This fetishized in-game ad from Cyberpunk 2077 raises some questions about how the game may depict LGBT (NSFW) [See Staff Post Before Posting]

Status
Not open for further replies.

AndyD

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,637
Nashville
Well, in my opinion, if I'm making a dystopian work of fiction I would look for current issues around the world and show an aggravated version of those issues. That would make the world feel more grounded and somehow more realistic.
This. They are seemingly trying to push the boundaries of various societal norms. It almost feels like somewhat of the basis of the world and puts exacerbated conflict more into frontview.
 

kaishek

Member
Oct 30, 2017
984
Texas
What is that referring to? Must have missed something.
Poland directly subsidizes CDPR as far as I know, which I have no problem with as a policy(I think nurturing infant industries like this is very smart economic policy) BUT the Polish government is in the hands of Catholic soft-authoritarian reactionaries.

Once again, fairly ignorant of CDPR's executive structure or what the terms of their government assistance is, but it doesn't help the overall image. EDIT: What I do know is that CDPR is a big element of Poland's "soft power" projection of its culture internationally, "hey look Poland is a real deal cutting edge country, invest in us" kinda thing.

I really am trying to give some benefit of the doubt because beneath the Witcher's whitewashed veneer was a damn good narrative and exploration of themes. It was, imo, sex positive, gender positive, class conscious, etc. But Cyberpunk is a whole other can of worms and despite knowing they should be careful...the marketing seems like it's just winging it. Cyberpunk is not just about being edgy and saying the bad words but with a punk aesthetic.
 

JaxiPup

Member
Dec 23, 2017
245
Massachusetts
God, reading an entire thread of people saying 'its okay to marginalize you because its cyberpunk' in a world where Red Strings Club and Hardcoded exist, hits right in the gut
 

aerozombie

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
978
There are voices in this thread explaining how this kind of fetishized representation is harmful. It being part of a genre that deals in those extremes does not make it free from critique or perpetuation of negative presentations and general bigotry. It doesn't help that the company has a spotty record here.

You cannot uncouple these things, and your attempts to position yourself as the intellectual one seeing the big picture while ignoring the voices just shows you up.
Stop evading questions and criticism, its dishonest. Stop trying to throw burdens at others, I fully believe you are capability of responding but want to throw it at everyone else.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,823
If you really want to go back to the source material, why don't we take a look at how transitioning is treated in it :



The source material is not where you want to be looking for defenses of this kind of representation.
Fucking bingo.

"It's okay it's cyberpunk" is not an answer.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,516
Just answer me one question: If a WW2 game had ad's in a Nazi Germany depicting Jews in the monstrous ways they actually were propagandized during the time period, would you take issue?
How about you answer me this instead: what is your goal with these posts? Do you want people to stop discussing things? No? Then why are you even posting this type of garbage? Grow up.

Is there any context behind the image?
Hard to say which is maybe why you shouldn't put stuff like this in throw-away early marketing material.
 

RCU005

Banned
Dec 8, 2017
300
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissive and inflammatory drive-by in a sensitive discussion.
Oh god, people get offended by EVERYTHING! and I mean every little, minuscule, senseless things!
 

OutofMana

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,510
California
Oof, that shit is in bad taste. Add the prior tweets from that dude that they fired and it’s kind of hard not to question their intention. Idk, man.
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,009
Well, I think we can at least assume there is going to be sexual content/sexual implants advertised in ads now, as opposed to this ad just being about juice or something and the person in it depicted as is for no apparent contextual reasons.

I had no idea about the Mr Studd or Midnight Lady sexual implants being Cyberpunk canon (until I was told a few posts ago).
The ad text highlights the drink having a combination of fifteen different flavors in one. It's a joke about mixing different things into one. And it illustrates that with a feminine form with a prominent penis.
 

EhieYovach

Member
Apr 3, 2018
722
I must be clueless here... and I have skimmed through the soon 20 pages, but what is the issue with a person with, what it looks like, a penis here? As in the person being trans?

