This fetishized in-game ad from Cyberpunk 2077 raises some questions about how the game may depict LGBT (NSFW) [See Staff Post Before Posting]

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CassioAug

Banned
Mar 19, 2019
36
How about we get to an equal society first? Then we can discuss niceties. The currently oppressed are always going to have a negative opinion about oppressors. This isn't surprising, and them succumbing to decorum isn't going to get them equality any fucking faster. In fact history teaches us the opposite.
How about we ACT TOWARDS getting an equal society? Or do you think that it will fall from the sky one day to another, and just THEN we will decide that everyone deserves respect?
 

ravannis

Member
Jan 1, 2018
78
This is the very reason why companies like CDPR need to have really, really good communication and community managers.

Considering their past Twitter activity, my first reaction was a mix of disappointment and anger. Usually when something like this happens I sort of prepare for the worst.

I still hope that maybe, just maybe, this is not what I think it is. Mainly because my limited understanding of Cyberpunk tells me gender identification and everything related to it would be a great theme for a game like that.

I will wait for reviews and opinions on how they handle this before buying, that's for sure. :(
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,325
How about we ACT TWARDS getting an equal society? Or do you think that it will fall from the sky one day to another, and just THEN we will decide that everyone deserves respect?
History says acting towards getting an equal society would literally be the opposite of bowing to your oppressor with niceties.
 

Acido

Member
Oct 31, 2017
813
I love when cyberpunk games go against everything cyberpunk is about. Just call it futuristic and go.
 

kitchenmotors

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,420
Illinois
You're absolutely right. And I don't see how people think it's okay (or efficient) to fight discrimination with more discrimination. It's just stupid. If we want a equal society, respect and tolerance must be universal.
Calling out straight white males is not discrimination.

Man, some of you coming out of the woodwork with 32 posts is telling.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,072
Wolfenstein has swastika, are the devs glorifying Hitler? No!
Are those kind of ads realistic to appear in a cyberpunk setting? Yes! Why should we measure what's right or wrong in a dystopian future setting by today's standards? That's ridiculous in my eyes
But context matters. Wolfenstein displaying Nazi imagery is part and parcel of its narrative. For all we know, this advertisement is a nondescript (to them) part of the world CDPR is building and the importance of transhumanism in it... but therein lies the problem. One, CDPR has a history of being, at best, tone deaf when it comes to the LGBTQ+ community with the things it's done and at worst, willfully insensitive to a marginalized community. There are surely more effective ways to normalize/promote/tolerate trans people without an obscenely explicit advertisement with questionable and implicative taglines.

If they want to get the benefit of the doubt and have good intentions assigned to their creative decisions, they need to be more aware of how to portray things in a positive light instead of an exploitative one.
 

Icemonk191

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,269
ITT we bend over backwards and twist our brains into pretzels to explain why, actually you guys, this is a positive depiction, or an intentionally negative depiction meant to invoke in-universe distrust of marketing, or lol outrage culture, or I don't get it why is a woman with a huge dick next to the words "mix it up" problematic you guys I need you to explain this step by step, or what's wrong with my fetish.

We also say these things to the actual trans posters in this thread attempting to explain why they find this questionable, especially in light of CDPR's history with transphobia on social media.

We do this because we want to play the vidja.
Yep. Threads like these make it easy to see why the alt-right thrives in the gaming community.
 

Finalrush

Member
Dec 7, 2017
476
How about we ACT TWARDS getting an equal society? Or do you think that it will fall from the sky one day to another, and just THEN we will decide that everyone deserves respect?
The point is why should the oppressed have to act nice to their oppressors while being oppressed? That's what you're saying here -- that LGBT people should not call out the straight white community for oppressing them, because then we're not "equal". It makes no sense.
 

kitchenmotors

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,420
Illinois
Or they believe in it themselves


Step 1 is to stop tolerating Intolerance
Stonewall would’ve never happened if we just played nice and gave in to the bullshit from the gender norm community while hoping things get better.

I don’t expect straight people to understand the fight that the queer community has put itself through, but give us respect when we stand up against bigotry if you’re a so called ally.
 

SamWilson

Alt account
Banned
Mar 14, 2019
217
I didn't see it as fetishized at all.

I saw it as the drink corporation trying to promote their product with an over the top, out of touch, ad. Almost like a crazy ad in a GTA game.

But again, this is also a cyberpunk world, where people are free to basically have any body they want now. It's an accepted thing. But this energy drink company is trying to make it seem like a bad thjng.
 

CampFreddie

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,028
My post from the other Cyberpunk thread concerning the stereotyping of specific groups that I also think could apply to this:

My problem with the pre-release footage is that it’s hard to distinguish between the tones CDPR are trying to pull off. So when you start to see problematic shit, it’s difficult to parse through what they deem to be commentary on the Cyberpunk genre ( i.e. a look at social issues, others have mentioned themes like transhumanism) and what they deem to be edgy and cool. When this company is known for some other concerning things, it’s going to get increasingly muddy as to what they as creators are endorsing and what they are trying to say as criticism for the window dressing of this world.

