An artist can choose the color of what they draw
a person can't change his own color
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This Nessa (from Pokemon SwSh) whitewashing controversy is kinda blowing up in the art community right now
- Thread starter vestan
- Start date
a person can't change his own color
Are you suggesting that white people should don full-on blackface if they want to cosplay black characters?
Think about this for 10 damn seconds.
"Just asking questions." Christ.
Again, whitewashing does not mean making a character white. I'm so surprised that this is a new concept for many.
Essentially, as stated above, you're basically saying blackface is okay, right?
Do you believe white cosplayers should be able to paint their skin black if they're cosplaying a black character?
That's what you seem to be dancing around with your blue and green paint nonsense.
No, I'm not. I saying that white people could do cosplay of black characters and every hate they get from the unaccurated color skin should be banned because they just wanted to show the love for the character.
Edit: Honestly I can't tell what you're saying. You go from green and blue paint to saying people are getting hate for not painting their skin black?
Which has... what to do with what?
Has anyone mentioned that photography of black people is also quite different and under-understood by the majority of artists and cinematographers?
www.mic.com
This might be a weird stance, but I think this is somewhere on the accidental scale of white-washing because the artist never learned how to draw POC. Like many things in art, there are a lot of techniques and subtleties that you just don't even know to look for until someone points them out. And the easy answer is "I'll do better."
(also, "It's my style" is never a good excuse if you can't draw the subject accurately in the first place)
Keeping ‘Insecure’ lit: HBO cinematographer Ava Berkofsky on properly lighting black faces
The actors on HBO’s Insecure are hotter than you. They’re hotter than your friends, they’re hotter than me and they’re even hotter than the ex the show won’t let you forget about. Co-created by writer and star Issa Rae (along with Larry Wilmore),…
This might be a weird stance, but I think this is somewhere on the accidental scale of white-washing because the artist never learned how to draw POC. Like many things in art, there are a lot of techniques and subtleties that you just don't even know to look for until someone points them out. And the easy answer is "I'll do better."
(also, "It's my style" is never a good excuse if you can't draw the subject accurately in the first place)
You're trying to guide this into cosplay, when fan art is not cosplay. It's an entirely different thing.
And you're right, people shouldn't get hate or ridiculed for cosplaying a character based on their skin color. But have you seen white people getting hate for cosplaying black characters? Because what I have seen has always been the opposite.
Sure. Because that's cosplay. You can't naturally change the color of your skin.
This isn't cosplay. There's literally 0 reason to change the skin hue in a fanart. If anything, doing so shows no respect to the character, the very inverse of what you previously claimed these people are doing.
And honestly, real talk from someone who was in the cosplay game for the better part of a decade, the only time white people got heat for cosplaying a black character is when they did some dumb shit like use bronzer or toner or spray tan to try and make themselves look darker (usually resulting in them looking bright red instead of brown). Black people cosplaying light skinned characters though? There is no end to the shit they get. It's why when characters like Nessa show up, it's a big deal for black cosplayers, and so frustrating when white or asian artists decide to "reclaim" them by making the narrative, "the white version of this character is better".
It happens every time, and I don't understand why you would even attempt to defend it. It's gross behavior.
This thread has a lot of bummy people in it, but it is highlighting some good techniques whilst striking down some real bullshit.
You should go back and read some of DigitalOp's posts. Like this one: https://www.resetera.com/threads/th...mmunity-right-now.123961/page-7#post-21982355Has anyone mentioned that photography of black people is also quite different and under-understood by the majority of artists and cinematographers?
Keeping ‘Insecure’ lit: HBO cinematographer Ava Berkofsky on properly lighting black faces
The actors on HBO’s Insecure are hotter than you. They’re hotter than your friends, they’re hotter than me and they’re even hotter than the ex the show won’t let you forget about. Co-created by writer and star Issa Rae (along with Larry Wilmore),…
This might be a weird stance, but I think this is somewhere on the accidental scale of white-washing because the artist never learned how to draw POC. Like many things in art, there are a lot of techniques and subtleties that you just don't even know to look for until someone points them out. And the easy answer is "I'll do better."
