This is the state of diversity in 2019 gaming (Every AAA protagonist’s image, and why diversity matters)

[Marcus Brutalius]

Sorry in advance, but I will put it very bluntly: the biggest gaming markets for traditional video games are
The US - 350m
Europe - 750m
Japan - 125m

I'm excluding China for reasons....but it would make my argument even stronger.

We're talking 1,2 bn people. I know that the black population of the US is roughly 15%. For Europe I assume it's below 5%. Do your math.
Unless there's money to be made, you will not have more black protagonists in games. Black people are a single digit percent of the main gaming markets.
This industry does not follow a moral compass, it's about profit and catering to target audiences.Yes it's sad but true. Do white average people really feel represented by white Hollywood actors? Why does nobody say "I want more average-looking leads in Hollywood movies"? Same thing imo.

 

[The Emperor]

South Asians are the least represented in the industry.

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I know right lol.
The last time I played a game with an Indian character in it was Dreamfall Chapters

 

[Rendering...]

OP says EVERY AAA protagonist's image in the thread title and then posts a small handful of 2019 and maybe-2019 releases. Umm...

 

[Richietto]

A lot more female characters for sure. Still needs more people of color but it's better.

 

[Jorgie]

Why are Days Gone and DMC5 there??? Dem hwite mens.

 

[CopperPuppy]

Isn't Sekiro's protag Japanese?

Edit: also, sorry, to stay on-topic: i agree mostly with this point:


Getting old franchises with new characters that makes no other sense than to shoehorn cultural or even feminine representation is imo even worse than no representation at all. We need new IPs that represent different cultures from the very beginning.

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It literally took a single post before we got the shoehorned diversity argument

one post

 

[Budi]

Why does nobody say "I want more average-looking leads in Hollywood movies"? Same thing imo.

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People do say that though. Especially regarding women, there's much more pressure put on them when it comes to being attractive. Same in games. Men are allowed more diversity than women, in body types too. Personally as non-American, much of American media feels superficial and unreal when everyone looks like they're models. Young and beautiful (unless they're the comedic sidekick). Also often with heavy make up and finely dressed.

Also regarding diversity, people with with disabilities are lacking in games and other media. No matter if it's intellectual or physical disability. I'd say especially people with intellectual disabilities aren't shown as a normal part of families and society. In example people with Down Syndome. And I don't even talk about being a protagonist, but simply about existing in media.

 

[BAD]

OP says EVERY AAA protagonist's image in the thread title and then posts a small handful of 2019 and maybe-2019 releases. Umm...

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Which ones am I missing? If you say Crackdown 3 or Far Cry so help me god.

 

[Enrico25]

Italians are black.

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??

 

[Marcus Brutalius]

Italians are black.

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True Romance reference?

 

[NSESN]

Glad that the number of female protagonists are increasing

 

[Marcus Brutalius]

People do say that though. Especially regarding women, there's much more pressure put on them when it comes to being attractive. Same in games. Men are allowed more diversity than women, in body types too. Personally as non-American, much of American media feels superficial and unreal when everyone looks like they're models. Young and beautiful (unless they're the comedic sidekick). Also often with heavy make up and finely dressed.

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Pop-culture is US-centric. Every country outside the US is a cultural colony to some degree. Some countries more (Germany) some are less (Japan).
As some users have already stated, diversity does not beginn or end with the skin color of the protagonist - it would be nice a for a change to not have an american-POV character in a huge movie or game
Two of the least American movies I can name from the top of my head are Apocalyptico and Passion of Christ....the irony.

I vagly remember this Canadian super-hero team from my youth, will that be a thing in the MCU?

 

[Noob Pilot]

I thought he was from Medici?

I don't know if it was actually said in 3 but that was the impression I got.

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He was raised in Medici but was born Mexican apparently.

 

[Noob Pilot]

Why is it a bad thing when it's "shoehorned to fit an agenda" or "please the ones who are easily offended"?

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Cause it takes away from the original intent. It's like if a franchise character gets replaced by a *insert gender/race of your choice* lead because a vocal group of people demand so?

It would be alright if the story had led up to that point but if it gets shoehorned then it takes away from the story.

An example would be the outrage people got when Ubi decided that everyone gets a baby /oprah.gif in ACO. No one likes it when you take away something without context.

 

[jon bones]

South Asians are the least represented in the industry.

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Kamala Khan best be the main protag in Square's Avengers game!

