Those who did not like story beat of certain character in TLOU 2, can I ask you something? (Open TLOU 2 spoilers)

[Dust]

To my surprise people were shocked Naughty Dog killed Joel off, even though Joel dying was like the most obvious thing to ever happen in my mind in the sequel. Not the circumstances maybe, but he had to go. I've seen a lot backlash to this specific plot point, even from people I know personally.

My question is, why did you not like the handling of Joel's death? If my options are not enough, please state your own.

I did not have issues with it, especially from Abby's perspective. I thought he would have been killed later from I started the game, but that's it.

 

[bing]

1.) I felt it happened much too suddenly in the story
2.) I felt misled by the marketing, which was intentionally engineered to make it seem like Joel would live throughout the game
3.) I felt like it didn't make sense knowing Joel's character -- he immediately let his guard down amongst a group of strangers he had never met leading to his death, something which he would've never done in the first game
Edit: Responding to comments on my third point:

I think that kind of plays into my first point. There should've been more character development explaining how he became so trusting over the years imo.

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[Anya7890]

I was fine with Joel's death & the manner of it, but I was definitely shocked at how early he went out! Like I thought he would atleast make it to Seattle.

 

[Sprat]

I thought it was a bit cheap and didn't really have much impact with him but getting much screen time / development.

That and the straight up false advertising in trailers

 

[KillLaCam]

He should have died but there way it happened was so stupid and out of character

 

[Sprat]

3.) I felt like it didn't make sense knowing Joel's character -- he immediately let his guard down amongst a group of strangers he had never met leading to his death, something which he would've never done in the first game

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This too

 

[PucePikmin]

I had issues with other aspects of the story, but not Joel's death. It made sense within the overall narrative.

That said, I understand if people were upset -- he was the star of the first game, and the marketing made it seem like he would still be a featured player. If Mario was stomped dead by Bowser in the first half-hour of the next Mario game, I expect people would be upset about that too.

 

[Rosebud]

I think most people would be fine with his death if it was saving Ellie or something heroic.

I'm glad they didn't do this tbh.

I had issues with other aspects of the story, but not Joel's death. It made sense within the overall narrative.

That said, I understand if people were upset -- he was the star of the first game, and the marketing made it seem like he would still be a featured player. If Mario was stomped dead by Bowser in the first half-hour of the next Mario game, I expect people would be upset about that too.

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Every gameplay video had Ellie or Abby. People assumed Joel would be a companion.

 

[the-pi-guy]

1.) I felt it happened much too suddenly in the story
2.) I felt misled by the marketing, which was intentionally engineered to make it seem like Joel would live throughout the game
3.) I felt like it didn't make sense knowing Joel's character -- he immediately let his guard down amongst a group of strangers he had never met leading to his death, something which he would've never done in the first game

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2.) They misled with the first game too.

Spoiler

they said Joel was the only playable character, which wasn't the case.

3.) Did he though? He got swarmed by zombies and his life got saved by these people and he's still noticeably stressed out by the group of people. It's Tommy who urges him to be friendly.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

I thought it was amazing. He got what he deserved in the most unexpected, but appropriate way possible.

 

[Devil]

1.) I felt it happened much too suddenly in the story
2.) I felt misled by the marketing, which was intentionally engineered to make it seem like Joel would live throughout the game
3.) I felt like it didn't make sense knowing Joel's character -- he immediately let his guard down amongst a group of strangers he had never met leading to his death, something which he would've never done in the first game

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1 and 2 kinda had to happen together if they don't want to spoil it... Would have been boring if we all could have guessed what's happening through marketing.

I will never get 3. This is not the same Joel from the beginning l
of TLOU1 anymore. Throughout his Journey with Ellie he already changed. But now, he has lived for some years in relative safety, almost a normal life, together with loved ones. Of course he is less of a grumpy isolating, mistrusting dude than before. The game made it obvious imo.

Also, the situation was special. They had a common cause for a second. And Tommy started the conversation and gave away what killed Joel in the end.

 

[WizdogC]

3.) I felt like it didn't make sense knowing Joel's character -- he immediately let his guard down amongst a group of strangers he had never met leading to his death, something which he would've never done in the first game

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The writers have addressed this. 4 years in a settlement softened Joel from the man he used to be and that time changed him. This is evident from Ellie's walk through his house where you see Joel opening up and tinkering with guitars, carving wood statues, and reading books. He's a different person now.

Personally, the only part I didn't like was how brutal and violent his death was. I would have been 100% okay if Abby just killed him quick like we did with her father in Part 1. Since Joel didn't torture and brutalize Abby's father. That's the only thing I'd have changed, I don't mind that he died or that he died so soon.