For this instance, it’s really unclear what the context surrounding the ad is. Is it commentary on how mega corps would use the blurred lines of sexuality to sell products, using age old marketing of ‘sex sells’, or is merely just an ignorant joke? Hopefully the former but fearing the latter.
This is my feeling too. I can't tell if it's a cheap joke or a cyberpunk "plus ça change..." commentary on consumerism (i.e. We may accept genderfluidity in the future, but objectification and hypersexualisation will still be used to sell soft drinks).
I'm not going to judge until we see the final game, but it's certainly looking a bit suspect from the trailers and other footage so far.
I hope they try for a bit of nuance and don't just cram in a bunch of "badass" sterotypes.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,072
You're absolutely right. And I don't see how people think it's okay (or efficient) to fight discrimination with more discrimination. It's just stupid. If we want a equal society, respect and tolerance must be universal.
Let me know when straight white males stop being overly fragile and resisting tolerance of marginalized communities asking for basic decency, respect, humanization and representation that isn't objectifying and stereotypical.

This "woe is me" when it comes to people thinking that heterosexual white cis males are not respected or tolerated amazes me one could even have the audacity to espouse the ignorance of such a thing. But please, do tell us how the aforementioned group is discriminated against in any meaningful way that has real world implications.

Just another example of privilege. Some of you wouldn't last a day in a subjugated minority's shoes.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
This ad was in last years demo. Seems like it's of a sexual nature, given the one above it with "All Night Every Night".






 
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Kartul7

Banned
Dec 25, 2017
173
Oppression isn't always conscious or intentional. Being part of an hegemony means that you are part of the group that oppresses.
... I have no words. What a disgusting post.

This thread has taken a very nasty turn, it seems like. In hindsight, it is clear that the only people who should really chime in, are people who are being represented on that image, poorly/offensively or however else.
 

Robin

Restless Insomniac
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,024
What bothers me most about situations like this is how exhausting it is to be consistently told these things are "one bad actor". Somewhere in the thick of things there's a debate to be had about how responsible the entire body of a company is for shit like this, sure, but it surely does not start and end with one individual. This does not occur over and over again in a vacuum.

Also, it isn't exclusive to CD Projekt Red, this is the culture at large.
 

stupei

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,786
I'll include my post from the other thread:

Okay so if not for you, for the thread as a whole: the way you know this ad is a problem is by simply asking yourself what reaction you think the developers expected you to have when looking at it. Did they want you think, "Oh, what an extremely normal and common place image, there's nothing unusual about it, looking at it barely registers to me"?

Probably not.

So if we're honest with ourselves, their intent is to surprise you in some way. Almost certainly, anyone being honest, can admit that you're supposed to look at that ad and think it's edgy, unusual, or even weird. Now what about it makes it any of those things? What makes it surprising? What types of bodies are they demarcating as unusual and outside the norm, worthy of a reaction and surprise, and who do those bodies belong to? What associations are they creating between that image, the intended response to it, and real world people who the viewer might assume share traits with that image and their intended response to it?

At this point, honestly, it would probably be better if they were doing this deliberately and maliciously instead of creating media where they don't even fully understand the implications of what they're making when working in a genre that's supposed to be filled with meaning.
 

DealWithIt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
601
It sucks to be nervous about this stuff. I wish CDPR had a better track record. Because they have a shady track record, everything has to be examined closely, and there is a really good chance that they aren't gonna pass muster. There's no way I would pre order this game based on what I know now. At best, it's wait and see. At worst it's skip the game even if it's "good."
 

Finalrush

Member
Dec 7, 2017
476
And I never tolerated intolerance. And that's a big and dangerous assumption of yours since all I said is that everyone, regardless gender and color, deserves respect.
Let's just clarify that it wasn't an assumption but something you literally did, despite your words. If you think calling out intolerance from the straight white community is bad, you're tolerating intolerance. It's not that complicated. And I'm a white guy here, it's not like this is a direct attack on you.
 

ZeoVGM

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Oct 25, 2017
24,910
Providence / Boston

JKuch

Member
Oct 25, 2017
461
I don't trust CDPR in regard to representation of Trans characters (I don't trust most companies with that though), and some earlier cases in their PR have been pretty awful (Their tweets).

But we do only really have this image, and barely any in universe context for it, it could be not as bad as it looks (Although I'm not hopeful about that) when the game actually come out and we see what that ad is actually about.

So far though, yeah, I don't think this whole thing will pan out in a positive way, I'm expecting to come out disappointed...
 

Trago

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,195
This sort of thing happens with many groups of people. The problem is that there's a lack of empathy/understanding, so many concerns tend to fly over our heads if we don't know any better.
 

