This Gender Neutral Santa "thing"

Richiek · Dec 18, 2018

This whole gender neutral Santa thing is bullshit.

https://junkee.com/santa-gender-neutral-story/187123

It's just a marketing ploy to generate publicity for a brand/company by creating false controversy.

LosDaddie · Dec 18, 2018

Glad I haven't seen this bullshit on my timeline

nemoral · Dec 18, 2018

It's Mrs. Claus that runs the whole show. She keeps the books, orders the materials, directs the elves, and plots Santa's course for the evening. He's just the delivery driver.

The reindeer are all women, too. Male reindeer lose their antlers during the cold season, so the depictions of the horned reindeer throughout history makes it clear that the whole team was women reindeer.

TheGhost · Dec 18, 2018

Parvaati said:
Yeah. In quite a few movies I remember Santa being depicted as sort of immature. Mrs. Claus was the more mature and rational of the two and often had to run things in his stead/lead him on the right track.

This as well, she keeps him in line
If it wasn't for her he would have slacked on his duties.

trikster40 · Dec 18, 2018

Easy. It's a great opportunity to talk about how a couple needs each other and helps each other. Talk about how Santa Claus couldn't do his job without Mrs. Claus just like you cant' without your SO. You can talk about how Mrs Claus does just as much work as Santa, and while Santa delivers the actual toys, it's Mrs Claus who knows what present you want and makes sure it gets made.

Goodlifr · Dec 18, 2018

trikster40 said:
Easy. It's a great opportunity to talk about how a couple needs each other and helps each other. Talk about how Santa Claus couldn't do his job without Mrs. Claus just like you cant' without your SO. You can talk about how Mrs Claus does just as much work as Santa, and while Santa delivers the actual toys, it's Mrs Claus who knows what present you want and makes sure it gets made.

All well and good.
But Santa is the one who gets all the credit

MisterR · Dec 18, 2018

Santa is fine. Everyone will survive if Santa remains a man.

lmcfigs · Dec 18, 2018

Political correctness has gone too far this time.

trikster40 · Dec 18, 2018

Goodlifr said:
All well and good.
But Santa is the one who gets all the credit

And you're always going to have people who only tell their kids that. It's up to individual parents to teach their kids about life, about how sometimes people get credit for things but there's a lot of support behind them to be able to do what they do. That's life, and it's going to happen to everyone sooner or later. If you can instill in your child the importance of support and hard work without having to get all the credit, you're probably going to have a successful kid.

Many kids grow up in homes where dad/mom goes to work and dad/mom stays home. They're used to seeing one person who goes to work and the other doing things to keep the house going.

I think we forget what we thought of Santa as a child. I know I didn't think Mrs Claus was some lazy woman who did nothing. Yes, we watch for Santa but that doesn't mean we disparaged Mrs Claus.

marrec · Dec 18, 2018

Goodlifr said:
All well and good.
But Santa is the one who gets all the credit

Motherfucker delivers billions of presents in a single night that's pretty worthy of credit.

Like, if you wanna take this bullshit to it's logical conclusion, he's a magical wizard who commands a team of magical reindeer and gives everyone presents. Mrs. Claus being the bookkeeper and general manager ain't got shit on that.

If you really, really wanna know the actual truth in how you should deal with this, however... Santa and Mrs. Santa aren't real. You could use this as a teaching opportunity for your daughter within the constructs of the fantasy, or you can just admit it's all bullshit, but musing on a Mrs. Santa who delivers presents instead of a Mr. Santa is a complete non-starter. The dynamic between these two fictional characters can represent an actual real-world dynamic if you want, you don't HAVE to switch the genders around in order to make things fit neatly into our contemporary woke society.

pokeystaples · Dec 18, 2018

You're already lying about Santa being real. Just make up another lie about Mrs. Claus. The key is to remember the lie.

Manmademan · Dec 18, 2018

Roven said:
Santa is not real

Sounds like something someone on the naughty list would say

OrdinaryPrime · Dec 18, 2018

Tence said:
What are you talking about?

Some anime thing. Although Mordred is from Arthurian myth. I'm just unsure how it relates here.

Goodlifr · Dec 18, 2018

MisterR said:
Santa is fine. Everyone will survive if Santa remains a man.