Sorry if I offend anyone, I want to understand. Does it have to do with CDPR:s history?
CDPR has put out three transphobic tweets and followed them up with half-hearted apologies.
 

rfriar

Member
Mar 17, 2018
591
Do we have more context for the photo besides it being an ad in a dystopian cyberpunk future? The reaction here seems way overblown. I am part of the LGBT community and I am not ready to jump to any conclusions regarding the photo. This is a potentially hundred-hour+ long game and we're going to sit and nitpick one photo in a game with no idea how it fits into the entire world? At this point, it seems people are ready to throw pitchforks at CDPR. If you don't want to buy the game because of their previous behavior as a company, then sure, that is totally valid. This seems to be grasping for anything to hate them for though.
See, I think I’d agree. It seems as though there are some trans people who don’t have any issues with this. I think where I personally stop is when I look at their past history. I’ll see if any context is given, but this certainly doesn’t look good for them.

As a straight person, the black and white in this scenario vanishes when people like you and others, particularly other trans people, have no issue with it. At that point the discussion may change into a discussion within your own personal community instead of people like me and others defending you on presumption of offense. I, and many others, have no frame of reference.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,516
Oh god, people get offended by EVERYTHING! and I mean every little, minuscule, senseless things!
Yep, especially straight white dudes freaking the fuck out at the concept that maybe their ill-informed garbage opinion isn't the one and only truth in the universe. Seems like that concept is hitting them incredibly hard right now with many of them turning into literal neo-nazis as a result. It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic and predictable.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,455
Really? Bills are passed based of these statements? People die or get judged by "these" statements?
Your avatar is literally of a game that starts with one of multiple political assassinations during the direct aftermath of a war. And ends with the start of a new war between two countries which is partly caused because of the gap in power caused by those political assassinations. Use that thing inside your skull, a bill doesn't have to be passed for a work of fiction to make a statement.

Jesus, let's get outraged that a dystopian future is showing messed up ads. Let's bitcc and moan on social media until no company dares do anything outside of anyones comfort-zone. Sounds like a fun gaming future! /S

This place is a joke. Personally love the fucked up world they have shown so far. Game is still day zero as far as I'm concerned.
I applaud the effort to give your alt an avatar. 😁
 

Kinsei

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,108
Is this offensive because the bulge is clearly visible in a very sexual fashion, thus treating this trans person as a sexual object and treating their identity as a fetish? Am I on the right path? is this the case?
That's part of it, yes. Now of course there's the chance that the game addresses this, but given CDPR's past issues when it comes to trans issues a lot of us aren't willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
 

Astral/H3X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,100
This thread is helping me learn that I understand very little about trans issues or perspectives. I recognize that this poster is not being received well. Is there a post in this thread that explains why? Might be a good threadmark.

Is this offensive because the bulge is clearly visible in a very sexual fashion, thus treating this trans person as a sexual object and treating their identity as a fetish? Am I on the right path? I've heard people suggest that the text on the poster, and/or something related to body modifications in the cyberpunk world has something to do with the offensiveness - is this the case?

Sorry if these answers should be pretty obvious. Guess I'm recognizing that I'm pretty ignorant to what exactly is going on here, and I would like to eliminate that ignorance.

And if this question has already been answered, directling me towards it would be helpful. Maybe nice to threadmark idk
I suppose this is where I'm at. My thought is that it's showing that trans models are as "accepted" as cis models, but I suppose I need to ask the question: if the rest of the game is positive towards trans issues and identities, does this create a context where the message is not of fetishization, but of normalization? I suppose I'm asking, *can* this poster be a part of a larger component of normalization, but the context of CDPR's history paints it as fetishization? Is it currently "either fetishization, OR normalization, but CDPR'S record makes us feel fetishization is more likely?"
 

