This fetishized in-game ad from Cyberpunk 2077 raises some questions about how the game may depict LGBT (NSFW) [See Staff Post Before Posting]

[aerozombie]

How about you answer me this instead: what is your goal with these posts? Do you want people to stop discussing things? No? Then why are you even posting this type of garbage? Grow up.

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To say that it is SUPPOSE to be offensive as that is the context of a cyberpunk world. Discuss it as problematic in the terms of the real world, but not in the context that a game should change itself from treading on that territory. Most things that happen in a cyberpunk world should offend you, and taking shots at the developer over it is idiotic. The conversation should be how it reflects on the real world, not the game. You probably grew up where a lot of themes in a cyberpunk world revolved around mobs and violence where most would shrug it off or call it cool, but now you are facing a cyberpunk world that has themes that are sensitive to you.

 

[mikeys_legendary]

Not a good look at all considering their history.

I was on the fence about picking this up day 1, but I may have to skip it, or buy used. It all depends on what I hear about the game when it launches.

 

[uzipukki]

This sort of response is fair and understandable for exactly what you said, but we should still look for any comments made by CDpr in reference to this image. Don't think it would be the right call to stay silent. Wonder if they'll pull a hideo kojima and say something about "words and deeds".

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Like I said, theres always a chance that trans issues will be handled well in the game, but with their track record the chances are incredibly slim.. And even if people pointing this out to them gets them to issue a statement, it will be the usual "sorry you're offended" bullshit like they did the last time.

 

[Razmos]

As a white straight men, you'll be:

1) discriminated by your skin color?
2) discriminated by your gender?
3) discriminated by your sexual orientation

The answer is no (anectodes don't count, we are talking as a society, work, politics, etc).


We are not equal nowadays as much as you want to say it, we should, but still in 2019 black people face more racism than white people, women face more sexism than men, and heterophobia pretty much doesn't exist. You can't just say we are equal and leave it at it when the reality of this world is that we are not. This is having privilege, and WE white straight men in this current world are privileged.

If you really want this world to be equal, don't waste even 1 sec to deny the truth (our current privilege), and work to help and support others that are discriminated just for who they are.

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This is a great post

 

[Kyuuji]

To say that it is SUPPOSE to be offensive as that is the context of a cyberpunk world. Discuss it as problematic in the terms of the real world, but not in the context that a game should change itself from treading on that territory. Most things that happen in a cyberpunk world should offend you, and taking shots at the developer over it is idiotic. The conversation should be how it reflects on the real world, not the game. You probably grew up where a lot of themes in a cyberpunk world revolved around mobs and violence where most would shrug it off or call it cool, but now you are facing a cyberpunk world that has themes that are sensitive to you.

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I mean, come on.. "but it's supposed to be offensive" – you surely can't be an adult, right?

 

[JaxiPup]

snip

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Trans voice here, not saying I represent everyone but its worth noting.

My issue with this portrayal directly is the blatant fetishization of genitalia. It's a key centerpiece of the advertisement, framed as if to say 'look here'.

Trans folk to a lot to avoid being defined by our genitalia. We'll see 'genitalia preference' debates on facebook and cringe, as cis folks will go to great lengths to avoid outting themselves as transphobes but claim they wouldn't date one.

To boil a person down to their genitals goes against everything we fight for. We fight to make people understand our identities go beyond physical characteristics.

There is potential for trans body positivity. I've seen girls proudly exclaim that they're rocking a bulge. But this doesn't come from a place of positivity. It's blatant sexualization, and even potentially mockingly so

 

[AB (^_^)]

Note the crotch of the person in the enlarged image.

This is really yikes. It might not be so bad when divorced from context of the company's issues with transphobia, but even then it's disheartening to see. It reeks of fetishism. :/

Image in question:

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OK, I'll be the first to say that I do not know everything about genders, but based on the premise of the game, the message that I see here is how far humanity can go to alter their nature. Its more of an exageration of today's culture.

