THIS IS WHY YOU VOTE. ESPN: Trump’s Justice Department on Connecticut Case: “Don’t treat trans athletes as girls

Amevila

Member
Oct 28, 2017
381
I was thinking of weight classes with no gender differences, but I suppose men tend to have the physical advantage on women at the same weight. But is that the case if both are athletes? I know men tend to have much more muscle mass and less body fat, but how is that with professional athletes? Maybe allow women to have a more lenient range on weight per class?
You need weight/hormone level classes if that. An active testosterone dominant endocrine system is a great performance enhancer.
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
13,153
a sunken pirate ship
You seem cagey about a straight forward comment.

A complicated topic like human biology isn't a subject you can reliably expect everyone to have a strong background in, never mind a more esoteric segment like trans athletic performance.

It would seem a discussion forum is a reasonable place to illuminate the science.
It's pretty straightforward.

Even a notion of "chromosomal sex" or "biological sex" is flawed because the things that determine, say, genital configuration are actually a very tiny portion of what we call the sex chromosomes. Trying to ban people on this sort of basis is terrible: even if you accept the (abhorrent) view that trans women aren't really women, and thus shouldn't compete on the same level, your criteria are also going to restrict access to competition for trans women. And the whole thing about athletic competitions is that, especially for more basic tasks like track and field running where it's not a matter of synthesizing skills so much as a question of how fast your legs go, it's pretty much already inherently unfair and privileges people by virtue of their genetic makeup. If you're going to try to get to a point where you think you can actually discriminate on a basis of a fair advantage then you may as well admit that these sorts of skills tests can't actually be made fair in the first place, or at least that discrimination by gender assigned at birth for this is no less arbitrary than any other way you can discriminate.

I will be convinced trans athletes are at a significant advantage in events like these when they start winning these events in greater numbers than cis athletes. That isn't happening, and honestly probably won't be happening any time soon.

Anyway your concern trolling ass (you can read the goddamn studies yourself if you care that much, fuck's sake) can go fuck off somewhere else thanks.
 

Emmaginary

Member
Aug 13, 2019
174
Straubing, Deutschland
Yeah youre right.

Transwomen are generally physically stronger/taller than ciswomen.

--

Gender barriers are going away for many things in life. Why cant sports/competetion be the next target?

Gender neutral sports split by weight class seems like the best solution. Its a win win scenario for everyone.
This makes no sense.
Like, at all.

If your goal is unisex sports competition split by weight only, then why on Earth do you care that trans women are "stronger" (which is quickly not true with HRT) and taller (which, who the fuck cares unless all women are going to be split by height too so that 1.5m women can play basketball and 1.9m women can be jockies competitively)?

As soon as you get your unisex but split by weight class sports, the cis and trans men are going to obliterate both the cis and trans women on the same weight category.

A 70kg woman (cis or trans with HRT) will be at an actual disadvantage next to a 70kg man (cis or trans with HRT).

Your "solution" will have literally made things worse for women, cis and trans alike. Because if you are worried that trans women have a strength advantage over cis women (despite the majority of evidence strongly disagreeing with this) then... Whew! Just wait for the cis women vs cis and trans men competitions.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,012
So you want to completely eliminate women's athletics? By splitting every sport by weight class, you are effectively eliminating women from ever competing in any sport. Look at the difference between men and women when it comes to athletics, its not even close.
Nah, I just wanted to compete with the men. I was talking personal preference.
 

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,226
I think more sports need to be divided by gender as well as weight class, not just one or the other, in general, especially for contact sports.

Beyond that, trans athletes who have gone through proper hormone therapy are already suitable for competition.
 
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ttimebomb

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
64
User banned (permanent): transphobic concern trolling
What are the mods doing in this thread? Its not transphobia to say that it is NOT a simple question whether trans athletes should be able to compete in women's leagues.

I think the question should be asked on a sport by sport basis. In MOST cases its not an issue. For contact sports with lots of injuries I'd probably lean more on the side of not having them compete or asking the athlete to compete in a mens league instead.