(also, "It's my style" is never a good excuse if you can't draw the subject accurately in the first place)
But as the beginning of the thread discussed, it's not about this one isolated incident. What this did is spark a discussion about all other incidents where PoC characters are made to have a lighter skin in fan art, which keeps happening, deliberately or not.
You decorate a cake with a small palette of fillings. That issue doesn't exist when using a digital art program like Photoshop.
It's not similar. Guess who criticizes black individuals cosplaying as white anime characters. (they start with an r)
True, white washing / colorism is definitely a problem at scale.
You on some serious bullshit. Straight up. You don't even deserve a response since you want to waste peoples time with nonsense but ill humor you anyway.
We talking bout black/dark skinned characters, and you bringing up blue/green..... wtf are you talking about?
You do realize that most ire comes from black cosplayers dressing as the infinite amount of white characters, and corny people criticize them for not being "accurate" or "canon depictions" or "looking weird"
You know why white people usually get criticized for doing black characters? Because some are dumb enough to do blackface instead of sticking with the costume.
Congrats tho, we talking about fucking cosplay instead of the subject at hand.
When you lighten dark characters in fan art, you're putting unconscious bigotry into the world through colorism. That's it, theres no debate on that matter. It aint got shit to do with lighting because there is a way to color black characters that involves lighting and shadow. It does not involve lightening their skin tone in the slightest.
You know why this is blowing up? Because its a trend, I've already established this multiple times. Black characters always get hit with the pasty pink brush over and over again. It bad enough theres so little with actual dark skin tones, we have to look at crowd of nerds who can seem to respect that.
I miss the good o'le day's when you could draw Bowsette as whatever you wanted depending on your taste.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I still do not understand (I really don't get it) why all the answers I have received are unnecessarily aggressive. I think this is a subject that makes people crazy. I apologize to all the people who think I'm trolling. I will not comment on this topic again but I recommend to all you not to get upset with different opinions and take the time to try to understand the point of view of people who, like me, just want to understand the problem.
This "Im so kind, why everyone pick on me" shit is old and tired. Don't expect kindness when your "different opinion" is to disregard the depictions of ethnic characters. You went completely disingenuous by trying to equate it to cosplay.
Pick up a book or google, read about colorism. Maybe you'll understand it more. Since 5+ people can't breakthrough your stone head.
This shit is common sense. "Different opinion" my ass. Especially when you think the opinion counter to yours is "making people crazy"
So shocking that people get upset and hostile when you try to downplay and excuse bigotry.
Also the main reason I know you're full of shit is because you didn't even mention or respond to anything I said regarding cosplay, you just chose to bow out. You aint tryna understand shit.
Congrats on not reading the thread and also being a bad artist.
This is the sort of response and tone that typically gets me to start searching through a user's post history to see if there's a pattern of disingenuous concern-trolling.
If you're going to insist on this "I just don't get it" act after getting this many responses, then whatever.
This is a really interesting discussion, but it seems to be more about the portrayal of characters in darker skin tones in general rather than the original piece, it seems?
This is a 14 page thread at this point so is there an overpaint or a 'shop with a better palette for reference for how this piece should look with corrected skin tone?
Would be nice to catalogue the good advice and examples in this thread.
This is a 14 page thread at this point so is there an overpaint or a 'shop with a better palette for reference for how this piece should look with corrected skin tone?
Would be nice to catalogue the good advice and examples in this thread.
Color Palette....
Uses goddamn pink nowhere close to brown...
Goddamn, Im not even an artist and y'all don't know wtf you're even talking about in regards to "Color Palettes"
jeez, who knew so many styles were somehow incompatible with dark skin. Guess people don't care to learn how to color dark skinned characters since the fandoms only go bonkers for one once every blue moon.
Has anyone mentioned that photography of black people is also quite different and under-understood by the majority of artists and cinematographers?