Doof

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,779
Kentucky
y'all stupid motherfuckers keep feeding yourselves into the woodchipper, now
it sustains me

If you really want to go back to the source material, why don't we take a look at how transitioning is treated in it :



The source material is not where you want to be looking for defenses of this kind of representation.
i have no words
 

Tayaya

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
239
User Banned (2 weeks): Reinforcing harmful stereotypes and transphobic rhetoric
At the risk of taking a hit from the banhammer, can I ask a question about why this ad would be a problem? There is a whole subculture surrounding "chicks with dicks" that's been around for far longer than the current state of affairs regarding what medical sciene has enabled those who truly want or need to change their gender are able to accomplish. Events like Drag Queen Bingo nights are popular all over the US, Thailand has a whole sex trade based on attractive women who happen to be hung, and yes it's clearly a fetish but one that's enjoyed by people of all genders that I know of. Conversely, it offends people of all genders/orientations too - not everyone is into everything.

I saw the topic and clicked preparing to be offended, but I found the ad chuckle-worthy and in good taste. It doesn't mean I am downplaying the struggle that LBGT people face at all. I can respect their plight and still find humor in an ad like this. Not everything warrants a crusade. At this point it feels like everyone is combing over Cyberpunk 2077 to try and scrub it and shape it into their idea of what's "right." But it's a piece of art - we don't get to assume creative control over it, and something as simple as a poster in the background really isn't an attack on anyone's beliefs in this case. Mix it up, as the poster says! Have some fun!
 

aerozombie

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
978
This is a thread about a throwaway "oh look a chick with a dick" advert in Cyberpunk 2077, with the words "Mix It Up!" and "Chromanticore".

In what way is that question relevant? There is no real comparison for a Cyberpunk world, so when all you're relying on is "the world is shitty" but then you're selective over what parts are actually shitty – because there's certainly not everything that's shitty IRL in the game – then it's perfectly fine to question where that line is drawn.
Yes there is, because it is world building. In Nazi Germany you would expect those posters randomly around a city, in a Cyberpunk you would expect extremes of fetishization shown in advertisements. This should be offensive and it makes sense why in the context of a cyberpunk world and the themes you would expect from the genre.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
The ad text highlights the drink having a combination of fifteen different flavors in one. It's a joke about mixing different things into one. And it illustrates that with a feminine form with a prominent penis.
Not sure if that would be a joke in this world though, or simply reality that people are modifying their bodies with implants/stimulants and engaging in open sexuality.

As in joke with an intent to be derogatory, as opposed to trying to celebrate how accepted sexuality is in the mainstream in some sort of fun way.
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,965
UK
Yes there is, because it is world building. In Nazi Germany you would expect those posters randomly around a city, in a Cyberpunk you would expect extremes of fetishization shown in advertisements. This should be offensive and it makes sense why in the context of a cyberpunk world and the themes you would expect from the genre.
So where do you draw the line in how offensive this can be and to whom, and why do you draw it there?
 

Uthred

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,888
It's very hard to believe anyone at this point in the thread who is "just asking how its offence" is asking in good faith. Its been explained so many times at this point.

The source material is not where you want to be looking for defenses of this kind of representation.
Cyber psychosis was always sort of creepy and poorly written, but a) people always leave out the fact that the core book has rules for how to treat and avoid it entirely, in short if you get counselling after major cybernetic augmentation you adjust just fine and b) do you have a source for that quote because while sadly the Cyberpunk 2020 PDF isnt searchable there's nothing showing up on a quick scan of the cybernetics and body modification section. I actually dont recall the core book having anything about transitioning in it.
 
Last edited:

Stryder

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
966
US
With their track record regarding trans people, I'm not holding my breath tbh.

