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Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
What do you mean? The comics they have now are under a lot of restrictions because of that guy. There was a point yes where they weren't paying attention, they are now , there are rules and the books are much better.

Yeah, like the other big thing to think about Sonic was that to Sega at least in Japan, they never really carried their mascots forward into the next generation beyond lip service, and were mostly content to quietly retire them after giving them a last hurrah. It's true, because for Sega at the time, moving onto the Saturn meant Sonic was done.

Professor Asobin was not a game character but practically the SG-1000 mascot due to his regular appearance in game documents. He showed up in Master System stuff for a little while and then quietly was dropped.
Alex Kidd was the Master System mascot. Got several games (including a few re-skins like Hi-Tech World, a Japanese quiz adventure game that got turned into a Sega-themed quiz game, as well as Shinobi World), the last of which was a marginal early Genesis title. Again, quietly dropped.
After Sonic & Knuckles closed out 1994, Sonic got...Sonic R and a handful of weird Game Gear spinoffs. And then that was it until Sonic Adventure, really.
 

TreIII

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,280
Columbia, MD
Yeah, like the other big thing to think about Sonic was that to Sega at least in Japan, they never really carried their mascots forward into the next generation beyond lip service, and were mostly content to quietly retire them after giving them a last hurrah. It's true, because for Sega at the time, moving onto the Saturn meant Sonic was done.

Professor Asobin was not a game character but practically the SG-1000 mascot due to his regular appearance in game documents. He showed up in Master System stuff for a little while and then quietly was dropped.
Alex Kidd was the Master System mascot. Got several games (including a few re-skins like Hi-Tech World, a Japanese quiz adventure game that got turned into a Sega-themed quiz game, as well as Shinobi World), the last of which was a marginal early Genesis title. Again, quietly dropped.
After Sonic & Knuckles closed out 1994, Sonic got...Sonic R and a handful of weird Game Gear spinoffs. And then that was it until Sonic Adventure, really.

I don't think it's quite that simple. While it's true that Sonic is one of the poster children for a mismanaged brand, let's not forget that there were clear ideas and the best of intentions in mind to keep the Sonic "brand" moving forward. In other words, he was supposed to have a much more poignant presence on the Sega Saturn, in the form of the infamous Sonic X-treme.

The link contains a much more intricate write-up, but in short, all signs pointed to that Sega saw Sonic's potential and were intending to keep him in the game while his rivals and everybody else were going 3D. But as was documented in the article, the project had multiple setbacks and a variety of issues. As a result of all that, the Saturn died without having a flagship game to keep driving the brand forward, and lost out on an entire generation, while Mario and newcomers like Crash enjoyed success.

So suffice to say, it was largely up to the Sonic comics and cartoons to keep the brand in the hearts and minds of kids and fans, during those "lost years" up until Adventure's release. Good for Sega, because it meant that there was an audience that was still even there after that 4-5 year gap after Sonic 3&K for Naka and his crew to market towards. Bad for Sega, because that whole lackadaisical period was definitely a contributing factor to problems that still affect Sonic to this day, as the subject matter of this topic indicates.
 

Zero-ELEC

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,562
México
A distinct lack of Penders in this page:

wl2h6c.jpg
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Alright I guess it's time to out myself as a fucking weirdo. I like Penders' extended Echidna cast in the Sonic universe and I think the series was worse off without them. Apart from Julie-Su and Finitevus being genuinely cool I liked that it was something that gave the comic its own identity compared to the games, which is something the current comic has a serious problem with.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
To be fair, "They got rid of all the characters surrounding him and changed his personality" sound like they could be Sega directives.
They were. And it was handled so poorly. For the age and personality thing, it came from a mistake about Charmy's age in localization way back in the day with Knuckles Chaotix. The localization aged him up. Though to be fair, I don't even think the JP manual even gave Charmy an age, the loc team just likely assumed because the other characters were given ages of 16-17. And then when Sonic Heroes came out, Charmy was given the official age of 6 years old. So the comic team went the very offensive route to age him down by giving him brain damage.
 

MechaX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,040
Now I am just really curious on what the straw that broke the camel's back was for SEGA noticing and getting involved

Oh man, to be a fly in the room when they're reading shit like Sonic strapping an Emerald to his back and outrunning time
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
Now I am just really curious on what the straw that broke the camel's back was for SEGA noticing and getting involved

Oh man, to be a fly in the room when they're reading shit like Sonic strapping an Emerald to his back and outrunning time
To be fair, I'm pretty sure "speedy character outruns time" is something that superhero comics had done before, so it's not that absurd to think of a Chaos Emerald-powered Sonic doing the same.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
To be fair, I'm pretty sure "speedy character outruns time" is something that superhero comics had done before, so it's not that absurd to think of a Chaos Emerald-powered Sonic doing the same.

