This fetishized in-game ad from Cyberpunk 2077 raises some questions about how the game may depict LGBT (NSFW) [See Staff Post Before Posting]

[Tregard]

Because it's not just representation. It's fetishized representation. The penis is there to inform you that the girl is trans, but also to make you feel like she's sexy because of it. Like an exciting thing to be stared at.

A good parallel would be the fetishization of black men and their penis' sizes. Some are not offended, but even if you are a black guy with a big penis, this kind of treatment dehumanizes you and continues to objectify not only the ones who are not offended. Remember: not every person wants to be considered a sexual object, especially when this also comes with inherent dehumanization and violence. Trans people are the same: transgender pornography is not good representation. Showing trans women as sexy girls with dicks is not good representation.

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Thanks for this, helps me see this from a difference perspective. In this case, would the advert in question not be a problem if there are more trans people in the game who are not sexualised? (Given that we can then assume the model in the advertisement is willingly being sexualised)

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Saw this on Twitter yesterday. Fuck CDPR. I had zero faith in this game to begin with and now I have less.

 

[Hinya]

I know you're banned now but thanks for your input, privileged straight guy.

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Wait, why should the guy be banned for? Is he not allowed to think that the LGBTQ+ community is a tad too sensitive?

 

[Crumpo]

Gamers right now:

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lol nope. It's as inclusive as a billboard of a Mexican hopping over the border to have a sleep on our new DreamEZ bed range.

 

[Menelaus]

Also it is totally fetishitised. I'm just fine with big dick chicks being fetishitised.

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A quick glance at just about any tube site reinforces this. There's been a huge increase of that kind of fetishization in the last few years, almost to the point of normalization I'd argue. In THAT context, this ad is totally on-point.

 

[The Curry Witch]

Like I said in the other thread, this might be transphobic or not. I might actually okay with it being transphobic - and I hate transphobic people.

Because I've worked in the advertising industry before and I would think that in an ad-infested cyber-dystopia brands could very much become absolutely fucking tone-deaf like. And I'd like to see this fucking bullshit be represented in the game. I'd like to see ads in the game and think: Well this brand sucks.

The devs might actually have put an ad in the game that they themselves think is bad. OR you know... this ad might be there for edginess and because the devs thought it was funny... which would be.. bad? Without context, this doesn't tell us much. I need to see the final game. But I think it's great that we can have these kinds of discussions regardless.

 

[Deleted member 925]

Gamers right now:

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This is the hill you want to die on?

 

[Mastersmith98]

You know...

Context

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You mean like the rest of that thread?

Jesus, your hate boners are more obvious than the one in the ad.

 

[egg]

People tend to be sensitive when they're oppressed and their existence is made into a punchline, yes.

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I'm black and gay, i know how it is. I'm not saying people aren't allowed to be sensitive or take something personally, especially if it relates to their existence. Im just saying the possibility of over reaction exists. I dont mean in this situation necessarily, im speaking in general.

 

[mescalineeyes]

Wait, why should the guy be banned for? Is he not allowed to think that the LGBTQ+ community is a tad too sensitive?

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no he is not

 

[Deleted member 925]

Leave it to straight males to decide what is sensitive for others.

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So fucking true.

You spilled the tea. I'm tired of straight males tbh.

 

[mutantmagnet]

I firmly disagree this was fetishization. At worst I would view this as trans-exploitation. CDPR were upfront last year that they would display bodies in many different ways beyond what is socially acceptable now. You can't pretend that disclosure didn't happen.


I feel because they had this goal in mind, their representation of transwomen, as if they are socially acceptable to the point that they are depicted in advertising, feels juvenile and exploitative; because until they were given the cyberpunk material to work with they didn't have to think too much about it like most people in 2019.


My point is if you asked professional advertisers today to depict transwomen as vehicles to promote products in 2019 most would come up with depictions like this.

 

[Designer_Fake]

How is a trans person being sexualized in an ad different to any other person?