 

[SimpleNothing]

.

 

[Kain-Nosgoth]

i wanted him to die in the first place so i was cool with it (never liked him)

but then all the story still revolved around him and i didn't like it, it ended making ellie even worse than him (i know that's the point, knowing how to let go and so on, but meh, thanks god abby was there cause man ellie's revenge plot was so boring)

 

[Kaelan]

The writers have addressed this. 4 years in a settlement softened Joel from the man he used to be and that time changed him. This is evident from Ellie's walk through his house where you see Joel opening up and tinkering with guitars, carving wood statues, and reading books. He's a different person now.

Personally, the only part I didn't like was how brutal and violent his death was. I would have been 100% okay if Abby just killed him quick like we did with her father in Part 1. Since Joel didn't torture and brutalize Abby's father. That's the only thing I'd have changed, I don't mind that he died or that he died so soon.

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Yeah this part was always clear to me. I thought the game did a goodjob explaining how Joel got comfortable, "let his guard down", etc

 

[thomas_cale]

I was fine with it honestly, shit happens in life, why shouldnt it happen in video games.

Honestly imo games dont go far enough with that thought

 

[Betty]

I mean I did 'like' it in the terms of the story but it's not hard to understand why others don't. No one expected that so suddenly and so soon, especially as the game went out of it's way to suggest he teams up with Ellie on her journey later in the trailers.

Masterful deception by Naughty Dog, and while I loved Joel and wished he'd lived the scene and the story of the game are flawless.

Also I've never seen a piece of media do that to such an integral character so soon in in the franchise except for maybe Game of Thrones, but even then this was more risky because it's only the first sequel. It would be like killing Iron Man permanently at the start of Age of Ultron.

 

[Cerulean_skylark]

He should have died but there way it happened was so stupid and out of character

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I'll never understand this. what was his character that would prevent him from dying?

 

[bing]

1 and 2 kinda had to happen together if they don't want to spoil it... Would have been boring if we all could have guessed what's happening through marketing.

I will never get 3. This is not the same Joel from the beginning lf TLOU1 anymore. Throughout his Journey with Ellie he already changed. But now, he has lived for some years in relative safety, almost a normal life, together with loved ones. Of course he is less of an grumpy isolating, mistrusting dude than before. The game made it obvious imo.

Also, the situation was special. They had a common cause for a second. And Tommy started the conversation and gave away what killed Joel in the end.

Click to shrink...

The writers have addressed this. 4 years in a settlement softened Joel from the man he used to be and that time changed him. This is evident from Ellie's walk through his house where you see Joel opening up and tinkering with guitars, carving wood statues, and reading books. He's a different person now.

Personally, the only part I didn't like was how brutal and violent his death was. I would have been 100% okay if Abby just killed him quick like we did with her father in Part 1. Since Joel didn't torture and brutalize Abby's father. That's the only thing I'd have changed, I don't mind that he died or that he died so soon.

Click to shrink...

I think that kind of plays into my first point. There should've been more character development explaining how he became so trusting over the years imo.

 

[SneakersSO]

Every gameplay video had Ellie or Abby. People assumed Joel would be a companion.

Click to shrink...

They specifically doctored cutscenes in pre-release trailers to show Joel swapped with other alternate timelines of himself or swapped with a completely different character to give the impression he would be there the whole game.

They absolutely were dishonest in the marketing, although it was in the interest of keeping his fate a secret

 

[Heshinsi]

2.) I felt misled by the marketing, which was intentionally engineered to make it seem like Joel would live throughout the game

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From the very first trailer people were speculating that Joel was dead and was the cause for Ellie going on the warpath.

 

[Trey]

It's fine, and narratively makes sense with respect to his character arc. But it was used as a blunt instrument to enrage to player, rather than layered cohesively into the story in a way that makes sense.

Its only use is to trick the player, and it's not done well, even if it makes sense and "works" in a vacuum.

 

[Deleted member 49319]

Hasn't that third point already been discussed to death.

 

[FeD]

Joel's death was wonderfully handled. Having the last time the player controls him being literally riding off with him into the sunset was bittersweet.

 

[The Lord of Cereal]

It made sense within the story that it had to happen to move the plot forward (and was incredibly obvious from the marketing), but I feel that the death was extremely excessive and also just felt incredibly contrived in it's execution.

That being said, when it happened my only thought was "eh" and I just didn't care, so I wouldn't say I didn't like it

 

[crimsonECHIDNA]

Personally, the only part I didn't like was how brutal and violent his death was. I would have been 100% okay if Abby just killed him quick like we did with her father in Part 1. Since Joel didn't torture and brutalize Abby's father. That's the only thing I'd have changed, I don't mind that he died or that he died so soon.