 

[Nuri]

Sorry in advance, but I will put it very bluntly: the biggest gaming markets for traditional video games are
The US - 350m
Europe - 750m
Japan - 125m

I'm excluding China for reasons....but it would make my argument even stronger.

We're talking 1,2 bn people. I know that the black population of the US is roughly 15%. For Europe I assume it's below 5%. Do your math.
Unless there's money to be made, you will not have more black protagonists in games. Black people are a single digit percent of the main gaming markets.
This industry does not follow a moral compass, it's about profit and catering to target audiences.Yes it's sad but true. Do white average people really feel represented by white Hollywood actors? Why does nobody say "I want more average-looking leads in Hollywood movies"? Same thing imo.

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Yet Black Panther did so well... and somehow good representation was credited for the majority of it.

 

[Budi]

Pop-culture is US-centric. Every country outside the US is a cultural colony to some degree. Some countries more (Germany) some are less (Japan).
As some users have already stated, diversity does not beginn or end with the skin color of the protagonist - it would be nice a for a change to not have an american-POV character in a huge movie or game
Two of the least American movies I can name from the top of my head are Apocalyptico and Passion of Christ....the irony.

I vagly remember this Canadian super-hero team from my youth, will that be a thing in the MCU?

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Sure I agree that it would be great to see more games with Non-US settings and characters (especially when somewhat based on real life). I listed nationalities for the protagonists in the OP bit earlier, very US focused. Clint Eastwood also has Invictus (American actors as leads though) and Letters from Iwo Jima. Could be taken as little bit ironic too, considering his disdain towards "political correctness and the pussy generation" and comments about Trump.

 

[spam musubi]

Cause it takes away from the original intent. It's like if a franchise character gets replaced by a *insert gender/race of your choice* lead because a vocal group of people demand so?

It would be alright if the story had led up to that point but if it gets shoehorned then it takes away from the story.

An example would be the outrage people got when Ubi decided that everyone gets a baby /oprah.gif in ACO. No one likes it when you take away something without context.

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I have no idea what you're referring to with the ACO thing.

But with the rest you're constructing this scenario where you can always dismiss representation by claiming it was shoehorned. In the end the creators do it because they wanted to do it. Creative intent isn't some divine pure source of inspiration and creators are often influenced by external conversations about their work. Either way, the diversity situation is so bad right now that getting "shoehorned" diversity (which I still think is an extremely dubious notion) is still good.

 

[Neoxon]

Has Nintendo ever had a game where you have to play as a black protagonist? I can't think of one.

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Tethu from Ever Oasis is the only one that comes to mind right now, but that game was unfortunately sent to die on the 3DS (late in the system's life).

 

[Deleted member 17210]

Pop-culture is US-centric. Every country outside the US is a cultural colony to some degree. Some countries more (Germany) some are less (Japan).
As some users have already stated, diversity does not beginn or end with the skin color of the protagonist - it would be nice a for a change to not have an american-POV character in a huge movie or game
Two of the least American movies I can name from the top of my head are Apocalyptico and Passion of Christ....the irony.

I vagly remember this Canadian super-hero team from my youth, will that be a thing in the MCU?

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It's really disappointing to see non-US companies constantly making games with American settings and protagonists because of a fear the games won't sell otherwise. There are enough American companies to do that. Let the rest of the world actually represent themselves.

 

[KCsoLucky]

Cause it takes away from the original intent. It's like if a franchise character gets replaced by a *insert gender/race of your choice* lead because a vocal group of people demand so?

It would be alright if the story had led up to that point but if it gets shoehorned then it takes away from the story.

An example would be the outrage people got when Ubi decided that everyone gets a baby /oprah.gif in ACO. No one likes it when you take away something without context.

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How would anyone know what the original intent is? Just because a franchise switches characters doesn't mean the developer is succumbing to a certain group's whims. There is almost no solid argument against changes besides "I would rather the leads stay white" or whatever.

This "established franchise" shit that people keep spouting is one of the most bullshit arguments ever. No one got fucking mad or defensive when Resident Evil kept switching around a bunch of white characters, but it's an issue when switching to a PoC?

Having leads switched for minorities really hurt

Uncharted Lost Legacy
inFamous Second Son/First Light
Gears of War
Watch_Dogs
Resident Evil 5

Oh wait, it didn't at all outside of a specific group of "gamers".