Fully expecting to get banned for having a nuanced position here though...
 

Matthew77

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
3,851
Massachusetts
Not this fucking trash fire of a thread topic.

At least the Mods are Banning the worst violators. If the olympics already has working rules in place with standards, there is no reason to debate nuance or concern and tone police.

If there becomes issue with the already in place rules maybe the discussion should be reopened, but for now it should be the standard and if anyone wants to pussyfoot around a standard already in place by the highest profile sporting event in the world, then it’s probably a bit transphobic, sorry it’s the truth.
 

Tabaxi

Member
Nov 18, 2018
1,867
What are the mods doing in this thread? Its not transphobia to say that it is NOT a simple question whether trans athletes should be able to compete in women's leagues.

I think the question should be asked on a sport by sport basis. In MOST cases its not an issue. For contact sports with lots of injuries I'd probably lean more on the side of not having them compete or asking the athlete to compete in a mens league instead.

Fully expecting to get banned for having a nuanced position here though...
Your question was already covered by the third post in this thread, friend:

Irrespective of the question of whether or not trans athletes should be allowed to compete, this is the Trump administration so this decision is entirely motivated by persecution.
This isn't the topic to start barging in with the "well, actually, it's more complicated than that..." comments. It's tone deaf and irrelevant at best, and disingenuous concerned trolling at worst.
 

Amevila

Member
Oct 28, 2017
381
What are the mods doing in this thread? Its not transphobia to say that it is NOT a simple question whether trans athletes should be able to compete in women's leagues.

I think the question should be asked on a sport by sport basis. In MOST cases its not an issue. For contact sports with lots of injuries I'd probably lean more on the side of not having them compete or asking the athlete to compete in a mens league instead.

Fully expecting to get banned for having a nuanced position here though...
If we want nuance we cannot just say 'trans athletes'. Trans women who never went through male puberty exist. Would you also ban them in the sports you are worried about?
 

JChung55

Member
Oct 25, 2017
173
I was thinking of weight classes with no gender differences, but I suppose men tend to have the physical advantage on women at the same weight. But is that the case if both are athletes? I know men tend to have much more muscle mass and less body fat, but how is that with professional athletes? Maybe allow women to have a more lenient range on weight per class?
For a simple comparison, lets look at tennis. Serena Williams is the best tennis player of this generation and possible the greatest women's tennis player of all time. She faced a 600 or so ranked male player and lost quite handily. When it comes to soccer, the US women's team, probably the best women's squad in the world right now, lost to the FC Dallas under 15 squad.

The difference between men and women in elite level athletics is just not close at all. For the sports listed above, it would be one sided and not very entertaining, but no harm no foul. For combat sports however, it could be potentially very dangerous if a man were to face a woman in MMA or boxing.

Lastly, for several sports, I enjoy the women's competition much more. WNBA, women's MMA, and women's hockey are some of my favorite competitions to watch. I would be very disappointed if these were to go away.
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
13,153
a sunken pirate ship
If we want nuance we cannot just say 'trans athletes'. Trans women who never went through male puberty exist. Would you also ban them in the sports you are worried about?
Yes this is either a much less complicated question than the nuance-fetishizers are claiming -- trans women who are competing in women's sports are not demonstrating these supposed advantages if they exist; certainly not the ones who are taking hormone therapies as part of transition -- or it's a far more complicated one -- how do we even determine what a fair advantage is over an unfair one in the first place, given that people are not in control of their genetic makeup and even small differences in genes can produce significant outcomes in their expression.

I mean the big question for me is "why is it the marginalized class who has the supposed unfair advantage that has to be dealt with" but, like, I know the answer to that one too
 

srsly?

Member
Feb 24, 2018
4,137
I hate these threads about trans athletes. Fucking HATE them! Look what we have here: the eight millionth time the Trump administration has swooped in to persecute trans people, and the focus--for also the eight millionth time--has been hijacked by cis posters who would prefer to weigh in on how trans women are really men or closely resemble them.

Every. Fucking. Time. I wish ERA would just ban these threads outright.