 

[Bleu]

someone should fire the marketing team for the ads to the left and right then. clearly they didn't get the message.

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I don't really get/see the ad on the right, but the one on the left seems in line with the spirit, so i don't get your point.
"Feel the chemistry", get high, drug yourself out of your goddamn mind with our product.
It's as unacceptable to us as the one in the middle, but in a cyberpunk universe, crank things to 11, give no care to any moral shit, allow everything and profit from it and there you go. it's totally cyberpunk. in context

 

[Kemono]

Yeah this is disgusting, but also perfectly in line with what CDPR has done in the past (such as taking forever to fire the clearly transphobic twitter guy).
I know some people will be like "BUT IT'S EMPOWERING TO HAVE A MASSIVE PENIS IN AN ADVERT", but consider this:
I guarantee you that there will be no billboards with cis dudes and giant penises. Or even small ones for that matter.
In some ways, this is a queer extension of problems that women in general face in media: That people feel the need to sexualise them constantly. This advert is a transphobic extension of this mindset, that decides that trans women are not first and foremost people, but rather penises with women attached: a fetish to cater to.
I'm all for body positivity, this is absolutely not that.

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Isn't this a "clever" and fast way to market an ingame-drink that let you change your gender? Other rpgs let you change your skills/etc. with a specific potion.

 

[Dyno]

Wait, why should the guy be banned for? Is he not allowed to think that the LGBTQ+ community is a tad too sensitive?

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This is sarcasm right?

 

[Nameless]

I've tried to read through the Tweets and this thread regarding the context to this, and I see a lot of people taking this ad as a joke, which tonally doesn't seem to mesh with anything else? Have we seen any other in-game ads besides the three in that image? Because tonally, hypersexualisation for an energy drink makes sense, but obviously that falls apart if this is the only advert in-game that's like this.

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This is sorta where I'm at. In a world where gender fluidity is the norm but a shitty "sex sells" mentality still drives corporate marketing, you'd expect to see more archetypes than your typical Hot-Big-Tittied cis woman being sexualized to peddle dumb consumer products like energy drinks.

My initial reading is that this isn't parody or mockery like GTA, but that's not to say CDPR can't still bungle the execution even if the intent isn't necessarily malicious. Like I said before, I'll defer to the Trans community on the latter, but definitely want to see more of how the world handles these concepts.

 

[Hinya]

no he is not

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Why is that? It's not like he's going ''Man LGTQ ''people'' should die'' or some shit.

 

[Alucrid]

I don't really get/see the ad on the right, but the one on the left seems in line with the spirit, so i don't get your point.
"Feel the chemistry", get high, drug yourself out of your goddamn mind with our product.
It's as unacceptable to us as the one in the middle, but in a cyberpunk universe, crank things to 11, give no care to any moral shit, allow everything and profit from it and there you go. it's totally cyberpunk. in context

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man you make it all sound so boring.

Why is that? It's not like he's going ''Man LGTQ ''people'' should die'' or some shit.

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wow. can we all stand up and give a round of applause to this person who isn't thinking that LGBTQ+ people should die?

 

[mescalineeyes]

Why is that? It's not like he's going ''Man LGTQ ''people'' should die'' or some shit.

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telling the oppressed that they're being sensitive when they're being exploited is a bit rich.

 

[RDreamer]

Hard to tell what to think about this out of context. With CDPR's history it is easy to assume and not give the benefit of the doubt but then again if we don't give the benefit of the doubt that's tantamount to saying there's no way they could handle this setting at all. This sort of topic is very important to touch on within the world of Cyberpunk. What do they say about being trans in that world? What do they say about the corporations possibly fetishizing that in posters? We currently don't know the answer to that so the poster is context-less.

 

[Wise]

Just saw it


Wtf. Why would they put that in the game?