It's really disappointing to see non-US companies constantly making games with American settings and protagonists because of a fear the games won't sell otherwise. There are enough American companies to do that. Let the rest of the world actually represent themselves.

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Eastern Europe and Japanese studios seem to be okay at this, but not as many besides them unfortunately.

 

[Marcus Brutalius]

Yet Black Panther did so well... and somehow good representation was credited for the majority of it.

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Sorry, Black Panther is a whole different story. I could write essays about that movie. Yes, It was very succesful but it doesn't contradict my point.

 

[Morrigan]

Could be better. How about having more non straight character? I dare you name a single AAA with a gay man set protagonist, cause I can only think of AC odyssey

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Even then, Alexios isn't a "set protagonist". He's a choosable protagonist between him and Kassandra, and even then, he can be played as fully straight, or bisexual, by the player.

I can't think of a single AAA game featuring a dedicated gay male protagonist, and it sucks.

 

[Tavernade]

CamDeenie isn't wrong about the plethora of white women vs woc though. There are no shortage of white girls in any media, even if they aren't commonly playable (yet) in video games.

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That's definitely true. If you include women in general though they've been historically underrepresented in games (and movies, maybe not TV and books) so it's still at least a good sign that things are changing to see how many female led games seem to be on the horizon. Obviously it would be better to have more non-white protagonists (of any gender) in general too.

 

[Tavernade]

Even then, Alexios isn't a "set protagonist". He's a choosable protagonist between him and Kassandra, and even then, he can be played as fully straight, or bisexual, by the player.

I can't think of a single AAA game featuring a dedicated gay male protagonist, and it sucks.

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I've been hearing that Ike from Fire Emblem is 'supposedly' gay but it's a Dumbledore situation where it's implied in the text but not outright stated, so I'm not sure it counts.

 

[Nuri]

Sorry, Black Panther is a whole different story. I could write essays about that movie. Yes, It was very succesful but it doesn't contradict my point.

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I'm just saying despite population %'s "Black culture" seems to be very popular in just about everything, music/fashion/art/cinema etc. when tapped into (with care) and I feel games are missing something big.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Cause it takes away from the original intent. It's like if a franchise character gets replaced by a *insert gender/race of your choice* lead because a vocal group of people demand so?

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I see people bringing up this kind of argument a lot, but does this specific scenario actually happens? At least, is it that ubiquitous and far reaching that every time there's a conversation about diversity, there's has to be somebody who brings up "as long as its not forced"? I mean, of course forced anything in narrative is bad.

 

[molnizzle]

Cause it takes away from the original intent. It's like if a franchise character gets replaced by a *insert gender/race of your choice* lead because a vocal group of people demand so?

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"Original intent" isn't some divine thing that comes from the soul. External sources impact every creative decision. If an artist or director decides to make an established character black, guess what? That's their original intent. They chose to do that.

 

[Noob Pilot]

I have no idea what you're referring to with the ACO thing.

But with the rest you're constructing this scenario where you can always dismiss representation by claiming it was shoehorned. In the end the creators do it because they wanted to do it. Creative intent isn't some divine pure source of inspiration and creators are often influenced by external conversations about their work. Either way, the diversity situation is so bad right now that getting "shoehorned" diversity (which I still think is an extremely dubious notion) is still good.

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Your response represents exactly what I dislike about discussions regarding diversity in media. There can never be middle ground. It's either I'm with or against and it just makes you sound ignorant which is ironic because you supposedly are fighting against ignorance.

I'm all for better representation in any media. I'm part of a minority race among the minorities and it was great to see movies like The Raid get so well received. So your accusation annoys the shit out of me.

I support having minorities get roles as a protagonist, or women saving men in distress....but any shoehorned characters and plots are bad in any story. A good plot and character comes with context relevant to the overarching story. Create new stories or create a context for introducing new characters. Don't just change or add stuff "just because".

Regarding ACO's baby, there's already a thread about it. So why don't you go see it yourself and then tell me how everyone loves getting all their plot choices suddenly shoehorned into 1 dictated plot.

 

[Kozy]

Tethu from Ever Oasis is the only one that comes to mind right now, but that game was unfortunately sent to die on the 3DS (late in the system's life).

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Even then that's a game with a character creator, so Tethu/Tethi can have a whole range of skin colours (including blue!) so he/she is not a definite black character. It's good that they are least using a black character in their marketing though.

 

[Dalik]

Even then, Alexios isn't a "set protagonist". He's a choosable protagonist between him and Kassandra, and even then, he can be played as fully straight, or bisexual, by the player.