I'm sure these folks that are banned for a month are going to come back educated. Perm these assholes, we have a trans community here.
Co-signed

Transwomen are generally physically stronger...than ciswomen.
Receipts
 

Emmaginary

Member
Aug 13, 2019
174
Straubing, Deutschland
What are the mods doing in this thread? Its not transphobia to say that it is NOT a simple question whether trans athletes should be able to compete in women's leagues.

I think the question should be asked on a sport by sport basis. In MOST cases its not an issue. For contact sports with lots of injuries I'd probably lean more on the side of not having them compete or asking the athlete to compete in a mens league instead.

Fully expecting to get banned for having a nuanced position here though...
Let me get this straight...

You're implying that you want trans women to compete against men? Like, even after HRT?

Are you, like, insane, or are you drinking TERF coolaid? Did you even read the thread before your little victim speech, which you wrote whilst advocating either grievous injury to trans women or banning them from certain sports?

Let me break this down for you.

If a trans woman has been on HRT for about a year, at a sufficient dose, then she will have the hormone profile of a cis woman and her musculature will have atrophied and reconfigured to a state comparable to her cis counterparts.

At that point, the trans woman is just going to be, at most, maybe taller on average and have a heavier skeleton. Neither height nor weight are argued to be reasons to ban a cis woman from a sport, even for cis women that are both taller and heavier than a trans woman.

Yet you advocate "protecting" cis women from trans women in contact sports by putting trans women against cis and trans men? Even though, for the reason described in the two previous paragraphs above, this is going to resort in far more grievous damage to trans women than trans women ever have or will cause to cis women.

Honest question here: Do you hate trans women? To make such a callous or ignorant suggestion as the one that trans women play contact sports with cis and trans men does force me to wonder about your intentions.
 
OP
OP
Christian

Christian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,413
It always amazes me that people just gloss over the fact that there are likely hundreds if not thousands of trans athletes competing at some level, but it’s only when those athletes are successful that it becomes a story. And that’s what people point to as proof that genetically male athletes have a great advantage over cis-women. It takes less than 15 seconds of critical thinking to realize this.


I hate these threads about trans athletes. Fucking HATE them! Look what we have here: the eight millionth time the Trump administration has swooped in to persecute trans people, and the focus--for also the eight millionth time--has been hijacked by cis posters who would prefer to weigh in on how trans women are really men or closely resemble them.

Every. Fucking. Time. I wish ERA would just ban these threads outright.


Co-signed


Receipts
I also feel this way. And no hitting ignore thread is not enough. And I am sick of so much of the community not posting anymore. It’s beat.
I apologize to both of you, and everyone else that was upset by this thread. That wasn’t my intention, and though my opinion on most of the posters on Era is pretty low to begin with, I honestly did not expect the response that I got.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,054
People really gotta stop listening to Joe Rogan.

I hate these threads about trans athletes. Fucking HATE them! Look what we have here: the eight millionth time the Trump administration has swooped in to persecute trans people, and the focus--for also the eight millionth time--has been hijacked by cis posters who would prefer to weigh in on how trans women are really men or closely resemble them.

Every. Fucking. Time. I wish ERA would just ban these threads outright.

Counterpoint. I think they're really useful for rooting out members who might get away with under their breath comments that might fly under the radar in other topics. That said, I'm not someone that has to deal with this kind of prejudice on the daily so maybe they are worth banning.
 

Amevila

Member
Oct 28, 2017
381
Yes this is either a much less complicated question than the nuance-fetishizers are claiming -- trans women who are competing in women's sports are not demonstrating these supposed advantages if they exist; certainly not the ones who are taking hormone therapies as part of transition -- or it's a far more complicated one -- how do we even determine what a fair advantage is over an unfair one in the first place, given that people are not in control of their genetic makeup and even small differences in genes can produce significant outcomes in their expression.

I mean the big question for me is "why is it the marginalized class who has the supposed unfair advantage that has to be dealt with" but, like, I know the answer to that one too
Often trans women on HRT end up below the lower female range when it comes to testosterone.