Yeah, of course they will.

Just notice recently that EVERYTHING is just geared up that way. In isolation it's stupid to think about it.
But, it's just a long long list of things you / I feel I have to fight for the sake of my daughters (selfishly)

Thordinson · Dec 18, 2018

I don't see what the outrage is about. I know the poll was designed to create an artificial outrage but why does it matter gender a fictional being is? If people want to portray a female or gender neutral Santa, why would it bother me? I don't get it.

Rampage · Dec 18, 2018

Goodlifr said:
Yeah, of course they will.

Just notice recently that EVERYTHING is just geared up that way. In isolation it's stupid to think about it.
But, it's just a long long list of things you / I feel I have to fight for the sake of my daughters (selfishly)

Explain Santa is just the delivery man. The real power behind Chrismas is Mrs. Clause. She is the mastermind behind the research, promotion, manufacturing, warehousing and distribution. Santa is just her marketing tool/ logo. Anyone can put on that suit and sit in a mall. No man can replace Mrs. Clause. She is the Jeff Bezos and Santa is the Amazon delivery guy in a banged up car.

Terminus · Dec 18, 2018

You can't just ignore the existence of Mrs. Claus in pop culture without prompting awkward questions, nor can you easily pivot to telling your kids Santa is a woman if you've been sticking to tradition thus far.

My advice? Definitely lean into the "lore is vague" angle. Tell them Santa and Mrs. Claus take turns delivering the presents and minding the shop, and just because Santa made the first present delivery run the stories we hear have all come to focus on immortalizing that debut performance. No need to overcomplicate things by carefully mapping out power dynamics and maximally subverting stereotypes. One year Santa flies the sleigh, the next it's Mrs. Claus.

Hollywood Duo · Dec 18, 2018

just worship Krampus instead

CoolestSpot · Dec 18, 2018

Mrs.Claus plans the trip and logstics all year, then Santa spends one day to go out and do it in one night. Thats how I always saw it.

Goodlifr · Dec 18, 2018

CoolestSpot said:
Mrs.Claus plans the trip and logstics all year, then Santa spends one day to go out and do it in one night. Thats how I always saw it.

Yeah, totally.
But, Santa is the hero.
Mrs Claus is not.

That's a hard sell

Deleted member 5028 · Dec 18, 2018

Betty said:
Go with "Mrs Claus died" or "They got a divorce"

You're welcome in advance.

Or she runs the factory and Santa is just the fucking postman. Which is true.

Burly · Dec 18, 2018

Betty said:
Go with "Mrs Claus died" or "They got a divorce"

You're welcome in advance.

So you're saying Santa is single? I think I know what present Santa has been delivering when he shows up late at night.

marrec · Dec 18, 2018

Goodlifr said:
Yeah, totally.
But, Santa is the hero.
Mrs Claus is not.

That's a hard sell

That's the thing though, when you buy into this cultural apocrypha you're stuck with the antiquities of the past. Everything about Christmas is the product of dragging millennia of religious tradition through increasingly secular and patriarchal societies.

I'd just bite the bullet and be like "look kid, Santa and Mrs. Claus ain't real, but there are real life superheroes you can look up too who perform seeming magic everyday"

You're beating yourself up for nothing, because Mr. and Mrs. Claus aren't exactly the most culturally relevant couple in 2018.

CoolestSpot · Dec 18, 2018

marrec said:
That's the thing though, when you buy into this cultural apocrypha you're stuck with the antiquities of the past. Everything about Christmas is the product of dragging millennia of religious tradition through increasingly secular and patriarchal societies.

I'd just bite the bullet and be like "look kid, Santa and Mrs. Claus ain't real, but there are real life superheroes you can look up too who perform seeming magic everyday"

You're beating yourself up for nothing, because Mr. and Mrs. Claus aren't exactly the most culturally relevant couple in 2018.

That's dumb. Tell your kids Superman and Supergirl deliever gifts instead then repackage all your old Super comics as presents

Z-Beat · Dec 18, 2018

If Fairly Oddparents is any indication, Mrs. Claus is co-CEO

marrec · Dec 18, 2018

CoolestSpot said:
That's dumb. Tell your kids Superman and Supergirl deliever gifts instead then repackage all your old Super comics as presents

That's a much better idea than trying to shoehorn a gender swap or gender neutral Santa into Christmas.