This sort of response is fair and understandable for exactly what you said, but we should still look for any comments made by CDpr in reference to this image. Don't think it would be the right call to stay silent. Wonder if they'll pull a hideo kojima and say something about "words and deeds".
 

sahfarry

Member
Jan 16, 2019
181
That's part of it, yes. Now of course there's the chance that the game addresses this, but given CDPR's past issues when it comes to trans issues a lot of us aren't willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Ah I see. Do you suppose this poster wouldn't be as much of an issue as it is now, if CDPR hadnt already expressed transphobic views in the past?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,516
At the risk of taking a hit from the banhammer, can I ask a question about why this ad would be a problem? There is a whole subculture surrounding "chicks with dicks" that's been around for far longer than the current state of affairs regarding what medical sciene has enabled those who truly want or need to change their gender are able to accomplish. Events like Drag Queen Bingo nights are popular all over the US, Thailand has a whole sex trade based on attractive women who happen to be hung, and yes it's clearly a fetish but one that's enjoyed by people of all genders that I know of. Conversely, it offends people of all genders/orientations too - not everyone is into everything.

I saw the topic and clicked preparing to be offended, but I found the ad chuckle-worthy and in good taste. It doesn't mean I am downplaying the struggle that LBGT people face at all. I can respect their plight and still find humor in an ad like this. Not everything warrants a crusade. At this point it feels like everyone is combing over Cyberpunk 2077 to try and scrub it and shape it into their idea of what's "right." But it's a piece of art - we don't get to assume creative control over it, and something as simple as a poster in the background really isn't an attack on anyone's beliefs in this case. Mix it up, as the poster says! Have some fun!
Yes folks, have some fun! Meanwhile the general state of society is that trans people have to fear for their lives on the daily but hey at least meanwhile dickchick fetishists are having a good time amirite. Priorities exist. We can celebrate sexual diversity when people aren't being murdered over who they are.
 

Kinsei

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,108
Ah I see. Do you suppose this poster wouldn't be as much of an issue as it is now, if CDPR hadnt already expressed transphobic views in the past?
There would of course still be the worry that it wouldn't be handled well, but I imagine a lot more of us would be taking the wait and see approach instead fo assuming the worst if it weren't for CDPR's past.
 

MechaBreaker

Member
Jun 26, 2018
1,388
This sort of response is fair and understandable for exactly what you said, but we should still look for any comments made by CDpr in reference to this image. Don't think it would be the right call to stay silent. Wonder if they'll pull a hideo kojima and say something about "words and deeds".
This is what they said last time they got caught mocking trans people:


Complete trash non-statement from them.
 

btags

Member
Oct 26, 2017
477
Rochester NY
If you really want to go back to the source material, why don't we take a look at how transitioning is treated in it :



The source material is not where you want to be looking for defenses of this kind of representation.
Having never played the tabletop game or even hearing about it before this video game, it seems like it already has some problematic themes that should be discussed when talking about this game and how it is adapted from the source material. I mean, wow, that seems pretty blatantly transphobic.
 

teague

Member
Dec 17, 2018
529
[...] There is a whole subculture surrounding "chicks with dicks" that's been around for far longer than the current state of affairs regarding what medical sciene has enabled those who truly want or need to change their gender are able to accomplish. Events like Drag Queen Bingo nights are popular all over the US, Thailand has a whole sex trade based on attractive women who happen to be hung, and yes it's clearly a fetish but one that's enjoyed by people of all genders that I know of. Conversely, it offends people of all genders/orientations too - not everyone is into everything.
Referencing a history of problematic fetishization isn't a good way to defend something people are accusing something of being a problematic fetishization (the whole history of this "fetish" is problematic and othering). "Fetishization" here doesn't just mean "something that turns people on," it's about the reduction of an already-marginalized group to the status of (sex) object. People's identities do not exist just to be someone else's (typically straight cis white men's) fetishes.

(I edited this to be less mean)
 

labx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,079
Medellín, Colombia
A lot of white straight dudes here trying too hard to justify the purchase of a game that is clearly out of touch with minorities. What a way to resolve their cognitive dissonance. "It's there only if you want to be there" "There is nothing wrong" "Its interpretation".