And sports being what they are and testosterone being a performance enhancer it's likely successful cis women atheletes are at the upper end of the female range.

Just how rare conditions that enhance performance are overrepresented in athletes compared to the general population.
 

srsly?

Member
Feb 24, 2018
4,137
People really gotta stop listening to Joe Rogan.




Counterpoint. I think they're really useful for rooting out members who might get away with under their breath comments that might fly under the radar in other topics. That said, I'm not someone that has to deal with this kind of prejudice on the daily so maybe they are worth banning.
What good is this "rooting out", as you put it, if these same posters are allowed back here after a month, free to post the same bad faith bullshit? Either way, this forum continues to be a toxic place for trans folks.
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
13,153
a sunken pirate ship
Often trans women on HRT end up below the lower female range when it comes to testosterone.

And sports being what they are and testosterone being a performance enhancer it's likely successful cis women atheletes are at the upper end of the female range.

Just how rare conditions that enhance performance are overrepresented in athletes compared to the general population.
Yep, and that's the thing -- we don't (usually) check the levels of testosterone that cis women competing have (and when we do it's not without controversy either)! These concern trolls are going to have me breaking out the Pokemon First Movie memes at this point
 

Archaic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
19
Brisbane, Australia
Someone on the first page asked for scientific journal studies. Well, here's an open access article on the issue in question.
Sport and Transgender People: A Systematic Review of the Literature Relating to Sport Participation and Competitive Sport Policies
Key points
  • The majority of transgender people have a negative experience when engaging in competitive sports and sport-related physical activity.
  • There is no direct and consistent research to suggest that transgender female individuals (and transgender male individuals) have an athletic advantage in sport and, therefore, the majority of competitive sport policies are discriminatory against this population.
  • There are several areas of future research required to significantly improve our knowledge of transgender people’s experiences in sport, inform the development of more inclusive sport policies, and, most importantly, enhance the lives of transgender people, both physically and psychosocially.
I can certainly understand why people might as a gut reaction feel that there's some kind of potential for unfairness here. And I can understand why someone who is most certainly not transphobic in general might still have this kind of initial gut reaction. But, as I myself found out a few years ago after I was prompted by two transgender friends to actually go and look at the research on this topic, those initial gut reactions simply aren't supported by any of the available data. For some, it may simply be a manifestation of sub-conscious biases that we might not even realize we still have. Subtle feelings of discomfort that, once we become aware we have them and of our own ignorance, we're able to recognize are wrong and can work to address. Hopefully posting that systematic review article will help give a few people reading this that first push of awareness.

This move by the Trump administration combines two of their favourite things. Discriminating against minority groups who they can demonize, and ignoring any statistics or scientific evidence that they find inconvenient. Just like other examples of Trump admin bigotry, they're able to get away with it because so many people out there simply don't question their own biases and assumptions. The execution is different, but "Trans athletes are here to steal your medals" is really just another play along the lines of "Mexicans are here to steal your jobs". They're positioning a minority group who their base has biases against as an enemy with an unfair advantage, who is taking something that "rightfully" belongs to others. With the implication of course that these others who are forced to "suffer unfair competition" are part of the same group as the person the message is being targeted at. It's disgusting and disgraceful, and we should all be giving our support to the trans community over these bigoted policies.
 

Stryder

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,490
US
Why don't men and women just play on the same teams already? What's the reason for why they're unable to just be in the same league again?

I ask because of males and females played in the same league this wouldn't even be a question for the trans community and they can join without discrimination or misguided ideas.
 

RoninRay

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,345
So I always wonder when this comes up if the other kids care or if it's just a bunch of adults that have nothing better to do .
 

Seik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,324
Québec City
Irrespective of the question of whether or not trans athletes should be allowed to compete, this is the Trump administration so this decision is entirely motivated by persecution.
Yup. It's not like there was some thought process behind that decision. Stripping minorities from their rights is the goal here.

US TransERA must be so fucking tired.
 