 

[Harlequin]

So I'm conflicted on this. The studio's history with transphobia certainly doesn't paint this in the best light but if the game in general handles LGBTQ themes and issues well, then this (to me) would be an example of inclusion moreso than anything else. Whether it being objectifying/fetishising is a problem or not would (IMO) depend on what other, similar in-game ads featuring cis people look like. If cis people are objectified in similar ways, I don't think it's a problem but if it's specifically trans characters who are shown like this, then yeah, that's not a good look. (Unless the game actually includes commentary on how trans people in its world are objectified more heavily than cis people and what kinds of negative consequences that has.) Similarly, if the rest of the game doesn't handle LGBTQ themes well, then this will come off more as them taking the piss and being all "Haha, look, a girl with a giant dick. Isn't that gross? LOL". So yeah, it all depends on what the rest of the game is like. So far, based on some of the stuff we've seen/heard about how the game seems to be handling minority characters, I don't have terribly high hopes.

 

[Deleted member 925]

Why is that? It's not like he's going ''Man LGTQ ''people'' should die'' or some shit.

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Dismissing our concerns can be just as damaging and is how progress is stifled.

Dude is a douche and has alt right views with that shit. Glad he got the boot.

 

[LumberPanda]

For those who don't get the complaints: By itself the ad is fine, sex & fetishization sells and in a non-transphobic future capitalist society then it's not out of place for this ad to exist to sell drinks, much like how Carl's Jr used fetishization of women to sell animal flesh.

The real problem is the context surrounding how CDPR, the polish government, and global society treats trans people. Maybe if trans representation in games (and CDPR in particular) was actually good then this would be fine. But they aren't willing to do that and it's just a spit in the face.

 

[Menelaus]

Hard to tell what to think about this out of context. With CDPR's history it is easy to assume and not give the benefit of the doubt but then again if we don't give the benefit of the doubt that's tantamount to saying there's no way they could handle this setting at all. This sort of topic is very important to touch on within the world of Cyberpunk. What do they say about being trans in that world? What do they say about the corporations possibly fetishizing that in posters? We currently don't know the answer to that so the poster is context-less.

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Isn't body modification a HUGE aspect of the cyberpunk world? Seems fairly obvious to me, it's a drink that alters your appearance/sexuality, not sure how this depiction is anything more than a futuristic strap on.

 

[Suicide King]

Thanks for this, helps me see this from a difference perspective. In this case, would the advert in question not be a problem if there are more trans people in the game who are not sexualised? (Given that we can then assume the model in the advertisement is willingly being sexualised)

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I don't necessarily think so. If the movie Black Panther had a black guy functioning as comedy relief by eating watermelon, complaining about unemployment and stealing bikes, then I would criticize that part of the movie and see the entire movie in a new light. Having decent representation shouldn't allow people to do a poor job in separate instances.
In CD Projekt Red's case, there is a bad history, and I feel like their decisions are not aligned with a discourse that supports LGBTQ+ people. It's not a problem that can be solved by just removing that advert and that representation of the character. There will always be a next time until they change their culture, and for now, even if they tried to show a trans person being sexualized as a social critique against fetishization, most people wouldn't believe that message as sincere, because of their ethos as a company that has not engaged in trans-friendly activities.

 

[Jecht]

Maybe they did and they were fine with it.

Also it is totally fetishitised. I'm just fine with big dick chicks being fetishitised. Jon Waters films are fetishitised and include some less than PC material. That's what makes them good.

Like the LGBTQ community isn't hive mind.

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Except that this fetishization creates actual fucking problems for trans people in the real world so maybe let's not make that worse by reinforcing that in the mainstream.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I'm black and gay, i know how it is. I'm not saying people aren't allowed to be sensitive or take something personally, especially if it relates to their existence. Im just saying the possibility of over reaction exists. I dont mean in this situation necessarily, im speaking in general.

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How is this thread a good time to bring up overreactions? 🤔

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

I'm glad that CDPR are trying to build bridges for their past mistakes by... having their first trans representative be fetishised in the way lots of cis guys will jerk it over trans porn but still refuses to call trans women or trans men by their correct pronouns.