Today people who want to change their sex or gender goes great lengths to do so. Men have to go surgeries and after that they have to stay on medications if they want to stay on a female gender.

The way I see it is that the in game ad as an exageration of today's culture.

 

[60fps]

I can't see the problem with a tasteless ad in your fictional future cyberpunk world.
People expect everything to be nice and inoffensive?

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Wait until full release. I cannot even imagine the uproars caused by thousands different groups of people who feel offended by this game in some way and the bad mainstream media coverage. I don't think today's world is ready for a gritty & detailed first person Cyberpunk game.

 

[Riddler]

God, reading an entire thread of people saying 'its okay to marginalize you because its cyberpunk' in a world where Red Strings Club and Hardcoded exist, hits right in the gut

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Had to google Hardcoded.

JordanPeele sweating.gif

 

[BabyMurloc]

A lot of white straight dudes here trying too hard to justify the purchase of a game that is clearly out of touch with minorities. What a way to resolve their cognitive dissonance. "It's there only if you want to be there" "There is nothing wrong" "Its interpretation".

Guys the game is out of touch, it may be a cool game to play, an immersive world, an so on... but it has a lot of cultural and social issues addressed in the worst posible way.

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Let's wait until the game is out before reviewing it, ok? It's not to anyone's benefit to start assuming things that might or might not be in the final product.

 

[texni]

Yes there is, because it is world building. In Nazi Germany you would expect those posters randomly around a city, in a Cyberpunk you would expect extremes of fetishization shown in advertisements. This should be offensive and it makes sense why in the context of a cyberpunk world and the themes you would expect from the genre.

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to add more to your point ( which i agree with), the goal here is to create a coherent world, that feel alive and plausible within it's own context. shitty marketing is one of the best way to achieve that, especially in the world they try to create, because shitty marketing is something we are all accustomed to, this marketing is not propaganda, it's world building, a single add tells you a lot of things about cyberpunk world.
Economic disparity, Racism, modern segregation HAVE to be exacerbated.

 

[Grimminski]

I mean, come on.. "but it's supposed to be offensive" – you surely can't be an adult, right?

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Oh, he probably is.

 

[Alavard]

Let's wait until the game is out before reviewing it, ok? It's not to anyone's benefit to start assuming things that might or might not be in the final product.

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Or, hear me out, we could react to what they're marketing of the game now, and maybe cause them to fix their shit before the game releases.

 

[Gestault]

Not sure if that would be a joke in this world though, or simply reality that people are modifying their bodies with implants/stimulants and engaging in open sexuality.

As in joke with an intent to be derogatory, as opposed to trying to celebrate how accepted sexuality is in the mainstream in some sort of fun way.

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To be clear, I spelled that out because you seemed to insist it was a body-mod thing, not just a beverage. The way you didn't skip a beat and are now declaring that there's no negative subtext makes me raise an eyebrow.

 

[Mesoian]

Wait until full release. I cannot even imagine the uproars caused by thousands different groups of people who feel offended by this game in some way and the bad mainstream media coverage. I don't think today's world is ready for a gritty & detailed first person Cyberpunk game.

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Like, real talk, for me personally, when I first saw this game, I was hoping it would do more to explore cyberpunk as a construct and say something meaningful, rather than doing bad south park-esque jokes.

"Chromonster" is "City Wok" levels of eye roll.

 

[j.zed]

Well as we all know, sex sells. Why would this change in the future? Maybe one of the things that will change is that it's no longer just hot guy or hot girl that's used to sell products, it could be a model whose gender is more complicated than that. Not necessarily a negative thing if you ask me.

 

[BabyMurloc]

Or, hear me out, we could react to what they're marketing of the game now, and maybe cause them to fix their shit before the game releases.

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The post went beyond that. I mean, this thread is full of good posts discussing the problems in the material we've been shown/told about.

 

[Tayaya]

Trans voice here, not saying I represent everyone but its worth noting.