Shugga

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,300
Fuck that noise
I hope those ban durations can be reviewed. Alt right accounts coming out of the woodworks for that kind of topic, I'm not sure we need these guys around. My 2 cents.
 

Bing147

Member
Jun 13, 2018
165
Why don't men and women just play on the same teams already? What's the reason for why they're unable to just be in the same league again?

I ask because of males and females played in the same league this wouldn't even be a question for the trans community and they can join without discrimination or misguided ideas.
Because as has already been addressed in this topic, men and women are at significant different levels in most sports and this would lead to the vast majority of women being excluded from athletics as a whole. It's not uncommon for women's national teams to lose against high school boys teams in some sports. Genetically we are not the same. Women have some advantages physically, but traditionally sports haven't been designed around those. (which is a whole other topic)
 

DJGolfClap

Avenger
Apr 28, 2018
525
Vancouver
As a trans woman, I want to thank everyone who is using their head in this topic. These discussions can get downright disheartening, if not demeaning, when the first 5-10 posts are nothing but ignorance.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,572
I'd love to see how these idiots react if a trans man was made to compete on the women's teams. The rule would be killed overnight.
 

mieumieu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
192
The Farplane
I like how the ban hammer acts so quickly.

I was educated on this exact topic three years ago on the old site.

And now I can really feel the immense negative effect of HRT on my muscle strength this past year.

I'd love to see how these idiots react if a trans man was made to compete on the women's teams. The rule would be killed overnight.
it happened before, they just misread the news and then act as nothing happened.
 

Amevila

Member
Oct 28, 2017
381
I'd love to see how these idiots react if a trans man was made to compete on the women's teams. The rule would be killed overnight.
Not quite:

"En route to the state championships in 2017, two of his opponents forfeited.[4] He ended the 2017 season with a 57–0 record, winning the 110 lb weight class in the girls' division.[5]

In 2018, he was the best in the girls' division with a 32-0 record.[6][7]"
 

Mewn

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,352
UK
The attorney saying 'And a male's belief about his gender...' says it all, really. Trans women are women, not men, and this is simply transphobia. 'Physiology' and 'advantages' are just sticks used by concern trolls literally every time this topic comes up to beat the trans community, and I'm glad the mods have taken decisive action in this thread.
 

flkRaven

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,097
This discussion is always volatile and the first page is evidence of that. I guess we should consider why we split athletic events by gender in the first place, and how trans athletes change the math on that (if they do at all). I don't really have a solid knowledge base on the topic to make a judgement here.

Edit: sorry, just read the comment thingy at the bottom. Haven't been around in a while, so wasn't clear the topic was more focused
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,572
Not quite:

"En route to the state championships in 2017, two of his opponents forfeited.[4] He ended the 2017 season with a 57–0 record, winning the 110 lb weight class in the girls' division.[5]

In 2018, he was the best in the girls' division with a 32-0 record.[6][7]"
Well that sucks.

At least it proves making trans people compete on the wrong team is a stupid idea.
 

4cute

Member
Oct 25, 2017
836
I dont understand how fear like this is fueled when I cant really think of a time when a trans woman just dominated some sport because of her "unfair advantages"

This stuff reminds me that there's a severe lack of actual legit concern going on with these topics and is more so an opprotunity for people to be transphobic without much effort. If you really thought of trans women as women then your thoughts would be on what the science and studies say and how society can make sure girls of all kind can play together, rather than bringing up how much stronger average men are to women
 

Astral

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,306
Someone on the first page asked for scientific journal studies. Well, here's an open access article on the issue in question.
Sport and Transgender People: A Systematic Review of the Literature Relating to Sport Participation and Competitive Sport Policies


I can certainly understand why people might as a gut reaction feel that there's some kind of potential for unfairness here. And I can understand why someone who is most certainly not transphobic in general might still have this kind of initial gut reaction. But, as I myself found out a few years ago after I was prompted by two transgender friends to actually go and look at the research on this topic, those initial gut reactions simply aren't supported by any of the available data. For some, it may simply be a manifestation of sub-conscious biases that we might not even realize we still have. Subtle feelings of discomfort that, once we become aware we have them and of our own ignorance, we're able to recognize are wrong and can work to address. Hopefully posting that systematic review article will help give a few people reading this that first push of awareness.

