ?

Click to shrink...

I'd be over the moon if this was true. DKCR 3 would be awesome.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Is everyone prepared for the biggest post-E3 thread "RETRO'S NEW GAME REVEALED: IT'S FUCKING DONKEY KONG 3" ?

Click to shrink...

With their experience doing 2 of those games there is no way that making a third one would take them 5 years

 

[Mekanos]

Is everyone prepared for the biggest post-E3 thread "RETRO'S NEW GAME REVEALED: IT'S FUCKING DONKEY KONG 3" ?

Click to shrink...

You say this like this isn't the best outcome.

 

[Peleo]

With their experience doing 2 of those games there is no way that making a third one would take them 5 years

Click to shrink...

I think it fits the following timeline quite well:
2014-2016: Cancelled Project
2016-2019: Donkey Kong 3
2019-2022: Metroid Prime 4

Probably some overlap here and there as well as other asset/port/initial design work.

One thing that contradicts this notion is the job descriptions though, unless for some they expand the lore in D.K.

 

[Clov]

With their experience doing 2 of those games there is no way that making a third one would take them 5 years

Click to shrink...

Unless it's a 3D Donkey Kong game. Beaver Bother returns!

 

[AcademicSaucer]

I think it fits the following timeline quite well:
2014-2016: Cancelled Project
2016-2019: Donkey Kong 3
2019-2022: Metroid Prime 4

Probably some overlap here and there as well as other asset/port/initial design work.

One thing that contradicts this notion is the job descriptions though, unless for some they expand the lore in D.K.

Click to shrink...

going by those job descriptions they were clearly trying to do something really ambitious

 

[gogojira]

I mean, they were definitely working on something since 2015.

https://twitter.com/vonkoz/status/1088792920164052992?s=21

 

[Mekanos]

I think it fits the following timeline quite well:
2014-2016: Cancelled Project
2016-2019: Donkey Kong 3
2019-2022: Metroid Prime 4

Probably some overlap here and there as well as other asset/port/initial design work.

One thing that contradicts this notion is the job descriptions though, unless for some they expand the lore in D.K.

Click to shrink...

We're finally going to see the Great Ape War firsthand.

 

[Big One]

I think it exist but as a VR / Arcade / Super Nintendo World attraction. I dont think it was ever for Switch.

Click to shrink...

This is an interesting thought. What if that IS Star Fox Grand Prix? Seems like making it some type of VR/ride experience for Super Nintendo World would be a huge idea.

 

[denx]

What if Retro has been working on reviving their failed Raven Blade project. boy oh boy

 

[Richietto]

I'll be on the side of it not being a thing once E3 rolls around. If we don't see it there, or another Retro property, I have to believe they had to scrap whatever they were working on some time ago and Prime is their only project.

 

[Dark Cloud]

Dark Cloud tried to piece it together. Basically: There's multiple Linkedin profiles suggesting that they had at least two different projects in the works since Tropical Freeze. The lead writer on an "unannounced AAA project" left in June 2018. Another profile names an "exploratory project" and something separate. Some project leads left in 2017 if I am not mistaken. Vince Joly (creative director on Tropical Freeze, recently listed as "art director" for almost a year) left last month, around the time they released the Metroid Prime 4 video.

I think it's safe to say that the first project that they worked on after Tropical Freeze is dead and that they started on something new sometime in late 2015 or early 2016. The big question is whether this project is actually being released. If it comes out later this year, that would give them ~3-4 years for an "AAA" project. Maybe they're tying up development while another smaller team works on MP4 pre-production.

I hope we find out soon.

Click to shrink...

Yeah whatever Jon Varrell worked on is what we're praying is still alive. I imagine like you said Retro started a new project late/early 2015. Once they got what they wanted they looked to hire a writer and contracted him. He came, did his job and left in June 2018.

Now, unless some crazy horrible shit happened after he left, that game should be perfectly fine and release at some point.

 

[gogojira]

What if Retro has been working on reviving their failed Raven Blade project. boy oh boy

Click to shrink...

40 years from now someone will still walk this Earth asking for Raven Blade.

 

[Speely]

I've a few thoughts on this.

The question of "why give Prime 4 to Retro if they have been floundering in development hell, unable to produce a game in 5 years?" is the most important to me, and the one I framed my own theory around, because this question has to be answered, imo.

Now, game development is tricky, and projects can get scrapped or reworked for lots of reasons along the development pipeline. It happens to the best of em, but I am willing to believe that one of the projects Retro started on either faced some of these and/or they shifted development to another project with more promise that came along in 2015 or so...

Enter a new Star Fox game, what would come to be called "Star Fox: Grand Prix," by insiders, and eventually the rest of us. Now, Retro is among the HARDEST nuts to crack when it comes to getting info for leaks. This is a well-known thing. How did we even get the leaks we got about this game?