Grisby · Dec 18, 2018

Just say she also delivers presents in her own sleigh or rides with him.

Ride or die yo.

Koo · Dec 18, 2018

I don't think Mrs. Claus has to represent every facet of womanhood. She's just a 'traditional housewife', whatever that means in modern times. Although you could show your daughters The Year Without a Santa Claus. There she basically goes off to save the day, fantasizes about being Santa herself, and knows a lot of cool/hot mythical people and lays down the law with them.

Overall I would view her as a caretaker in whatever form that takes. She may not receive the same glory as Santa, but she's respected and appreciated for what she does; and she's satisfied with that without being in the spotlight like her husband.

Platy · Dec 18, 2018

Well saint nicholas was a dude

he was also black, but whatever

Betty · Dec 18, 2018

SlipperyFishes said:
Or she runs the factory and Santa is just the fucking postman. Which is true.

Exactly, just say to them "Mrs Claus works 365 days a year while Santa only works one, face it kids he's a bum!"

Burly said:
So you're saying Santa is single? I think I know what present Santa has been delivering when he shows up late at night.

FeistyBoots · Dec 18, 2018

Coyote Starrk said:
What? What does that even mean?

That the poster is an asshole.

Officer Big Mac · Dec 18, 2018

Mrs Claus got divorced and became a direct competitor to Santa. She utilized JustInTime manufacturing processes and utilized a regional approach to distribution and assembly which made her far more money than her ex husband. She now is CEO of Earth.

AnansiThePersona · Dec 18, 2018

Gender-neutral Santa is the funniest thing I've read all week. Thanks OP

Carl2291 · Dec 18, 2018

It's a bullshit story taken from a select few social media "outrage" posts and pushed by news sites to profit on the "outrage" against it.

Then the alt-right will use it in the future to shut down real concerns.

Vicious cycle.

DeathPeak · Dec 18, 2018

Talk about all the work Mrs. Claus does. Give her the credit she deserves from running the factory and maintaining order in the North Pole while Santa just kind of works one night. Mrs. Claus is the real MVP. She was ready to take shit into her own hands in The Year Without a Santa Claus when he was whiny and playing sick.

Kevyt · Dec 18, 2018

I have not heard of that before, and there are many queer individuals who I know who don't believe or don't follow the Santa thing to begin with.

Mi goreng said:
men shouldn't be a thing anymore

Coyote Starrk said:
What? What does that even mean?

I think they mean that men should simply be erased from existence. Which is a sentiment I share with them, delete men tbh.

Roven said:
Santa is not real

And this is key!

Krauser Kat · Dec 18, 2018

mythical creatures of yore and holidays should no longer be tied to genders. Women can be santa if they want to.

marrec · Dec 18, 2018

Kevyt said:
I think they mean that men should simply be erased from existence. Which is a sentiment I share with them, delete men tbh.

This may be controversial, but as a man I think men are pretty cool.

Chindogg · Dec 18, 2018

Mrs. Claus handles all of the logistics and actual day to day operations of the North Pole. Santa is merely a figurehead and delivery boy.

Goodlifr · Dec 18, 2018

DeathPeak said:
Talk about all the work Mrs. Claus does. Give her the credit she deserves from running the factory and maintaining order in the North Pole while Santa just kind of works one night. Mrs. Claus is the real MVP. She was ready to take shit into her own hands in The Year Without a Santa Claus when he was whiny and playing sick.

Yeah, I know.
But dunno, doesn't quite sit right.
Woman does all the work.
Man does one night and takes all the credit.

Again, IT'S NOT A BIG THING. It's a made up tradition. I don't massively have a problem with it and I've never really thought about it.
It's just another thing I feel I / we need to deal with in a long line of things when I'm trying to "help" my daughters find their way in the world

itwasTuesday · Dec 18, 2018

I saw mommy kissing santa clause is based on true accounts

I think Mrs. Clause left him years ago.