Keeping ‘Insecure’ lit: HBO cinematographer Ava Berkofsky on properly lighting black faces
The actors on HBO’s Insecure are hotter than you. They’re hotter than your friends, they’re hotter than me and they’re even hotter than the ex the show won’t let you forget about. Co-created by writer and star Issa Rae (along with Larry Wilmore),…
This might be a weird stance, but I think this is somewhere on the accidental scale of white-washing because the artist never learned how to draw POC. Like many things in art, there are a lot of techniques and subtleties that you just don't even know to look for until someone points them out. And the easy answer is "I'll do better."
(also, "It's my style" is never a good excuse if you can't draw the subject accurately in the first place)
I meant to link to this before but only getting around to it now because I'm a lazy fucko. Anyway, here's what I posted back in the thread about the photos that S-E had been using to show off Barrett's character design in the FF7 remake media. It is hardly a masters-level thesis but I think there's content here relevant to this discussion.
100% agreed. As long as people are going to keep coming in here without reading the thread I think some elaboration is worth making.
Like if you did a bunch of fashion photos of Idris Elba for, like, GQ or some shit, and they were lit like the shot used in the OP I think a lot of people would give them crap for whitewashing. Of course it's the fucking lighting. Everyone would agree it's the fucking lighting (maybe some airbrushing too but that's a separate fish-kettle).
It's a problem that goes back to the origination of film and photography.
I think there is a corollary here that the image shown in the OP is a bad representation of Barrett's appearance in the game in terms of skin tone, obviously. The issue isn't as pronounced in motion (because the color becomes clearer, especially as ambient lighting changes) but there's a reason that you almost never actually see professional photography (well, not modeled or posed photography at least) lit like the example in the OP, because it washes out the subject pretty terribly.
Jelly Roll Morton's photos tend to produce an almost Fred Armisen looking fellow, at least images taken after he became a famous performer:
Consider this nightmare of overexposure:
Some later photos appear to do a better job of capturing his actual skin tone. It's much darker than what the previous photos would have you believe:
That looks a lot darker, doesn't it? Some of the earliest photos of Morton give him an appearance of an even darker skin tone.
People who are complaining about the lighting in the shot in the OP aren't as off their rocker as some of you want to believe; the history of lightening dark skin to make it look more appealing runs deep. I think the only issue is that they come away treating the screenshot like a posed photo, and I don't think that's quite accurate to do. There are more shots from the trailer that convey his appearance much more effectively, but I don't blame people reading racism into the screengrab used in the OP.
In this case, compared to the FF7 matters, I think the motivations of colorism are a lot clearer -- and, based on all the discussion here a significant issue running rampant through fanart communities worldwide -- and I also want to thank DigitalOp in compiling these examples for other characters. Trying to search through some of these artists' histories for forum-safe media is an arduous task indeed.
I guess but one of my favorite fan artists does just fine with his style.
Not as many people feeling guilty about beating off to a dude that can't pass the paper bag test. But it's still a frequent occurence.
Too Late. All Thai Comment on Hinghoi Page is Very Angry and Curse to West people who complain about The Pics.
It same happened with JP Artist twitter on OP too.
Color Palette....
Uses goddamn pink nowhere close to brown...
Goddamn, Im not even an artist and y'all don't know wtf you're even talking about in regards to "Color Palettes"
I'm doing this in no way to condone the work of the artist, merely to present a colour palette. But this would be the colour palette for the work in question (or close to):
As someone who has taught art/design for 8 years, I'd say the colour choices are probably most likely ones they use regularly or ones picked from adobe kuler app. They don't have much thought for representing the natural colour of either the hair or skin, or aren't particularly cohesive as a tonal range.
The petty responses from a lot of artists to this topic is so sad. I've seen lot of white Nessa's on instagram lately.
You'd think they would understand better the real issue at hand, and fix stuff, but nope. Gotta double down.
You'd think they would understand better the real issue at hand, and fix stuff, but nope. Gotta double down.