Enduin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,581
New York
I feel like this whole Transhumanism/extreme capitalism angle to the Cyberpunk setting people keep bringing up to justify the ad is a bit of a red herring, intentional or not. Even if a thing fits in completely within the setting and themes of that universe it doesn't just make it OK and at all worthwhile to pursue or include. We live in the real world where this kind of stuff actually matters and affects people on the daily and how media portrays people, especially minority and marginalized people, is important and does affect things. It's not really enough to just say "well in context/universe it makes sense." If the thing being done isn't actually exploring and commenting on real world issues and ideas in a meaningful and thoughtful way and instead it is just exploiting them for shock value or simply because it can be done I can't say I find that to be a very good excuse or concept to defend/protect.

Trans rights and acceptance is a serious struggle and issue in our real world that has real life and death implications for many many people. It's a bit problematic, to say the least, to conflate that real world issue to mostly fictional stuff like extreme body modification via cybernetic prosthesis and other tech as a kind of shock value "look at how radically different this world is to our world" kind of situation. Trans people, non-binary, gender fluid, etc exist in our world, they are not extreme foreign concepts that can only exist in your exotic and extreme fictional world. Using sexually provocative concepts and imagery isn't inherently problematic or bad in an attempt to create a commentary on real world cultural norms in comparison to a fictional one, but how it's handled and presented does matter.

If all there is to this ad is that corporations will exploit and capitalize on anything they can to make money and that fetishistic Trans portrayals are mainstream that isn't a great look. At all. Like that shit is not new or insightful in the least. It's a really sophomoric statement and concept that's been explored to death. Exponentially so if the ad is just there to make the world seem more edgy and extreme than our own because "dick girls" are normal or it's a drink that can give you a dick is marketable. All its achieving is the exploitation of an already exploited and marginalized group conflating exaggerations and fetishes of them as being extreme and edgy for the sake of the setting. If there's actual commentary on the ad itself in the game, what it's selling, who is selling it and what all that means for those people it's exploiting in doing so then it might actually be worth including. Might. But that's a pretty big expectation for what is most likely just one of many posters within the game that won't have any other depth to them beyond filling out the world and making it seem more edgy and extreme than our own.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,072
... I have no words. What a disgusting post.

This thread has taken a very nasty turn, it seems like. In hindsight, it is clear that the only people who should really chime in, are people who are being represented on that image, poorly/offensively or however else.
Nice generalization there buddy.
Sorry for being white?
Here we go. What's wrong with what he said, exactly?

He's not saying all heterosexual white males are bigots purposefully oppressing minority groups. At the same time, these responses show that what he posted isn't wrong and has a very real basis in reality.
 

Mib

Member
Nov 16, 2017
199
Calling out straight white males is not discrimination.

Man, some of you coming out of the woodwork with 32 posts is telling.
There's a difference between calling out a straight white male for their behavior and just talking down to them in general.

Being able to point towards one's own discrimination doesn't give someone a free pass. It's not an excuse.
 

HanzSnubSnub

Member
Oct 27, 2017
187
It's a fictional dystopian video game city based off of America... it's not supposed to be politically correct which is why I don't understand all this backlash
 

DealWithIt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
601
... I have no words. What a disgusting post.

This thread has taken a very nasty turn, it seems like. In hindsight, it is clear that the only people who should really chime in, are people who are being represented on that image, poorly/offensively or however else.
The post is actually run-of-the-mill critical theory on privilege, racism and other structural inequalities. You and I, white males don't have to actively hurt or hate anyone to benefit from the I'll effects of racism etc. We live in a world where our viewpoint is taken as "default." That comes with a variety of benefits. You have no choice to receive those benefits, just like marginalized people have no choice to reject the disadvantages they receive. This is all pretty basic.

If you don't like it dont play the game simple as that really.
It's not that simple, really. What's popular effects the world you live in. Abstention isn't a panacea.
 

joe1138

Member
Oct 28, 2017
289
This sort of thing happens with many groups of people. The problem is that there's a lack of empathy/understanding, so many concerns tend to fly over our heads if we don't know any better.
I feel like I'm in this boat. It took me a second to figure out what was going on in that image, at which point I brushed it off as being a little odd and out of place, not realizing how offensive such an image (especially given the context) is to some.
 

labx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,192
Medellín, Colombia
No way in hell that these sort of things are unintentional and based on ignorance about minorities. The guys on CDPR are doing these king of shit with purpose The same way depicting latinos in the demo.
 

CassioAug

Banned
Mar 19, 2019
36
stop putting words into other peoples mouth
But that's exactly what tons of users are doing with me, and you don't say a word.

Edit:

See... it barely took a minute.
Its just so hard to be white
I never said it was hard.

Nobody is going to defend your fragile ass.
And I'm not asking for it.

Amazingly, this thread isn't about you.
I know. I never said it was, and I don't know why you assume I ever thought it was.
 
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