Deleted member 44129 · Dec 18, 2018

It's the same shit again and again, and people fall for it again and again.
1. Random person asks if something should be done differently for political correctnesses sake.
2. People reply "no, not really, well maybe, dunno"
3. Right wing press scream from the highest hilltop "EVERYTHING IS BEING MADE ILLEGAL OMG!!!"
4. People scream "EVERYTHING IS BEING MADE ILLEGAL OMG!!!"
5. People vote for bastards.

marrec · Dec 18, 2018

Goodlifr said:
Again, IT'S NOT A BIG THING. It's a made up tradition. I don't massively have a problem with it and I've never really thought about it.
It's just another thing I feel I / we need to deal with in a long line of things when I'm trying to "help" my daughters find their way in the world

I understand your concerns but they're unfounded. We don't actually have to deal with Santa Claus being a man. Sometimes men can do things, sometimes women can do things. You don't have to make your daughter feel like a woman can be Santa. If you want too that's fine and god speed but it's not needed.

Goodlifr · Dec 18, 2018

marrec said:
I understand your concerns but they're unfounded. We don't actually have to deal with Santa Claus being a man. Sometimes men can do things, sometimes women can do things. You don't have to make your daughter feel like a woman can be Santa. If you want too that's fine and god speed but it's not needed.

Oh totally.
I agree with what you're saying.

But (there's always a but) it's hard to find the things "women can do" (like, in popular culture).
It shouldn't matter. It doesn't matter, I know this. The outrage is the biggest part of this story (as people have mentioned above)
But.... just the more I think about things, like actually think and experience things, the more I just see struggle everywhere.
Like I'm reading my eldest the Famous Five books at the moment... I'm constantly having to change the sentences where they are talking about Anne being this clueless girl who cries at everything and how surprising it is George can do stuff as she's a girl.... It's not important, I know, just I really am starting to notice how this constant bombardment is going to have an affect

chezzymann · Dec 18, 2018

Kevyt said:
I think they mean that women should simply be erased from existence. Which is a sentiment I share with them, delete women tbh.

If this was your post I feel like you would be dogpiled and banned

marrec · Dec 18, 2018

Goodlifr said:
Oh totally.
I agree with what you're saying.

But (there's always a but) it's hard to find the things "women can do" (like, in popular culture).
It shouldn't matter. It doesn't matter, I know this. The outrage is the biggest part of this story (as people have mentioned above)
But.... just the more I think about things, like actually think and experience things, the more I just see struggle everywhere.
Like I'm reading my eldest the Famous Five books at the moment... I'm constantly having to change the sentences where they are talking about Anne being this clueless girl who cries at everything and how surprising it is George can do stuff as she's a girl.... It's not important, I know, just I really am starting to notice how this constant bombardment is going to have an affect

The Famous Five are books published before many of parents of people posting on this forum. Santa as we know it is even older. If you want better examples for your kids there are numerous contemporary series you could be reading in the meantime while they get older and can put things like The Famous Five in their proper context.

It IS important to raise your daughter the best way you think you can, I'm not here to make you feel like you're concentrating on unimportant things, but if your strategy is to covertly adjust the gender roles of this ancient stuff then I think you could ease your own suffering by just introducing new stuff instead.

Also, children are surprisingly smart and able to understand why something like The Famous Five may portray the female characters in a less than flattering light. It's more important for you to talk to them about these things than to try and hide the truth and let them discover it later, in my opinion of course.

rjinaz · Dec 18, 2018

chezzymann said:
If this was your post I feel like you would be dogpiled and banned

Yeah it's gross. I don't think there is anything wrong with pointing out the apparent problems with the male gender, in regards to trends both historically and currently. But, saying you want all men to not exist is some pretty vile shit.

DeathPeak · Dec 18, 2018

Goodlifr said:
Yeah, I know.
But dunno, doesn't quite sit right.
Woman does all the work.
Man does one night and takes all the credit.

What's stopping you from including how unfair it is that Santa gets all the credit? You can point out that it's shitty that she doesn't get more credit.

hey it's that dog · Dec 18, 2018

Roven said:
Santa is not real

Reported.

Netherscourge · Dec 18, 2018

Santa's workshop sounds very similar to Foxconn.

We don't hear about the unhappy elves though...

This Gender Neutral Santa "thing"

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