Click to shrink...

On the flip side that's 5 years of bottled up anger and resentment that was left fostering from Abby. Why would she make his death quick and painless?

 

[KOfLegend]

I had issues with other aspects of the story, but not Joel's death. It made sense within the overall narrative.

That said, I understand if people were upset -- he was the star of the first game, and the marketing made it seem like he would still be a featured player. If Mario was stomped dead by Bowser in the first half-hour of the next Mario game, I expect people would be upset about that too.

Click to shrink...

Same here. Had issues with the story, but this definitely wasn't one of them. Loved the way he went out (and he absolutely had it coming).

 

[Bioshocker]

His death was too sudden but it wasn't my main complaint with the game. There were many other issues, all put together made it a schizophrenic experience that almost fell apart completely.

 

[ThisThingIsUseful]

1.) I felt it happened much too suddenly in the story
2.) I felt misled by the marketing, which was intentionally engineered to make it seem like Joel would live throughout the game
3.) I felt like it didn't make sense knowing Joel's character -- he immediately let his guard down amongst a group of strangers he had never met leading to his death, something which he would've never done in the first game

Click to shrink...

He's not Joel from the first game. He's Joel after settling. His brother has this entire town that has grown and men and women who trust one another, which we saw in the first game. It stands to reason Joel would be more trusting since he's not out being a renegade and killing innocents as was implied in the first game.

Having scenes that showed him soften wouldn't have been material to the story for TLOU2.

 

[ThisThingIsUseful]

From the very first trailer people were speculating that Joel was dead and was the cause for Ellie going on the warpath.

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Man, I remember that. There was much speculation that it seemed like he was there in spirit as a guide to her, asking her what she's doing, and not actually physically part of that world.

 

[Rosebud]

They specifically doctored cutscenes in pre-release trailers to show Joel swapped with other alternate timelines of himself or swapped with a completely different character to give the impression he would be there the whole game.

They absolutely were dishonest in the marketing, although it was in the interest of keeping his fate a secret

Click to shrink...

Yes, I'm just saying that they never showed Joel gameplay, just cutscenes. And he was kinda there for the whole game through flashbacks.

After the very first trailer (the one with Ellie singing) many people theorized that Joel was dead and she was having a vision.

 

[Skeeter49]

People act like he spent the night there drinking and telling them all his secrets.

Unless people's view of "acting friendly" is not immediately killing them, or trying to take them hostage, not sure what people expected. Joel in TLOU1 lowered his guard anyway, against Marlene, a member of the fireflies who at the time they were against, and with Henry and Sam (Granted Joel tried to kill Henry several times, there were multiple instances where he let his guard down with him as well).

 

[Kadey]

I completely understand why he died. I thought maybe he would die much later. The trailers made it seem like Dina is the one who dies and Ellie goes on a revenge tour. Story wise everything turned out fine. I am content with the direction they took. Poor Jesse though.

 

[Chadtwo]

I was fine with it but the NakeyJakey vid makes an interesting point that having Joel die that early was a bold choice since doing that puts the onus on ND to craft a story equally engaging to that of Ellie and Joel with almost entirely new characters without any further exploration, except through flashbacks here and there, of Ellie and Joel's dynamic

 

[Jawmuncher]

Joel dying was one of the aspects I liked most. As the game shows he might've been a good guy even if a bit over protective of Ellie, but his choices has consequences and in such situations there isn't always a way your favorite character can win or survive. Sometimes they just get taken out like anyone else.

Any story always has its own elements of ploy Armor, but it's refreshing when it's not there even if only for a moment.

 

[Papercuts]

I don't mind that Joel died, but it bothered me that Ellie happened to find the exact house while they were mid-torture. She then gets to witness it right in front of her, by a bunch of people who aren't covering their identity at all, who then let the sole witness who literally screamed out "I will fucking kill you" survive. It was like to amp up the emotions of everything happening they had to have her present to see him die, but they didn't have a clean way to have her get out of the situation.

I know they return to show it more from Abby's side, but I still find it extremely hard to buy that the group + her would let Ellie live in this scenario.

 

[My Blue Heaven]

i mean i like the thrust of the idea of random brutality and not owing the player anything with regards to joel....but it's not executed very well and is mostly in line with the naughty dog style of being an ultimately weightless piece of entertainment despite all the theatrics to tell you it's a serious game (tm). i don't worship the first game either so perhaps i'm not the right person to ask lol.