For the love of god it's even one of the few times the series has actually referenced honest-to-goodness real game mechanics. Even the official Sonic CD adaptation was content to do little more than give us amy and metal sonic
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,807
Now I am just really curious on what the straw that broke the camel's back was for SEGA noticing and getting involved
I wish I knew the exact conversations had after that point, because how the characters change, even now indicates that sega wants to avoid everything that happened during that period. So that shit still got them fucked up

Alright I guess it's time to out myself as a fucking weirdo. I like Penders' extended Echidna cast in the Sonic universe and I think the series was worse off without them. Apart from Julie-Su and Finitevus being genuinely cool I liked that it was something that gave the comic its own identity compared to the games, which is something the current comic has a serious problem with.

Ok ,I don't think you are a weirdo. All I want to ask is simply, what idenity do you think that gave the comic and what Idenity do you think the new comic lacks? I'm gonna be real with you , I hate most pre-reboot archie/DiC characters. I don't think they were interesting, this includes the echidinas. The idenity I want a sonic comic to have is " characters from the games I like doing neat shit with cool stories " and for a good long time I felt like that idenity was obfuscated by these other characters. So to say i'm not fond of em s an understatement. But i'm interested in your take
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,328
To be fair, I'm pretty sure "speedy character outruns time" is something that superhero comics had done before, so it's not that absurd to think of a Chaos Emerald-powered Sonic doing the same.
Yeah, The Flash. The Flash has had many notable moments in comics about time and/or time travel, Flashpoint being the most well known for how he changed the past which altered reality. He's even outran death itself.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I wish I knew the exact conversations had after that point, because how the characters change, even now indicates that sega wants to avoid everything that happened during that period. So that shit still got them fucked up



Ok ,I don't think you are a weirdo. All I want to ask is simply, what idenity do you think that gave the comic and what Idenity do you think the new comic lacks? I'm gonna be real with you , I hate most pre-reboot archie/DiC characters. I don't think they were interesting, this includes the echidinas. The idenity I want a sonic comic to have is " characters from the games I like doing neat shit with cool stories " and for a good long time I felt like that idenity was obfuscated by these other characters. So to say i'm not fond of em s an understatement. But i'm interested in your take

I guess I should clarify that I like them more in concept than I do under Penders' awful writing.

I'm a big fan of expanded universes, what goes on in different corners of the world, and the old Sonic comic was good at that. Sonic was constantly going on adventures to different locales and meeting different people, and the world was strange and bizarre and unshackled by the needs to fit into Sega's broader marketing.

IDW's Sonic has thus far taken place in Animal Village A, a cave, Angel Island, and Animal Village B. There's no sense of a lived in world, just generic locations for Sonic to get into fight scenes.
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,807
I guess I should clarify that I like them more in concept than I do under Penders' awful writing.

I'm a big fan of expanded universes, what goes on in different corners of the world, and the old Sonic comic was good at that. Sonic was constantly going on adventures to different locales and meeting different people, and the world was strange and bizarre and unshackled by the needs to fit into Sega's broader marketing.

IDW's Sonic has thus far taken place in Animal Village A, a cave, Angel Island, and Animal Village B. There's no sense of a lived in world, just generic locations for Sonic to get into fight scenes.
OK I agree with everything you are saying and desire that.

One of the reasons I didn't like the pre-reboot expansion but liked the reboot expansions is because the pre-reboot heavily leaned in one specific time of expansion but never really felt like it expanded beyond that. It seemed like it mostly focused arouns the kingdom, royal family, knuckles's peeps and various other grandfathered in storylines I did not give a single crap about. And it being so focused on those things, for a guy like me who came up in the adventure era , it left me assed out.
I feel like the post reboot era was better executed in this regard the characters and plot lines introduced there spaned all types of sonic characters and and eras of sonic .You had blaze existing and fighting mecha pirates, you had chaotix hanging out with an entire new set of species under the sea, you had shadow dealing with his black armed bretheren. You had sonic and the FF learn there FF crews stationed around the world. And i'm sorry that you lost knuckes's family, but once the comic became unshackled from all that penders stuff its creations became much more interesting.

So in generally I agree with you and desire that for the new comic. Sonic's world is virtually undiscovered, yes we know places that exist but in general interacting with other people in sonic's world/mobius/animal land whatever you want to call never happened untill like... now. Like 2 years ago. ( though that's because we assumed there was a single world untill a few years ago ) . So its a fresh landscape you can add some character to

But I understand why the current book is the way it is
1) There is only a single book at the moment
2) They probably need to use the characters which doesn't allow room for background development in a single book.