Guys the game is out of touch, it may be a cool game to play, an immersive world, an so on... but it has a lot of cultural and social issues addressed in the worst posible way.
 

aerozombie

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
978
How about you answer me this instead: what is your goal with these posts? Do you want people to stop discussing things? No? Then why are you even posting this type of garbage? Grow up.
To say that it is SUPPOSE to be offensive as that is the context of a cyberpunk world. Discuss it as problematic in the terms of the real world, but not in the context that a game should change itself from treading on that territory. Most things that happen in a cyberpunk world should offend you, and taking shots at the developer over it is idiotic. The conversation should be how it reflects on the real world, not the game. You probably grew up where a lot of themes in a cyberpunk world revolved around mobs and violence where most would shrug it off or call it cool, but now you are facing a cyberpunk world that has themes that are sensitive to you.
 

mikeys_legendary

The Fallen
Sep 26, 2018
1,134
Not a good look at all considering their history.

I was on the fence about picking this up day 1, but I may have to skip it, or buy used. It all depends on what I hear about the game when it launches.
 

uzipukki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,827
This sort of response is fair and understandable for exactly what you said, but we should still look for any comments made by CDpr in reference to this image. Don't think it would be the right call to stay silent. Wonder if they'll pull a hideo kojima and say something about "words and deeds".
Like I said, theres always a chance that trans issues will be handled well in the game, but with their track record the chances are incredibly slim.. And even if people pointing this out to them gets them to issue a statement, it will be the usual "sorry you're offended" bullshit like they did the last time.
 

Razmos

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,685
As a white straight men, you'll be:

1) discriminated by your skin color?
2) discriminated by your gender?
3) discriminated by your sexual orientation

The answer is no (anectodes don't count, we are talking as a society, work, politics, etc).


We are not equal nowadays as much as you want to say it, we should, but still in 2019 black people face more racism than white people, women face more sexism than men, and heterophobia pretty much doesn't exist. You can't just say we are equal and leave it at it when the reality of this world is that we are not. This is having privilege, and WE white straight men in this current world are privileged.

If you really want this world to be equal, don't waste even 1 sec to deny the truth (our current privilege), and work to help and support others that are discriminated just for who they are.
This is a great post
 

Kyuuji

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,965
UK
To say that it is SUPPOSE to be offensive as that is the context of a cyberpunk world. Discuss it as problematic in the terms of the real world, but not in the context that a game should change itself from treading on that territory. Most things that happen in a cyberpunk world should offend you, and taking shots at the developer over it is idiotic. The conversation should be how it reflects on the real world, not the game. You probably grew up where a lot of themes in a cyberpunk world revolved around mobs and violence where most would shrug it off or call it cool, but now you are facing a cyberpunk world that has themes that are sensitive to you.
I mean, come on.. "but it's supposed to be offensive" – you surely can't be an adult, right?
 

JaxiPup

Member
Dec 23, 2017
245
Massachusetts
Trans voice here, not saying I represent everyone but its worth noting.

My issue with this portrayal directly is the blatant fetishization of genitalia. It's a key centerpiece of the advertisement, framed as if to say 'look here'.

Trans folk to a lot to avoid being defined by our genitalia. We'll see 'genitalia preference' debates on facebook and cringe, as cis folks will go to great lengths to avoid outting themselves as transphobes but claim they wouldn't date one.

To boil a person down to their genitals goes against everything we fight for. We fight to make people understand our identities go beyond physical characteristics.

There is potential for trans body positivity. I've seen girls proudly exclaim that they're rocking a bulge. But this doesn't come from a place of positivity. It's blatant sexualization, and even potentially mockingly so
 

AB (^_^)

Banned
Dec 8, 2018
50
User banned (permanent): transphobia (referring to trans women as "men")

Note the crotch of the person in the enlarged image.

This is really yikes. It might not be so bad when divorced from context of the company's issues with transphobia, but even then it's disheartening to see. It reeks of fetishism. :/

Image in question:

OK, I'll be the first to say that I do not know everything about genders, but based on the premise of the game, the message that I see here is how far humanity can go to alter their nature. Its more of an exageration of today's culture.

Today people who want to change their sex or gender goes great lengths to do so. Men have to go surgeries and after that they have to stay on medications if they want to stay on a female gender.

The way I see it is that the in game ad as an exageration of today's culture.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.