I can't think of a single AAA game featuring a dedicated gay male protagonist, and it sucks.

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You're right and that makes it even more depressing.

 

[Rosenkrantz]

Not sure why Metro Exodus is in the OP. Even if the hero was a minority he'd most likely looked just as white, Russia is pretty homogeneous country.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

I said gay man

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Well you did actually say "non-straight protagonist" as well; so I thought you were after either.

As for canonically gay male protagonists in AAA games that aren't a custom avatar? Pretty sure there aren't any. It'll probably happen eventually though; especially as people push for it.

We have one (single!) example of a lesbian woman who is a joint protagonist in a high profile AAA game; so we're getting there, slowly but surely!

Granted, the overwhelming dominance of male power fantasies and toxic masculinity throughout the industry and its primary audience is a huge barrier that remains in place; but I do reckon it'll happen eventually.

 

[Noob Pilot]

"Original intent" isn't some divine thing that comes from the soul. External sources impact every creative decision. If an artist or director decides to make an established character black, guess what? That's their original intent. They chose to do that.

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That's kind of my point....it's why I said don't shoehorn plots or characters without context.

For example if Mafia 3 part 2 suddenly had a white protagonist, it's been shoehorned because of the plot that Mafia 3 had.

Did IQs suddenly drop round here?

 

[Noob Pilot]

I see people bringing up this kind of argument a lot, but does this specific scenario actually happens? At least, is it that ubiquitous and far reaching that every time there's a conversation about diversity, there's has to be somebody who brings up "as long as its not forced"? I mean, of course forced anything in narrative is bad.

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It's bad, exactly. We're on the same page here. I brought it up because I just came from a GOW thread with people being unhappy that a story about Kratos does not feature a woman as the main character.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

It's bad, exactly. We're on the same page here. I brought it up because I just came from a GOW thread with people being unhappy that a story about Kratos does not feature a woman as the main character.

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What thread is this? And if the GoW director said "ah I want to make a new GoW with a woman as the main character," would you accuse him of forcing it?

 

[Noob Pilot]

What thread is this? And if the GoW director said "ah I want to make a new GoW with a woman as the main character," would you accuse him of forcing it?

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Something about GOW 2018 representing women badly. Along those lines.

Listen up. There's a difference between taking an existing plot and changing it up versus creating a new plot that runs parallel or will eventually hook up with the main plot.

What are you getting at here? One moment you say forcing narratives is bad and in another suddenly I am some bigot for agreeing with your point?

 

[Deleted member 249]

There's still no meaningful representation for Indian or South Asian people in video games. There's no meaningful representation for most non-white races in games (and Japanese people, although a lot of Japanese games are ambiguous about their characters).

We have a long way to go.

 

[dancingphlower]

Ada Wong should be featured more prominently in the marketing for RE2.

 

[Sameer Sedlar]

Would have been great to have even more races \ ethnicity within those 5 characters .

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That is true, indeed.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Something about GOW 2018 representing women badly. Along those lines.

Listen up. There's a difference between taking an existing plot and changing it up versus creating a new plot that runs parallel or will eventually hook up with the main plot.

What are you getting at here? One moment you say forcing narratives is bad and in another suddenly I am some bigot for agreeing with your point?

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Wait what? I didn't say anything about you being a bigot? That's a weird assumption to make.

And wanting women to be represented better is not the same as wanting them to replace the main character. That's also a weird assumption to make.

It's just that you suddenly bring up a completely duh-worthy statement, you know. Like, of course people don't want forced narrative. For everything. Not just for diversity. When people ask for representation, it goes without saying that they want it to be good. So why bring that up at all? Have you seen a lot of "forced diversity" lately that it's a constant worry for you? Are there people actually advocating for forced narrative? What exactly constitute as "forced", anyway? People are asking you all sorts of question because they want to know what are you getting at.

 

[Kozy]

Not sure why Metro Exodus is in the OP. Even if the hero was a minority he'd most likely looked just as white, Russia is pretty homogeneous country.

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The OP wants to show all AAA protagonists in games that are coming in 2019. Metro Exodus fits that criteria so it should absolutely be in the OP.

 

[Kozy]

Not sure why Metro Exodus is in the OP. Even if the hero was a minority he'd most likely looked just as white, Russia is pretty homogeneous country.

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Edit: Double post, servers seem to be acting up.