Just making sure the accusation didn't get distorted and get unwarranted backlash.
MerryWeathery is the writer of the webcomics like Internet Explorer Chan and the yandere couple. The person could be sincere about the statement? I don't know. The Twitter seems squeaky clean.
Princess Hinghoi is the person that MerryWeathery paid to draw the comics. She is pretty quiet on Twitter but pretty much a Gamergater/Comicgater on Facebook for a long time. It's frustrating because I have seen her converting a lot of Thai people on FB to these rhetoric.
MerryWeathery is the writer of the webcomics like Internet Explorer Chan and the yandere couple. The person could be sincere about the statement? I don't know. The Twitter seems squeaky clean.
Princess Hinghoi is the person that MerryWeathery paid to draw the comics. She is pretty quiet on Twitter but pretty much a Gamergater/Comicgater on Facebook for a long time. It's frustrating because I have seen her converting a lot of Thai people on FB to these rhetoric.
You know this does higlight part of this that's been bothering me in the OPI'm doing this in no way to condone the work of the artist, merely to present a colour palette. But this would be the colour palette for the work in question (or close to):
As someone who has taught art/design for 8 years, I'd say the colour choices are probably most likely ones they use regularly or ones picked from adobe kuler app. They don't have much thought for representing the natural colour of either the hair or skin, or aren't particularly cohesive as a tonal range.
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While I get their point that this part of the post was trying to make, I don't think you can just compare by moving sliders when that's not how an artists would typically go about picking their colors, simply modifying the sliders. Especially when taken in context of the other work on the artist's twitter. Which as people have pointed out, features plenty of characters with saturated pink skin tones. The original Nessa was done in that style and had a skin tone that was significantly darker than other characters that were drawn by the same artist.
When I look at the fanart, I don't actually see her as white. That being said, she definitely isn't portrayed as dark as she is in the game. At best she looks mixed race, which isn't great.
I don't know why you'd think that. What other artists see first and foremost is people from the outside saying "you're doing it wrong, also you're a bad artist", people "fixing" their art and people calling them racist. When faced with criticism, the first reaction is never to listen and try to understand—it's to rationalize, justify and defend yourself. It's human nature.
Yeah I'm just about done with this, my block button is getting a workout but I don't want to fuck with anyone who thinks it's funny to post 000000 hex code Nessa or laugh about "bait," like trolling makes it less racist and hurtful. There is such a huge lack of empathy among some people that it's scary.
At least there are a bunch of talented artists who are still putting out great fanart of her. One artist even said they'd take criticism under advisement, much to the wails of the "don't bend to the essjaydubyuus" crowd. And hopefully all the tutorials that are getting circulated are helping people who actually want to learn about painting dark skin tones.
User banned (1 week): drive-by trolling in a sensitive topic
How people give a fuck about this stuff will never cease to amaze me
yall think this is bad yall should have seen some of the shit i saw people drawing with black panther characters most of them being artists from Pixiv
like legit people would color Tchalla and Erik the same damn color, i see this shit time and time again when it comes to black characters/darker skinned characters ain't nothing new
like legit people would color Tchalla and Erik the same damn color, i see this shit time and time again when it comes to black characters/darker skinned characters ain't nothing new
I mean shit I'm sorry darker skinned people/black people have a desire not to be lightened in a society that already devalues them for their skintone and enables them to lighten it to seem more attractive. A lot of people are not understanding the deeper context of the shit but instead waving it off when the solution is obviously the very people perpetuating this shit need to learn how to color darker folks skin. That's all there is to it.
It's been really interesting, all the tutorials and advice the better artists are creating to avoid this stuff but it's been a bummer to see the reactions of many artists.
I know it's hard sometimes to get criticized but this stuff matters. Breaking the notions of what beauty is, expanding horizons, recognizing the amazing beauty of human colours in every spectrum and not just the one society has wrongly taught us to look for.
Black and dark skin ppl are sick of being erased. Pretty simple stuff.