I think the issues you have will eventually sort themselves out as more spin off books are in the rotation and it allows other characters to go and exploe and expand on stuff in stories dedicated to more than a single issue. But untill then I get why this is happening.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,345
I said it in another thread. It's pains me to see how I was perfectly capable of drawing better Sonic comics with silly ocs when I was 14 in the 90s than a guy who was doing it professionally, like, for money.

Why him, of all the millions of people willing to draw a good sonic comic.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
I don't think it's quite that simple. While it's true that Sonic is one of the poster children for a mismanaged brand, let's not forget that there were clear ideas and the best of intentions in mind to keep the Sonic "brand" moving forward. In other words, he was supposed to have a much more poignant presence on the Sega Saturn, in the form of the infamous Sonic X-treme.

Sure, but this seemed to have mostly come specifically as a result of interest from the American branch and not a concerted effort from Sega as a whole.
While the game had so many problems in development that it was basically impossible for it to succeed, one of the more notable ones to my mind is what I would consider active sabotage from Yuji Naka, and which I consider evidence that Sega of Japan didn't give even half a shit about the game even though the Saturn was doing relatively well there.
 

TreIII

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,280
Columbia, MD
Sure, but this seemed to have mostly come specifically as a result of interest from the American branch and not a concerted effort from Sega as a whole.
While the game had so many problems in development that it was basically impossible for it to succeed, one of the more notable ones to my mind is what I would consider active sabotage from Yuji Naka, and which I consider evidence that Sega of Japan didn't give even half a shit about the game even though the Saturn was doing relatively well there.

I dunno. Obviously, the full story will likely continue to elude us, but I don't think Naka's prima donna antics should be an indicator of SoJ's attitude as a whole. Naka had "his ways of getting what he wanted", which often meant that others suffered as a result, both in other teams, as well as within his own.

It also certainly meant that Sonic suffered, because a team that wanted to make a project happen while he and his team were busy with Nights got the short straw.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
Another thing I realized: not only are the comparisons to JK Rowling's weird bullshit somewhat apt, a bunch of those Dark Legion plot points were shockingly identical to Crimes of Grindelwald, which may explain a lot about why I was willing to put up with that movie's bullshit in the theater
 

MrBadger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,552
Holy shit man, I've been checking out this blog for the past 2 hours, and I found this thing

tumblr_nhnlu9zU8y1u4is2oo1_1280.png


That's apparently the skunk that boned Sally

I feel like I've just fallen into a new black hole of morbid curiosity, I've found a new Sonic 06. I had no idea this shit was happening in the 90s!

Gotta wonder if this is basically what led to the sonic fanbase being weird. Seems like shit got weird in the US comics, and those were offical products!

Honestly his name is the funniest thing about him.

"What should we call this skunk character? Stinky? Oh, how about Toxic?"

"GEOFFREY SAINT JOHN."
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,051
Can anybody tell me what Sonic's actual first name was in the Archie comic? I forgot but I think I remember exactly which special it was where they revealed it.

Edit: I misremembered it. Penders apparently at some point revealed Sonic's real first name outside the comic, but it was never revealed in the comic. There was juts some part where Sonic's dad revealed his real middle name, and then nearly revealed his first name when Sonic cut him off.
 

P-Tux7

Member
Mar 11, 2019
1,344
unshackled by the needs to fit into Sega's broader marketing.
Tell me about it. Apparently Ian Flynn isn't allowed to refer to Infinite by name in the IDW comic, at least for the time being. SEGA's really not goofing around.
I said it in another thread. It's pains me to see how I was perfectly capable of drawing better Sonic comics with silly ocs when I was 14 in the 90s than a guy who was doing it professionally, like, for money.

Why him, of all the millions of people willing to draw a good sonic comic.
If you'd like to share, I wanna hear more about this comic of yours. To be a kid again...
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Tell me about it. Apparently Ian Flynn isn't allowed to refer to Infinite by name in the IDW comic, at least for the time being. SEGA's really not goofing around.

If you'd like to share, I wanna hear more about this comic of yours. To be a kid again...

The single greatest problem with the comic right now is that Sonic is being put on character lockdown to the point of only being allowed to be the Mascot with 'Tude he was in the 90s. He's barely allowed to emote anymore, and we all know how stupid "for the first time in his life, Sonic understood the meaning of war" was but at least he was written as a character in those comics.

If Sega's not going let Ian Flynn do the bare minimum of actual writing in this comic then it shouldn't exist.
 