 

[Morrigan]

We have one (single!) example of a lesbian woman who is a joint protagonist in a high profile

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There's also Fear Effect (from the early 2000s and the devs have been cowards about calling her gay tho, plus the sketchy fetishizing... but baby steps I guess) and Dishonored: Death of the Outsider that feature lesbians. Dedicated protags too. Still ways to go, but gay men don't even have that much.

I think it stems mostly from a reluctance, or even a complete refusal, to feature men as love interests.

Even Asscreed Odyssey has literally twice as many female love interests as male ones (10 vs 5). It's pathetic, honestly.

 

[molnizzle]

That's kind of my point....it's why I said don't shoehorn plots or characters without context.

For example if Mafia 3 part 2 suddenly had a white protagonist, it's been shoehorned because of the plot that Mafia 3 had.

Did IQs suddenly drop round here?

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"Shoehorning" is literally impossible as long as the creative is making their own choices.

If Mafia 3 part 2 told a story with a white protagonist it wouldn't be shoehorned. It would just be the story the writer/director wanted to tell.

Many racist shitheels make your same argument. It's not valid.

 

[Era of not Yakuza]

Sorry in advance, but I will put it very bluntly: the biggest gaming markets for traditional video games are
The US - 350m
Europe - 750m
Japan - 125m

I'm excluding China for reasons....but it would make my argument even stronger.

We're talking 1,2 bn people. I know that the black population of the US is roughly 15%. For Europe I assume it's below 5%. Do your math.
Unless there's money to be made, you will not have more black protagonists in games. Black people are a single digit percent of the main gaming markets.
This industry does not follow a moral compass, it's about profit and catering to target audiences.Yes it's sad but true. Do white average people really feel represented by white Hollywood actors? Why does nobody say "I want more average-looking leads in Hollywood movies"? Same thing imo.

Click to shrink...

you written this too ?

McCormack was further incensed over a row over the box art for Fable 3."They were going, you can't have a black person on the cover, and you can't have a woman. And you want a black woman. And I was like, yes, I do, because it's about be whatever hero you want. No. It's a white guy. That's just the way it is. We know what sells and that's fucking it. Stop the arguing. I was like, fuck you! That was a huge fight."They said, what's the most unsuccessful Disney film? I was like, I don't know. They went, Princess and the Frog. Work it out. I was like fuck you, man. I hated it.

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[Lundren]

Something about GOW 2018 representing women badly. Along those lines.

Listen up. There's a difference between taking an existing plot and changing it up versus creating a new plot that runs parallel or will eventually hook up with the main plot.

What are you getting at here? One moment you say forcing narratives is bad and in another suddenly I am some bigot for agreeing with your point?

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You're way too heated in this thread. You have stopped making any actual points because you're so upset at imagined slights against you.

Nobody has said that any characters should be race or sex swapped. They are saying that long running franchises can introduce minorities at any time without breaking anything.

 

[Budi]

you written this too ?

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Damn never seen the article before. Had no idea they were pushing diversity so hard, that's great of them. Also yet another example contrary to the popular phrase "forced diversity/policits" or whatever. I'm pretty sure I've never seen an actual example of where diversity has been forced on the devs. Yet I often see these stories about suits forcing status quo and infringing the creative freedom, whenever devs want to have diversity and representation.

 

[SuzanoSho]

I am 30 and have never seen a Azerbaycani protagonist in games.
Why do I not hear you talk about the fact that


Because some people like me are in minority we never discuss for example. (I'm Turkish and Dutch)

Why do aliens in games never attack Turkey?
Why is there no Turkish main protagonist in Triple A game?
Why are Turks mostly the bad guys in games.
Why is there no Triple A game with a Turkish city (Please don't come up with Driv3r)
Why do we have no Turkish anti-terrorist squad in Rainbow?

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I'm gonna talk about the issues that affect me, like most people, first.
You are free to do this.

I'm also gonna support other issues I find worth discussing with actual discussion.
You are free to do this.

What I'm NOT gonna do is come to your thread and reduce those things YOU feel strongly about with that utter bullshit YOU just typed, claiming that you are only talking about it because you're bored or that you should thank your stars that Turkey is in a video game at all...and fuck the "logic" you're using in the current conversation, I'm not surprised that you're too much of a coward to bring to light or discuss your own complaints at all...

 

[SuzanoSho]

you written this too ?

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Is that last quote real? It's not even accurate!...