My issue with this portrayal directly is the blatant fetishization of genitalia. It's a key centerpiece of the advertisement, framed as if to say 'look here'.

Trans folk to a lot to avoid being defined by our genitalia. We'll see 'genitalia preference' debates on facebook and cringe, as cis folks will go to great lengths to avoid outting themselves as transphobes but claim they wouldn't date one.

To boil a person down to their genitals goes against everything we fight for. We fight to make people understand our identities go beyond physical characteristics.

There is potential for trans body positivity. I've seen girls proudly exclaim that they're rocking a bulge. But this doesn't come from a place of positivity. It's blatant sexualization, and even potentially mockingly so

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Thanks for this. It does help me understand a bit more. One of my trans friends used to rock the bulge and she was very proud of this. To me it's always been one of things that at least signifies that someone is curious about changing from the normal perceptions about who they are seen as. Eventually, he did decide to fully transition. You're right though... my other two trans friends have always just kept it very discreet. Knowing them as one gender for a decade made it a little hard to adjust, but now I don't even think about it. The only confusing thing left to cis old me is how do I refer to them in the past tense? Using their current gender or the gender they were at the time? It seems different people have different preferences there.

 

[Deleted member 888]

To be clear, I spelled that out because you seemed to insist it was a body-mod thing, not just a beverage. The way you didn't skip a beat and are now declaring that there's no negative subtext makes me raise an eyebrow.

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I didn't say there wasn't, just tried to look into why the ad might exist other than simply trying to advertise a beverage.

 

[impingu1984]

You know I think Cyberpunk settings are actually ripe for looking into how things like body dysmorphia might manifest if you had the ability to use scifi tech to do just about anything your imagination could want. Not sure how this game will handle it though which is sad as it could lead to some interesting conversations, figuratively and literally, and also to some more exploitation-y avenues like horror stuff. We'll see how this goes...

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Basically this, I'm not going to condemn the game on the basis of one poster we have briefly seen in a trailer without seeing how they handle it overall... It could have some very interesting, thoughtful, and well written discussions on the topic given the setting...

But with CDPRs track record around this I completely understand why people are extremely skeptical about that line of thinking.

For me I'd probably say it's there last chance on this topic... For others that time has passed.

I will be very interested to see how this pans out.

 

[JaxiPup]

Had to google Hardcoded.

JordanPeele sweating.gif

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There's a demo on itch.io ;3

 

[Beje]

A lot of you surely need to start listening to trans people and interacting with them instead of just getting the idea of how trans people are through porn stereotypes and Japanese media. I really really mean it.

In fact, just out of my twitter feed, latest post that popped up by a trans woman. And the follow up to that tweet is a very interesting article to read.

 

[Trickster]

A lot of white straight dudes here trying too hard to justify the purchase of a game that is clearly out of touch with minorities. What a way to resolve their cognitive dissonance. "It's there only if you want to be there" "There is nothing wrong" "Its interpretation".

Guys the game is out of touch, it may be a cool game to play, an immersive world, an so on... but it has a lot of cultural and social issues addressed in the worst posible way.

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Genuine question. What would be a good way to address cultural and social issues in a dystopian cyberpunk future? Which is basically a fucking shit future.

 

[Suicide King]

Do you think you're a good person for posting trash like this?

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Is this an argument? A rethorical question? Legitimately curious. Do you believe that being part of the majority but not lynching minorities excuses you from any kind of social analysis?

I am a male. If I don't consciously understand my role as a dominant gender in a society where women suffer some kind of oppression, then I'm still oppressing. Heck, even if I consciously mind my words and behaviors, I'm still someone who gets paid more and doesn't get harassed in certain spheres. I recommend you read about the concept of spiral of silence.

 

[Kyuuji]

Genuine question. What would be a good way to address cultural and social issues in a dystopian cyberpunk future? Which is basically a fucking shit future.