This move by the Trump administration combines two of their favourite things. Discriminating against minority groups who they can demonize, and ignoring any statistics or scientific evidence that they find inconvenient. Just like other examples of Trump admin bigotry, they're able to get away with it because so many people out there simply don't question their own biases and assumptions. The execution is different, but "Trans athletes are here to steal your medals" is really just another play along the lines of "Mexicans are here to steal your jobs". They're positioning a minority group who their base has biases against as an enemy with an unfair advantage, who is taking something that "rightfully" belongs to others. With the implication of course that these others who are forced to "suffer unfair competition" are part of the same group as the person the message is being targeted at. It's disgusting and disgraceful, and we should all be giving our support to the trans community over these bigoted policies.
Thanks for this. I remember this topic being brought up on Neogaf and yeah, the literature suggests that trans women don’t have some biological advantage against cis women. It’s no surprise that Trump is uninformed and he will 100% not bother or care to be informed.
 

MechaMarmaset

Member
Nov 20, 2017
718
I hate these threads about trans athletes. Fucking HATE them! Look what we have here: the eight millionth time the Trump administration has swooped in to persecute trans people, and the focus--for also the eight millionth time--has been hijacked by cis posters who would prefer to weigh in on how trans women are really men or closely resemble them.

Every. Fucking. Time. I wish ERA would just ban these threads outright.


Co-signed


Receipts
I'm actually thankful for the thread. I was unaware of some of the counterpoints to some of the arguments presented in here and I hadn't realized that one of the views I had was transphobic. And now I know why and I've changed my opinion. I guess those counter points are usually drowned out so I'd never seen them before.
 

Amevila

Member
Oct 28, 2017
381
Barr like many transphobes also refers to trans women as biological males.

That is pretty wrong. For one gender identity just seems unchangeable and innate. That hints at some set biological reality causing a trans identity. And identity is a pretty important aspect of a person. So it's a bad take right out of the gate.

On top of that, medical transition (if pursued, no one is forced to have surgery or anything to be valid) changes primary and secondary sex characteristics to match gender identity. So does the endocrine system. It might lead to sterility so for reproduction purposes that is kind of neutral. Athletic performance is also in line with identity.

Treating trans people as their agab might also lead to medical misdiagnosis depending on the stage of medical transition. For example, my personal blood values are well within female ranges. If you took the male range for everything I'd be anemic and my prolactin would be so high they might suspect a brain tumor.

A trans woman can be very close to a cis woman with a hysterectomy when it comes to diagnosis purposes. (Even the estrogen I take is made for women who had a hysterectomy or are in menopause)

Basically, using 'biological man' for a trans woman or 'biological woman' for a trans man is just basic transphobia once you read up on things. I can understand that this might be the initial reaction of many without meaning harm so I wanted to point some things out since many seem unaware.
 

SEBattleship

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
340
Chicago
User Banned (Permanent): Transphobic concern trolling. Previous severe infraction.
The way this forum is handling these posts is absurd. Did we forget that forums are supposed to be about discussion? This is just an echo chamber at this point. Say what you will about GAF at least they were better at promoting actual an actual dialogue.
 

muteKi

Member
Oct 22, 2018
13,153
a sunken pirate ship
The way this forum is handling these posts is absurd. Did we forget that forums are supposed to be about discussion? This is just an echo chamber at this point. Say what you will about GAF at least they were better at promoting actual an actual dialogue.
The fuck are you talking about? The way the Trump administration is handling this issue is wrong, and it's against the scientific consensus on the issue of whether or not trans athletes have advantages over their cis counterparts. There's no counterpoints to be had on that issue. Of course GAF was more willing to tolerate transphobia.
 

FaceHugger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,930
U, S, and A
I'm an idiot when it comes to law, but from reading this there's a chance this lawsuit can be thrown out right? I am not sure how the judges in Connecticut are.