 

[take_marsh]

I understand people being upset over a number of things, like they really enjoyed Joel as a character a lot and wanted him to live. Or they felt that his death should've been placed later in the game (and possibly remove the Abby sections almost completely from the game?) as to not make us sympathize as much with Abby?

His death was the catalyst for every event of the game. The game is still so much about him, so his death being early made sense. Funny enough, he pretty much got to die a second time at the very end.

 

[astro]

3.) I felt like it didn't make sense knowing Joel's character -- he immediately let his guard down amongst a group of strangers he had never met leading to his death, something which he would've never done in the first game

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We were not in the first game any more though?

People grow, people let their guard down. The story literally showed Joel doing both of these things before he died.

 

[Cerulean_skylark]

His death was too sudden but it wasn't my main complaint with the game. There were many other issues, all put together made it a schizophrenic experience that almost fell apart completely.

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this is probably not a great description

 

[Rush_Khan]

I think the character died at the right time. It was the obvious plot twist before release (I managed to not spoil it but it was obvious). Honestly, I thought it would be more brutal, like his head decapitated with a chainsaw or something. Given I went into the sequel expecting it to happen, it didn't have as strong effect on me as I would've hoped.

 

[Anya7890]

I will never get 3. This is not the same Joel from the beginning lf TLOU1 anymore. Throughout his Journey with Ellie he already changed. But now, he has lived for some years in relative safety, almost a normal life, together with loved ones. Of course he is less of an grumpy isolating, mistrusting dude than before. The game made it obvious imo.

Click to shrink...

Thank you! I will never get people saying doesn't act he did for the majority of part 1, when he's Not supposed to be the same character because of this thing called character development & an arc.... which is shown in spring of part 1, not just joel, but Ellie as well.

 

[Servbot24]

They specifically doctored cutscenes in pre-release trailers to show Joel swapped with other alternate timelines of himself or swapped with a completely different character to give the impression he would be there the whole game.

They absolutely were dishonest in the marketing, although it was in the interest of keeping his fate a secret

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Yeah and it was awesome.

Gamers complaining about "lying" in the marketing are really annoying and boring IMHO.

 

[AnimeJesus]

I was kinda shocked about his death since it was honestly unexpected and a complete suprise for me. On top of that I'm not used to seeing main characters brutally killed off like that, so it was a pretty effective scene.

Didnt vote though since complaining about the direction a dev takes with their story seems kinda silly.

 

[LinguisticGoblin]

It'd been several years since I played 1 and the game had done nothing to get me reinvested in either his character or his relationship with Ellie by that point so I didn't really feel anything for either of them during it. I think the game needed a longer lead-in or to have restructured how it handles revealing her memories of their gradual falling out/beginning of them reconnecting to have gotten me to feel moved by his death scene - the later flashbacks do sort of retroactively make it hit a bit harder, but by that point I'm not going to ever really feel the full impact because it's already over with. I still don't really care he's dead despite caring a lot about him back in the day with 1.

I also pretty much guessed exactly what was up with Abby's group before it was even over because there's a very short list for who they could possibly be without being completely new characters unrelated to anything in 1. Sucked any mystery right out of it when I was sitting there going "Well, she's a Firefly getting revenge for her friends or family for sure." and was a major contributing factor to why I found Ellie's part of the game so boring narratively.

I realise this all worked fine for plenty of people and that it'd necessitate a major reworking of the game to make it work for me, I'm just laying out why I think TLOU 2 left me feeling indifferent on Joel's death.

 

[WizdogC]

On the flip side that's 5 years of bottled up anger and resentment that was left fostering from Abby. Why would she make his death quick and painless?

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I'm not saying she personally has to. If she had made it quick and painless it would have made me feel more sympathetic toward her. As things stand my feelings about her and Ellie are conflicted, which I actually like in that it's not a clear cut answer as to who's in the right or not. I think they're both in the right and the wrong at the same time.

To make my decision easier/"make myself feel better" it would have been nice if she hadn't tortured him lol. That's all.

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

I feel really lucky to have been in the few that were Media Blackouted

That moment dropped my jaw. Didn't expect that at all, but when you realize in the scope of things it did HAVE to happen. And in that way.

Thematically and story wise, its masterful the way they did it and handled it tbh.

 

[GTAce]

I "didn't like" he died because it made me sad. 8(

 

[Tribes of Trusty]

I didn't like Joel being killed as in I don't enjoy a character I like being killed but I understandwhat they were going with with their story.

It's the eternal debate of fiction killing off popular characters.

 

[Plasma]

I didn't mind Joel's death or how it was handled, I did have an issue playing as his killer though.