Oct 26, 2017
13,606
Can anybody tell me what Sonic's actual first name was in the Archie comic? I forgot but I think I remember exactly which special it was where they revealed it.

Edit: I misremembered it. Penders apparently at some point revealed Sonic's real first name outside the comic, but it was never revealed in the comic. There was juts some part where Sonic's dad revealed his real middle name, and then nearly revealed his first name when Sonic cut him off.

Maurice IIRC.
 

MechaX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,040
Can anybody tell me what Sonic's actual first name was in the Archie comic? I forgot but I think I remember exactly which special it was where they revealed it.

Edit: I misremembered it. Penders apparently at some point revealed Sonic's real first name outside the comic, but it was never revealed in the comic. There was juts some part where Sonic's dad revealed his real middle name, and then nearly revealed his first name when Sonic cut him off.

*looks up Sonic's real name*

OLGILVIE MAURICE HEDEGHOG

WHAT IN THE CHRIST IS THIS
 

Birdie

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
26,289
Yo I'll defend those Beckett covers till the day I die...

Had no clue they were Pender though 😵
 
Oct 26, 2017
13,606
Yo I'll defend those Beckett covers till the day I die...

Had no clue they were Pender though 😵

Fun fact. Penders only did some back covers, at least of the Pokemon series. The majority of Beckett's covers were by Jeff Amano:

https://www.jeffamano.com/magazine-illustration

Timeless. He had this unique style and quirk that made them so entertaining. I wonder if he did the art of the 2nd gen Pokemon that were goofy as hell that were surely interpretations of the sprites, rather than the actual Sugimori art. :P
 

Village

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,807
Tell me about it. Apparently Ian Flynn isn't allowed to refer to Infinite by name in the IDW comic, at least for the time being. SEGA's really not goofing around.
.
I mean would you
During the dark period we got

Completely inappropriate and sometimes very problematic relationship stuff
Kinda Cult Leader Kinda Racist Knuckles
Abhorrent asshole sonic
Incel Creep Tails
And abusive dictator shadow.

There's a buncha other bad characterizatons, we could get into rouge was written under penders plays into how he feels about his characters and women in general. But that would make this way way too long.

The last one is a " Alternative timeline " ( I say alternitive in quotation marks because its not its basically the same timline as the comics its just penders not understanding who the characters from the games are but that's a longer discussion ) , but that's still reprisenting the brands chaarcters and themes poorly. And I would understand they don't want to go anywhere fucking near that shit

The single greatest problem with the comic right now is that Sonic is being put on character lockdown to the point of only being allowed to be the Mascot with 'Tude he was in the 90s. He's barely allowed to emote anymore, and we all know how stupid "for the first time in his life, Sonic understood the meaning of war" was but at least he was written as a character in those comics.

If Sega's not going let Ian Flynn do the bare minimum of actual writing in this comic then it shouldn't exist.

I sorta agree , there's this thing that happens in issue 6 that sort of represents this pretty well. Not gonna go to deep into it now, but issue six ( the sonic vs shadow issue ) is really really bad and part of that lies in sonic's lack of personality and the comic's unwillingness to challenge him, and I don't mean physically. In issue 7 and 9 he gets bodied and in issue 10 he gets shown up. But like as a character. You don't need like going to therapy or nothing but he should be challanged and forced to think as a person on some interesting level.

That said I think this whole year of comics are going to be just that, or at least I hope. It seems as though the comic is setting up for sonic to see how bad he fucked up and for somoene to tell him about himself. We will see though, they could just ignore what sonic caused tell him " its ok he was trying his best " and then move on because why actually have him be a character
 

Hailinel

Shamed a mod for a tag
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,527
I feel like Penders could serve as an example of a social experiment.

If a comic artist were given the Sonic license to work with, with the same lack of oversight, with similar context (SatAm-level characterizations to start with, etc.), how long would it take that artist to just spiral into doing whatever the fuck they wanted with the characters until people above them realize what they're doing and make them stop?
 

NathanS

Member
Dec 5, 2017
449
Now I am just really curious on what the straw that broke the camel's back was for SEGA noticing and getting involved

Oh man, to be a fly in the room when they're reading shit like Sonic strapping an Emerald to his back and outrunning time

by most accounts they were just rubber stamping stuff without ever looking at the content, but then saw this cover:
latest

And want "WHAT?"
 

TrishaCat

Member
Oct 26, 2017
672
United States
This feels like a thread dedicated to making fun of someone which rubs me the wrong way...
Like yeah, Ken Penders has had an...unfortunate effect on the Sonic comics, but this seems oddly cruel.
 
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