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"a fucking shit future" where someone has drawn the line on just how shit it is. As it's not real.
So if all you're going on is "it's supposed to be shit" where would you draw the line on who it's ok to be "shit" to and in what way, and why?

 

[JaxiPup]

Thanks for this. It does help me understand a bit more. One of my trans friends used to rock the bulge and she was very proud of this. To me it's always been one of things that at least signifies that someone is curious about changing from the normal perceptions about who they are seen as. Eventually, he did decide to fully transition. You're right though... my other two trans friends have always just kept it very discreet. Knowing them as one gender for a decade made it a little hard to adjust, but now I don't even think about it. The only confusing thing left to cis old me is how do I refer to them in the past tense? Using their current gender or the gender they were at the time? It seems different people have different preferences there.

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Vast majority of trans folk I know use current preferred pronouns even in past tense. Neutral they/them is also acceptable to lots of folks

 

[Javier23]

The post went beyond that. I mean, this thread is full of good posts discussing the problems in the material we've been shown/told about.

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The post very clearly stated the problem exactly as it is today - it has a lot of cultural and social issues addressed in the worst posible way. I was looking forward to this game as much as anyone else, but this warrants addressing NOW, because it is what they are showing TODAY, and what they are showing is simply not right.

 

[Arkanim94]

Genuine question. What would be a good way to address cultural and social issues in a dystopian cyberpunk future? Which is basically a fucking shit future.

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the problem isn't that they shouldn't address those problems, the problem is that most likely they won't address them in the right angle.

 

[Deleted member 18944]

You ever notice how rumors of MS and Nintendo teaming up become guaranteed stories among gamers but when it comes to calling game devs out on blatant transphobia it suddenly needs a thorough investigation from multiple parties and a congressional investigation before an opinion can be made.

Never change gaming community, allies you will never be.

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If we consider the wider gaming community to be blindly accepting everything that they read, then this is accurate. However, if we are narrowing our scope to people who want to understand the intent and context behind something before they commit to whatever action is required, then this isn't accurate.

We always talk about rumors as needing to be taken with a grain of salt, because its unverified. Trust, but verify.

 

[BAD]

People need to stop skipping the context of the fact this is coming from CD PROJEKT Red - a company known for poor representation and social issues handling.

 

[Kyuuji]

If we consider the wider gaming community to be blindly accepting everything that they read, then this is accurate. However, if we are narrowing our scope to people who want to understand the intent and context behind something before they commit to whatever action is required, then this isn't accurate.

We always talk about rumors as needing to be taken with a grain of salt, because its unverified. Trust, but verify.

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Hey, would you mind continuing this string from earlier?

I have a suspicion that any response from them will not be well received or believed, to be quite honest. I'm already getting the "GOTCHA" vibes from some of the responses.

And in end I completely agree that they are responsible for their own work and depictions and yeah, given their history should provide a response or explanation.

But again, I don't think it'll be believed or accepted.

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You seem to imply this is with the affronted side being irrational and not able to be appeased.

Instead it's that the CDP Group have gone from a non-apology for one transphobic incident, to flat-out not apologising in the next transphobic incident, to... whatever the hell this is.

So when two incidents are transphobic and the response is a non-apology and no apology, why is the immediate doubt being cast on behalf of the recipients of the response-to-be rather than the response itself.

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[Gestault]

OK, I'll be the first to say that I do not know everything about genders, but based on the premise of the game, the message that I see here is how far humanity can go to alter their nature. Its more of an exageration of today's culture.

Today people who want to change their sex or gender goes great lengths to do so. Men have to go surgeries and after that they have to stay on medications if they want to stay on a female gender.

The way I see it is that the in game ad as an exageration of today's culture.