After how they spoke to Waypoint last year fuck them and if you're giving them the benefit of doubt I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[Trago]

I don't think CDPR deserves the benefit of the doubt considering their history with transphobia.

Also, to make things easier for peeps joining the thread:

This is Objectification

Not Representation

I think some posters in here should have the common courtesy to show sensitivity towards our trans users here instead of drive-by posting with "How is this even offensive?!?!"

You can still be excited for the game, but it's important that problematic aspects that come to light be discussed and analyzed. That way we can progress.

 

[RDreamer]

Isn't body modification a HUGE aspect of the cyberpunk world? Seems fairly obvious to me, it's a drink that alters your appearance/sexuality, not sure how this depiction is anything more than a futuristic strap on.

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That's what I'm saying though. Body modification and corporations are a huge aspect of the cyperpunk world. I'm not sure I have the same reading of what the drink does that you do (to me it looks like it's just a drink that uses fetishized trans person on the ad much like we would see a fetishized woman on an ad now), but that's beyond the point. If we doubt CDPR can handle tackling issues like body modification and corporate advertising, then the game will be awful. Those are the thematic pillars!

 

[Arulan]

Aside from speculation about the artist's meta-commentary, it doesn't appear to be out of place within the setting. They've already discussed how important the theme of transhumanism will be, and how they won't shy about from nudity. This is a world where people can easily replace any part of their body with whatever they want, including sexual organs. The implications of this are pretty enormous. Combine that with capitalistic advertising, and you probably get something like that ad. Whether they're capable of saying something meaningful with these themes is yet to be seen though.

 

[Hinya]

telling the oppressed that they're being sensitive when they're being exploited is a bit rich.

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Yeah that's true, but with how often we have discussions like this, it looks like the LGBTQ community is looking for things to get sensitive about.

 

[Dphex]

Without context, this doesn't tell us much.

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+1

 

[Deleted member 8784]

I always try my best to be on the right side of these things, but threads like this remind me there's so much I still don't understand, or even know that these things exist to know that they're a problem.

Those who it does affect should absolutely kick up a stink about it. If it genuinely came from a place of ignorance, they can correct it and apologise.

 

[Deleted member 925]

Yeah that's true, but with how often we have discussions like this, it looks like the LGBTQ community is looking for things to get sensitive about.

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You're ignorant.

bye 👋

 

[Dest]

I'm a bi male, so perhaps there's something that I'm missing or that I just don't understand here but I don't personally see anything wrong with it, but also without context of how society in the game handles it it's a bit harder to tell.

I feel like, and please feel free to yell at me and tell me if I'm wrong, but in a future where this is normalized across the board and is accepted by the majority rather than the minority that advertising like this seems... fine? If sex and being transgender is something is something that is going to be accepted by the masses then it's not like sex is going to stop being used to sell product. Add on top of that that they've already stated that they're going to show people off/bodies off that are outside of what's currently widely regarded as socially acceptable, likely because they'll be handling topics like this and body modification... I hardly think it's fetishization.

I'm sure I could say all this a bit more eloquently, but my brain is fried at the moment. I can understand why some people could see it as being misrepresentation or fetishzation given the record of some people at the company, but within the context of the game I'd not be suprised to see advertising like this that spans humans and robots, cis and trans, gay and straight people, etc.

 

[Arulan]

.

 

[Complicated]

I don't trust CDPR with something like this at all. There is a game in which a cyberpunk corp fetishizes trans/crossdressers/body modded people/etc. to sell products which is shitty and something an evil corp would do and it works because you know the developer has considered all of this and how it will affect the audience before they put it in the game.

Them trying to do this with their very recent and very public history doesn't work at all if it wasn't accompanied by some explanation. The fact that it seems to be a shitty GTA-style throwaway joke ad that you laugh at for a second and move on doesn't help. But maybe it's not and there will be storytelling around this billboard and why it exists in this society. Idk. They said their little thing about the game world being shocking and fucked up last E3, but if they're just going to show glimpses of it without context for the next 9 months and not talk about how it's placed in the world they're fucking idiots and makes me suspect the thoughtfulness people might cling to being in the full game will not be there at all.