Ubisoft, among the easiest nuts to crack, knew about it, that's how. They knew because Starlink, and their new, hot relationship with Nintendo, put Star Fox in their game. Nintendo would have let them know about it because of the obvious affect each game would have on the other, and because it's the ethical thing to do.

But what they didn't tell them was everything about the game. Maybe something to the effect of "It's called Star Fox: Grand Prix (whether or not it was a working title) and it involves racing, and some shooting up stuff. Don't worry, we will release well after Starlink." Now, I am not sure how far along Starlink was at this point, but since Ubi prototyped the Kingdom Battle game to Miyamoto in like 2014, a relationship was already brewing between the Ubi and Ninty by the time the development of Retro's game even began development.

But why?

Well for Ubisoft, it's because better sales and greater mindshare on a new platform. For Nintendo, because Star Fox: Grand Prix is actually the big AAA game Retro was hiring for. It's not just a racer, but something that would need a good lead writer who, with others, could help produce "non-linear narratives." Something like a space adventure revolving around a free-wheeling(winging) race circuit and a cast of fun characters with intermingling stories.

Just spitballing there, but the point is, maybe Rare has been working on a big Star Fox game, and it is looking great. Stir the mindshare a bit with Starlink, and then release Starfox-based DLC with racing in it a couple months before E3 to really drive the point home.

Ok, diving into pure fanboy madness a bit here, but: Then Nintendo reveals a new Star Fox game in the E3 Direct. It looks awesome, and is bigger in scope than previously thought, perhaps even something requiring the better part of 5 years for a studio like Retro. The release date would be far off enough to give Starlink DLC sales a spike because now people are pumped about racing in their Star Fox.

What does this have to do with Metroid, though? Well, if Nintendo saw how well Retro was doing on a badass sci-fi, and the game looked good enough, one of them might ask, "Hey, weren't these the folks who developed the Prime games, which that other team is struggling with? This game looks great, and it's nearing completion. Maybe MP4 could be their next project. Right?" Obviously that is an oversimplification, but at some point something made Nintendo realize that Retro was the right studio for this, and I don't think it was "if they fail at this, we can make them develop DK games forever."

I think that thing is a new Star Fox game, whatever it's going to be called. I think it's possible that the leaks that maybe-kinda originated from Ubisoft were due to the limited info they had about the project, that info only being enough to know what it sort-of was. Then Ubi leaked like Ubi always leaks, and they would not have had anything to leak had it not been a game/IP adjacent to their own development of Starlink.

Whew.

 

[Vinnk]

Star Fox GP is the new Pokemon Stars.

A game many many leakers said was real.

I mean I hope I'm wrong but if it IS real it must be terrible. I feel if it were both real and good they would have shown something by now.

 

[Dark Cloud]

Also, in July 2016 one of Retro's employees moved up to "Narrative Design Assistant". I think someone made this topic on him on ERA. This became his new job description in July 2016 (one month before Jon Varrell came).

* Key team member for collaborative worldbuilding, story construction, and IP development.
* Point of contact for supplemental prose writing.
* Special focus on designer collaboration for player experience storytelling

Click to shrink...

Coincidence here. The story/narration and writing became a big deal for their development of this new game around July/August.

 

[Big One]

There's also the possibility that whatever Retro had planned for Star Fox Grand Prix might be reworked into Metroid Prime 4 somehow, especially if they were doing open space exploration similar to Starlink.

 

[Brazil]

I can think of few things that would make me more upset than finding out that Retro wasted the past five years.

 

[Strat]

My question is this - htf did Retro go from putting out a modern classic platformer like Tropical Freeze to 5 years of shitting the bed? I know even the best studios go through rough patches and setbacks, but 5 years? It's super upsetting to think the studio fell that hard.

 

[Toxi]

Star Fox GP can join the likes of Pokemon Stars and Metroid Prime at the Game Awards.

 

[Calamari41]

My question is this - htf did Retro go from putting out a modern classic platformer like Tropical Freeze to 5 years of shitting the bed? I know even the best studios go through rough patches and setbacks, but 5 years? It's super upsetting to think the studio fell that hard.

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Just because they haven't been working on Star Fox doesn't mean they haven't been working on anything.

 

[SamAlbro]

I think another issue with Retro being tied to Star Fox is that this would mean that they were developing a Star Fox game concurrently with Miyamoto's EPD.

 

[Strat]

Just because they haven't been working on Star Fox doesn't mean they haven't been working on anything.

Click to shrink...

I know and I hope it's not the case that their only thing going was that cancelled project. Jason's post also made it seem like the last few years have been tough at Retro.