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That reading of it leverages one of the key misunderstandings of trans identity, in that it's highlighting the claim that people are flippantly going through these changes, rather than it being a part of who they are on a more fundamental level. The same way gay conversion therapy is predicated on the idea that people are "choosing" to be gay. The way the imagery is used here, there's the strong impression the IRL artist/writer assumes it's ridiculous or "scary" that things would have "gone so far" in the future that this would be how drinks are sold. Because in-universe, the idea of a woman with a penis would be totally mundane in a society built around body modification and broader transhumanism.

The "joke" is that the poster shows something implicitly ridiculous, not that it's highlighting progress around an identity being accepted. This is similar to mocking hyper-sexualization in ads, but it's using discomfort with trans people as the punchline.

 

[Beje]

Genuine question. What would be a good way to address cultural and social issues in a dystopian cyberpunk future? Which is basically a fucking shit future.

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Trying not to use the multi-million platform you have to shit on oppressed people with a life expectancy of ~35 years old that are on the crosshairs of hate groups by perpetuating harmful stereotyping? Like, there are millions of stuff that can get really bad in a dystopian future about opression and inequality, so focusing on the group that's "hot" (i.e. getting all shitted on for daring to speak up and demand equal rights) in the current political climate is absolutely tone deaf.

 

[Alavard]

Trans voice here, not saying I represent everyone but its worth noting.

My issue with this portrayal directly is the blatant fetishization of genitalia. It's a key centerpiece of the advertisement, framed as if to say 'look here'.

Trans folk to a lot to avoid being defined by our genitalia. We'll see 'genitalia preference' debates on facebook and cringe, as cis folks will go to great lengths to avoid outting themselves as transphobes but claim they wouldn't date one.

To boil a person down to their genitals goes against everything we fight for. We fight to make people understand our identities go beyond physical characteristics.

There is potential for trans body positivity. I've seen girls proudly exclaim that they're rocking a bulge. But this doesn't come from a place of positivity. It's blatant sexualization, and even potentially mockingly so

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Thank you for this. I wanted to make some of these points, but I'm not trans.

This is a very good post that should be read.

 

[loquaciousJenny]

Would there be a defense force for this if it was a big black man with rippling oiled muscles in a towel advertising an energy drink with a tagline like "like a horse" or "stud" or something

Thanks for this. It does help me understand a bit more. One of my trans friends used to rock the bulge and she was very proud of this. To me it's always been one of things that at least signifies that someone is curious about changing from the normal perceptions about who they are seen as. Eventually, he did decide to fully transition. You're right though... my other two trans friends have always just kept it very discreet. Knowing them as one gender for a decade made it a little hard to adjust, but now I don't even think about it. The only confusing thing left to cis old me is how do I refer to them in the past tense? Using their current gender or the gender they were at the time? It seems different people have different preferences there.

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Trans people have always been their gender it's a question of realizing it and coming to grips with it.
I wasn't a boy ever, even when I tried so hard to conform.

 

[Deleted member 2699]

It seems difficult to give CDPR the benefit of the doubt on this considering their past with trans-issues. I am curious if anyone knows how trans/non-binary people where represented in Cyberpunk 2020? Where they better represented? About the same? Or where they never really brought up at all in the game?

 

[Deleted member 52065]

I am so sick of the gaming community giving creators and companies a pass on blatant ignorance and bigotry just because they create popular or acclaimed games. This goes beyond CDPR. I am looking at you Kojima.

 

[Xaszatm]

Would there be a defense force for this if it was a big black man with rippling oiled muscles in a towel advertising an energy drink with a tagline like "like a horse" or "stud" or something

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Unfortunately yes there would be. Some idiot would be unable to help themselves revealing their true scummy nature.

 

[Javier23]

I don't think today's world is ready for a gritty & detailed first person Cyberpunk game.

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Someone must have said literally 20 years ago in the run up to Deus Ex release in 2000. Considered one of the best games ever made, it totally did without offensive and juvenile dumb shit like this.

 

[Pyro]

At the very least that is fetishism. But given the company's history with this stuff, it doesn't bode well for the representation in the final game.