 

[Menelaus]

This is Objectification

Not Representation

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This is a fantasy game set in a transhuman (from a bio-mod standpoint, not just sex/gender) timeline. Why is it being held to this reality-based standard for representation when the rest of the game does not represent our actual reality?

I don't disagree that CDPR has bungled their messaging in the past, I just don't really see how THIS particular piece of art can be construed as a bungled representation of OUR reality, at least not with the in-game context we already have.

 

[Deleted member 37151]

Except that this fetishization creates actual fucking problems for trans people in the real world so maybe let's not make that worse by reinforcing that in the mainstream.

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But fetishisation has always been an important part of queer culture? From Jon Waters to Priscilla to drag (I know, a different, but intertwined culturally, thing).

 

[mutantmagnet]

How is a trans person being sexualized in an ad different to any other person?

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The difference is that

1. It is an impossibly large dong

2. It is an erect dong

Complaining about this should be the equivalent to complaining about women getting air brushed/photo-shopped to portray unrealistic bodies but because this form of advertising is so new there is additional baggage over having respectable advertising.

 

[nomemorial]

Yikes @ that poster. I was pretty intrigued by all of the ideas of transhumanism and beyond explored in this game, but things like that just feel like a massive misfire, especially considering the company's prior transphobia. Just seems like extremely poor taste and "edginess for the sake of it." Hope they prove me wrong.

 

[Kinsei]

But fetishisation has always been an important part of queer culture? From Jon Waters to Priscilla to drag (I know, a different, but intertwined culturally, thing).

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Fetishization of trans people isn't an important part of queer culture and leads to us being treated as sub human fuckdolls.

 

[Lozange]

Isn't this a "clever" and fast way to market an ingame-drink that let you change your gender? Other rpgs let you change your skills/etc. with a specific potion.

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This is something of a "results try to justify the means" situation.
Yes, the poster does get this information across. But you don't need to do THIS to get this across.
Here's a quick idea that theoretically gets the idea across a lot better: It's a poster of a person split down the middle, feminine person on the left, masculine person on the right. Some sort of tagline that says that they're the same person, drink gender juice today. Done.
...Like that probably still needs workshopping. But even if that's not perfect, that would get the idea across without doing all this.

 

[Rendering...]

I think it's a fairly striking ad myself, dick and all. If it turns out to be part of a transphobic pattern within the game then of course the devs should be called out for that. But the product isn't out yet.

 

[Jecht]

But fetishisation has always been an important part of queer culture? From Jon Waters to Priscilla to drag (I know, a different, but intertwined culturally, thing).

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Yes, and the side effect of that is the real damage it this type of stuff does to the trans community in particular.

That your only understanding of this seems to stem from John Waters films is telling tbh. Go talk to a real trans person about the problems fetishization creates when searching for a partner and only finding a bunch of chasers indoctrinated by porn.

 

[Trago]

This is a fantasy game set in a transhuman (from a bio-mod standpoint, not just sex/gender) timeline. Why is it being held to this reality-based standard for representation when the rest of the game does not represent our actual reality?

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The issue is that CDPR's history with transphobia on social media is leading many to believe that the ad is just cheap objectification of trans people.

So it's hard to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to exploring trans themes in a Cyberpunk game.

 

[mescalineeyes]

Aside from speculation about the artist's meta-commentary, it doesn't appear to be out of place within the setting. They've already discussed how important the theme of transhumanism will be, and how they won't shy about from nudity. This is a world where people can easily replace any part of their body with whatever they want, including sexual organs. The implications of this are pretty enormous. Combine that with capitalistic advertising, and you probably get something like that ad. Whether they're capable of saying something meaningful with these themes is yet to be seen though.

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let me put it this way: as cool as that looks and is, people just don't trust CDPR to do it in a manner that contextualizes these themes without making fun of or exploiting the marginalized groups.