 

[Trickster]

"a fucking shit future" where someone has drawn the line on just how shit it is. As it's not real.
So if all you're going on is "it's supposed to be shit" where would you draw the line on who it's ok to be "shit" to and in what way, and why?

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My "line" is "does it make sense that this would be in a game with this setting". I think it does makes sense that there would be an ad like this in this setting. Of course that doesn't mean it's good ad, or how I think trans people should be represented in the real world.

I would still like to know what would be a good way to address these cultural and social issues that people think are being addressed poorly in 2077 though

 

[Razmos]

Wait until full release. I cannot even imagine the uproars caused by thousands different groups of people who feel offended by this game in some way and the bad mainstream media coverage. I don't think today's world is ready for a gritty & detailed first person Cyberpunk game.

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It being a cyberpunk game doesn't excuse it from being offensive, especially when it's coming from a company with a bad track record of being fucking bigots or refusing to address or apologise for offending.
Theres nothing wrong with the game being edgy if done in the right way, but from everything seen so far the game seems to handle it in an amateur, childish and irresponsible way

 

[AHA-Lambda]

Edit: nvm

 

[Tiny Chihuahueño]

No one is going to blame him for this, though.

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I can see someone starting a change.org petition so Keanu doesn't appear in CP2077, otherwise he's clearly supporting a transphobic studio and deserves to be cancelled yadda yadda, you know how it is.

But looking at that piece of art alone, I don't really know what to make of it. Who did it? With what purpose? Who's this character?

They don't seem to have the best record regarding these topics, but I need more information

 

[Suicide King]

Would there be a defense force for this if it was a big black man with rippling oiled muscles in a towel advertising an energy drink with a tagline like "like a horse" or "stud" or something

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This is why it's so hard to be intersectional with some people that can't understand their own dominant identities. Any other minority has a simpler potential to be understanding of the issues that trans people face, but it's just way too hard to try awakening this same understanding from groups that only identify themselves as apolitical, woke gamers. If the only woe a guy had to live with was a game being cancelled, then he sure as fuck wouldn't understand how some people feel scared for their lives for being queer, black, female, refugee, etc.

 

[Kyuuji]

My "line" is "does it make sense that this would be in a game with this setting". I think it does makes sense that there would be an ad like this in this setting. Of course that doesn't mean it's good ad, or how I think trans people should be represented in the real world.

I would still like to know what would be a good way to address these cultural and social issues that people think are being addressed poorly in 2077 though

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You said it yourself, the setting is a "fucking shit future". So if you wouldn't stop at transphobia where would you go next?

What other minority groups would you be alright offending in that setting?

 

[Javier23]

...

 

[Gustaf]

I'm genuinely wanting to understand this, because I'm only seeing the angst against it in my feeds, but what exactly is wrong with the image?

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given CDPR previous mishavings with trans topics

and the fact that is a woman with a giant penis and the words MIX IT UP! all over the place.

seems to be they are taking the piss on all the people who complained about lgbt issues on CDPR

 

[Trickster]

the problem isn't that they shouldn't address those problems, the problem is that most likely they won't address them in the right angle.

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But the person I quoted is stating that they already are addressing the social and cultural issues in the worst possible ways, not that they might.

You said it yourself, the setting is a "fucking shit future". So if you wouldn't stop at transphobia where would you go next?

What other minority groups would you be alright offending in that setting?

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So you just want me to answer your questions while not answering mine?

And that's a loaded fucking question alright

 

[Dphex]

I don't think today's world is ready for a gritty & detailed first person Cyberpunk game.

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this, nothing more to say

Cyberpunk as a genre is literally fueled by cliches, stereotypes and racist undertones and the source material Cyberpunk 2020 is exactly that.

do people even know the source material? when you do a game based on Cyberpunk 2020 you can expect Cyberpunk in the most hamfisted way possible. Even Shadowrun has more nuances than CP2020. not to excuse anything but when they decided to stay true to the source material then yeah, it will hit a lot of people in the wrong way.